BS: America's New Half-Wit Army

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 08:17 PM

Good points troll and GUEST, JTT nad the two posts, if taken collectively, tell a much larger story...

Yeah, Thomas Jefferson warned us that if democracy would work it would tinvolved and informed electorate... Well, like troll has pointed out, most kids don't know sh*t from shinola...

And the one's who have overcome the American eductaion system will ahve to sift thru lots of disinformation as the coporpoartist have planty of money for blogs that propagate lots of propaganda... Might of fact, since it is to their intersts that even the critical thinking electorate will have to sift carefully thru their crap...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 08:15 PM

http://www.ebudget.state.fl.us/Highlights/overview/budget_overview_home.asp


There isn't much 'new' money that will find its way to the classroom. Most of it seems headed for capital/infrastructure expenditure.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Troll
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 07:50 PM

When you look at what our government run schools are turning out as high school graduates these days, it's enough to make you cry. They can't read, write or compute and most of them don't seem to care.

It is routine for a first-year college student to take mostly remedial courses. Teachers no longer can teach critical thinking; they must instead teach the tests that are required by the government to test "proficiency". All they test is the ability to take tests.ost of the kids forget the information as soon as they walk out of the test.

Here in Florida we have the "FCAT" which is given in the early spring. After it is over it's almost impossible to get the students to do ANY work. They know that it's the FCAT that's important to the school and the state and that they won't flunk if they did well no matter now little they do after it's all over.

The fact that the education budget has been doubled under the Bush administration isn't helping a bit because a lack of money isn't the problem. The problem is that education simply isn't valued anymore. It's much more important to have "feel-good" classes than it is to memorize the multiplication tables. The idea is now that school should be "fun" and that anything that isn't "fun" should be avoided.

I could go on but why bother. We don't just have a dumber army, we've got a dumber nation.

And no one seems to care.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 01:21 AM

Up until the late 1950's both the Australian and Canadian armed forces were modelled on those of the UK. The UK, or more correctly the mainland of the British Isles, only introduced conscription in 1916 during the First World War and in the period 1939 to 1945 during World War Two. Due to the threat posed by Soviet Russia in the immediate aftermath of WW II conscription in the form of two years National Service was maintained until 1957. Apart from those periods the UK has always "fielded" a volunteer, or professional army.

The same could not be said of the Royal Navy who, up to and including the Napoleonic War, were allowed to impress men for service against their will in time of war.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jan 06 - 07:59 PM

GUEST,JTT

Once you vote for a government, you have given that government permission to do as they wish in your name (mileage may vary). Democracies work that way. The voters--barring referendums--have their say on election day. So, yes to your statement. The voters DID have a say. They said that they would follow the direction of Bush and Congress. That's that. However, "Perhaps America would do better to put its intelligent people, not into a killing machine, but into a system of genuine co-operation and diplomacy with other countries, and to stop killing?". Absolutely. And next time maybe they'll be a bit more careful with their votes.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 18 Jan 06 - 07:37 PM

Peace talks about the American electorate having sent troops to Afghanistan and Iraq. Is this correct? Did the voters have a say?

Incidentally, yes, one would have to agree that the US can "kill the heck out of" hundreds of thousands of people.

Whether this adds to American power and influence or decreases it, in the long run, is a moot point.

There's a well-tested theory in newspaper work that one 'letter to the editor' represents the views of 1,000 people.

Surely one person killed will cause at least 1,000 people to hate the killer, or in the case of a killing by an army, to hate the government and people of that killer? And if it's a child who's killed, or the mother of a family, surely the number hating and the intensity of the hatred will be greater?

Perhaps America would do better to put its intelligent people, not into a killing machine, but into a system of genuine co-operation and diplomacy with other countries, and to stop killing?

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 07:22 PM

DING. Good eye, Charmion. Was thinking Juno and writing Anzio.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Charmion
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 03:53 PM

Anzio isn't generally thought of as a Canuck action, Peace; 1st Can Div was rebuilding after Ortona, and the rest of Eighth Army was on its way to Monte Cassino. The half-Canadian 1st Special Service Force was at Anzio, however, holding down the right flank of the beach-head. That's where Sgt Tommy Prince earned his Military Medal and Maj Stan Waters the U.S. Silver Star.

But your point is well taken; just substitute Ortona, Caen, Falaise, Walcheren, the Hochwald, and a whole whack of other furrin places.

The original statement was too sweeping; volunteer armies have worked very well for countries, like Canada and Australia, that enjoy good physical defences and friendly relations with their nearest neighbours, and have no imperial ambitions. Volunteer armies don't work for imperial powers, or for countries with ferocious or unstable neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 01:52 PM

"Volunteer armies historically have never worked."

Yeah. Say that about the Canucks at Vimy, Anzio, Dieppe.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 01:45 PM

I recall one Revolution where it worked handsomely. It was a rough slog, though...

A

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 11:55 AM

"Volunteer armies historically have never worked."

Historically - Wellington's volunteer army seemed to perform rather well when pitched against Napoleon's conscripts.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Charmion
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 10:42 AM

Canada is different, too -- so different that we from north of 49 should be very careful about judging the military culture of our neighbours to the south.

For the record, we tried conscription twice, in 1917-18 and 1944-45, and it caused far more trouble both inside and outside the Army than it was worth.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 06:49 AM

The Aussie Army stopped using elastic sided boots some time ago, I was told. Something about if they didn't have the brains to lace up the boots, they weren't good enough....

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Hrothgar
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 05:49 AM

Does a form of Gresham's Law come into play here - that bad money drivs out good?

If good soldiers find they have to serve with morons, will they leave, and thus increase the percentage of morons?

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 02:04 AM

"if people had 'intelligence' - then they wouldn't do wars! "

'we could lay down in arkansaw grass'...

now it's a music thread...

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 11:20 PM

The Vincennes is only one example of what can happen when soldiers rise in rank above their ability. Think of all the "friendly fire" incidents!

But, as my mother remarked at the beginning of this so-called war, "How would you like to be a soldier with a commander in chief like that?" Even an eighty year old woman realized that Bush may not be the best leader.

I agree, Bobert. The Bush administration does not care if a soldier can think or not. They want people who will follow orders and never question authority. In fact, they would be much happier if the entire civilian population never questioned anything and continued to be nice little consumers.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 10:47 PM

Problem is, AR, they US don't want no thinkin' grunts... Don't work in their big scheme of things... The US don't wnat soldiers, capable of independent thought... They want warriors, capable of only killing....

Heym I din't design it this way. I fully undersatnd what you are saying and I am in agreement with you.... 'Cept that ain't what we got...

I didn't draw it up in the sand like this so don't burn me fir it... It's a leadership situation... Thsy don't want no independent thinkin'...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 10:39 PM

The reason you need smarter military people is so they don't get people killed.

You take the Vincennes episode. It happened right after the Stark incident in '87--in which I was involved. The American Navy got jittery after the Stark was destroyed by an Iraqi jet firing Exocet missiles--understandable. But then a passenger airliner took off from Iran. It was ascending away from the Vincennes but the genius at the radar reported that it was descending towards the Vincennes so the CO ordered it shot down and it was--killed everybody onboard, all innocent people. That's what happens when you put an idiot at the controls and that's why you don't do it.

What if someone you cared deeply about was on that plane? What would you do?

What would you do?

The problem is, you seem to think it's only low-level grunts. What happens when you don't have enough smart people joining the military and you're forced to have to start promoting stupid grunts? You're going to get a lot more incidents like the Vincennes. You're going to get morons leading troops into hopeless situations because they are too dumb to know the situation was hopeless.

And it isn't just enlisted. You're going to get the same problem with officers. You're opening the door to a military disaster. And we can ill afford anymore of those.

You've seen what happens when a complete moron is elected president. Now don't wish that on some poor guy who wants to come home in one piece but is surrounded by incompetent morons who don't give a damn because that is the reality of having stupid people in the military. They don't care if they fuck up or not because they have fucking up their entire lives--SNAFU.

I was in charge of people like this. I have no sympathy for them because I saw them up far too close. Stupid assholes who don't give a shit. The more serious the task, the less serious they take it. They can't be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 09:54 PM

Well, really, it don't matter if you have smarter grunts or not...

They don't make policy...

They don't order torture...

They don't order up the wars...

Okay, if you had a draft, sure you'd have smarter grunts... Who cares??? Where's the differernt end result if chickenhawks are not only ordering up the wars but trying to micromanage them, as well... (Think Donnie Dumsfeld here who told the Pentagon to "stick it" when they questioned his plan for the Iraq invasion...)

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 09:50 PM

An IQ test measures your ability to do well in school.

An aptitude test measures ........? What you may be interested in?
or perhaps, where your natural abilities lie?   Not sure.

Schooling is not education. Education can take place anywhere.

Yes, schooling in North America is not what it should be. Schooling needs more money to make early childhood education a priority. Schooling also needs to become more relevant to young people.

I'm still curious about the IQ and the aptitude of GWB.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 09:36 PM

Noun
gullibility (uncountable)

The quality of readily believing information, truthful or otherwise, usually to an absurd extent

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 09:29 PM

'..............poor murdered men'

on all 'sides'


if people had 'intelligence' - then they wouldn't do wars!

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 08:02 PM

>>PS Take your self-satisfied horseshit and stick it. I don't accept lectures from people like you. Not yesterday, not today, and not tomorrow. Find sone manners and I will begin to be civil. Until then, piss on you fellow.<<

I could say the same to you but I won't bother.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 07:09 PM

Don't feed the troll, Peace

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 06:46 PM

PS Take your self-satisfied horseshit and stick it. I don't accept lectures from people like you. Not yesterday, not today, and not tomorrow. Find sone manners and I will begin to be civil. Until then, piss on you fellow.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 06:42 PM

"And someone with a low IQ can be smart at times. So what? Who is saying everything is black or white, cut and dry? Nobody."

Yeah, and I was stating my opinion. OK, Jack?

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 06:24 PM

"Volunteer armies historically have never worked."

Ah - but then Australia is different.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 06:17 PM

>>But, AR, my friend, this discussion is a mute point...<<

I hope that was a pun.

>>Bottom line, the US militray is so advanced in making war that it can just kill the heck outtas anyone it wants... Look at Afganistan and Iraq... Yeah, they killed off lotta folks... Dindn't mteer if these folks eneded killin'... That aain't got one thing to do with anything... Just kill 'um... And it seems that it don't matter which lkids they plug into this war machine... Yer gonna get lotta other folks dead...<<

We're so advanced in making war we got our asses kicked out of Vietnam just like we're about to get our asses kicked out the Middle East. for some who claims to be critical of Bush, you seem to think a lot like him. We're Americans, we can't lose. We DO lose and we ARE losing right now.

>>Like I pointed out, it ain't a jatter of who smart the grunts are that carry out the "warrior" part of the deal but how smart the ***leaders*** are!!!<<

I'll grant you it didn't take a lot of brains to get us in the quagmire we are in now, but nevertheless, You litter a road with IEDs and then have a team of smart people run that gauntlet and a team of dumb people do the same, who do you think will come out better? So while I would question the widsom of the idiot who put me in that situation, it's up to me to come out of it alive and I don't want to depend on an idiot in that situation.

>>Here is where I am very concerned!!! Seesm the leaders ain't no bright bulbs either...<<

Doesn't matter about them. They're not the ones who have to live by their wits and their training to come home alive.

>> I mean, lets look at Donnie Dumsfeld fir starters...<<

You can point at any leader and say that. That has nothing to do with getting killed because you can't follow instructions or becasue they guy next to was daydreaming instead paying attention.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 05:58 PM

>>So what is wrong with the conscription system?<<

Absolutely nothing, friend. They very definitely need to bring back the draft in America. Americans are spoiled rotten children of privilege. Volunteer armies historically have never worked.

With conscription you get a better mix of people instead of the same old down-on-the-luck dope looking for a quick paycheck--the kind of people joining the Iraqi police and regiments, for example. They join for the paycheck and then run when the bullets start flying.

Volunteer armies are great in peacetime but simply don't work in times of war. As America is now finding out.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 05:52 PM

>>Issue with this. IQ is a piss-poor way of measuring intelligence. Mine is above average, but at times I can be as stupid as a turnip.<<

And someone with a low IQ can be smart at times. So what? Who is saying everything is black or white, cut and dry? Nobody. Were talking general observations. High IQ people are generally better all around people than stupid ones. A higher percentage of dropouts and low-IQ people are likely to believe in Jewish world domination conspiracy theories and the like. They are more likely to become fundies. Smart people just don't get suckered into that stuff.

And the dumber you are when you're young will not compare to how utterly stupid you will be when you get older and your thinking process slows down. That's why so many old people get suckered by the most idiotic scams I ever heard of. They weren't smart to begin with. My father, otoh, is in his 80s and sharp as a tack--but then he's a retired automotive engineer.

The proof is in front of your face every single day. Ignore it at your own peril.

>>We do know that IQ scores are affected by a person's health, whether or not that person had breakfast, stress levels, etc. The issues are not one. IQ is a thing. The educational difficulties in North America, UK, Oz, NZ, etc., is another issue. Do not conflate the two.<<

What educational difficulties??? You and Bobert need to start saying what you mean so the rest of us know what you mean. I'm not conflating anything because I don't know what you're talking about and neither of you wants to explain it. What educational difficulties are you talking about??

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 05:39 PM

>>I would venture to suggest that the keyword is not 'Learning', but the word 'Or'. As the definition of the test makes it clear that it may be designed to test someones "capacity for doing a specified kind of work".<<

But they still have to learn it. If not, they would already know how and wouldn't need to take any test. The key word is "learning." Always has been, always will be.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 05:22 PM

>>If I recall correctly, cooks usually have the lowest AFQT scores,<<

Haha, you could be right about that.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 01:07 PM

"Contradictory statement. If intelligence isn't important than who cares about this "educational problem" that you never specified? In fact, there can't be an educational problem since intellect doesn't matter. We should even have schools then."

Issue with this. IQ is a piss-poor way of measuring intelligence. Mine is above average, but at times I can be as stupid as a turnip. We do know that IQ scores are affected by a person's health, whether or not that person had breakfast, stress levels, etc. The issues are not one. IQ is a thing. The educational difficulties in North America, UK, Oz, NZ, etc., is another issue. Do not conflate the two.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 01:01 PM

GuestAR282
""test given to determine a person's capacity for learning or doing any of a number of specified types of work."

The key word there is "learning" which is inherently intelligence driven if it involves training from books and manuals--acquiring knowledge. Learning how to operate a wood chipper is a different thing."

I would venture to suggest that the keyword is not 'Learning', but the word 'Or'. As the definition of the test makes it clear that it may be designed to test someones "capacity for doing a specified kind of work".

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 03:57 AM

Living in a small German town with a U.S. Army garrison I could notice a decline in the soldiers' intellectual abilities over the years when talking with them. This started when the conscript army was replaced by the volunteer army.

In the German Army it is the grunt (with mecanized gear) who brings the decision in the end on the battlefield, and in training our aim was to accomplish the single fighter thinking independently in the main lines of the battle plan. The German word is "mitdenkender Einzelkaempfer" which I only could try to describe.

In a conscript army the intellectual capabilities of the entire people are mirrored on a smaller scale, and that is the best what could happen. Furthermore we have the best pool for motivating men to apply for trainig programs for promotion. Here we also can choose a good stock of professionals. Only after the basic training a draftee can apply for longer service (2 to 12 years), and only after a couple of years of good performance one can apply for lifetime. And I know many motivated to join the Reserves Training Programs after leaving the army as privates who are now Senior NCOs

So what is wrong with the conscription system?

Wilfried
(grunt, drafted, Cpt, university degree)

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: NH Dave
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 01:31 AM

While the Army may recruit large numbers of Cat IV's, they don't usually place them in positions requiring great intelligence or technical skills. All of the potential enlistees are rated on the AFQT, and other tests indicating aptitude and interest. While the AFQT may not be an IQ test as such, someone who scores up at the 95%ile in each of the fields will be someone with a high IQ, or at least a higher IQ than 80+% of the people who have taken the test.

    After initial testing to determine relative abilities in the Army's three areas of testing, General, Administrative, Mechanical, and Electronic; the recruit will generally be assigned to a technical school or other means of training him or her in the fields the Army needs and his or her aptitudes indicate that s/he can complete. If a person is trying to get some specific training while in the Army, the Army will administer the test and provide the results to the person's recruiter before the person is even accepted into the military. The recruiter will sit down with the person and match his or her aptitude scores with the minimums required for the various training courses currently available. Since recruiting needs and quotas as well as school quotas change from quarter to quarter, and from month to month within the quarter, the person with adequate scores for a specific school may have to wait until the Army needs enough of this field to run a class, and then try to get accepted for the class. Most recruiters are honest enough to advise people with really low scores that they might want to lower their sights a bit if they want to enlist for a specific school.

    Straight off the street volunteers will be given an initial aptitude test to determine it they can really see lightning and hear thunder, as well as have the ability to chew bubble gum and walk simultaneously.   If the volunteer enlists "blind" like this s/he will be sent to a Basic Training Base, and during the very first part of the training be administered more aptitude testing to find an appropriate hole for this shaped peg. The sharper ones will be selected for the more demanding career fields or jobs, while the less qualified ones will end up in less demanding work. Having been through these processes as well as serving in both the Regular Army and the Regular Air Force, I will agree that the calibre of the off the street recruit is declining. The Tech Manuals I used to use with pages and pages of detailed descriptions of electronic or mechanical testing and desired resullts have frequently given way to manuals that are barely more challenging that a comic book, and many ARE comic books. From this, volunteers from off the street generally have poorer qualifications than the draftees of my era - just pre-Viet Nam - but the military has to use what it can get in order to swell the ranks.

    So, qualified volunteers who take the time to scope out the advantages and training available will be enlisted into fields or courses of their choice, while less qualified people will be shunted to those jobs requiring less intellect. People just off the street simply volunteering for the Army will be given whatever is left, AND THE DECISION WILL BE MADE AFTER THEY SIGN UP, at Basic Training! Buyer beware! When I was at electronics school we had a young man who failed a course in repairing some type of Army field radio or similar equipment, so the school sent him into the operator course for this same equipment. When he failed this course too, he was kept around our student company to make himself useful, until the shrinks could evaluare his abilities and intelligence.   During this time he became a vital part of processing new arrivals to our company, sparing the various other NCO's from driving back to the company after hours, picking the trainees up down town, issuing them bedding and a place to sleep, and even feeding them as needed. This young man did all of this, and was also the only man who could bank off a coal fire in the evening so that it could be stoked up in the morning and produce heat and hot water for showering. Later on, he was determined to be untrainable, and mustered out of the Army; yet he had functioned in these many tasks well above his supposed abilities, so there IS a place for the Cat IV folks in a functioning Army unit. I suspect that many of these people will become line Infantry, work in dining halls, supply rooms, motor pools, or any of a number of helper or other non-technical jobs that always need doing in the military. When the cheese gets binding, they will all be expected to turn to with their assigned weapon and fight as Infantry, as this is one thing they all have been trained in before they hit their first unit.

    From this then, people of low abilities will generally find a home in the Army, especially as the Army was and probably is the only service that will accept people who don't have a high school diploma. There are and will be jobs that they can do, and these are the jobs in which they will end up during their period of service. Unfortunaely the Army is no longer able to afford people who can not be promoted above the rank or Corporal or Specialist, so they will probably be ushered out before they complete 12 years, so they can no longer serve until they can retire.

   Dave

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 09:58 PM

Well, wouldn't it kind of help to be pretty stupid (or desperate for paying work and 3 meals a day)? What I mean is, high intelligence would seem to militate strongly against volunteering to join a military that is likely to send you to a mess like Iraq, wouldn't it?

(with some exceptions...I'm sure there are intelligent people who imagine they're doing their patriotic duty over there...after all, the Third Reich found plenty of those, didn't it? They did start really dwindling after about '43, though...eventually people catch on and aren't so easily fooled any longer.)

The only thing that sobers up a great power that is drunk on its own rhetoric and conquest is a major military defeat. The USA has been careful to avoid attacking anyone lately who can possibly inflict such a defeat on them. But even an ignominious withdrawal...as from Vietnam...can also be pretty chastening. It causes the hawks to lick their wounds and retire from the scene for a little while. Like...5 or 10 years at best, usually.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 09:51 PM

But, AR, my friend, this discussion is a mute point... Bottom line, the US militray is so advanced in making war that it can just kill the heck outtas anyone it wants... Look at Afganistan and Iraq... Yeah, they killed off lotta folks... Dindn't mteer if these folks eneded killin'... That aain't got one thing to do with anything... Just kill 'um... And it seems that it don't matter which lkids they plug into this war machine... Yer gonna get lotta other folks dead...

Like I pointed out, it ain't a jatter of who smart the grunts are that carry out the "warrior" part of the deal but how smart the ***leaders*** are!!!

Here is where I am very concerned!!! Seesm the leaders ain't no bright bulbs either...

I mean, lets look at Donnie Dumsfeld fir starters...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: .Woody
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 09:43 PM

AR282 tried enlist but he flunked out. Now he is pissed.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 09:41 PM

I suppose you are entitled to an opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 09:34 PM

>>The AFQT is an aptitude test. It does not measure intelligence in any way.<<

Of course it does. It does not measure IQ but it does, in some way, measure intelligence.

Here's the definition of "aptitude test":

"test given to determine a person's capacity for learning or doing any of a number of specified types of work."

The key word there is "learning" which is inherently intelligence driven if it involves training from books and manuals--acquiring knowledge. Learning how to operate a wood chipper is a different thing.

Case in point: I know someone who has a good ear for sound production. He has an aptitude for it even though he's not particularly intelligent. The problem is, without someone to show him how a disc recorder works and to stand by and do tasks for him that he can't do himself even though he knows intuitively what he wants to achieve, he's can't use it because he can't sit down and read the manual. To know if he's a good producer requires that he demonstrate some theoretical knowledge of what he is doing and he cannot. So even if he has a good ear for sound, who would hire him? Nobody. At best, he can rise no higher than a studio assistant.

>>As a former field artillery commander, I doubt that I'd have put a CAT-IV (or one of the CAT-Vs we had in the military in the mid-1970s) in the fire direction center, but they did fine in the ammunition resupply platoon. On the other hand, working in the data center is a better job for a higher scoring person than humping projectiles.<<

They can be taught simple activities and maybe more complex ones, but you just can't depend on them for that. But, sure, you can use them for grunt work. Better than wasting someone smart. They can learn a physical activity--they can have a high aptitude for that--but that is no guarantee they can pass an aptitude test. For example, he could be the best ammo humper you ever saw, but if he's functionally illiterate, he can't answer even the simplest questions on a test. So the test inherently takes intelligence into account.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: pdq
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 09:18 PM

If I recall correctly, cooks usually have the lowest AFQT scores, MPs next higher.

Anybody who has eaten SOS knows it don't take much aptitude to make that stuff!

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 09:11 PM

The AFQT is an aptitude test. It does not measure intelligence in any way. Categorizing a person with a relatively low AFQT score as a "moron" demonstrates a significant level of ignorence of this fact.

A CAT-IV enlistee (a person with a score between 10 and 30 on a 0-99 scale) may have demonstrated a low aptitude for military service based upon the four areas of the ASVAT that contribute to the score (these are Word Knowledge, Paragraph Comprehension, Arithmatic Reasoning, and Mathmatics Knowledge) but, depending upon the specialty in which he or she ends up, can contribute as much or more than another person in that specialty. As a former field artillery commander, I doubt that I'd have put a CAT-IV (or one of the CAT-Vs we had in the military in the mid-1970s) in the fire direction center, but they did fine in the ammunition resupply platoon. On the other hand, working in the data center is a better job for a higher scoring person than humping projectiles.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 09:03 PM

>>... I'm just a littyle sick of I.Q. crap anyway... What we have is a major social/educational problem that ain't got one thing to do with intellegence...<<

Contradictory statement. If intelligence isn't important than who cares about this "educational problem" that you never specified? In fact, there can't be an educational problem since intellect doesn't matter. We should even have schools then.

>>Yeah, some kids don't do well in school but if their car won't start they can fix it and others do well in school but don't know how to put air in a tire...<<

I'll agree book learning by itself is largely useless but cars nowadays are highly complex and require special electronic equipment to work on them and you have to have training to learn it. The days of tuning the carburetor yourself are gone because few cars have them anymore. It's all fuel-injection timed with PCMs. If he's tinkering with some jury-rigged hot rod piece of crap, that's exactly what we're talking about--equipment having to be dumbed-down to these people's level. Makes for a less effective system that gives the enemy a better chance at winning.

>>Yeah, makes me think of that old story about how the professor was on his way to teach his upper level philosphy class when one of his wheels fell off the car and the lug nuts were missing. SWell, seems that this happened right in front of the state mental hospital and there was a patient looking thru the chain-link fence... The learned good professor was just scratchin' his head when the mental patient said, "Hey, Mister, if you take one lug nut from each of the other wheels you'll be able to bolt the wheel back on to get you back to town."

"Well", said the learned professor, "thank you, That is so smart that I just have to ask why you're in there..." to which the mental patient said...

..."I may be crazy but I ain't dumb..."<<

This is an old joke and not proof of anything. It's not even anecdotal evidence.

>>Well, this has something to do with this conversation... With failing socail/educational in the US, there's alot of folks that just ain't that "dumb"...<<

Again, a contradictory statement.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 08:46 PM

Now I know I'm going to catch a wrath of crap fir what I'm about to say but, hey, have I even been shy 'bout saying stuff that is gonna get me a butt whup here in Mudville but...

... I'm just a littyle sick of I.Q. crap anyway... What we have is a major social/educational problem that ain't got one thing to do with intellegence... Yeah, some kids don't do well in school but if their car won't start they can fix it and others do well in school but don't know how to put air in a tire...

Like I said, this gonna get me a butt whup... Screw it, I've had a few and gievna few... Big whup (hopefully not too big, mid you, if it's my butt...)

Yeah, makes me think of that old story about how the professor was on his way to teach his upper level philosphy class when one of his wheels fell off the car and the lug nuts were missing. SWell, seems that this happened right in front of the state mental hospital and there was a patient looking thru the chain-link fence... The learned good professor was just scratchin' his head when the mental patient said, "Hey, Mister, if you take one lug nut from each of the other wheels you'll be able to bolt the wheel back on to get you back to town."

"Well", said the learned professor, "thank you, That is so smart that I just have to ask why you're in there..." to which the mental patient said...

..."I may be crazy but I ain't dumb..."

Well, this has something to do with this conversation... With failing socail/educational in the US, there's alot of folks that just ain't that "dumb"...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 07:41 PM

Ain't that the truth for all of us.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 07:26 PM

...or too young to know better.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 05:01 PM

Keep in mind that marines are there because they want to be there.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 04:48 PM

>>This means that in relation to fault-finding on comms gear 25% of the category IV were capable of out-performing 3% of the Category I, and out-perform even higher percentages of other groups. This seems to make a mockery of the initial categorisations!<<

Not really. From my own military experience, low-IQ guys tend to grasp at solutions. They have trouble thinking methodically. They grasp and sometimes get it right. Some have enough intuition to be right more often than wrong--and those are the low-IQ guys the military likes to have which is why they have an allowance of low-IQers, but these people are rare and that is why the allowance was originally so small.

Low-IQers have to be checked on and whenever they say they completed something, you MUST check. I learned that the hard way. Low-IQers tend to be less than model sailors/soldiers also if not downright problem soldiers. Now, I did know one smart guy who was a problem and could not be trusted to do anything much less do it right but he was an exception. Most smart guys WANT to do it right and CARE that it done right even if they hate the task. Dumb guys could be good at something but, even then, their ability to advance was necessarily limited.

Moreover, the 3% of smart guys who got something wrong are far more likely to figure it out and do it right than the 25% of dopes who got it right but wouldn't have a clue of what to do if they didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: America's New Half-Wit Army
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 04:13 PM

I remember watching a news report when the army first raised its test standards for new recruits. The reporter interviewed a particularly bitter young man who came from three generations of army. He was outraged because he had planned his entire life around a career in the military and so had not bothered to pay attention in school. He felt betrayed. And at 18, he had no alternate plans. Scary.