BS: Thoughts About Suicide

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 06:39 AM

Paul, regardless of whether they are spiritually aware or not, so many of the experiences that people have shared in this thread demonstrate that people cared for {meaning loved, and still love} and tried to provide emotional support {and other types of support} to another person who took his or her life anyway.

People may respond to another person's cries for help, but the person crying may not respond to others' offers of help. Or {and this may be even more difficult}the person who succeeds in committing suicide may not have even presented to those close to him or her {or to the rest of the world} that he or she was that depressed or was even any more depressed than folks who do not try to or who do not succeed in committing suicide}.

To call people who are left behind selfish and self-asborbed because they {we} admit our pain, is to add to our pain.

I repeat what I've said before here-it's my hope that threads like this and Mudcat's "Depression/Anxiety" thread whose link I posted in my pain or others' pain.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 06:45 AM

Okay-Freudian's [mother's ?] slip is showing in the last line of my last post...

What I meant to write was:

"I repeat what I've said before here-it's my hope that threads like this and Mudcat's "Depression/Anxiety" thread whose link I posted in my first comment in this thread help to lessen other's pain as they have helped me to lessen my own pain."

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 07:47 AM

I can see now that it was during those periods in my life when I was most self-absorbed, so caught up in my own perceived problems and grievances that I could barely see past the end of my own nose that I was also most depressed, most pre-occupied with the ifs and hows and whens of ending it all.   And I agree with Divis - suicide is ultimately a selfish act. It's an act of violence not only against oneself, but against everyone who cared about the person. And often it is carried out with the specific intention of damaging those left behind as much as possible.

Who did my heart go out to more -- the young man who shot himself right in front of his girlfriend, or his girlfriend, his mother, father and siblings? Sorry bud -- that young man was dead of his own volition. None of my "caring" or "empathy" would have brought him back. Sure, I grieved for him. In fact I learned a LOT from him (most of which I never really wanted to know) -- but my sympathy and empathy was better spent on those who loved him, the ones his violence had wounded so badly. In effect, he sentenced them all to a lifetime of pain and grief, just as he'd intended.

According to StatsCan, suicide is the second highest cause of death among Canadian males under 30, and aboriginal people are many times more likely to take their own lives than any other group. Yes, there's much that can and is being done to prevent suicide, to improve living conditions and general health of these and other "at risk" populations.

But after the fact? Energy and empathy is much better spent helping the living, imo.

Azizi, thanks for the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:12 AM

PS - re guns and suicide - I remember that young man sitting at my kitchen table a week before he died, having a beer with my husband. It was late, and my husband and I were arguing about guns for the umpteenth time. Hubby had been planning to buy one for over a year, I was too afraid to allow one around my kids or in my home.

We had no good reason for owning a gun imo - we weren't hunters or farmers or cops after all. In fact, the only reason Hubby'd ever come up with for buying a gun was "for protection against people with homicidal tendencies". And here I'd always insisted that "protection against people with homicidal tendencies" was the best reason ever NOT to allow a gun in the house!

So on and on it went, me insisting over and over again that violence, injury and death were a LOT more likely to happen if there was a gun lying around, and hubby ignoring or belittling my concerns.

But the point of this story is, that young neighbour actually agreed with me that night! Yes, violence is much more likely with a gun in the house, he said. In fact, he was the only one of my husband's friends who had ever "taken my side" about guns! I was so surprised! Even thanked him, quietly, for his support before he left that night.

The day he died he'd been at my door early in the morning, looking for Hubby, who wasn't there. He sat down at the table for a couple minutes, looking like he wanted something else - maybe just to talk? But I was sick myself that day, and my baby twins had had the flu for a week -- I didn't have the time or the energy that day to even make him a coffee, told him he'd best leave if he didn't want to get the flu too.

When I found out what he'd done later that day, I was just wracked with guilt. Oh, if I'd only spent a bit of time with him, sick as a dog or not, I might have been able to help! After what he'd said about guns just a few days before, I might have been able to talk some sense into him. :-(

But eventually, I just had to let all that guilt go. That guilt wasn't helping anyone - him, his family, or myself. Unfortunately, we cannot always be our brother's keeper.   :-(

Thanks for listening,

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: ranger1
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:17 AM

The winter after I graduated from college I was living with my grandparents. One morning, my grandmother and I found my grandfather dead in her sewing room. He'd slit his wrists with the bread knife the night before, after I had gone to bed. It took me a long time to forgive him for what he'd done, and the only reason I think I came to terms with it was because he was terminally ill and he'd been on Prednisone, which may cause depression in some people (a little fact that the doctor failed to mention, by the way). He never left us a note, either. I can understand why he did it, but I don't have to like it or the method he used.

Spiritually how it all fits in, I haven't quite figured out yet. I like to think that we get a chance at a do-over until we get it right, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 05:55 PM

An old acquaintance died this morning - very old, would have been 100 in a few weeks - I hadn't heard, but she had fallen last week, so I guessed she had "took sick" in complications from the fall, and was saddened; but now I've found out she actually committed suicide, and suddenly feel much better. Now I am wondering if that is an appropriate reaction... nobody close to me has killed themselves, is this worse or better for the adult children, I wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 06:21 PM

I have no idea, but keep in mind her children are likely in their 70s or 80s.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 08:30 PM

Oops that was me again, I keep forgetting I have no cookies at work. Yes, her kids are grown and grandparents. Still.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 09:21 PM

At "almost 100 years old" I can almost understand why she took her own life. She must have seen friend after friend depart this life until she had few or no peers left, and may have decided she just wouldn't put up with it any longer.

My father was 93 when he died and he often mentioned that there is no one left who had known him all his life.

He was fortunate though, at age 89 he remarried, to a 76 year old woman and his last four years were happy ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 09:38 PM

As someone who volunteers to work with people who might well be "on the edge," I wonder why she felt that there was no one for her to turn to, to talk with.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 09:45 PM

An amazing thread... I tend to read suddenly refreshed threads as if I had never seen them, and generally do not skip to the end, as I want to get a feeling for the entire flow of the discussion.

There are obviously relevant links between meditating on suicide itself ....and its causes & effects on others.... and ideas about death itself and what might come 'after'.
    Since I participated in this thread 9 years ago, I have personally known 2 people who have chosen their own time to die.... both had incurable medical problems, and I was relieved that they were able to choose. The elderly woman Mrrzy knew evidently still had her senses and options working, and though the death of any good person is a sadness, I have felt for many years that their opinion should be the deciding one about when.
   I do, of course, hope that some intervention can be found for those who are merely depressed in some way. All too many could be helped if they would only ask......

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:21 PM

They have a FB page. They do good work.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 11:52 PM

I gather that she just didn't want to do the rehab and the pain and screw it, if that was where she was, she wasn't going to be there. I can't argue with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:02 AM

This is a topic in which I have, as some will know, some knowledge & experience. Seven years ago my beloved first wife committed suicide as a result of degenerative illness which she determined, IMO rationally and courageously, had caused her to degenerate as far as she found tolerable. I went public about this, & had my Warholian 15 minutes as result. If interested, google ·grosvenor myer suicide· for various press letters, reports, feature, press & tv interviews &c.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:42 AM

Wasn't it Dr Johnson who said that imminence of death is a salutary experience as it concentrates the mind so?

I have no opinion based contribution to this thread but have been involved in the legal mess that followed an assisted suicide by a GP, both whilst the police were seeing if CPS felt there was a case to answer and later in the GMC fitness to practice hearing. (UK.)

This led to being asked to sit on a think tank following attempts by MPs to bring this issue up. Michael's experience, being one that became public, was a case we used to look at the present legal, possible future legal and more importantly, support infrastructure for people in their situation and resolve. There are of course others, but his stuck in my mind as I knew of his name if nothing else.

The one area we did manage to tighten though was the thorny issue of DNACPR (do not resuscitate.) In that respect, the wishes of someone who wishes to die are legally respected by healthcare professionals, and the latest prescription form has far more safeguards to consider than before.

I went into such debate with an open mind and left it having formed no overall view to support or deny encouragement of suicide. I just know that it is a one way decision and not everybody has full mental capacity when making that decision, which means you have to ensure safeguards for those people don't fetter the wishes of people making decisions by a more rational thought process.

In terms of suicide overall, there is a hangover from superstitious times regarding the legality and therefore social stigma, especially for those left behind. So whilst I cannot form a view concerning something I don't understand, I would certainly encourage debate and removing the social taboos surrounding it.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:08 AM

I should in fairness say that those I work with are usually younger veterans who suffer from various post-combat reactions,usually depression that lead to alcohol and drug abuse. They are screaming instead their own heads for help or some way out and unfortunately they all too often find an exit.

I am not talking about those facing physical problems, and no, I do not think suicide is a 'weakness' no matter who does it.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:46 PM

It makes one furiously to think, doesn't it.