BS: Zionist Negotiation ?

Subject: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:20 AM

How do negotiate with people who believe that Palestine is their land because God gave it to them three and a half thousand years ago?

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:25 AM

I'll bite. How?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: harmony
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:25 AM

not sure. human beings seemed destined to destroy each other by outlandish claims to land and property.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:26 AM

Oh. Thought it was a joke coming on.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:31 AM

"May 14, 1948: late morning eastern standard time (late afternoon in Palestine): David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, reads a "Declaration of Independence," which proclaims the existence of a Jewish state called Israel beginning on May 15, 1948, at 12:00 midnight Palestine time (6:00 p.m., May 14, 1948,eastern standard time).

May 14, 6 p.m. eastern standard time (12:00 midnight in Palestine): The British mandate for Palestine expires, and the state of Israel comes into being.

May 14, 6:11 p.m. eastern standard time: The United States recognizes Israel on a de facto basis. The White House issues the following statement: "This Government has been informed that a Jewish state has been proclaimed in Palestine, and recognition has been requested by the provisional government thereof. The United States recognizes the provisional government as the de facto authority of the State of Israel." To see a color copy of this document click here.

May 14, shortly after 6:11 p.m. eastern standard time: United States representative to the United Nations Warren Austin leaves his office at the United Nations and goes home. Secretary of State Marshall sends a State Department official to the United Nations to prevent the entire United States delegation from resigning.

May 15: On May 15, 1948, the Arab states issued their response statement and Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq attack Israel."

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:33 AM

I genuinely wish it were.

Maybe a suitable punch line would be "Tell them there is no God"

But I suspect that won't help much.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 10:41 AM

As if the land belongs to anyone. I "own" a house but recognize that it is mine until I die. Then it will "belong" to whoever moves in after me. And 50 years from now no one will remember my name. But the house will.
It is not the ssame with countries. I try to imagine what my reaction would be if Japan, for instance, suddenly claimed California as its own based on some document from 976AD. I don't think that I would buy into it peacefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 12:41 PM

How do negotiate with people who believe that Palestine is their land because God gave it to them three and a half thousand years ago?

Let's say, just for the sake of the argument, that they were given that land by divine decree, as they claim. That very same G*d who, according to them and according to their holy books, gave them that land, also took it away from them in punishment for their misdeeds there, and he forbade them to try to take it back by force. In fact, according to their holy books, he forbade them to try take it back under any circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,bible reader
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 01:15 PM

Let's say, just for the sake of the argument, that they were given that land by divine decree, as they claim. That very same G*d who, according to them and according to their holy books, gave them that land, also took it away from them in punishment for their misdeeds there, and he forbade them to try to take it back by force. In fact, according to their holy books, he forbade them to try take it back under any circumstances.

Firstly, according to the holy books that I've read, it was the pagan Romans that took away the land from the Jews and sent most of them off into exile.

Secondly, you are a liar when you state that God forbade the Jews from taking back the land. Tell us exactly where in the Jewish holy books that God says that.

As Christians, according our holy books, the Jews reclamation to the land is an essential component in the conditions for the return of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 01:51 PM

So G*d gave it to them and man took it away? The biblical Israel (according to the Bible) was taken from the original inhabitants by force of arms and by genocide. But G*d is credited as having placed a divine decree upon this act of taking land and lives by the Jews. If it was G*d who gave it to them, it seems to me an act of blasphemy to suggest that that same G*d would have allowed anyone to take it away without his decree. However, don't just take my word for it.

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm

Torah Devorim 30:1

Collection of scriptural verses that show that only G*d will redeem the Jews from their exile

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:00 PM

CarolC,

I'm LOL!!!

You found propaganda from fringe Jews who hate Israel. They have no credibility with almost all Jews of all denominations are political stripes.

I particularly got a giggle from the "Why Orthodox Jews are opposed to a Zionist state" site. The Jews that you quote are to Judaism what Pat Robertson is to Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,Normie the Fink
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:11 PM

I'm Jewish and I hate Israel too. Then again, I've been a self-hating Jew since childhood when my parents caught me jacking off to pictures of Jackie Kennedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:20 PM

Hitler had a hypothetical plan (before the war) to move all the Jews to Madagascar. It was a patently ridiculous idea, but I guess he thought Madagascar was far enough away (and unimportant enough) that it would be tolerable to have the Jews there (from his point of view).

Various other people had the patently ridiculous idea of moving European Jews back to Palestine, where they had not been for a very long time indeed (if their ancestors had EVER been), and giving them the land there which already belonged to other people, on the basis of some ancient holy books...but mostly because nobody else wanted to give the Jews a homeland on their own soil...so why not give them Palestine?

In other words, dump the problem on somebody else who is too weak and disorganized to do much about it.

Only a world awash in collective guilt at the end of WWII could have come up with such a lunatic notion. And now we are all paying the price for it with the loss of our security.

God did not make some people more special than others, regardless of what the Bible has to say about it. To think that some people ARE more special than others is the kind of thinking the Nazis indulged in...and you see the results.

The whole problem between Zionists and Muslim extremists is they think exactly the same way. They think they're more special and more right than the other guy, and they've got the holy books to back them up...some of which are even the SAME holy books!

Keep in mind, though, the Muslims revere Jesus as a genuine prophet of God, and one of the most important ones too. The Jews don't. That being the case, it's rather odd that Jews and Christians are presently in an alliance against Muslims! It shows you just how arbitrary and phony the whole business is in the final analysis.

And then there's all that OIL...hmmmmm.

This fight is not just about religion. Not by any means. It's about raw power and who has it and who doesn't.

Pied Piper - You said: "Maybe a suitable punch line would be "Tell them there is no God" But I suspect that won't help much.

Well, look at it this way. "God" is a thought...a concept...in someone's mind. I mean, even if there is or is not a God in the sense you would mean, the God that any particular person means when they say "God" is...they mean their mental concept OF God. Now that exists. It has effect. Your mental concepts have effect on you. Mine have effect on me. If I feel that I'm "in love" (a strictly mental concept) with someone else, it has a powerful effect on me. For you or anyone else to tell me that my love does not exist is silly. It exists for me. You cannot deny the chosen mental concepts of other people as being real for them, because those mental concepts have real effect on those other people. So...you simply CAN'T say "there is no God" as long as anyone believes there is. You can say that "He" isn't physical, perhaps...that he isn't out there in a particular place in space...you can say that you don't share that concept, etc...but you cannot say that he isn't real for those who think he is, because ideas ARE real. Ideas can motivate entire societies and change the world. Something that can do that is real. An idea is not physical, it does not occupy space, you can't examine it in a lab or measure it, but it's real. It's a mental energy form, and energy is real.

You see, the problem with both the Israelis and the Arabs is...they don't regard the other's relgious (or other) ideas as being real...and they have no respect for them. That's a fundamental error on the part of both of them. It's called "intolerance". It's the same thing that drove the Nazis to commit terrible crimes on humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:34 PM

Doesn't really matter how other Jews see them, GUEST. The scriptural text has been provided. You can't selectively use Jewish religious texts to promote a political agenda and expect to be taken seriously by intelligent people. That makes you the equivalent of Pat Robertson.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 03:33 PM

Thank you, Pied Piper, for bringing this fatuous, disengenous, and completely idiotic debate back online--has it been ten minutes already, since it was last dragged out?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 04:21 PM

CarolC, even if one accepts scriptural texts as factual, pulling an odd verse out of minor books (and out of context) really means nothing.

The fact that many people choose to ignore is that, until the series of wars that began less than 24 hours after the declaration of Israel as a nation, most of the territory which constituted the state in 1949 had been purchased under either Turkish or Mandate law from its prior owners. It is entirely true that thousands of refugees were created by a succession of Arab defeats, mostly following Arab aggression or credible threats of invasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 04:28 PM

As Christians, according our holy books, the Jews reclamation to the land is an essential component in the conditions for the return of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Not the view of all Christians.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 04:29 PM

We can argue those specifics if you want to, artbrooks. I maintain that your assertions are incorrect. Most of the land that comprised what is now Israel was stolen from its original occupants, much of the time, at the point of a gun. And further, the war was started by Israel, before it declared its independence. This is a proven fact. The act of driving thousands of Arabs from their homes and villages at gunpoint prior to the declaration of Israel's independence was the start of the war. The Arab countries entered a war that had already been started by those who became Israelis after independence. It is always the case that when Israel starts a war, it only calls it a war after the people they have attacked respond.

However, that is not the thrust of this thread. The thrust of this thread has to do with the idea that the land that is now called "the state of Israel" was given to Jews by their God.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 04:35 PM

Sorry, CarolC, but you are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 05:03 PM

MG, I have not heard or read anything that indicates that CarolC sides with terrorists or hates Jews. Israel is not "the Jews", or vice versa. She is entitled to her opinion; in my opinion, hers does not correspond with generally accepted historical fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 05:06 PM

Thanks, artbrooks. Nevertheless, I am not wrong. It is a proven fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 05:41 PM

There are 2 types of negotiation, I think. The first is based on goodwill. The second is based on strength, in the absence of goodwill.

Given the fact that there is little goodwill ever expressed by either Israel toward Muslims or Muslims toward Israel, I expect we will see only the 2nd type of negotiation...plus further armed conflict. Armed conflict is itself a very crude form of negotiation, after all. The most crude form of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:22 PM

With all due respect, CarolC, you can't throw six million Israelis out of their homes just because you are unhappy about what happened more than fifty years ago, when they acquired the property--

The real claim that Israelis have to Israel is that they live there now. The business about the "Promised Land" is a nice thought, but the fact is that Israel was established by a UN mandate, and it's there, it's been there, and it isn't going anywhere--like it, or not.

It is unfortunate that blood was spilled when Israel was founded. It is unfortunate that people lost property that maybe shouldn't have lost it, it is most unfortunate that the displaced people has never been relocated. And perhaps most unfortunate of all that the promised Palestinian State has never come to fruition.

The Jews who created Israel were a displace people who had a powerful determination to survive, and who took that determination and created a new nation. Unfortunately, the Palestinians never had that determination--and a Palestinian state has never been established.

That's the reality. The rest of this stuff doesn't really make much difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:24 PM

War possesses, it is true, its own grammar but not its own logic. War can never be separated from political relations, and if this separation occurs anywhere in the study, all the threads of the relations are broken in one way or another and there only remains a thing without meaning or purpose.

Karl von Clauswitz, On War, 1832.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:46 PM

With all due respect, CarolC, you can't throw six million Israelis out of their homes just because you are unhappy about what happened more than fifty years ago, when they acquired the property--

M.Ted, please show me where I have suggested that anyone throw six million Israelis out of their homes. In fact, if you take a look at my previous posts on this subject, you will see that I have repeatedly stated that Israel within the pre-1967 borders should remain what it is.

However, people are constantly using the biblical argument to justify the continued occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem (and forced removal of Palestinians from their homes), when all of their non bible-related arguments fall flat on their figurative faces. So as long as people continue to use that argument to justify Israeli expansion (beyond the 1967 borders), that argument is fair game for people to debate, as I am doing here in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:58 PM

As Christians, according our holy books, the Jews reclamation to the land is an essential component in the conditions for the return of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Not the view of virtually ALL "christians"- only by the small number that accept the "rapure" (or is that rupture?) scenario invented out of whole cloth by a couple of 19th century lunatics.


Hell, the Raelians have more credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 07:04 PM

The term Zionist in the title of the thread is fair warning that objectivity, while not easy in this issue, isn't even desired, much less aimed at.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 07:23 PM

CarolC,to quote you:>> Most of the land that comprised what is now Israel was stolen from its original occupants, much of the time, at the point of a gun.

This statement has nothing to do with 1967 boundaries. What reason is there for saying somethinglike this, if not that you believe that establishing Israel was somehow criminal, and therefore it is not legitimate? This sort of talk is tired, old, rhetoric. The melodramatic phrases have no use, other than to generate anger--

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 07:46 PM

Why, Don?   Does it sound more ethnic than "lebensraum"?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 12:22 PM

Keep deleting it and I'll keep posting this:

Threads like this show who supports terrorism and who hates Israel and the Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 01:25 PM

M. Ted, if you would actually read the discussion, rather than projecting your own idea of what I am saying onto me, you would see that I was correcting something artbrooks posted that is factually incorrect.

The tired old rhetoric is the idea that the Palestinians deserve to be held in total subjugation and endless bondage by the state of Israel because, according to the totally false historical narrative that is promoted by Israel and repeated by people like artbrooks, the Arabs started the war after Israel declared its independence.

Until people stop repeating these outright lies, and people start telling the truth, Israel will continue to commit these crimes against the Palestinians, and people like you and artbrooks will help them do it.

It's time to end the occupation. No more excuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 01:34 PM

Israel will never give up the land, Carol C It is theirs and you side with a people that elected world renowned terrorists.

More here should speak up and confront you with that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 01:36 PM

We shall see, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 01:54 PM

Whether they do here or not, you and your terrorist heroes will not get their way.

I know people in Israel and it will not happen. Now isn't it time you prayed to Allah?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 02:08 PM

Hate-filled agendas like yours, Martin, have a way of backfiring eventually. It may take some time, but eventually, your karma is going to catch up with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 03:59 PM

God belongs to all people, not just the people in one self-idolizing, self-glorifying, archaic, and insane fundamentalist religion. God didn't write the holy books, a bunch of old men wrote them a long time ago, imagining that THEY were the one and only voice of God! What gall. As if God was that limited! Sheesh. It boggles the mind what people can believe.

Somebody could tell that to both the orthodox Jews AND the Muslim fundamentalists, but I doubt that it would do any good whatsoever. Their dogma requires them not to listen to any differing opinions, doesn't it? It SAYS so in their book! That's a catch-22. It deprives you of the need to ever think independently again. Just quote the friggin' book! That's what the Red Guards did...they quoted Chairman Mao...and a billion Chinese can't be wrong, can they? Ha! You BET they can be wrong. So can a few million Israelis and Arabs.

As for terrorists, terrorists are people who terrorize civilian populations. Period.   They wear many different nations' uniforms...or no uniform at all...which makes no difference whatsoever to the grieving families of the people they kill.

The "Enola Gay", for instance, was a famous terrorist airplane. It killed far more people in one shot than Hamas has ever managed to so far. That doesn't make Hamas better, morally speaking...it just makes them much less effective as terrorists. The US Air Force is way better at getting the terrorism job done than Hamas could ever dream of being, unless Hamas gets some nukes and a means of launching them. Let's hope they don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 04:00 PM

It is somewhat of a surprise to me to learn that I am an advocate of a continuation of Israeli crimes against the Palestinian people. Oh well, a day in which one doesn't learn something new is said to be a wasted day.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 06:15 PM

It is somewhat of a surprise to me to learn that I am an advocate of a continuation of Israeli crimes against the Palestinian people.

Whether or not you advocate them, you are helping to support them when you help Israel justify it's policies towards the Palestinians by repeating their fabricated version of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 06:20 PM

LOL! Now there's sarcasm. No, we wouldn't want a wasted day, would we, Art?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 06:26 PM

Nope. Next thing I'll learn is that I'm a closet Republican, a Budweiser drinker or a homophobe.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 06:55 PM

Well, Carol C., it is time for justification, or it will be anhiliation.

You can't reason with terrorists who use suicide bombers to blow up children. support that too, don't you?

The respectable newspapers today are full of anti-Hamas articles and you just keep backing them. CarolC, I have come to the conclusion that you are truly an enemy of Israel and all Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:10 PM

"a Budweiser drinker or a homophobe"

Bud's not very good beer, IMO. However, what the hell's wrong with homogenized milk?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:13 PM

It's not real food, that's what! Milk is for baby cows. People shouldn't drink it at all if they know what's good for them. It's bad for you. Spread the word and cause maximum pain to the dairy industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:30 PM

Hey LH, I was gonna say that.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:41 PM

I saw a site a few months back which showed the following: The five heaviest (per capita) dairy-product consuming countries in the world also have the highest per capita rate of osteoporosis. Huh!

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:48 PM

If y6ou don't like homoginized milk you must be a homophobe.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:52 PM

More like a homolactophobe to be precise.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:00 PM

No, how about a homoprophylactic?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:01 PM

Much of the world's population does not consume cow's milk, and yet most of the world does not experience the high rates of osteoporosis found in the West. In some Asian countries, for example, where consumption of dairy foods is low, fracture rates are far lower than they are in the United States and in Scandinavian countries, where consumption of dairy products is high.

From http://www.milksucks.com/osteo.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:15 PM

Thanks for that, bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:16 PM

So? Have a fucking beer with your cookies or cake.

I'll take my 2% milk.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:17 PM

"homolactophobe"

Sooner or later someone is going to turn it into a verb. Bound to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: number 6
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:19 PM

A quote from the Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zaha when asked about about benefits of their new Theocracy over a secular form of government:

A secular system "allows homosexuality, allows corruption, allows the spread of the loss of natural immunity like AIDS," he said. "

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:22 PM

"A secular system "allows homosexuality, allows corruption, allows the spread of the loss of natural immunity like AIDS," he said."

He'll likely find a way to make a few bucks, then.

Did "Arafat's" $300,000,000 ever get returned to the Palestinian people, BTW?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: number 6
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:25 PM

No ... his wife who has been living in luxury in Paris (never lived with the Palestinians) has it.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:52 PM

Nice for her, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jan 06 - 11:55 AM

Martin, YOU are the one who is advocating the complete destruction of a people, not me.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jan 06 - 02:19 PM

Go homolactophobe yourself, Peace. (grin) You too, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 06 - 04:50 PM

"Go homolactophobe yourself, Peace."

Gawd, is that a good thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jan 06 - 05:03 PM

You said someone was going to make a verb out of it, so I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Jan 06 - 05:09 PM

Homolactoprobe? Does that mean to insert a half-pint carton of milk where the sun don't shine? Eeeeeeww!

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Gervase
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 12:14 PM

So Martin, do you always condemn terrorists? Look at Begin and the thugs of the Irgun - what they did to the 90 odd people in the King David Hotel was a classic act of terrorism. Or were they courageous freedom fighters?
Trouble is, both sides have seen some pretty murderous bastards, and neither has the monopoly on righteousness or evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,Begin the Beguine
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 12:45 PM

Look at Begin and the thugs of the Irgun - what they did to the 90 odd people in the King David Hotel was a classic act of terrorism. Or were they courageous freedom fighters?

The attack on the King David Hotel was an attack on a building being used as the British military headquarters. The Irgun gave the British ample warning of the attack so that the building could be evacuated with out injuries or loss of life. THE BRITISH CHOSE NOT TO EVACUATE THE KING DAVID HOTEL.

On the other hand, the goal of the Hamas homicidal suicide bombers is to kill as many children, senior citizens and civilian Israelis as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 12:56 PM

Can't explain away the Lavon Affair (in which Israeli secret agents bombed civilian and government targets in Egypt and tried to blame it on the Egyptians), quite so easily though, can you, Guest, Begin the Beguine?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 12:59 PM

Who among us is defending suicide bombers?

What do you intend to do...try and talk to them now or just keep trying to kill them all forever and ever? Which of those 2 goals might yield a more useful result?

If you talk to them will they talk to you? Probably. If you keep killing them, will they keep killing you? Most certainly.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 01:19 PM

The Lavon Affair mostly involved Egyptian Jews, with incompetent leadership by Israeli agents, and is as remarkable for the viciousness of the Egyptian response as for the stupidity of the perpetrators.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,Begin the Beguine
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 01:23 PM

CarolC,

Again the intended "victims" in the Lavon Affair were buildings not people. However, I make no excuses for it. It was wrong (btw, I think the King David bombing was wrong too) and many heads in Israel rolled because of it.

Just for the record, CarolC, I too am against the occupation and want it ended.

My posting was a response to the ridiculous moral equivalency of the King David Hotel bombing with Hamas' homicidal suicide bombings aimed at civilians.

Let it not be forgotten that the goal of Palestinian terrorism is specifically to provoke over the top responses from Israel that will result in greater losses to the Palestinians. The leaders of Hamas and other terrorist groups know that greater losses of Palestinian life will be the consequence of their actions. They don't care. To them, their own people are worth more as dead "martyrs" than they are alive. They are evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 01:26 PM

Nevertheless, it is an example of Israeli terrorism. There is a long list of terrorism committed by the Irgun and and other Israelis and Jews in the Middle East. And they didn't care who they killed... women, children... it didn't matter to them.

If we are going to condemn terrorism, let's condemn ALL terrorism, instead of making excuses for the terrorism that is committed by those on the side you support and only condemning those acts committed by the other side.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 01:36 PM

Some more background information about the Lavon Affair, along with quite a bit of other pertinent information, from Livia Rockach (Moshe Sharett's daughter), and from Moshe Sharett's personal diary...

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/essays/rokach.html#CHAPTER%207%20The%20Lavon%20Affair:%20Terrorism%20to%20Coerce%20the%20West

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/essays/rokach.html#APPENDIX%204%20%20The%20Lavon%20Affair

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 01:38 PM

No, the intended victims were the Egyptians. The Lavon Affair was specifically for the purpose of poisoning relations between Egypt and the West, which means that ALL Egyptians, women, children, old men, etc. were the intended victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,Begin the Beguine
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 01:39 PM

CarolC,

You are the one who has made a Mudcat career out of one-sided condemnations of the actions in the Middle East.

Again, my pointing out the difference in a specific attack on a British military target from the type of attack specificially aimed at children and other civilians should not be taken as any kind of support for such an action.

I hereby condemn all terrorist attacks.

CarolC, what do you say about the murderers of Shmuel Zargari? Shmuel was only 11 months old when he died in his mother's arms as they rode the No. 2 bus in Jerusalem when a Palestinian suicide bomber killed him and 21 others on August 19, 2003.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 01:50 PM

Let it not be forgotten that the goal of Palestinian terrorism is specifically to provoke over the top responses from Israel that will result in greater losses to the Palestinians. The leaders of Hamas and other terrorist groups know that greater losses of Palestinian life will be the consequence of their actions. They don't care. To them, their own people are worth more as dead "martyrs" than they are alive. They are evil.

Yes, that is the goal of Hamas. And I think "evil" is not too strong a word for people who would do such things.

The goal of Israeli terrorism has always been the following: 1.) to terrorise local Arab populations for the purpose of getting them to vacate their homes and villages, 2.) to convnice the British to leave Palestine, 3.) to incite hatred of and violence toward Arabs generally and Palestinians specifically, 4.) to manipulate Western governments to give military and other financial aid to Israel, and to manipulate Western governments into helping Israel wage war against whomever Israel wanted to wage war against, and 5.) to cause instability in other countries for the purpose of causing them to break up into warring factions.

The fact is that many tens of thousands of innocent civilians, women, children, old and young men, have died because of these agendas and these acts. We do not help any innocent non-combatants by glossing over them or sweeping them under the carpet. These campaigns against the people Israel would like to conquer and/or subjugate are ongoing, and we should be drawing attention to them, not covering them up. And if what Hamas is doing is "evil", then so is what is being done by Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 01:55 PM

I condemn ALL terrorist acts, and all killings of civilians, including those committed against Israelis, Guest,Begin the Beguine, and have done so many times.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:23 PM

I find it curious that although Hamas was democratically elected, the Bush administration does not recognize their right to govern.

That leaves me to believe that Bush only believes in democracy when 'his people' when an election.

Actually, this proves that Bush is not at all interested in democracy in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:31 PM

How many democracies are there in the Middle East?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:35 PM

That's strictly a matter of opinion.

How many are there in North America?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:37 PM

"That's strictly a matter of opinion."

So gimme a friggin' opinion and don't answer a question with a question!

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:38 PM

BTW, Shatner is NOT a very good actor. That's another matter of opinion. One held by most sane people on the planet.

Serious now: How many democracies in the Middle East?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:45 PM

Guest, Bush has declared already that a democracy can make a mistake. There's did for sure.

Guest, I am sure it is also Bush's fault that you are constipated.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:51 PM

Why do bagels have holes?

I'll let Martin answer that for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:53 PM

Holy flip. Gettin' touchy, aren't we? Awrighttt...I figger...ya got, like, one in Isreal, eh? I think so. Then...ya got one in Eye-Raq. Cos Bush says he is bringin' democracy to Eye-Raq, and he would not lie, eh? Then...ya got one in Eye-Ran cos they just re-elected that there guy that...no, wait...they did not RE-elect him cos he was mahor of the capital city before so...okay they EEE-lected him. Ya got an election, ya got a demorcacy, that's what they tell me. Then ya got Turkey. I think they had elections there too, eh? holy flip. that makes...5! Then ya got the Pastelininas and they elected Hummus. that makes 6. Geez. It's breakin' out all over the flippin' place. They got more democracy there than we do here.

Them other places like Syria and Myangmar and the Vatican, though...and North Korea...are not democracyhs so I expect Bush will invade 'em soon and save those poor peo[ple from thesmeslevs before it's, like, too late.

- Shane

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:09 PM

Good artile here from BBC regarding Democracies in the Middle East.

Also, Little Hawk. Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:13 PM

No problem. ;-) Shane is on the loose tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:15 PM

I have seen that written so many time the wrong way that now I don't know whether it is right or not: "Shane is on the loose tonight." or should it be "Shane is on the lose tonight."?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 01:13 AM

An apartheid state cannot claim to be a democracy. As long as Israel claims the West Bank and East Jerusalem (or as they call the area, Judea and Samaria) as a part of Israel, it is an apartheid state, and therefore not a democracy.

That's the dilemma they face. They're like the monkey with its hand stuck in the trap because it won't let go of the nut. They can't be a democracy until they let go of the occupied areas, or extend the same rights to the people in those areas that are enjoyed by the Jews in Israel proper (not all of which, by the way, are enjoyed by the people in Israel who are not Jewish).

But if they give the people in the occupied areas the same rights (right of citizenship, for instance) as in Israel proper, then they face the probability that Jews eventually will not be the majority in Israel.

It really isn't possible to hold someone else down without holding yourself down at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 02:08 AM

Thats right. If majority rules, Israel is in big trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:42 AM

I'm curious, Carol. Why the before 1967 borders and not for instance the 1948 borders or the pre-1948 borders? What makes a border originating from a war acceptable to you?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 12:20 PM

It's a compromise, Wolfgang. The most just and fair arrangement from the Palestinian perspective would be to have the land Israel took from them that was outside the area that was given to Israel by the UN, given back to them. However, that would cause quite a lot of problems for the Israelis who live in those areas. So the 1967 borders are a difficult, but just barely (for the Palestinians) workable compromise.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 12:32 PM

since the christian religion evolved from judaism, shouldn't it then follow that the area called 'israel' is also the 'homeland' of christians?

taking this apparent 'right of occupation' further, other theologies developed from christian belief could also have claims in the region.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,New guest
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:01 AM

Carole says The goal of Israeli terrorism has always been the following: "1.) to terrorise local Arab populations for the purpose of getting them to vacate their homes and villages, 2.) to convnice the British to leave Palestine, 3.) to incite hatred of and violence toward Arabs generally and Palestinians specifically, 4.) to manipulate Western governments to give military and other financial aid to Israel, and to manipulate Western governments into helping Israel wage war against whomever Israel wanted to wage war against, and 5.) to cause instability in other countries for the purpose of causing them to break up into warring factions."

First of all the use of the words "Israeli terrorism" is a typical anti- Israeli proaganda ploy ,and most intelligent people sense that right away. All of her assertions are typical proaganda statements except for perhaps #2.
The motives for Israeli retaliation for Palestinian suicide attacks, although horiific they may be, doesn't come close to compare with the motives of these murderous militants who are no different than those that attacked The World Trade Centre.

Israelis live with the Arab population in their country and many Arabs are quite happy being citizens of Israel and working and living and practicing their religion amongst the Jewish population.

Democracy has finally come to Palestine, and now they have elected those who are directly responsible for many murderous acts. They do not recognize ANY part of Israel, and want nothing more than the removal of Israel and all the Jews living there, and to establish a strict Islamic state - THIS IS FACT, NOT PROPAGANDA. No negotiation will be possible unless they change this, and it appears they won't. Is this how the Palestinians think they will be accepted amongst the other nations in the civilised world?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,Larry k
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 09:06 AM

Peace comes through total victory of the other side.   Let me repeat.    Peace comes after total victory over the other side.

Peace didn't come with Hitler from negotiations.    The death of millions of people came through negotiations.   Peace came after total victory over the other side.   Today we are at peace with Germany.

Slavery didn't end through negotiations.   Negotiations brought us a contitution and bill of rights, but not an end to slavery.   Slavery ended through total victory over the south.   "unconditional surrender" I think was the term.   Today, everyone in the USA (except for isolated morons) opposes slavery.

Peace will come with the Palestinians after enough of them have been killed so that the remainder of them embrace peace over terrorism.   To quote Glodie "they must love their childrem more than they hate Israel".   

We need to change the hearts of the Palestinians.   From beating to non beating.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 09:14 AM

Nice one, Larry K - First you take their homes, then you take their lives.
Nice to see the tenets of modern Zionism spelled out so succinctly. And so reasonably too; a neat advocacy of a final solution, I feel.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 09:29 AM

We need to change the hearts of the Palestinians.   From beating to non beating.

I usually don't comment the language sued by Mudcat right wingers. I take it as granted that most here disagree with their arguments. But that's much worse than what I usually read:

'Only a dead Palestinian is a good Palestinian.' Incitement to and praise of genocide it is. That's a fundamentally different idea from the original Zionism.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 09:52 AM

I hate sense altering typos: 'sued' should be read 'used'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,Begin the Beguine
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 09:56 AM

The most just and fair arrangement from the Palestinian perspective would be to have the land Israel took from them that was outside the area that was given to Israel by the UN, given back to them. However, that would cause quite a lot of problems for the Israelis who live in those areas. So the 1967 borders are a difficult, but just barely (for the Palestinians) workable compromise.

CarolC,

You totally misrepresent the "Palestinian perspective" to further your own agenda. Despite your devotion to what you see as the Palestinian cause, YOU do not represent the Palestinian people. No more than Martin Gibson represents the Israeli perspective.

The Palestinians have just voted in an election and elected a government whose platform calls for an Islamic state on every inch of Israel. That, CarolC, is the "Palestinian perspective."

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 10:17 AM

Begin the Beguine,

luckily it is only one Palestinian perspective. I have said it in another thread: The majority of the Hamas voters has voted for them out of anger about a corrupt government and for what they perceive them do have done on a local level of administration and not because they share that particular demand in the charter. European observers say that roughly 70% of the Palestinians would agree with a two state solution.

I can understand if Israel is wary, I would be too in their place. But any movement coming from a terrorist background and being elected into government needs some time to adjust. Demands that the Hamas should immediately change are counterproductive. Let's wait and see. Give them a chance and you might even give peace a chance. Perhaps I'm too optimistic but we'll see.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 10:30 AM

Wolfgang,
If your nexdoor neighbour would threaten you with death, and extinction and is serious about it, are you about to talk friendly with him - no you would go immediately to the police to report him.
Would the Jews have been able to negotiate with the Nazis - (are you a Nazi?) I think Jews have become a bit wary of this kind of senerio in their history- don't you think? Israelis will give Hamas recognition, as they were willing to do with the PLO when they changed their charter but only when Hamas will signal some peaceful intentions. Get used to that reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,Begin the Beguine
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 10:32 AM

Wolfgang,

All I'm saying is that as the now-democratically-elected government of the Palestinians, it is Hamas, not CarolC, who have the legitimacy to speak on behalf of the "Palestinian perspective."

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,American observer
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 10:46 AM

According to Wolfgang, "European observers say that roughly 70% of the Palestinians would agree with a two state solution."

But that's not what the Palestinians voted for.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,Bill the Collie
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 12:02 PM

Y cant people be nice?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 11:56 AM

Neighborhood Bully by Bob Dylan

Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man,
His enemies say he's on their land.
They got him outnumbered about a million to one,
He got no place to escape to, no place to run.
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully just lives to survive,
He's criticized and condemned for being alive.
He's not supposed to fight back, he's supposed to have thick skin,
He's supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in.
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land,
He's wandered the earth an exiled man.
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn,
He's always on trial for just being born.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized,
Old women condemned him, said he should apologize.
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad.
The bombs were meant for him.
He was supposed to feel bad.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him,
'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac.
He's the neighborhood bully.

He got no allies to really speak of.
What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love.
He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace,
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease.
Now, they wouldn't hurt a fly.
To hurt one they would weep.
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Every empire that's enslaved him is gone,
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon.
He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand,
In bed with nobody, under no one's command.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Now his holiest books have been trampled upon,
No contract he signed was worth what it was written on.
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth,
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health.
He's the neighborhood bully.

What's anybody indebted to him for?
Nothin', they say.
He just likes to cause war.
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed,
They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed.
He's the neighborhood bully.

What has he done to wear so many scars?
Does he change the course of rivers?
Does he pollute the moon and stars?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill,
Running out the clock, time standing still,
Neighborhood bully.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 11:58 AM

The End Of A Pointed Gun By Grit Laskin

I've laboured through two world wars
An old war that still fights on
I'll dare any man says I've not worked
This land that I stand upon
A homeland both free and strong
To harbour my only son
I hoped he'd never see as I
The end of a pointed gun

My nation and my son, my nation and my son
One found its birth, one found his death
At the end of a pointed gun

Oh praised be Olympiad
Was echoed the whole world round
Nation to nation unified
On one chosen stretch of ground
Oh proud were the boys as mine
To play for their own country
I wish to God he'd never gone
But stayed with his family

My nation and my son, my nation and my son
One found its birth, one found his death
At the end of a pointed gun

The games scarcely had begun
When out of each winner's joy
Bloodshed rose unexpectedly
Eleven dead and one my boy
How does a father mourn
His murdered hopes and dreams?
How on this earth can he escape
The agonies he has seen?

My nation and my son, my nation and my son
One found its birth, one found his death
At the end of a pointed gun

I've laboured through two world wars
An old war that still fights on
I'll dare any man says I've not worked
This land my boy rests upon

My nation and my son, my nation and my son
One found its birth, one found his death
At the end of a pointed gun

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:56 PM

"Peace will come with the Palestinians after enough of them have been killed so that the remainder of them embrace peace over terrorism.   To quote Glodie "they must love their childrem more than they hate Israel".   
We need to change the hearts of the Palestinians.   From beating to non beating."


Holocaust Part Two:- "Payback"............Yeah! That's the way to win hearts and minds.........NOT!

Don T.