BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Jan 06 - 07:19 AM

Interesting John, so even the term RCD was used differently in the US. An RCD as given in the Wikipedia link I gave in the UK and elswhere is a Residual Current Device and it would appear to now be understood to mean that in the US. Abbreviations can be dodgy things can't they!

In my UK memory (b. 1960), plugs have always been 3 pin but I do remember a few of the round pin 15A (I think) ones. Our "standard" plug is one of these 13A fused plugs. While this plug is rated at 13A, the internal repacable cartrige fuse may 13A, 5A or 3A as appropriate for the device it supplies. One should always replace a fuse with the same rating.

A common method of wiring sockets in the UK is a ring main where the twin and earth cable goes from the consumer unit to each socket in turn and then back to the consumer unit. This circuit is protected by a fuse or circuit breaker (MCB). Consumer units may be "split load" with some circuits protected by a common RCD and others, eg. lighting (you don't want your house plunged into darkness because of an earth fault on a socket) may be unprotected.

RCD protection can be provided at other levels, eg. a circut could be protected by an RCBO, a device that combines the overload protection of an MCB with RCD protection, RCD sockets are available as are RDC plugs.

I think all wiring in the UK should conform to the (current at the time of doing the job) IEE regulations. A "guide" can be found here

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: gnu
Date: 14 Jan 06 - 06:32 AM

John... your prices may be quite correct. As I get older, I sometimes forget things. Like the fact the I bought a bunch of them on sale for $6 each about ten years ago. Yes, you can always wire "downstream". However, when your house is already wired, it's easier to replace them individually. GFCI breakers are not required in any juridiction I know of... I just like them.

Here's a good one for ya! I am an Engineer. I have managed millions of dollars worth of constrction. As part of the services my company provided, I was in the building inspection business for seven years, including home inspections. When I moved into my present house, a 45 year old bungalow, I made a list of electrical upgrades and went to see an old buddy. He had just retired and his son had taken over the business. Sonny arrived a couple of days later and went to work, as did I, fully confident that I would get a top notch job. When complete, I looked over the work in the house and was pleased.

About six months later, I blew a fuse in the garage disconnect. When I opened the box, I nearly **** myself. Sonny had wired the new exterior GFCI to the line lugs in the box. The next time I saw his old man, I told him about it. He said, "Well, it's hard to find good help these days." Always was a joker. But, you just know what happened when he next talked to sonny. Sonny never did contact me to find out why I wasn't throwing any more business his way!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Jan 06 - 02:10 AM

Way back in historical times, in the US, a variety of wiring systems were used, but quite generally the earliest of systems consisted of two wires - a "goesinto" wire and a "goesouta" wire. Wiring in homes and elsewhere was often done with "wire and post" in which bare (or only sometimes insulated) wires were strung post-to-post on glass or ceramic insulators. A little later, it became common to use insulated wire, but the insulation consisted mainly of cotton or linen cloth strips wrapped around the wire and saturated with coaltar pitch or shellac. This is a "not very durable" insulation, but the standoff height of the posts made it relatively unimportant how good the insulation was, as long as it was strung in unoccupied walls and attics etc.

In the era when wire and post installations were done, there was no universal attempt to "ground" anything. Wiring of this kind is still occasionally found still in use by people restoring "historical" homes and other buildings. In areas with "modern" building codes installation of this kind of wiring disappeared prior to 1940 or so. Legal or not, such methods were occasionally used in rural/farmstead homes as late perhaps as the early 1950s ("Uncle E" wasn't really all that up on safety, but had no difficulty getting the components ca. 1948 out on the farm.)

Somewhat later, the use of 2-wire assembled wiring, in which two copper conductors were molded into a single insulating unit became common, and in most areas became required by building codes. At about the time that the molded wire appeared, most codes specified that one side of the circuit must be "grounded" at the "fuse box." In the earliest period when grounded circuits were specified, receptacles where you'd plug in an appliance had two identical parallel slots, so you had no real way of knowing which side was the "hot" slot and which side was the "ground" slot. Systems of this kind were common until sometime perhaps in the late 1940s or early 1950s, and the symmetrical receptacles are still fairly frequently found in "modern" homes (although the mains etc generally will have been brought sort of up to date, - usually - or sometimes - or not).

Recognition that knowing the difference between hot and ground sides of the circuit had some importance led to the use of two-slot receptacles in which the "ground side" slot was a bit wider than the hot side slot. Plugs on appliances where it mattered had a wider blade on one side, so the plug could only be inserted one way. Appliances where it didn't matter had the same size blade on both sides of the plug, and could be inserted either side up. Homes constructed after about 1950 or so, perhaps a bit earlier, will generally have (or had originally) the assymetrical two-hole receptacles, although it's not uncommon to find them "wired backwards."

Sometime in or before the 1950s someone made the remarkable discovery that if the "ground" wire carries a current it doesn't have the same voltage at both ends, and hence at one end or the other it's not really at "ground voltage." Three-hole receptacles became mandatory where there were building codes, although it was probably in the middle to later part of the 1950s before this requirement was generally in place. The wider slot became theoretically the "neutral" connection, and carries the "return" current. The narrow slot is (supposed to be) the "hot" connection. (Miswiring is fairly common.) The third is a round hole, and is supposed to be connected to a true "earth ground." The "ground" wire should never have a measurable current in it except in the case of a malfunction.

The GFI receptacles in common household use in the US generally assume that in order for there to be a "ground line current" there must be a difference between the currents on the "hot" and "neutral" lines, and the difference between these two currents is sensed to determine when the GFI device should trip and interrupt the circuit. By using the difference between two currents, they're insensitive to variations in line voltage, and they can be made very sensitive.

(Sensitivity is good enough that an inductive device like my dog clippers will frequently trip one. The current on both lines is the same, but isn't exactly the same at exactly the same time, during the brief "storage buildup" time in the vibrator coil.)

The "RCD" name may refer to "Return Current Detector" which is a nomenclature now used rarely in the US. What would be called an RCD interruptor would be tripped by the presence of a current in the "third wire." This would respond to an internal short circuit in an appliance, but does NOT reliably trip the circuit if an external return (as through the bath water) is the cause of the fault, where the differential current detection method would. (It's quite possible that other users have updated the method and just retained an archaic terminology.)

Note that dates given here are approximate, based on what I've seen done mainly in one local area. And perhaps not everything that I've seen has been strictly legal. Uniform US National Electrical Codes have been around for a long time, but universal adoption and enforcement is a fairly recent innovation in some places, so there has been a lot of variation across the country. Comments here also apply only to "utility" circuits, sometimes called "lamp circuits." Other rules apply to "heavy appliances."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 09:48 PM

And the name I was looking for was on the page I gave a link to. It was an ELCB.

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 09:06 PM

RCD and GFI appear to be the same thing. Wonder why they call them GFI's in the US. Until leftydee explained them, promting my earlier question, I thought they were something else, an earlier device (I forget what it was called) I read about somewhere that did motitor the earth leakage rather than the live/neutral.

BTW, I'm sure I've mentioned this before but for the record, as we discovered last year, a slug is capable of getting inside a junction box, melting most of itself into some form goo accross live and neutral which then is enough to trip a 30mA RCD. the electrician we called in had never seen anything like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:29 PM

gnu -

Even GFI receptacles run more like $14 - $18 (US) in my area, while a common 2 socket receptacle is about $0.97. Few mains boxes that I've seen use GFI breakers, and they're not generally required by current building codes in most places in the US, unless there's been a change in the past year since I looked.

A common practice here is to put a GFI receptacle in one location, usually in one bathroom, and run the sockets in other places that need (per code) GFI protection off that one circuit. GFI receptacles commonly available do have "outlput taps" for connecting the wires for that purpose, that put connected circuits "through the GFI," which may explain a difference in price(?).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 03:26 PM

By the way. Do not trust a GFCI. Treat every circuit as if it is not protected in any way. I always wear proper work boots. You would not believe the amount of faulty (pun inteneded) GFCI receptacles I have seen in my building inspection buisness. Personally, I would wire all such circuits from GFCI breakers AND use GFCI receptacles... hey, for six bucks a crack, why not? The breakers don't cost any more either.

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 03:06 PM

Well... if it was plugged into a GFCI circuit... get a gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:53 PM

No response to that query about whether chucking the electric fire in the bath would actually be actually a reliable murder technique. It crops up in a fair number of murder stories.

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:12 PM

Oops... where I said "outdoors"... this is clarified where I said "exterior".

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:09 PM

GFCI... Ground Fault Circuit Interruptor. Well, it does prevent you from getting "between line and load". As little as 5 milliamps difference between hot and neutral will trip the circuit. It's very existance is to protect you from getting fried.

GFCI locations... bathrooms, washrooms, outdoors, garages (USA, not in Canada), above counters for sinks and wet bars, unfinished basements (except sump pump or refigerator), crawl spaces, rooves, boat houses, swimming pool equipment, whirlpool baths, jacuzzis, exterior within 6.5' of grade (8' in Canada... must be for our bigger bears).

All houses in the US are wired 220V (240V) at the entrance. The 110 V is gained from splitting the 220V.

Anyone using the newer arc protection stuff? I don't know if it's mandatory yet or not in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:23 AM

On dangerous batteries -
I have been told that fires can start when battery-operated remote controls for televisions etc. slip down between cushions so that the buttons are pressed for long periods, causing over-heating.

On jumping off aircraft wings -
I believe it's the point where you hit the ground that might cause problems, rather than the jumping.

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 09:40 AM

So to clarify then (I hope!)

In the US it is common to have sockets in the bathroom wall into which you can plug (for example) a hair drier and sit on the edge of the bath drying your hair. This socket is electrically connected to the mains supply and some protection is offered by the use of a GFI (an RCD in the UK?) hopefully installed and working properly.

Whereas in the UK the only socket you are allowed in the bathroom is for electic shavers and this socket is not electrically connected (by wires) to the mains power supply and is not protected by a GFI (or RCD)

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:12 AM

But I need to know-- will it cause an anomaly in the space-time continuum?????

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: s&r
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 07:16 AM

don't lose your marbles..


Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 06:42 AM

"But since we were talking about batteries, which are simple direct-current devices, power factor doesn't enter into it."

Ah - but that would only be for a steady state current - at the instant of making and breaking the contact, the current is changing, thus the natural (though very low) capacitance, and inductance of the human body will affect the calculation...







See - I can BS with the best of them... truly a little knowledge is a dangerous thing in the hands of a fool...

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:19 AM

Amos -

I'm not a really fast *typist, but I can safely brag that I make as many misteakes as anynoe in a given time span.

(*compared to a couple of real pros I've known who could top 1800 cpm for l-o-o-o-o-ng stretches.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 01:03 AM

Damn, I hate it when that happens. Comes from typing faster than my brain is working....


A

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 12:28 AM

Amos -

You got the first one right:

V = I*R

Second one half right:

P = V*I = I²*R

But the second part of the second one requires the substitution:

I = V/R

to become

P = V²/R

Foolestroupe -

If you use the RMS voltage and RMS current, simple AC circuit solutions will be okay. In more complex circuits (with lead/lag phase relationships) you can get more complicated. In circuits with multiple frequencies and phase shifts, it can get significantly more complicated, so you use Maxwell's equations instead of Ohm's.

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 12:24 AM

Foolestroue is referring to the fact taht in alternating current, which goes one way and then the other repeatedly, the point where the voltage peaks and falls and reverses on a sine curve may be out of phase where the point where the current follows ITS sine curve. They go out of phase which cause a discrepancy between the current level seen as in phase with voltage, and the current level where it peaks out of phase with voltage. The ratio of "in phase" current to total current is called the power factor.

Power Factor is the ratio of watts (W) to voltamperes (VA).

But since we were talking about batteries, which are simple direct-current devices, power factor doesn't enter into it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 11:50 PM

Well, Amos, you are right for DC circuits, but with AC, you need to consider the Power Factor...

:-P

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:59 PM

Anyway, for those of you who may some day need to think about real current or real power:

VOLTAGE = CURRENT*RESISTANCE (V=IR)

POWER=CURRENT*CURRENT*RESISTANCE=VOLTAGE*RESISTANCE (P=VR or I^2R)
RESISTANCE=VOLTAGE/CURRENT (R=V/I)
CURRENT=VOLTAGE/RESISTANCE (I=V/R)

V is expressed in VOLT
RESISTANCE is expressed in OHMS
CURRENT is expressed in AMPS
POWER is expressed in WATTS

And that's about it. I think....

Editorial review always welcome.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 06:59 PM

On-off switch for the light above the electric stove USED to be on the wall behind the stove.

Something about reaching over hot burners and boiling pots and kettles....

It's now on the front of the stove.

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 05:46 PM

I used to live in a house where there was a socket immediately behind the taps of the kitchen sink. Because of the layout of the room, it was the only place you could plug the washing machine in. If you did, you had to be really careful not to touch the stainless steel sink, or anything other than the plastic tops of the taps or else you'd get a zap.

This sort of placement of sockets is deeply frowned upon by electricians (and safety officer) but was put in in the days before home wiring had to be inspected.

I took my washing elsewhere.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 02:47 PM

When we bought our house there were NO ground fault interuptor circuits. None. Not near sinks, not outside, not none nowhere.

This has been remedied. We have this thing about being electrocuted....

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 02:01 PM

GFI is like what we call an RCD in the UK then?

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: leftydee
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:47 PM

GFIs became the law of the land about 20 years ago in the USA thru the NEC. There are lots of unprotected sockets out there. Regular circuit breakers trip if overloaded or shorted but offer no protection from ground faults or most electrocutions. GFIs are essentially sensors that look for imbalances between the line (power) and the load (neutral). When there is an imbalance,like me getting zapped between my toaster and the faucet, the line shows power out but the load sees nothing. Hence , we get a tripped GFI. This can happen also if a person gets between the load and ground. It will not protect you from getting directly in line between line and load because it sees no imbalance.

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:31 PM

try here for some of our standard switches and sockets.

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:27 PM

Amos, the sockets are a fixed part of the wiring/installation. Dazbo was reffering to portable appliances that may be plugged into such sockets.

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 10:05 AM

Dazbo,

It's hard for me, as a Yank, to imagine mains sockets not permanently connected to the electrical supply, except for those which have built-in circuit interrupters which trigger on ground faults to prevent accidents near sinks.

Or, switchable outlets which are controlled by a wall switch.

What do such beasts look like over there?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 09:44 AM

Re peeing and shocking, bodily contact not necessary, the stream will conduct nicely. Electrified railway lines often prove fatal in this way.

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 09:38 AM

I think the shock risk depends entirely where the battery is inserted..... and who else is watching.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 09:21 AM

Walrus, I actually had a friend set his pants on fire that way. He wasn't hurt, but it sure gave everyone at the picnic a good laugh.

4-O steel wool is a very good tinder for fire starting, and it generally has a thin coat of oil on it as well. Be careful with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: The Walrus
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 06:23 AM

If you want to try something dangerous with batteries, try pushing a 9V battery into wire wool - but make sure it's on a fire proof surface.
Actually, it's a handy way to start a fire if you are out camping/ fishing etc. (but remember to keep the bits in different places).

W

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 05:29 AM

Ok Foolestroupe.

With nearly 40 years experience writing specifications and purchase contracts for US military and industrial R&D and procurement, if you really want me to be specific, precise, and unambiguous it's certainly possible; but it will certainly interfere with maintaining my reputation for brevity and wit, and you won't really like it all that much.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 04:34 AM

"Stepping off an airplane wing that's not grounded on landing"

Were a wing grounded on landing, then serious problems would result.

My dad was in the RAAF in WWII.

:P

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 04:31 AM

Guest - you're right of course that in the UK we do have such things as electric showers, ventilation etc. I wasn't clear about what I was on about: I meant mains sockets for hair driers and other electrical equipment not permanently connected to the electric supply.

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:54 PM

electricity is very dangerous in water, as people used to find out in lighted swimming pools prior to the invention of GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) circuits and devices. One of my friends was witness to the research, which he tells me included throwing dogs into pools with a known leaky circuit in order to tell how many milliamps were dangerous. He wouldn't volunteer if this research was fatal to any canines.

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 05:07 PM

Rapaire -

Puncturing a Lithium battery with a pocket knife is definitely one of those "don't try this at home" things not to do. Heat, smoke, noxious vapors, and chemical burns are attendant risks.

At least one of the several "Anarchist Cookbooks" touts Lithium as a proper catalyst for converting pseudoephidrine to methamphetamine, and gives detailed instructions for how to open lithium batteries to extract the lithium. Aside from mostly unworkable reactions throughout the book, it is obvious that the author either has never seen the inside of a lithium battery and has no comprehension of what one actually contains, - or is dead.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: Metchosin
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 02:26 PM

LTS,   I don't think on that occasion it was so much inate mental incapacity as the high octane of what I had consumed, that clouded my judgement about exactly where to put my bum......and nah, you're not a stinker, I doubled over once when a gentlemen judged his inseam to be longer than the height of the electric wire. I think I eventually apologized for laughing.

Guest, no fear, I do some very dumb things, but I'm not a deliberate masochist.

Although, if I suck a lithium battery will it help counteract my manic reaction to fire to my mouth?

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 12:19 PM

Warn't talking about no batteries...

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:55 AM

WYSYWIG, you will have wired thousands of batteries in series, far more than you will have wired in parallel. Just not all at once.

Amos. Dazbo is wrong, at least for the UK See here.

Any electrical work in bathrooms or kitchens in the UK comes under the part P.

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:22 AM

Peace, I have "wired" thousands in my lifetime, but not--thank God! -- in series. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:41 AM

Dazbo, all US mains are 110V 60Hz; UK mains are generally 220V 50Hz. US houses have outlets all over the house including the bathroom and kitchen. Modern ones use Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters for outlets near sinks, though older houses do not.

US houses do often contain 220V stoves, heaters, and the like but they are powered by ganging the 110-volt circuit.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:36 AM

If you have over a thousand wired, be very careful.

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: GUEST,Bill the sound
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:35 AM

Yes AA batteries could give you a nasty shock-but-You'd need ahell of alot or them in series(electrical term)

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 09:25 AM

No, you'd need to make the lilithium react with deuteronomy to get that. But if you can get a funeral reactor going, maybe there's some use for the Bible...

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 09:21 AM

If I tossed a lithim battery into heavy water, could I get lithium VI deutride? Maybe I could puncture the case with my pocketknife, huh?

Sure would like some lithium VI deutride. I'd use it to make a fusion...reactor.

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 07:49 AM

s&r -

I rather thought that the lead sentence:

Stepping off an airplane wing that's not grounded on landing

would be assumed to apply to what followed immediately thereafter; however I should have applied the adage that "nothing's stupid proof, 'cause stupid people are too damned clever."

The biggest hazard encountered with Lithium batteries is their unpredictable habit of setting things on fire. And it's not just "when they first came out," as several laptop makers, among others, have had recent Li battery recalls. Lithium reacts vigorously with water, including humidity in the air. Any moisture encapsulated in a battery during manufacture (a manufacturing defect), and/or any leakage of the battery case can cause problems.

It's also been suggested that Lithium oxide produced by battery leakage could be a problem in enclosed spaces, since it's known to be "mood affecting" and in high doses can have unpredictable effects. My own "professional" requests for comment on this subject went unanswered a few years back; but the battery makers' failure to respond persuaded "management" to not use them in at least one commercial airplane system (that I know of) where they were originally included by the designer.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Shock Risk from AA Batteries/Water?
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 07:27 AM

Interesting discussion as it brings back a limited amount of my electrical engineering courses.

What happens to you if you are floating in water (a swimming pool for example or a big bath) and someone chucks in an electric fire or hair drier (see Hollywood) connected to the mains? Surely you would not be the least resistant part of any resultant circuit so should be fairly safe. Is this correct? (And no, I'm not willing to test it under any circumstances!!!)

Also, having recently watched What Women Want on the TV over the holidays Mel Gibson's character is shown drying his hair with a hair drier and falling into the bath gets a shock (fair enough as he is obviously part of the circuit mains, drier, Gibson, water, bath to earth). However do American bathrooms have mains sockets? In the UK and in Europe, the only sockets we are legally allowed in bathrooms are 110V (rather than the 220V mains) an are for electic shavers and there is no connection with the mains. As I understand it basically the electric current is induced so there is no connection between earth and the electric shaver.