BS: More Insult to the Poor

Subject: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:06 PM

I am outraged.

These Medicaid cuts are not frills. For 33 years I've worked with indigent populations. There is no longer a 'safety net' worthy of the name. Everyday I see families, including working families, and disabled individuals have to decide, "Do we eat, do we pay the rent, or do I get my insulin?" I have never witnessed such desparation and dispair.

PEOPLE IN THE USA ARE DYING BECAUSE THEY ARE POOR. And believe me, if your income is below the "poverty line" you are desparately poor.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:12 PM

The Bush Health Plan:

Don't Get Sick.

He must shop at Walmart.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:17 PM

Make that 'desperate'

(I can spell werds)

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:24 PM

But do you have any solution other than just ranting about a problem that everyone knows is real?

Perhaps you should look in your socialist handbook?

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:11 AM

Does everyone know it is a problem that is real? If true, there sure are a lot of incredibly selfish, compassionless people in this country.

And I sure do have solutions. A few ideas are to raise taxes, including my own. I don't have much, but I can do with less than I have if it means some one else's child doesn't suffer from malnutrition. Get out of Iraq. Rearrange domestic spending priorities.   Work to change values so that 'conspicuous consumption' is no longer a virtue.

And you know what, Martin? Every day for the past 33 years I've gotten up, gone out, and worked hard to try to help find workable solutions. To find ways to help people to fill essential gaps. To help people try to learn the life skills they need to live and survive, if not to thrive. To link people with jobs, training, medical care, food resources, day care, elder care, burial expenses.

I don't need to read anybody else's handbook. I've got the knowledge, the skills, the training and the first-hand, front-line, up close and in person experience to know. I've read the research and the cost/benefit analyses about what works and what doesn't and I have seen that research ignored again and again. I have literally walked with people down their dying path because they could not get essential medical care where medical care is plentiful and world class for those who can afford it. I have gone out into the mall parking lots to try to assist families with young children living in cars and shelters because, in spite of working full time, they don't make a living wage and housing costs are inflated.

Have I solved the big problems? No. Do I have all the absolute answers? No. But a day at a time, a person or a family or an issue at a time, a meal or a month's rent at a time, have I participated in solutions?

You are damn straight I have.

I'm not about philosophy, Martin. I'm not about politics anymore than I have to be in order to try to see people not starve in the midst of plenty. I am about action, one on one. I am about looking for proactive ways to make a positive difference in the world one life at a time, if that is all I can effect. I put my money and my lifework where my mouth is. I'm not talking theory, little big man. I'm not talking petty little pissing matches with words.

Bug off.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Kaleea
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:28 AM

Since I was literally a kid, I worked. I paid taxes. 5 years ago next month, while minding my own business waiting at a red light, I was rear-ended. Due to that, I am now disabled. I went without medical for years, and now do not have a dr. My records were "lost" and the healthcare system cannot seem to find them anywhere, therefore, I would have to have all the tests & exams all over again for a dr to determine what has already been determined, much less start on a new avenue of treatment. A dr office will not accept "2nd hand" records from the office of my attorney.
I now have medicare, which does not pay for much. They find a way to not pay for most dr visits. There is a deductible. Then there is the fact that many drs won't take medicare because of the insane paperwork AND the fact that medicare will only pay a small predetermined portion of the dr fee. The RX coverage is a joke. To sum it up, I cannot afford to go to a dr. Therefore I am in horrendous pain everyday of my life. No dr will prescribe pain meds to me just because I say that all this has happened to me, they require tests to prove all of the injuries. Congress wants to
If medicaid could pay for the portions that medicare won't, then what is wrong with me having medicaid? Some people believe that "we" are living in freedom & equality in the USA, but some of us are less free than others.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:56 AM

Exactly, Kaleea.

And are you among the many who had to get a lawyer to finally get your disability? Who had to wait 2 to 3 years, unable to work, getting deeper and deeper into debt, perhaps losing your home, your car, etc., before you finally began to receive your disability? Are you one of those people who do not have family with enough resources to have provided a safety net?

And now that you have the disability, can you live on it and just meet your basic needs, including medical care? Can you pay off the debt you had to get into, just to survive?

People, Kaleea's story is not the exception. It is the rule.

And it does not have to be this way.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 10:16 AM

"But do you have any solution other than just ranting about a problem that everyone knows is real?"

Martin, that's what leaders are elected to do: care for all the citizens of a country.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 10:17 AM

Janie, looks to me like your voice is emerging.... onto the public scene. And who knows where THAT may lead! [hmmmm.... reflect]

You go, girl!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:12 AM

Easy-peasy. Put $5 per gallon tax on petrol (that'll bring the pump price up to roughly the same as we pay in the UK) and use it to pay for a proper healthcare system which doesn't rely on an individual's personal wealth, and where anyone who needs treatment gets it free at the point of delivery.

Hopefully it'll get rid of a lot of penis-subsitute SUVs and reduce pollution at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:24 AM

"Martin, that's what leaders are elected to do: care for all the citizens of a country."

I couldn't agree more with that statement. But what does the word "care" actually insinuate?

To provide opportunities so that these people have ways of pulling themselves out of the situation that they're in or to just keep throwing money at them in hopes that they will somehow be motivated to get up and start making lives better for themselves.

If we decide to raise taxes and just give them the money then nothing will be accomplished. They will just be complacent to sit on their butts and wait for the check to come in each month.

If taxes need to be raised, which I don't believe they need to be, then let's invest the money corporately so that the country's businesses will invest them in a way to increase the labor needs and provide even more high paying jobs than what's already available right now.

The fact that the piece in the news yesterday that according to spending statistics people are spending more than they're making is just telling me that even though consumer confidence is high, many people are living beyond their means.

If people are making the conscience choice of living beyond their means because Billy wants a new game system or Sally wants to stay with the current fashion, then why raise my taxes because of the bad spending decisions that another family decides to make for themselves?

If we need to raise taxes then let's not only invest it corporately but let's use part of it for education to teach Economics 101 to the masses that are currently living beyond their means. Evidently, they weren't listening on the day they taught that if you don't have it then you can't spend it.

Let's stop throwing good money after bad and if it needs to happen then let's invest it wisely instead of just increasing a monthly welfare check.

We would insulting them far more by doing that instead of continuing to provide opportunities for them to better themselves.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Crystal
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:24 AM

Put up the tax on tobacco, Junk food and alcohol as well as petrol. Also make people pay a one off tax when they buy a car, then tax any upgrades they want to make, after all those are four big killers.

Of course you could always try taxing big buisnesses rather that allowing them to tell you that you owe them money! I guess that one is a bit too revolutionary though!

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:47 AM

"Evidently, they weren't listening on the day they taught that if you don't have it then you can't spend it." susu's hubby

Guess our government wasn't listening that day either, huh.

SH, there are a LOT of factual errors and misperceptions in your screed but I'm learning to save ammunition for when it might make a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:49 AM

Give serving Congressfolk the same benefits as all other Federal employees. Pay them the prevailing wage in their home district, with any raise to be approved by the people in their home district.

Then make them move to the home district and telecommute to work.

Move the Whitehouse to the geographical center of the US and distribute the various agencies around the country. They can telecommunicate. Political appointees would be paid the prevailing wage in the district, civil service would make current civil service wages.

What's the problem? The costs couldn't be much more than we're paying now, and it would be a one-time expense.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Snoozer
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:53 AM

The last line of the article that Janie provided a link to says that this bill also "provides up to $1.5 billion to help some consumers buy converter boxes so existing televisions do not go dark after the transition." (the transition being to mandatory digital service).

So don't worry, you might lose your life-saving prescriptions, but you won't lose your TV service!

Snoozer (shaking her head at the absurdity of it all...)

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:08 PM

SH--when you actually know what you are talking about, come on back in. Like so many other "I've got mine" people, you operate from false assumptions and beliefs with no first hand knowledge or experience on which to base your opinion. You buy into the myth of the lazy, unworthy poor. Guess what? The poor are just like the rest of us, with the same mix of virtues and vices that you find in any other segment of the population.

Do you know what "disabled" means? It means not able to work.

Do you know what full time employment means? It means a person is working full-time. How many housekeepers, bodyshop repairmen, waitresses, cooks, nurses aides, landscape employees, custodians, dental assistants, Dr. Office receptionists, sales clerks, make enough money to pay the rent on the 25 year old 12x60 trailer with rotten floors,, the utilities, the car payment, the insurance, the property taxes, the food, the dental care, the $100 a month prescription, and the transmission replacement when it goes on the cheapest car they could find to get to and from work. (Guess what, low cost mass transit exists in very few places in this country.) Train 'em for better jobs? What if their IQ is below 90? What if they have medical problems that limit their ability to do manual or physically demanding work? And if they all did get trained up to make even $40,000 a year--then who provides all those services that they were providing?

YOU DO NOT GET IT!

If you are a single individual who worked and worked hard and was pretty well paid, and then became disabled when you were 30 or 35 years old, you are going to draw $800 to $1000 a month on disability.

You are not going to be able to live within your means, because that money won't cover basic needs. What should that person eliminate? Running water? Heat? Antipsychotic medications? Food? Should they give up the substandard housing that still cost $600 to $800 a month in the part of the country in which I live?

I SAY, AND I SAY IT LOUDLY that when people in this country are NOT ABLE (not ABLE--get it?)TO FEED THEMSELVES OR THEIR KIDS, WHEN THEY CAN NOT GET BASIC HEALTH CARE, WHEN THEY CANNOT KEEP THE UTILITIES ON, not because of scarcity and not because of lack of 'want to', that I don't give a rat's ass about who pays more than their 'fair share.' I will gladly pay more than my 'fair share.' And what about the kids of the parents without the want to? Let 'em starve--sins of the fathers and all that?

What is wrong with you! And with millions like you.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:16 PM

Janie, Crystal, you're my kinda guys! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 01:27 PM

Goodonya, Janie!! We are more than willing to pay more, too, in order for others to have basic needs met. I think you would be very interested in listening to yesterday's edition of "Colorado Matters" on our NPR station. It is available online: CLick Here and scroll down to Wednesday, Feb 1, Homelessness I and II. I haven't heard the second part, but the first one dealt with a lot of what is being talked about here, including health care, housing, childcare, job training, etc. Both programs feature women who are at the head of ending homelessness in Denver and Philadelphia through direct actions and compassion.

I just got an alert on how poor people are also being thwarted by the IRS. One may find more by doing a search on google, but here is the gist, from Jan. 10th:

"The Internal Revenue Service freezes tens of thousands of tax refunds it deems questionable without telling people that they're suspected of fraud, the nation's taxpayer advocate said Tuesday."

75% of those people effected by this are at poverty level according to the study.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 02:33 PM

And understand, please, that in real life (not aggregate and opportunistically manipulated statistics) one actually NEEDS somewhere between 200% and 250% of the federal poverty level to just barely meet BASIC needs.

    Ain't talking cable tv. Ain't even talkin' old computer. Ain't talkin' money for the kids to go on school field trips. Ain't talkin' stewmeat or whole fryer chicken. Not talkin' fresh veggies or fruit. I'm talking day-old thriftshop bread. I'm talking worn-out clothes that don't fit from Goodwill. I'm talking shutting off the heat everywhere but the living room and bedding down the kids in the floor there for the winter. I'm talking about no money to buy a $10.00 window fan for when it is 95 degrees day after day in a third floor flat.

    I don't think we actually can design programs that will end poverty, though we can work in that direction. I understand that poverty is a multifaceted, complex matrix of personal and societal choices. I don't believe in Utopia. However level the playing field, the people on it are going to differ in their talents, strengths and resources. There are and will be winners and losers. But widespread malnutrition, homelessness and lack of minimally adequate healthcare do not have to exist in this country.

We really and truly did have a social safety net in this country. The weaving of it started with the New Deal. It was adequately but not excessively completed during the time of Johnson's Great Society. During the time of the Reagan administration, threads started being cut, and has been steadily unravelled since then, whether the Democrats or the Republicans were in power.

I blame the politicians, yes. But I also blame the voting public who has let it continue, from ignorance,denial,undocumented assumptions, fear and plain old selfishness.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 02:55 PM

What we have is a system where the poor, as a class, serve a purpose to keep all the other classes in line. Not just in the US. Any society governed by capitalism. We ALL benefit from that system, or we might invent something better.

At various times in the US, government aid to the poor has been looked at as either a privilege or a right. We're still going around about that-- about what a "free society" is and to what it is obligated. (That definition is still governed by the vote, and since the poor are outnumbered, guess who loses?) Right now, the US scale is tipped toward "privilege."

Part of what keeps it all in place is the systematic imposition of numerous artificial divisions that separate people of different colors and cultures. Without those divisions, people would find agreement about inventing (and attempting to live out) a new system.

These efforts have been made from time to time. Mudcat, which is so in love with division that it perpetuates it with threads that purport to "discuss" differences (but which always seem to devolve into divisively rigid stereotype-wars), is not a likely environment for united effort to take root and flourish-- it would need a common belief of some sort. We can't even agree on what "folk Music" is or should be. :~)

What's the solution? I would submit, "to keep trying to be smarter every day of our lives and to keep trying to live what we say we believe, whatever that may entail...." One might call that, "The Human Struggle."

I think also we would benefit from regular screenings of the movie, "Soylent Green," as we edge closer and closer to its realities every day.

As I have often said, I am not an optimist. I persist against discouragement, but I am not optimistic.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 03:09 PM

Hubby,

I have no wish to waste time arguing with you. The medical system in the US is beyond the reach of the poor. You can twist that and play with it any way you want. Them wot's got, got; them wot don't don't. If you don't care about people who are poor, fine. No one can force you to have a moral conscience. Maybe not all people have life as good as you do.

Care means care. You split words and fuck around with meanings when what I meant was clear. I have no wish to play semantic games with you. Goodbye.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: LilyFestre
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 04:25 PM

My mother-in-law is disabled. She gets her income from disability. If there were no food banks in this area, and no one to give her a helping hand, the woman would starve to death. $700.00 a month would be a luxury to her. Try living on that for a month...rent, meds, food, utilites...in that order. She has no car. She has no television. There is no mass transit in this area. Good luck people.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 04:30 PM

Thanks for a couple of reminders, Susan and Peace.

    Arghhh....In real action, I don't much concern myself with blame. I try hard to simply focus on what I can do, and on doing the best I can at the micro-level. I am angry and I am heartsick and I am frustrated and tired and I am aware that I am on a rant on this thread. I hate feeling helpless. I hate the look in the eyes of the people I serve when they hit a brick wall that neither of us, working together and separately can find a way over, or around, or through. There have always been brick walls in my work, just not so many of them. There are fewer alternative routes.

    The only people on this thread who will hear what I am saying sing in the same choir as do I. It is the people who experience or observe my life and work directly that I really have the opportunity to influence, and I know that. But sometimes, to keep going, I just gotta rant.

    Thanks for listening.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 04:36 PM

Bruce,


I have twisted no words. I have not engaged in a "game" of semantics. What we have here is two different about what the word "care" insinuates.

Obviously, your idea along with many others in here is to just throw money at them and say here you go and offer yourselves up as gods and say "Look at me....I'm helping the poor."

Will that help them? Sure it will. Makes you look good too. It's just a quick fix. No substance.

But that's where you and your minions and I differ. What I proposed is a program to actually help them in the long term and for them to be personally responsible for their lot in life. If they do not want to take advantage of the programs that are currently available or take advantage of even something simple as going to their local library, where memberships are free, I hear, and reading a book or getting on the internet and educating themselves about whatever they are interested in and actually taking an active role on bettering themselves then, I'm NOT sorry to say it, I have absolutely NO compassion for them.

If somebody comes to me and truly needs help that will sustain them until they can get on their feet and get over the humps that have been dealt to them then I have no problem helping that person. I've done it many times. But if you ask me to give money that I know will go to people who EXPECT it for nothing in return and no desire other than to sit there and just collect that check month after month, then that's where I've got the problem.

Nobody should be on chronic welfare. The system we have actually promotes that and encourages that. What you and your buddies are talking about here will actually do nothing but strengthen that system and make it harder to turn it into what it actually should be.

If we're going to help them then let's truly help them and stop putting bandaids on a gaping wound.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 04:42 PM

Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 04:43 PM

See what I mean?

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 04:44 PM

Not referring to your post, Cluin, but to the one above it.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 04:47 PM

I know, Janie.

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 04:51 PM

Ha!
J

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 05:00 PM

Janie, I work hard also for as long as you have. I pay my taxes, pay my bills, give to charities, etc.

Your anger is only going to give you a heart attack.

You can change a little but have very little impact on the whole good. Instead of wasting your time here ranting on how great you are, find a candidate who can make a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: LilyFestre
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 05:13 PM

Susu's Hubby (thank God he's not mine...I'd have to club him over the head with a brick),

    I don't think what you are seeing here is Peace and his minions...I think what you ARE seeing here are people who have either been poor, are poor, or work with the poor....in other words, people with experience. Why is it that you think everyone who receives one form of welfare or another is lazy and has NO desire to better themselves or their lives? Do you think there is one human being on this planet that doesn't want something better for themselves at every level along the way?

I guess since you have clearly stated that you have no compassion for those who live in poverty that there isn't much that anyone can say to you...it seems your mind is made up. I would like to ask you though, how do you think the folks who live in rural America can get to the library to read those books? Some places are lucky enough to have small libraries in the post offices and there are even some bookmobiles around here that folks can access. Libraries are great, if not the best resource around for educating oneself...but a body has to be able to get to the library. Our local town library doesn't have computers so there goes your theory about getting on the internet. The next town over...about 30 miles away does have a library with, I think, 6 computers. So...what your post says to me is that you live in an urban area where there is easy access to everything.

And programs? Yeah...let's pretend the transportation is not an issue...now how about availability on the program's part? Is there ample room in each class? Are the classes during the day? Remember, these people have children...so if they are evening programs, you better have some form of child care....heck, you'd need it either way as not all children are of school age.

And I don't know about your neck of the woods, but jobs here are hard to come by as they are in most rural communities. Sure, there are minimum wage jobs that require little to no training but what is the incentive of taking that kind of job when you will lose so many benefits including medical coverage for your child? Now I know there are back to work programs and other types of programs that are designed to help people get back on their feet without losing all the benefits...but if it were to REALLY be a workable kind of program, it should cover much more, giving more incentives for people to go to work.

I think you live in a world that has NO idea what poverty really is and that you also have very little understanding of basic human instinct. Get a grip, look around...do those folks living on the street look happy to you? How about their kids? Do the ones who live in cars look healthy? Would you hire someone who came into your place of business for an interview if they reeked of kerosene? If they weren't exactly presentable? What if they had no experience?

Some folks can only afford to heat one room of their home with kerosene....the smell follows you everywhere. Brand new spanking clean interview clothes are hard to come buy (even thrift shop clothes are hard to come by in many places) and haircuts cost money you know....and because programs are either packed to capacity or non-existant, many folks aren't going to have the training.

These folks are still looking for work...trying to do something for themselves and their families....but you will most likely turn them away and then you and people like you, have no compassion for people who desparately NEED help.

Get a clue, join the real world for just 5 minutes and I think you'll clearly see where the rest of us are coming from.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: LilyFestre
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 05:18 PM

Martin,

   Finding a great candidate is a swell idea BUT you know as well as I do that the people who DO have the ability to make sweeping changes care very little about the folks who have empty cupboards or can't afford their medications.

   I think that ALL elected officials were required to live on the average income of what their constituants (sp?) do for 1 year, we would see much more attention paid to the little man who struggles daily to make ends meet. I know that even the county clowns around here...er...wait...I meant commissioners....yeah...uh huh...that's what I meant....are incredibly out of touch with how the local population lives.

   Yes, I also know that it's a voting issue...but sometimes the choices are to pick the lesser of two evils.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: LilyFestre
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 05:19 PM

That should read...if ALL elected officials were required...blah blah blah.

Sorry.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 05:28 PM

Ain't nothin' great or special about me. Just establishing that my view has some firm ground under it, based on training and experience. Silly me for thinking that the basis for my views should matter for those who read them to have an idea of how seriously to consider them.

Janie

I

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 05:39 PM

And keep ranting, Janie-- I think the venting is doing you some good. Can't wait to see what action you take once you get warmed up!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 06:48 PM

I was just talking to a friend who was once a poor, single mother like myself. Luckily, we live in Canada and found a way out. We both agreed that we are happy to work to escape the stress of paying the rent and putting food on the table. It so nice not to have to worry about it anymore. Until you have had that experience, you really don't know how tough it is.

As far as taxes go, I'll gladly pay taxes if I know it is to benefit the less able.

I don't know how anyone can support another cut to the impoverished but agree to billions of dollars going to support the invasion of Iraq. I guess, according to Susu's hubby and Martin, its O.K. to line the pockets of arms dealers and building contractors at the expense of the poor. Some people have their priorities ass-backwards.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 06:56 PM

'Obviously, your idea along with many others in here is to just throw money at them and say here you go and offer yourselves up as gods and say "Look at me....I'm helping the poor."'

You are sooo wrong. First, I have no money to throw at anything, poor or not. Second, if I did have money and was investing it in people it would go to training and education while at the same time seeing that their families are supported. You have some idiotic notion that I think a welfare state is a good thing. Absolutely not. I think it is a national disgrace that any country in the world should have to have such a thing. That includes Canada.

The simplistic notion you seem to put forth is that people receiving social assistance LIKE receiving social assistance. WRONG! But if the option is that a single mom with kids (or a single dad with kids) can just go off to better her or himself and leave the kids with some benevolent association for the day and then stop by the food bank on the way home to get food and go panhandle for money to get medicine when things ain't so good--grow up for God's sake. You remind me of Margaret Mitchell who 'went on welfare' for a month. Drove her car to shop for bargains; got her meds through her health plan--no cost; used her household electricity and heat and didn't have to include rent in the month's bills. Then the vacuous gal turned around to national newspapers and said words much like, "Gee, I don't see what these people are complaining about." Save your typing/breath/ink on me. No sale here!

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 07:13 PM

Know what else Martin? I've also done the Macro work. I've worked politically, I've served on legislative review committees. I've lobbied, written State policies and programs, responded to legislative requests for imput. I've served on boards of directors for non-profit and professional organizations involved with advocacy for disadvantaged populations. I've participated in and helped evaluate social research. And I have not missed voting in an election since I turned 18.

Some people are called to make beautiful furniture. Some to make or play guitars. Some are called to serve--as maids or as social workers. Some find meaning in being an accountant or a CEO. There are people here passionate about their music--you may be one of them. I love music, I love singing, but I don't know diddlysquat about what makes a good guitar. I'll read the threads on it though, and weigh and learn from the varying opinions--paying closer attention to those that are best informed, most experienced, most knowledgable about guitars, and wonder about how much weight to give to the opinions of those about whom I have know idea what their experience or expertise might be.

I am passionate about social work with disadvantaged and indigent people in the USA. And I am an expert in that field. Not the most expert or the only expert, but not very many direct practitioners have had the wide range of experience that I have. That doesn't make me great or special. But it sure as hell makes me worth listening to.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 07:15 PM

"That doesn't make me great or special. But it sure as hell makes me worth listening to."

Damned straight to that, Janie.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 07:50 PM

Martin,

Please...

Use your own graphic vocabulary to fill in the rest---and consider yourself thoroughly rebuked---and silenced!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 08:07 PM

Janie, yes I do commend you for the work you do and I hope that you do make a difference. Obviously you will not fix it all. But the fact remains that many, not all, are poor because they are ignorant, lazy, idiots, never applied themselves, are looking for a handout, and are looking to take advantage of someone.

If you have helped many of the poor, and I'm glad you have, somewhere along the line you have also come in to contact with this element of the poor.

So Art, I am far from silenced and far from rebuked.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 08:12 PM

America divides into 5 income quintiles. The top quintile has been greedily expanding its take for many years at the expense of all the others. The top 20% make 48% of the money income in the USA and the top 5% alone get 21%, the bottom quintile gets 4.1%. This is not data from some fringe group, it's the Census Bureau.

Wall street investment bankers gave them selves 18 BILLION in Christmas bonuses this year while firemen and walmart workers work 2 crummy $7 an hour jobs just to try to make ends meet, and seniors who worked hard all their lives are paying half their income for overpriced drugs.   For every low-income scum who is working the system for goverment freebies there are ten poor working people getting screwed over.

It is nice for you that in your charmed life this does not bother you. I hope some day you are humbled by misfortune, just enough to realize how lucky you are, and how easily the system rolls over those who are not.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:39 PM

I'm lucky. You might not be. I'm a winner. You're a loser.

Try to help yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 10:28 PM

Martin, I may be delusional now, but I think you are trying to listen. Go back and reread the information and observations in my posts. Read Lily Festra's and dianavan's posts. Change your "many" to "some." Recognize how many "lazy, ignorant, looking for a handout, etc...." people live middle or even upperclass lives because of family resources.

    Consider that some of those "some"... "lazy, ignorant, poor people" have known little but chaos, physical, sexual and/or emotional abuse their entire lives. They are "damaged goods." Many of them can improve or do better, but they will never be able to thrive and compete in our (or any) society. The research is there now to show that early childhood experiences directly bear on the hard-wiring of the brain. This may explain some of the personality disorders, among other things.

People with mental illness, with severe chronic pain conditions, with heart disease, with uncontrolled diabetes, do not have that information tattooed on the forehead. Many people with severe and persistent mental illness including schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and schizoaffective disorder, have symptoms that look like "lazy, ignorant, free-loading, etc."that are actually part of their illness, (and these are documented to be biological illnesses), or that are caused by side effects of the medications used to treat the episodes of florid psychosis that look like "lazy, ignorant, free-loading, etc."

These are a few of the reasons why no one, not you, not me, not the Pope and not Moses, are qualified to say that person deserves to eat and that person doesn't. We can't crawl into other's heads even if we can try on their shoes. We can't really KNOW!

I agree that each of us is responsible for trying to solve our problems, whether we created those problems for ourselves or not. But for many, many reasons, some are better able to effectively engage in problem-solving than others. I believe just as strongly that the problem of physical survival and the meeting of basic needs of my fellow man is a societal responsibility to try to mitigate.

If a human is alive and wants to eat, and there is food, then that human deserves the opportunity to eat, whether he looks like a deadbeat or not.

If a human needs medical care and that care is available, he deserves that medical care, whether he is looking for a hand-out or not.

I believe, (and I understand it is a belief, not a verifiable fact) that the state of being alive carries with it certain rights, such as the right to eat if there is enough food. The right to basic medical treatment for illness or injury if it is available. Whether you, me or any other human deems someone else "worthy" or not is immaterial.

I think I was just redundant. Oh well.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 10:37 PM

Yeah, Janie, you're delusional. Or just haven't checked Farty Marty's and SuSu Bubby's posting history.

Suggestion: Don't waste your time. They don't have a clue, and don't care a damn- either of 'em. And they never will

But do keep on with what you're doing & helping to make a difference.

Best,

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 10:46 PM

Martin, you see yourself as a "winner." From the vast majority of your posts, I view you as a "loser."

You may say "But this is just a persona, how can you judge me, you don't know who I am?"

I say "If you are putting it out, it is part of you, and the part of you I see here is a L-O-S-E-R."

You say "Your definition of loser means nothing to me."

I say "Your definition of winner means nothing to me."

Which of us gets to judge who is right? What if we are both right? What if we are both wrong?   Who's going to prove it? Who's going to prove it in a manner that we both accept as valid? As true? As correct? Whose "judgement" is correct, true, documentably right? Imperically beyond rational dispute?

If we can agree on that, then we can agree about who has the ability to judge without error or prejudice.

I don't think we can agree on that. Do you?

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 10:51 PM

I know Greg. What can I say? I'm a social worker;>)

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 10:56 PM

Important correction to my 10:28 post above regarding people with a life history of chaos and abuse. SOME people who have experienced this will never be able to thrive. I made a gross overgeneralization in the original sentence.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:00 PM

Well, I recall those days when Title XX funds were being drastically cut by the Reagan administartion and I was thinking that things couldn't get much worse... As a social worker for the city of Richmond, I was able to use Title XX funds for transporting folks to clinics, to hire companion providers to spent 5 ot 10 hours a week with shut-ins... They were the life line... There weren't any churches willing to do much more than throw a few bucks into the pot or maintain a food closet... And so, like many of the other social workers, we found ourselves having to drop a lot of case management duties and step in and do those things, even if it meant doing them at night and on weekends...

I thought those were bad times but I ahdn't the slightest idea that Americans would allow such folks to gain power who would continut to burn one safety net after another...

What we have now is about 5 ot 10% of our population who aren't vulnerable and 90% who are... Even folks like SH are probably in that vulnerable category... Stuff can go downhill fast with an accident, an illness, the loss of a job, your company going belly up and, BANG, it's now yer butt trying to figure out just why you're broke and why the safety nest you thought were in place didn't catch you...

I wish no harm to folks like MG and SH but it's folks like them that allow the deterioration of the kinds of things that might be their saving grace to be dismantled...

Hang in there, Janie...

This insanity can't last forver...

There can't possibly be that many truely evil people in this country to let it go down the drain...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:35 PM

Let me tell you about, Johnny, the local street guy. I met him through Margaret, the old lady who used to live across the street before she entered a nursing home. Johnny used to do odd jobs for Margaret and when he had no place to sleep (which happened occasionally) she would let him sleep in her carport. She assured me he was harmless. When Margaret went to the nursing home, it was as if Johnny had lost his connection to the world. I sorta picked up where Margaret left off. At first I wasn't sure if he was on drugs, mentally challenged, or an alcoholic. I now realize that he is probably all three.

He never begs from me. He comes around looking for work. He's kind and gentle. He's like a ten year old in many ways. He likes to think he is protecting me and my property from other street people (maybe he is, because street people are quite territorial). Hiring Johnny is like paying for protection. We have a symbiotic relationship. He cuts my lawn and helps in the garden. He recycles my bottles and cans. If there is no work and therefore no money, I feed him instead. He is always grateful and polite. He has become a part of my life. I don't have much to offer except a little bit of care. I can't change his life and I doubt if he can either.

Old Margaret was a very prim and proper old lady. If she could find a place in her heart for a lonely street person, I can to. I owe her alot. She taught me the reward of giving to the less fortunate.

Yes, Johnny has a sad story but he's not a sad person. Somehow, through all the ups and downs of life, he manages to remain postive. He never complains about anything except his knees. He's on a waiting list at the hospital. This is how one homeless man survives.

Sometimes I wonder if everyone just took one homeless person under their wing, how much misery could be erased. Margaret taught me how easy it is. Johnny taught me not to be afraid of giving.

Please don't tell me what a good person I am. I have an extra bedroom but I certainly wouldn't invite him to sleep there. I'm writing this so that you know there are ways to connect with the homeless and show that you care. I'm as selfish as the next guy so I figure if I can do this, you can too.

People like Janie know how miserable the lives of the poor can be. Most street people are mentally challenged and victimized on the street. They are easy prey. Its a horrible, downward spiral for them. Count your blessings and don't shit on the homeless in the process. Chances are, they have never harmed you at all and never will.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 12:26 AM

Aside from a truly basic personality conflict, Martin and I differ philosophically on almost every point he or I raise. Recognizing this, I see it as definitely in my interest not to engage in any verbal sparring. I once was blind, but now I see! It's enough for me to just recognize these differences, these realities, and know how off the mark he is.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 12:44 AM

Art - Good idea!   

Its like trying to break a habit. Its best not to address him directly or interract with him in any way. You can get some satisfaction from discussing him with others without ever saying anything to him directly. He hates that.

He will continue to try to engage you, however. Thats when you just ignore him. Why bother to argue with someone who is ignorant if he is so shut down that he is motivated by fear alone. Pity him.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 08:45 AM

And just another thought this morning about the drastic increases of poverty in American over the last 5 years...

Bush came into office with one mandate and that was aadate that has been passed down from one rich generation to the next and that is to kill off as much of the New Deal and great Society as he can... The rich have catchy little phrases that love to throw about as if they really mean anything... "Personal responsibility" is my least favorite becuase it inmplies that the ruich gotr there the old fashioned way, theu hard work... The reality is that most rich folks were born into rich families...

The newest phrase is "ownership society" which is just a different version of "personal responsibility" and means absolutely nuthing except "Wr're going to redristribute the waelth away from you poor working stiff who created it to us rich folks and if you don't like it, tough beans... Wwe own the friggin' governemnt, loosers.."
Yeah, that is purdy much waht "ownership society" means...

Keep yer head up, Janie. The goodness of man will survive these nasty, greedy crooks...

BTW, the area we've moved to is filled with folks who'es grandparents were the ones who were physically removed from the top of the Blue Ridge Mountian in the 30's by the CCC to make a national park and "Skyline Drive" and many of them is just dirt poor old folks... We have several who we're allready looking after and one in particular, Mr. Clifford, has taken a real likin' to the P-Vine's home cookin' and is up here 'bout as much as he's in his little shack of a house... But we love the old guy...

Like I said, hang in there, do yer best... This inhumanity can't last forever...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 09:32 AM

I probably work with as many low income people as anyone.   Detroit has the highest unemployment rate in the coutry (over 15%) and has anywhere from 35% to 67% living at or under the poverty level (depending on which report you read)

Last year I did over 50 presentation helping people save money on their energy bills. I would say that 30 of them were to seniors or low income groups.   I work with United Way, (trained all their 211 phone reps), THAW (trained all their reps), Salvation Army, Human Services Agency (trained all their field workers), AARP, Legal Aid Society, UAW (spoke to over 2,000 UAW workers in 15 locations), and numerous blocks clubs.   Don't tell me I haven't been there or don't know the poor.   The problem is I know them too well.

The position that many of them take is that there are no jobs and it is up to government to provide them with money.   If government doesn't provide them with hand outs they will find a politician who will.   That is their only issue.    Absolutely pathetic.

Last August I had a minor heart attack and had two stents put in my heart.   Fortunately everhthing went well and there were no complications.   I was treated at Henry Ford Hospital in downtown Detroit.   I discovered that over 50% of the nurses were Canadians.

Now I love the Candadian nurses.   We talked about Cape Bretain bands on the operating table and I sang Leslie is Different to the head nurse named Leslie.   They were great.   My point is why in the city with the highest unemployment rate in the country do we have to bring in hundreds of nurses from Canada?   The answer I was told is that we don't have enough qualified nurses in Detroit.   

I than think back to these block clubs and meetings where leaders tell everyone there are no jobs.   LEARN HOW TO BE A NURSE.   That is a very honorable job.   And there are lots of jobs that some very lovely ladies could find back in Windsor.

Instead we blame the government.   Oh yeah-because of my great health insurance I only paid about $300 for my $10,000 bill.   I now have one of the best cardioligists in Michigan who I pay a $15 co pay when I see him.   Two Stents in my heart, I feel great.   Flawless procedure.   No side effects.   And I was the keynote speaker for a THAW (the heat and warmth fund-they pay peoples energy bill when they are shut off) power breakfast to 70 African American Detroit Clergy just two days after my second stent. (best crowd I spoke too all year) Isn't american health care great.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 09:48 AM

And the beat(ing) up goes on:(my emphasis)

PRESIDENT George W. Bush is about to ask Congress for another $160 billion ($US120 billion) for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, bringing their total cost so far to $585 billion.

That is enough to fully fund global anti-hunger efforts for more than 13 years and provide every child in the world with basic immunisation for more than a century.

Most of the money is for Iraq, where expenses are about $6 billion a month, according to administration officials. The US campaign in Afghanistan is costing about $1 billion a month.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 10:02 AM

Larry K,

I too have recently had a stent fitted to relieve a blocked coronary artery, also with complete success and no complications.

I didn't have to pay one penny for anything, including a home visit from our district cardiac nurse, and a series of exercise classes at my local hospital which will get me back to full fitness. Nether do I have to pay for the medication I will be taking to prevent a recurrence.

I have paid National Insurance contributions (deducted from my wages) throughout my 47 year working life, contributions which were matched by my employers.

These contributions, which never caused me any hardship, helped to pay for healthcare for poorer people, and now that I am retired, someone elses money helps to pay for mine.

Nobody in the UK ever has to worry about getting treatment for illness. THAT'S real healthcare, and for all the difficulties the system is experiencing, it is IMHO the best in the world.

They understand what the word "care" means on this side of the pond.

They also understand that nobody really chooses to be poor.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 10:03 AM

In Australia we have a government funded health care system called Medicare. It means we can go to the doctor any time we need to, and not have to pay.

established by a labor government in the early 70s.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 10:39 AM

OK. Let's make this a music thread.

Is there room for the poor
Across the divide
Where bums don't go hungry
And freezing outside
Or will they be driven
From the Savior's back door.
Oh say, up in Heaven
Is there room for the poor.

Utah Phillips

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 10:51 AM

Let the lazy sumbitches and all their offspring starve, I say.

Yeh, myself, I've never made a bad choice in my life!

Them poor people, they're all alike.

Mom ate bacon. It's her own damn fault that her arteries clogged up and she had to have by-pass surgery. They should 'a just let her die.

Nobody ever gave me a hand!

"Well I been thinkin' it out
And beyond a doubt, I ain't gonna do nothin' for nobody no time.
Nooooooobody.
Noooooo time."

Bunch of ingratiates!

See that drunk passed out there in the middle of the road? It's his own damn fault. He deserves to get run over.

Love,

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 11:22 AM

Walk a mile in someone elses shoes! Get a grip & take a better look. Please!
My sister just entered that profession, not because she was poor but because she wanted a change & she had been in the medical years ago. She first had to leave her job for a heavy schedule at school. Which cost dearly, some of the books cost plenty. In order to off set costs she found a hospital that would allow her a few hours, her benefits are nil, she covered by her husband's medical. She'll be in this mode for at least another year. She has money a husband who makes money, the where all to get herself into a nursing (passing the interviews)& find the time to study plus the ability to get herself back & forth to her part time job & school. I don't know of many poor that could manage all that especially if they had kids. Now if government would cover those costs & took care of daycare maybe then they could see the number of poor that they're supposedly supporting go down. In the long run it would be cheaper. I never in my life have seen poor, TRULY poor people with the time or left over energy to attend a presentation on how to better utilize there money. You first have to have money & then have the time to manage it. Is there a charge for these speeches? It sounds like this is geared for lower middle class but definitely not for the poor & homeless. Poor people are to busy just trying to survive, homeless are to busy beating off the devils, the demons & the dead. A large percentage of the homeless need to be medicated for a range of afflictions, from addictions to neological impairments of many things that the social services have made impossible or nearly impossible for them to now receive, thanks to a long line of cut backs. You think you know the poor, not from where I'm sitting. Grow up poor or ask some kid on the street or some one huddled in side an insulated cardboard box what there life's like & if they would like to apply for a position a few steps up from sweeping the sidewalk in front of a store front or if they might have the time & energy to come uptown & apply for a nurses position but first qualifying for acceptance into a nursing school, they'd spit in your eye for making fun of them.
The poor of 50 yrs ago & the poor of today are worlds apart. I grew up poor not as poor as some of the others in the housing projects around me but still pretty poor. My father was a bookie so money was not a steady but pretty much the norm in my little part of the world. Most people where nice & if there was a problem other families would send over a left over winter coat or a pair of sneakers. Some kid & his mother may might come over for supper for the next few nights, next week their turn to have you over. If you needed to work that evening waiting table someone might watch the little one for a few bucks. When times got tough you might get food stamps or be accepted for welfare, it was a lifeline for many. Then there was housing, we lived in projects that were low income for vets. There were hospitals that would treat people regardless of income & there were places that people could recover form what afflicted them. Granted that many of these intuitions weren't up to pare but they saw us through. We & others survived. We were survivors, we had to be. Many of us still are though not so poor anymore.   
Today, social reforms & programs are for those who have addresses & even then it's a bitch to get any medical or prescription assistance. Medicaid & Medicare are tough rocks to crack & when cracked are a tough show to follow. Folks don't live in the same kind of neighborhoods that existed in the past. They live in down trodden developments where they are in fear for their lives & in fear for & from their kids, from their neighbors, the dealers, the cops, the housing authorities, of the homeless, of the mentally unstable, of the addicts. They live in fear that they'll never again see a ray of hope or a social program that will cover them, or a sign that they'll survive long enough to get old & then die. They fear from one week to the next whither they'll be able to afford their medication or supper or if they can make the truck up to the emergency ward when they get sick because they ate instead of medicate. These people are not your fault but they are your responsibility. Since government programs have been cut that once enabled these people to climb out of the hole that they're in or at least be able to exist there , they have become the problem of the masses, like it or not. Or maybe help change the government's policy & the public's outlook & attitude towards them. Spouting off about how one can help manage their savings isn't quite what this is all about.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 11:29 AM

More music Janie & bless you. People like you are angelsfor thoes that live with devils.

No Tomorrow For The Poor (Barry Finn)

Tune: Virginia Lags, Traditional

Inside the ghettos dwells the greatest of crimes
Where kids with no hope are serving their time
Where they're shocked into feeling that life has no price
They live and they die no tomorrow

With no higher learning, no place they can turn
They see daily the wealth from crime they can earn
They're under the gun every time that they turn
And we ask why they have no values

Their language is foreign, their culture is strange
There's slight chance for survival outside of a gang
To get life from drugs beats the pain of no change
There's no light at the end of their tunnel

There's abuse of all kinds that runs rampage with rage
And the cycle runs deeper with each passing age
Until lock them away is all we can say
They've been locked away all of their young lives

We'll draw cheap labor from them that'll slave
And watch while we help the rest into the grave
Keep them from good health, good schools and good wage
And hope that there isn't a backlash

So now let us finish and shake hands with our fate
And don't be surprised when you're a victim of hate
What they've been robbed of, to you they'll relate
You'll be hunted as prey by your victim

Barry Finn 1997

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Scoville
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 12:55 PM

(Please spare me the mooching-child lectures.) Thanks to my parents, who are letting me stay with them until I can actually (and not according to some BS government estimate) support myself, I've never been that badly off, but I don't see how ANYONE supports themselves, let along a family, on what the government claims is above the poverty line (never mind that now they apparently think people are going to be *saving extra money* to pay their own health expenses).

My first job out of college paid $9 an hour and $100 a month toward my own health insurance. I did OK by working 60 hours a week but I was exhausted and depressed. If I had had an apartment of my own, I would have been broke at the end of every month, and Texas has a reasonable cost of living; we're not talking NYC expenses here. Health insurance was $200/month for a single 27-year-old who never smoked, essentially never drank, never used drugs, was not overweight, etc., but the co-pays were still high. I got a mild but sinus infection the week before a job interview, and a consultation--not an exam--and 7 antibiotic pills cost me almost $90 even with insurance. Ridiculous.

My second job was $9/hour but no overtime and I actually lost money. I am not a profligate spender--this was for rent to my parents, car & health insurance, gas, minimal personal expenses.

I do OK now on about $27k a year with benefits (I work for a big hospital system so the health insurance and retirement plans are good) but now I've gone back to school for library training, which I can luckily do online since I can't possibly afford to work less than full-time and my job isn't suited to flexible hours or telecommuting. It's not "free", though, since you still have to pay tuition, books, computer, internet connection, and spend the time to do the homework. It's easier than keeping a class schedule but not the kind of thing that would work well on a public computer (at the library or something) since you need work-space, and, obviously, it wouldn't work at all if you were not already reasonably computer-literate.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 01:02 PM

Barry,

Will you sing that one at the Press Room for me tonight? You know, "Folks, I've got a special request for a song from somebody all the way down in North Carolina!"

I ain't no angel. As I said to Martin, ain't nothin' special or great about me. I am fortunate to have a vocation. And I am fortunate that by an accident of birth, I grew up with the genes, the support and the opportunities for appropriate social learning, and with the knowledge that if it all does ever come apart for me, my extended family, though not well off, has the emotional and material resources to keep me and my child out from under the bridges. I won't ever starve unless everybody is starving. Many people do not have that assurance.

And there is nothing special or noble about being poor. Just like there is nothing special or noble about being rich. I don't enjoy being around a poor SOB anymore than I enjoy being around a rich SOB.
But like I said before, if there is enough food for everybody, then everybody has the right to enough food to eat.

But Barry, I will, thank you very much, always take all the blessings I can get!

You and Justine celebrate tonight, you hear?

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 01:05 PM

Scoville--we got SYNERGY going on here:>)

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Scoville
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 01:09 PM

By the way, I'm not complaining--I know how lucky I am.

Nevertheless, as whole-heartedly as I agree with the old saying that money can't buy happiness, it can buy security, freedom, and peace of mind if you handle it properly, and those help a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Scoville
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 01:20 PM

. . . and if you have enough to work with, I should add.



It does piss me off. I'm not stupid, I'm reasonably well-educated (B.A. from a respectable college), and I'm not a slacker. I don't want a hand-out and I don't begrudge people who go the extra mile[s] what they earn (my father makes more than I ever will, but he has a Ph.D. and works like a mule, and he deserves every penny of it, but even he's not making six digits). I just don't think it should be impossible for the average person to take care of themselves or get a leg up.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 02:06 PM

Janie, you may think that you're just a regular plain Jane just doing what she does but when a mother comes up to you & askes you for help & she's got a one kid sick & the other one hungry, when you start to help her she's watching your wings as they grow & her heart no longer feels her teeth biting it. No better way to put it. When I was a kid my mother used to tell me about the angels. She said she was one of the lucky ones, they always were around when she needed them most. These days the government is putting a price on their heads with all the cuts to social services. Angels are becoming an endangered species. (there's a song here)

I probably won't be singing that song tonight, no time to refesh it. It's not a song that many want to here, so I've never sang it often enough to keep it up to speed. If I ever copy it I'll send it along.
You can have the words but I can't think of where you'd get the tune from. I have the tune from Ewan McColl but I don't know if he ever recorded it. I could always sing it into an answering machine if you really want it. Done it for Joe Offer & it worked ok, not a big deal
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 02:19 PM

2006 Getaway?

J

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 03:32 PM

YES.
B

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Troll
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 09:58 PM

Don T.

Sorry to have to disagree about the level of health care in the UK but my experience is a little different form yours.

Cases in point; friends brother broke his nose in a trafic accident (not his fault) Two years after the acident he FINALLY got an appointment to have corrective surgery done so he would no longer need to be a mouth breather.

A carpenter who was working for a friend of mine had to wait 18 monthe for corrective surgery on his knee which would lock up unexpectedly. This was a real problem since he was constantly on roofs or up and down ladders. He could not get disability.

Last summer, my wife -who had just had cataract surgery- visited a friend on the Isle of Man where the wait for cataract surgery is about a year. By the time you need surgery, you have about three months before irreversible damage sets in.

Last, my good friend Colin died of pancreatic cancer. The National health waited for 18 months AFTER he began experiencing rapid weight loss to order an x-ray. By that time his cancer had metastasized. He was dead in three months.

All these things took place in different parts of the UK so it cannot be blamed on ineptitude in one locale. I'm not saying that the US system is great, but most of the other systems that I've seen leave a lot to be desired too.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 01:23 PM

I am not motivated by fear.

I do consider myself a winner.

I do consider some on Mudcat to be total losers.

I am not in the least bit moved by insults as I know where they are coming from and I truly consider the source.

I am greatful for all of the good in my life.

I believe that my greatest enemies here are the ones who react the most to fear and truly are misfits in society.

Otherwise, Janie. I stand by what I said earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 03:32 PM

Scoville said, "I just don't think it should be impossible for the average person to take care of themselves or get a leg up."

The people who need the most help are not very 'average'.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 02:18 PM

I got a leg up (among other things) when I could, but now I can't. In order for my wife to have medical care, and important treatments, I (we) must remain absolutely poverty stricken. That's Medicaid that Bush will try to gut further this very week--even as we speak here. My fear is that my new CDs might make me enough to purchase a few needed things---and she will lose that coverage--or we will lose the income in order to be, again, totally unencumbered of cash...

It is absolutely vicious from where I sit.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 04:18 PM

Maybe you should have worked a real job and saved some money?

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 05:16 PM

How long, Martin, would you and your family be able to survive on your savings? As you know, many American families are one paycheck away from homelesness. Do you enjoy ridiculing those who have less than you? Does it make you feel rich and powerful? Just what kind of satisfaction do you derive from putting people down?

You only succeed in making yourself look cowardly and insecure.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 05:29 PM

Attaboy. Kick `em when they're down, big man.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 05:31 PM

That's bullshit, Guest. Just because one chose the road to become a folksinger, make and save very little money and now has little to show for it does not mean squat.

Life is full of decisions. We can make good ones or not. When we make bad ones, accepting responsibility is the higher road to take.

And I am neither cowardly or insecure.

I just asked a question, that's all. You are the one who is just so easily offended by a good question.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 05:39 PM

I, too, asked some good questions, Martin. Why are you so offended that you don't even attempt an answer?

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 06:23 PM

Here's the answer to your question, Guest.

Because you suck. That's why.

LOL!!

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 07:21 PM

Art,

    I am so aware of the countless individuals and families who are in your shoes. You are in a catch-22 situation. Many middle-class and even moderately well-to-do people don't understand what a thin line separates them from some one in your position. I don't hear you feeling sorry for yourself, but I am very sorry that you are in this position.

    I just got back from the 95th birthday celebration of a family member. He worked hard. Money and priviledge were important to him. To a large (tho' not exclusive) degree, he reckoned the success of himself and others, their worth as human-beings, in terms of how much wealth they had. He retired from his own business thirty years ago as a moderately wealthy man worth a few million dollars. He managed his assets well. They have fairly consistently provided him with about $100,000 annual income. That should cover about anything? Huh?

    Perhaps it would have 30 years ago. His wife developed dementia and medical problems. Eventually she had to be placed in a nursing home, where she lived for 8 years before she died. All those 8 years were "out-of-pocket" expense. Over the past 10 years, the cost of providing him with care has risen to over $200,000 a year. If he lives much longer (and he has no significant physical health problems) he will be a pauper. As the assets are now being drawn against to provide care, his income begins to drop.

    Most families do not, and can not, retire with several million dollars under their belts. It has nothing to do with bad choices.

    Even when people are up against the wall financially because of bad choices, it still is not OK to let them starve, die of exposure, or from lack of medical care.

    There is a dialectic, and a paradox to our existence as a species. We are forever doing this balancing act between the needs and the rights of the group vs. the individual. The balance point isn't fixed, and rarely do we all agree on where the balance is, or should be at any point in time. How we deal with the indigent, or with any disadvantaged group always reflects that struggle for balance.
   
Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 07:24 PM

I expect I will just kill myself when I turn 65. Easier that way.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: LilyFestre
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 07:29 PM

Martin,

   As you know, the rules are changing. Folks who grew up being told that when they grew older, they would be taken care of by
Plan X are now finding themselves in a very precarious situation. It's not an issue of not working hard....folks have worked hard...millions of them...and had faith in a system that is completely changing. I don't think you can really pin this on people in general. Think of your parents...what if it was one of them?

Come on...don't bait on this issue. There are elderly people who are getting a really rude slap in the face, not to mention being HUGELY disrespected by a government that many of them stood by and believed in. Even the veterans of our country are taking cuts in benefits....those people put their lives on the line for our country and are now having things taken away from them...how pitiful is that?

Really...don't go there with what the elderly should have saved...many have saved but it just isn't enough to cover the ASTRONOMICAL medical expenses....I think this is an example of government hoodwinking and absolute monopolies by the drug companies.

Michelle

PS. I hope you (or any of your family) ever find yourself in this kind of situation...it can happen faster than you can imagine.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Barry Finn
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 07:37 PM

Should anyone give up on their life's dream? Wither or not it's to be a folk singer, a movie actress, a tailor, a potter, a painter, a bishop, a politician, a CEO, a president. Some of the professions & trades create, some give what's needed to others & some others do nothing but feed of the backs of the less fortunate & some don't produce anything at all but just play a middle person. Not really a big deal except for those that live off others & keep them down. And as long as they keep their morals that's fine. Some folks choose occupations & trades that help many but they receive little for their labor of love. Those that come to mind are teachers & day care providers, social workers, & all who fall under the arts umbrella, granted there are those that make a good living but there are many who love what they do & are only recognized as important within their communities but have to struggle to get by. They worked like any other & have deserved the respect do them. ESPICALITY from within there own communities. Have some decency for your fellow artists. They all in part shed a little more sunshine in all our lives.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 07:37 PM

Troll 09:58,

I did say that our health service has problems, and it's true that one of them is waiting time.

However, the subject under discussion was the difference as to cost, and I would far rather have a slow service, than none at all unless I could pay for it.

For people who are below the poverty line in the USA, the choice on offer may be which way to die; disease or starvation.

We don't have to weigh the relative importance of food or medication.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 07:57 PM

Some of the conservatives that I know are truly empathic, compassionate individuals. We disagree on means, not ends. With these people it is relatively easy for us to find a common ground as a starting point for useful discussion and debate.

    My family is a bizzarre mix of neo-cons and liberals. An uncle of whom I am very fond is a bitter, reactionary, fearful Rush Limbaugh fan. I hate his politics and his small mindedness regarding political and societal concerns. He is impossible to have a conversation with. He doesn't talk. He gives speeches. Anything or anybody different from him is either wrong or threatening (or both.)
He and his wife get by, but clearly go from payday to payday.
When it comes to family, his church congregation, or his neighborhood of people with whom he feels a strong affiliation, he will bend over backwards to lend a hand in any way possible. He gives of himself freely in those situations.

    Although I can see where we have common ground, I have somehow never been able to engage him in fruitful discussion. I will bet he feels the same way.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 07:58 PM

Michelle, I agree with most of what you say, believe me. My father, who I lost 3 years ago and was retired for the last 20, never made more than $25K a year. Yet he figured out on his own how to make those last 20 years quite comfortable, by studying and making wise decisions. My mother continues to live comfortably.

It's just way to easy to say that you got a raw deal. Some planning for the future can help. Some good guidance and planning in your younger years can help also.

There are truthfully inadequacies in when it comes to care in this country, but it ultimately begins with the individual. Dreams do not pay the bills.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 08:10 PM

And some people just have shitty luck. I guess that makes them losers.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 08:14 PM

No, it makes them the people with the most excuses.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 08:19 PM

Barry--well said!

Michelle--Thank you for adding your own perspective to this conversation.


Martin,

    "...It ultimately begins with the individual."

    And there are those who affirm just as strongly that it ultimately begins with the group.

    My own belief is that it ultimately begins with both. And my observation is that the balance in American society, as reflected by our national policies, has shifted too far toward the individual end of the balance beam.

and Martin,

    In your response to Michelle's last post you expressed yourself well and effectively. Thanks for that. It makes it much easier to hear you.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 08:21 PM

Losers, excuses... all loaded words with negative connotations.

Their big unforgiveable sin is being poor.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 08:26 PM

Cluin, people as I have said earlier in this thread are poor for many reasons. Some of that is lack of motivation, not appling themselves, blaming others, not taking responsibility for their own actions, making poor choices, not taking advantage of resources, etc.

There is absolutely no sin for being poor that way. The sin is letting that happen to one's self.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 11:01 PM

I think what Janie (and others) are saying is that the ways and means for poor people to try to get ahead are being closed down by policies and practices aimed at them by our gummint, in ways they couldnot have foreseen and thuis could not have marshaled themsevels to overcome ahead of time..... that the rug is being pulled out from under them each time they think they have gained a tiny bit of solid ground under their feet-- while the rest of us weren't looking and in a way that causes the rest of us to see it as the fault of the people falling victom to these policies and practices.

I think she's saying, "Hey, look over here-- there's something wrong happening to a whole lot of human beans. "Poverty" doesn't function in the same way it used to. It's being rigged."

I dunno for sure if Janie is saying ALL of that. But I am. I know how poverty USED to work-- with great effort, I worked my way out of it into the wonderful class of the "voluntary poor." ;~) But I don't think I could manage it as things are now.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 11:54 PM

Susan,

    I think what you say is true, and also think (but don't know) that there is some research to back that up. My views are somewhat beyond that, though.

    First, planning for the future takes a backseat to getting from one day to the next. Poverty creates or increases chaos and crisis.

A family just making it who experiences a bad break--say, health problems--death of the wage earner-- is very easily tipped over the financial precipice. The difficulties snowball quickly--get behind on the rent to pay for medicine, then get behind on the electricity to pay the back rent, then can't pay the car insurance so the tags get revoked, just at the same time your doctor says you can go back to work from the broken leg and arm and now you have no way to get to work....which you must do to get the money to get the car legal so you drive anyway and get pulled, and now you have all the fines and court costs to pay before you can get your tags back, even if you do come up with the money to renew the insurance!

Scenerios like this are much more common than the average middle-class American knows.

TBC Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 12:28 AM

Believing that it "ultimately comes down to both the individual and society", means I see the importance of balance, but also means I understand the fulcrom point to be very dynamic; always in motion.   The other main dynamic is the to-and fro motion between the individual and the group.

    Once, while working with a very old chart for a public assistence case, I saw an offical stamp on an application. It was dated in the very late 30's. The application had obviously been approved. In big red letters it read "DEEMED WORTHY BY THE COUNTY COUNCIL."

    When it comes down to basic needs, there is not one person on earth whose view is so clear and without prejudice, that if comes with the right to judge whether some one is worthy to eat, worthy to have shelter from the storm, worthy to have necessary and important routine medical care.
   
So, if that person or family you or I think we know, really were lazy and doofluss and thatsallthereistoit,thankyouverymuch!, Our collective responsibility requires that we offer a helping hand anyway.

IMHO,

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 12:31 AM

Oops. 3rd paragraph, end of 3st line. s/b it--and not if.

J

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 01:18 AM

Well, everything we had went to medical insurance and to pay for ten years of my surgeries and uncovered outpatient costs with thousands of dollars demanded in cashiers checks, up front, before we got the needed MRIs etc. etc. -- until insurance premiums were too much to afford and Medicaid was the only way to go. Now pre-existing conditions keep insurance unavailable. You are right, it's Catch 22 all over again---and then compounded by ten.

It is insane! But once you get used to it, insanity can be the most normal thing in the world. Don't get me wrong, folks. Life is a gas and a great panorama I never tire of watching. It is only difficult watching when deluded people convince themselves that their good fortune is all a result of their own prowess. In actuality, it is nothing more than dumb conniving luck ---no different than a big win in Casa Blanca as the chief of police proclaims he's shocked gambling is happening--as he pockets his winnings/bribes !!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 02:00 AM

"It is only difficult watching when deluded people convince themselves that their good fortune is all a result of their own prowess."

How right you are, Art.

Its called blind arrogance, lack of empathy and plain selfishness.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 02:12 PM

In school our kids our taught that "there but for fortune" any of us could be poor and that all of us are one paycheck away from being poor.   BULLSHIT.

We all make decisions in life.   Being poor is usally the result of many bad decisions.   Didn't study, dropped out of school, drank, took drugs, hung out with bad people, did crimes, etc. etc.   It's not one bad decision that leaves you on the street.

I have had companies I work for sell the company (big companies like Stanley, Kodac, and Lysol) and dissolve my job.   Rather than give up I found a new job.   After reorganization I had to find a new job skill in my current job.   Today I am the recognized expert in my company.   

I think it is great that people take social jobs with little pay.   That is their choice. Don't bitch that you don't make any money.   You chose that field. No one is stopping you from becoming a doctor, lawyer, investment banker, or millionaire from your own business.

Art chose the music business.   I love Art's performances, but not enough other people do.   Some people make millions in music.   Most don't.   Very few in folk music make much of a living.   But that is a choice you make.   The upside is you choose your life, have no bosses, and play for people like yourself.   The downside is little money, no healtcare, small audiences, talented competition, and no poplular support.   You can make a whole lot more money as a DJ for weddings and bar mitzvahs.

It is not fair why some jobs pay a lot and others pay very little. Life isn't fair.   Get on with it.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 02:46 PM

See now, there you have it.

Larry's actually ENVIOUS of poor folks who get any kind of assistance 'cause HE isn't getting anything! Like if he had to endure the existence of one of these less fortunates he'd probably kill himself in a week.

But he still envies 'em.

Pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 03:13 PM

Uhmmmmmmmmm....What I want to say...is...

100! (i hope)

J

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 03:16 PM

Yes!!!! Doesn't take much to make me happy, eh?

Larry, your view is awfully one dimensional.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 03:16 PM

100 ??

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 03:23 PM

Sorry, Son.

I guess you just had too much lead in those fingers:>)

J.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 04:10 PM

I have no idea what Larry F. was trying to imply in his 2:46 post. I certainly did not get that from Larry K.s post. And he is not being one dimensional - I think he pretty much nailed it. In my 35 years of work in this area, 98% of those suffering from poverty or near poverty were a product of a similar situation while growing up or suffer from a lack of education (the number one contributor). Some cannot be changed. My last case (on a pro-bono basis) was trying to get someone to simply work. He was to be picked up at his door every morning, driven to the job site and returned on a daily basis. He had NO income at that time, living with a lady on SS disability. His physical condition was excellent as we observed him doing backflips after several beers. His comment was "I can't read or write"(dyslexia, I think). He did not have to as the driver would fill out his time card for him. The job was in drainage and irrigation and his main task would be carry lightweight plastic pipe, one piece at a time. The hourly rate was 3 times minimum wage to start.

While this tale is antecdotal, it is all too common. His 'partner' was going to apply for Supplemental SS for him. The "Great Society" has done much to create the current situation. Larry K. is correct and I am sure, like me, he has nothing against a legup until the individual can stand on his/her own two legs.

Too many people engaged in working to help those in dire conditions oft wear their heart on their sleeve and simply extend the condition rather than getting some away from it. The answer is somewhere in reaching those young people, say under 6 years of age, and giving them a path to follow.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 04:16 PM

By the way, taking things at face value is one of our most grevious errors. If you do a little checking, you will find that the program is not being cut, simply a slight decrease in the planned increase over last years funding.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 04:49 PM

G,

    What I see, is that we are tending to talk at, instead of with each other.

    I seem to be repeating myself alot here. There is no one or (even, one mostly) reason why some people are poor. And many people are poor for a combination of reasons. Even if everyone who were poor, were poor because they were lazy, no count bums, we as a society have an obligation to provide for the basic needs of all the individuals who make up that society. It is inherent in the social contract. Individuals give up something from their individuality in order to have the benefits of a societal structure, and to help insure survival. Society must also give up something in exchange for the participation of individuals.

    I find the arguments you and Larry have presented here to give weight almost exclusively to the individual. That makes your view very unidimensional. A very strong socialist viewpoint would tend to be unidimensional also.

    In our country, right now, a significant number of people are not getting BASIC NEEDS met because the pendulum has swung too far right. If corrective measures are not taken soon to shift that balance back, I really think we will end up seeing a class war in this country.

      It does not have to happen. But it sure can happen.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 04:57 PM

I pretty much said the same thing as LarryK did.

forget the handouts.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 04:58 PM

I think we have some folks here who don't actually know what Janie actually DOES.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:02 PM

Sounds like a cut to me. Did medical costs suddenly reverse direction and plummet while I wasn't looking? Do you not understand what loss of jobs (where I live, the textile industries and large segments of tech. related jobs) has done to the economy in many parts of the country? States have absorbed all of the cost shifting that they can. You also seem not to be aware that social safety net programs like Medicaid, Aid to Families with Dependent children, the Food Stamps program, have had their funding and their policies become steadily more restrictive since the block grant programs began in 1981. After 15 years of erosion, there ain't no beach left.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:06 PM

Yes, Martin. We know.

J

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:06 PM

Simply review the money being expended as a result of the "Great Society" (LBJ)

I just reviewed a report from a midwest state involving the reduced school lunch program. Free for some. 72 percent of those eligible were using the school time lunch program. Only 24% were taking advantage of the morning breakfast program (mostly free) and less than 10% were utilizing the summer vacation lunch program, even where free transportation was being provided. I believe it is the individual.

What would you do differently? I am tired, worn out, out of ideas and I quit. I still give my share to the Salvation Army and United Way.

I do not intend to try and guess your beliefs on this situation. That would not be fair to you.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:14 PM

Guest G,

    I think I have been pretty specific about my beliefs throughout this thread. I admit they are probably not facinating reading--but there is absolutely no need to guess about what they are and on what I base them. If you had skimmed the thread to a meaningful degree, you would already know them.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:26 PM

Okay - don't take it personally. What I am really interested in would be your comments on those that do not take advantage of programs and more importantly, your ideas for improvement.

Improvement is always the key word, don't you think.

I did read the thread, twice, and got the impression from you that we don't do nearly enough as a Government. I did not want to saddle you with my interpretations. Not fair as I said before.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:27 PM

My last post did not need to be so snippy.

My apologies.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:51 PM

We cross-posted, G.

    In my years in social work, I have certainly encountered several narcissistic, antisocial bums (and bumtresses) who just flat out felt "entitled" for others to care for them.   Working with these leeches is irritating and frustrating. No one likes to feel used or manipulated, (even us social worker types:>). But they be breathing, and there be enough food to go around. So I hand 'em a plate.
    For every actual leech I encounter, however, I encounter 3 others who look like leeches until I understand their story, and 6 more who no one would call a leech, but who fell through a gaping hole in the social safety net.

       I'll come back later. (oh boy, betcha can't wait, eh?)

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:57 PM

"WASHINGTON — The number of Americans living in poverty rose by 1.1 million to 37 million last year, despite a robust economy that created 2.2 million new jobs. It was the fourth consecutive year poverty has risen."

"The number of people without health insurance rose by 800,000 to 45.8 million. But the number with health insurance also increased by 2 million, to 245.3 million. Employer-based health coverage declined, while more people joined government programs such as Medicaid. As a result, the percentage of uninsured remained basically unchanged at 15.7%."

"• Poverty. Nearly one in four blacks and more than one in five Hispanics remained in poverty, defined as annual income of less than $19,307 for a family of four. The rate for Asians dropped by 2 percentage points, to fewer than one in 10. The poverty rate for children was 17.8%, up slightly from 17.6% in 2003."

USA Today regarding 2004

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 06:00 PM

"Even if everyone who were poor, were poor because they were lazy, no count bums, we as a society have an obligation to provide for the basic needs of all the individuals who make up that society. It is inherent in the social contract."



I guess I was sick the day they showed us that contract in school.




Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 06:02 PM

"I guess I was sick the day they showed us that contract in school."

And you're still sick today.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 06:42 PM

That's actually funny, Bruce.


I know that I've been painted as a heartless, soulless, uppity jackass. But at least I've been brave enough to come in here and argue my points. And as the points I have brought forward have tried to be systematically dissected and destroyed by consistently trying to change the subject and calling me names does not make my points any less valid. This is a true difference of opinion and it was just brilliantly stated by Janie.

She believes that we (as the government) have a responsibility to help those that refuse to help themselves. I guess that's what known to liberals and democrats as "positive reinforcement". When I believe what's needed to help those that refuse to help themselves is a good swift kick in the ass.(Figuratively of course.)

What you have never heard from me is that those in this situation because they have no control of what has happened to them need this same treatment. I don't believe that at all. Those are the ones that would benefit from us trying to help them by showing and encouraging them what to do instead of just trying to throw money at them in hopes that it will all just go away.

Personal responsibility is a concept that must be taught. The socialist idea that just throwing more money at it with no accountability will solve it is wishful thinking at best.

As the good book says: "Train up a child in the way they should go and when they are old they shall not depart from it."

But since I just quoted the Bible, I guess that's another reason to just call me names and try to discredit what you can't honestly defend.

That's ok, I've got big shoulders.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 06:45 PM

"I know that I've been painted as a heartless, soulless, uppity jackass."

Self portrait was it? Seeing the light at last?

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 06:51 PM

Bubby-

Check Rousseau & the rest of the enlightenment authors - assuming you can read. They're largely responsible for the ideas in the Constitution & Bill of Rights, & were favorites of those liberal commies Jefferson & Madison & all them founding fathers types....

Looks like you were sick or asleep for your entire time in school?

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: bobad
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 06:55 PM

One solution, as proposed by the recently appointed Canadian finance minister when he was serving as the attorney general of Ontario, is to make homelessness illegal - put them in jail. I guess that's one way of helping the needy.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 06:56 PM

When I believe what's needed to help those that refuse to help themselves is a good swift kick in the ass.(Figuratively of course.)

So there's another good one who believes kicking them when they're down is good medicine.

*Tip* With your hand tightly pressed on your wallet in your back pocket, you can really get a good swing into that kick.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 06:57 PM

Hey, that's the answer: Declare homelessness to be illegal--and jail all homeless people. THEN, declare jails to be illegal and BOOM, the problem vanishes.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:02 PM

Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:14 PM

"But since I just quoted the Bible, I guess that's another reason to just call me names and try to discredit what you can't honestly defend."

Well, back atcha: "The rich man's wealth is his strong city: the destruction of the poor is their poverty."

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:26 PM

Peace, you are being an Ass.

(like you care about me saying that)

Just maybe Hubby was sick that day - you still are not well.

(See, that is the sort of crap you come up with and it does not contribute to anything with the possible exception of screwing something up)

Good Thread, Janie.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:28 PM

Thank you for your excellent guidance--whoever you are.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:31 PM

"(See, that is the sort of crap you come up with and it does not contribute to anything with the possible exception of screwing something up)"

Then deal with the following instead, and then you can contribute in positive manner, also.

"WASHINGTON — The number of Americans living in poverty rose by 1.1 million to 37 million last year, despite a robust economy that created 2.2 million new jobs. It was the fourth consecutive year poverty has risen."

"The number of people without health insurance rose by 800,000 to 45.8 million. But the number with health insurance also increased by 2 million, to 245.3 million. Employer-based health coverage declined, while more people joined government programs such as Medicaid. As a result, the percentage of uninsured remained basically unchanged at 15.7%."

"• Poverty. Nearly one in four blacks and more than one in five Hispanics remained in poverty, defined as annual income of less than $19,307 for a family of four. The rate for Asians dropped by 2 percentage points, to fewer than one in 10. The poverty rate for children was 17.8%, up slightly from 17.6% in 2003."

USA Today regarding 2004

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:34 PM

Wow! There are some people posting to this thread who are pretty damned smug and self-satisfied. Little do they realize that all it would take is a board of directors somewhere deciding to make some cutbacks—or someone's (not necessarily one's own) inattention while crossing a street—or a slight misstep on a stairway—or a virus creeping stealthily into one's body—and all of that presumed security—all of that which allows them to be smug and self-satisfied—could vanish like a cloud of smoke on a windy day.

Then you'd really hear some whining.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:36 PM

Now Peace, that is good, constructive stuff, exactly what I was refering to. (7:31)

Much better than "and you are still sick today" which you told Hubby earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:39 PM

And I will say something just like that to him again when he puts words in my mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 08:09 PM

Well, one alarming fact seems to rebutt the thoughts by some that poverty is the result of making bad choices... In reality the envirnoment that ones is born into will determine one's success of failure in life more than any other factor... Most folks who are poor were born into poor families... Conversely, most rich folks were born into rich families...

These cyles are very hard to break from either end of the socio-economic spectrum...

If a society cares to try to break down these cyles then it's going to take financing and programs similar to those of the New deal and the Great Society... All the good, all the prayers, all the good thoughts and good intentions can't break the cycle of poverty without "governemnt"... The churchs, as rich as they are, haven't scratched the surface...

And it's going to take more comminities passing "Living Wage" laws that increase the minimum wages in their states and localites to levels where there is hope for the working poor... BTW< a large amjority of poor folks, ahhhhh, do work.... But at $5.15 an hour, there is little or no chance ot breaking the cycle... Oh sure, there are exceptions, but those are just that.... exceptions...

So if we are serious about making a dent in the poverty levels it's gonna take "more governemnt" and much higher minimum wages...

Just for starters....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 08:36 PM

The easiest way to become rich or very well-off is to have the good sense to be born into a rich or very well-off family. Hell, if yer too stupid to make the right choice to begin with . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 08:45 PM

Exactly, Bruce...

"Hey, if ye' din't want to be poor then you picked the wrong parents..." (spit)...

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 08:48 PM

Susu's hubby said, "The socialist idea that just throwing more money at it with no accountability will solve it is wishful thinking at best."

Where did you get the idea? Seems to me that it doesn't really matter who is in government, throwing money around with no accountability is a bad idea.

Bush has sure thrown alot of money at KBR (Halliburton) with little or no accountability. This is not a Socialist phenomena. It is just plain old bad government.

I don't think Janie, or anyone else, is suggesting that there should be no accountability. In fact, anyone who has ever worked in the social services knows that a good portion of the money allocated to social services is actually spent on bureacratic paperwork (accountability). Nobody here is advocating spending your tax dollars on system abusers, either. Of course these people exist but they are the minority.

What is needed is the funding of services which will help people become independent wage earners. Since I think most people would agree to this concept, why isn't it happening? Why are we so concerned about the people of Iraq when we should be concentrating on helping the needy here at home.

17.8% of children live in poverty. These are innocent children. If we don't give the help to them now, they will most definitely need social services for the rest of their lives. Pay now or pay later.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 12:17 AM

Larry K--

You may "work with" low income folk.

However:

1)   You say you "know the poor". Not likely.

"The position many of them take is that there are no jobs and it is up to government to provide them with money"

Nobody denies that some of the poor do this. The question is whether it is "many" or, as you imply in your post, "most". "Most" is dead wrong, "many" is totally subjective on your part and carries no weight--especially against the experience of Janie, who has a more substantial sample to draw from. It sounds like with you it's back to the good old days of Mr. Reagan's welfare Cadillac--a handy stereotype to beat the poor and justify your own selfishness.

2)   You had 2 stents put in. Had you had no health insurance, which is prohibitively expensive to many self-employed or working poor--and a major problem for them-- you would have had huge expenses. Any argument here? Many of the self-employed or working poor would have been bankrupted by the cost.

3) You rail against government and tell us constantly taxes should be lower--i.e. government should be smaller. Who pays for your talks to low-income people? You obviously give a lot of them. It sounds as if it would be reasonable to suspect you derive some income from them. Perhaps your company derives a tax benefit from the service. Is there no government funding involved, directly or indirectly?
"Human Services Agency", for instance.   "Legal Aid Society" certainly receives some government funding. The Wall St Journal editorial page, one of your happy hunting grounds, has fulminated often enough against the evils done by legal aid societies (e.g. aiding and abetting class action suits) and many times advocated cutting off all funding.

Unless I miss my guess, your connection with the "Legal Aid Society", and possibly others, makes you a hog slopping at the government trough---and just possibly, a hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 12:49 AM

Shame I picked the wrong parent. I thought for sure I'd picked the right family to be into & get myself born rich. Hell, I was wearing a fur collar right at the start. Gee & I thought it was mink all along it was only fox.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 06:16 AM

In case anybody wants to know "evils done by legal aid societies" is sarcastic-- as you know, the first time I've ever used sarcasm.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 06:32 AM

Don Firth @ 7:34 PM

True, Don, but I don't know if some are smug or not. Sometimes feel very fortunate, however.


Agree with Bobert on who is born into what - that is why I suggested emphasis on the pre-school ages. More mentoring perhaps as the parents are usually caught up in the system.

I remember Newt Gingrich being ripped about 10 years ago for his suggestion of more "childrens' homes", i.e. Orphanages.

A harsh thought to many (normally those who don't have a clue regarding the situation) but I have seen more positive than negative results from this approach.

Janie, your comments?

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: LilyFestre
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 06:38 AM

All I have to say to Susu's Hubby is what comes around goes around.

Maybe you'll never need financial help, but someday, you WILL require help from SOMEONE....I wonder if you'll get hit in the face with the same attitude as you've shown to others. Or maybe it won't be you, maybe it will be your wife who needs help and she'll be faced with an uppity jackass such as yourself....guess you'd be ok with others treating her that way, huh? Yep...it'll come back and bite you in the butt...just wait....I have no doubt at all.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 08:00 AM

Good point, Michelle...

Yeah, what is happening in this country is that the safety net is getting smaller and smaller which mean that more folks who thought, "Hey, this can't happen to me.." will find that it very well can happen to them...

I wish that everyone had to wake up dirt poor just one day and understand and feel what it is like to be completely vulnerable... If folks could knoew this feeling they wouldn't say some of the insensitive stuff they have said here...

FACT: 1 in 5 of our children live in poverty.

FACT: 1 in 5 of our elderly live in poverty.

FACT: Poverty rates have increased every year for the last 5 years.

FACT: Contrary to popular opinion about poverty in the deep South, Wes Virgina has the highest pverty rate in the nation.

FACT: Congress has just elected to cut spending by cutting programs that help the poor.

It is so disheartening to hear the same folks who are the staunchest defenders of invading Iraq and all the billions wasted in that endeavor parrot the same old-same old misconceptions about something they know little about...

Oh, just one morning... That's all I ask...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 08:28 AM

Bobert, you are preaching to the choir.
Do you maintain that additional billions for entitlement programs is the answer?

I don't think people are being insensitive, just acknowledging that the present system is not working. This is a brave thing for them to do as opposed to just going along with things so others won't think they are being insensitive.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 09:47 AM

No, additional billions in tax breaks, set-asides, refunds and graft for millionaires is the answer.

Check the figures & see which has cost the U.S. more since the BuShite Junta's coup.

How does a welfare recipient cheating on an extra $20 of food stamps
compare with a Ken Lay or a Milliken or an Abramoff? Crying over pennies while the Fortunate Classes walk off with millions.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 09:56 AM

Oh, and, of course, additional billions for the Pentagon, military contractors, and the war machine.

That should just about do it.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 10:08 AM

Works for me, Greg F.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 10:22 AM

"Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G - PM
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 10:08 AM

Works for me, Greg F."

There is all anyone needs to know.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 11:53 AM

Two words, Peace;
Being facetious.

Like Greg F.s post helped with anything.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 12:21 PM

None of yours have so far. Take a lesson kid.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 02:44 PM

G,

Improvement in what sense? Whose definition of improvement we gonna work with? I don't think I can have a cogent discussion about that until we talk about values and assumptions, and probably a good bit of systems theory to boot.

Some of my assumptions and values, not necessarily in order of importance are:

Within the human race, some will always have more and some will always have less material goods. I place strong value on everyone having enough to eat, adequate shelter and adequate medical care when there is enough to go around. In this country, there IS enough to go around. I am a bit foggy when you look at world populations. Does anyone know if there is "enough" food, shelter and medical care available in the world to provide for the basic needs of everyone currently alove?

The reasons that poverty exists are fantastically complex. It is unreasonable for a society to aspire to develop any one program or sets of programs that will 'fix' the issue of poverty. It is not unreasonable for our society (at least given the current resources available) to aspire to ensure that the basic needs of of every individual are met.

Gotta go pick up my son.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Amos
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 03:32 PM

One of the reasons I pay as much in taxes as I do without complaining as much as I could is that I understand I do not operate in a vacuum but in a densely populated society, and the distribution of wealth in that society is on a bell curve.

I understand as well that soup kitchens, bread lines, and people sleeping on hot-air grates or under the lilac bushes in the park for want of any place or any group to call their own is a pathetically condmening reflection on our larger group. My own belief is that the vast majority of people flourish when given something to do which adds value and from which they can acquire exchange, some pride of place, a sense of being a person among other people. A small minority are too bent out of shape to respond to thes ebasic needs, but I think they are common denominators.

One of my favorite Mudcatters has a job as a job-coach for people who have serious deficits in their social abilities, for whatever reason. She teaches them, and coaches them on job sites on how to buckle down and produce.

For a miniscule fraction of the money this nation has spent killing people in the world, we could have a corps of socially-minded trainers and facilitators who could help turn the majority of the jobless, homeless, friendless, shaveless, bathless individuals that are found in every city into contirbuting memebers of society in one or another capacity.

This worked on a gigantic scale after the Great Depression, under FDR's leadership.

It is the lessons from that period that constantly remind me that some method of balancig the extremes on the bell-curve is necessary. It HAS to be coupled with education and individual kicks in the ass to the correct necessary degree. Some people need just a little, some need a lot. Hubby is not completely off the mark, he's just stuck in one corner of the whole picture.

I spent months between jobs last year, but I scrambled back through applying a lot of communication and flogging the networks.

Some people don't have such networks or don't know how to communicate, and a little training can do wonders.

A

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 04:45 PM

An individual swift kick, carefully aimed and judiciously applied, may do a particular individual a world of good. (If nothing else, it will make the kicker feel better--getting out all those frustrations, you know?)

However, large programs and policies will never have the ability to descriminate well when it comes to dishing out those swift kicks. And there is no evidence that programatic swift kicks have ever done anything to help anyone meet basic needs. Programatic 'swift kicks' assume simple answers, fail to take individual needs, abilities and circumstances into consideration, and harm more people than they help. Swift kicks needed meted out individually and with great care and consideration as to who might benefit from one. Swift kick policies are better left to smaller social units than units of government.

(Even at the smaller level, there is still the question of whose criteria should be used to determine if a swift kick is called for.
The diad of a two parent family can't even agree on that.)

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 07:36 PM

Few people are poor by choice. Most of the poor in our country work or are disabled or elderly. We no longer have the social programs in place, funded at appropriate levels, to see that this majority of the poor can get their BASIC NEEDS met.

Many of the homeless work or are disabled and receive SSI and or RSDI benefits. Our national economy is such that housing is out of reach for them. Where I live, in spite of insistence by county government that new developments include "affordable" housing, I myself could not afford most of it. People in my county who are disabled and low-income get preference for section 8 housing subsidies. For those in that highest priority category, the wait-list is currently 24 months long.

I am not up to speed on the research on the major factors that have led to such an increase in homelessness in the USA, I just see the varied circumstances of those whom I serve who are homeless, or approaching homelessness. But I would bet that part of the problem began with a well-intended drive to eliminate substandard housing. Another, related culprit was "Urban Renewal."

The thing is, the poor are a largely disenfranchised segment of our population. They don't vote in large numbers. They don't know they matter. They don't know how to vote and don't want to be embarrassed by asking. They don't have the time or energy to look beyond the next meal or the next month's water bill. They are too tired and discouraged to vote. They are not in a position to advocate effectively for themselves in our political system.

I keep saying "they", but it really isn't 'us' and 'them.' In the great web of existence, it is truly 'we.' I believe it is in our enlightened self-interest to see ourselves, to some degree, as our brother's keeper.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 08:05 PM

In the D.C. area, housing has become too expensive with all the urban renewal... Row houses that used to be boarding houses or rooming houses are being snapped up for renovation... I think it's safe to say that this is a trend that is occuring in many large cities across America....

When I was a social worker in Richmond, there was very little homelessness but there were areas where I could get my clients into...cheap...

But back then we alao had Title XX funds for alot of stuff, like bus transportation for medical appointment, counseling, training, etc... That money all but dried up under Reagan and I found myself racking up one heck of a lot of miles on the "welfare car"... There were days when I felt more like a taxi driver than a socail worker...

But in taking those purchased services away from out clients we also, in reality, cut their SSI or SSA Disability becuase now part of that money would have to go toward paying for things we used to be able to provide... I'm sure these cuts also had something to do with the increased homelessness rate...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 08:48 PM

What programs would I envision?

We actually have a number of good programs in place that are capable of providing a minimum acceptable standard of living for everyone in this country. The funding for these programs, however, has become disgracefully stingy.

As I noted in an earlier post, The Food Stamp program was tremendously successful in eliminating malnutrition in this country. It slowly was gutted.

With Medicare and Medicaid, we have the core of a national health insurance program in place. However, they are so underfunded as it now stands, and their reimbursement rates (especially medicaid) are so low that many medical practitioners no longer accept medicaid or medicare patients. This is not greed on the part of practitioners. Medicaid does not reimburse for most services at a rate that pays for the cost to deliver the service. Even in my agency (a public mental health clinic) where we are provided free rent from the county, the medicaid reimbursement rate does not cover our operating expenses. (And you may rest assured that I am far from overpaid.) Medical care is one area where I think socialized medicine is the only equitable and sustainable solution.

The Work-First program has turned into an ill-conceived disgrace. The old AFDC program was bad enough. The money and the resources and support services needed to effectively move people from welfare to sustainable work have never been put into place.

If you have tried to deal with the Social Security Administration you know how overwhelmed, understaffed, and rudely staffed their district offices are. I often will try to call on behalf of a client. Wait times for a real person to come on the line are commonly 45 minutes.

Now, just to let you know how 'for the common man' I am, I am going to stop now and go to Dani's house to watch the Duke-UNC basketball game. I know they are underdogs, but-GO HEELS!!! I'll be isolated there in a sea of Dook fans--even my only and dearly beloved child. All I can say is--it ain't because I haven't tried to raise him up in the right way.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:59 AM

I don't know much about the school lunch program. My impression, perhaps incorrect, is that in some areas it is under-utilized and in others it is over-utilized. I do know that the menu at my son's grammer school was generally very unappetizing and he much preferred to carry his lunch. But then--we also had lunch to send with him.

He would have LOVED to have had breakfast at school (kids can pay for it who don't qualify for the program.) We, however, did not think that a donut or a greasy sausage biscuit were particularly healthy food choices.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 12:11 PM

Even if one subscribes to the idea that only the "deserving poor" should have help from government programs to meet basic needs, and even if we used the most conservative notion of "deserving", we are not only not helping that more narrowly defined population, we continue to decrease the amount of money we are willing to spend.

It stinks.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,g
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 12:47 PM

Peace @ 2/07 12:21PM; YOUR attitude towards my posts gives me comfort

Janie, Just came here, basically for the purpose of seeing your comments. Very good! (and plentiful)
Two quick comments as I have to go out again; You are probably aware that 50% of the Worlds Children live in poverty, suffer from hunger at times but it has been proven that there is more than enough food on any given day for all. The overall stumbling block, particulary in the underdeveloped countries, is government.

I would remind you that the "cut in funds" is a nominal decrease in the annual increase of funding. (not to say that is right or wrong)

Will have to reread your posts and reply in depth later. Amos also had a couple interesting comments. I could think about what the "goody bags" for just one of the 'Awards shows' could do for the poor in New Orleans.
Every guest, presenter, etc at the MTV awards received a "bag" with a value of $37,000 EACH. And that is just one show.

In my opinion, our problem is delivery of services with education/training being a large part of that.

Thanks again, Janie.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 01:59 PM

G: FOAD

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 03:22 PM

Bobert I agree with you. We are killing them with a "thousand little deaths."

When dollars and cents are scarce to begin with, and you start adding a small prescription co-pay here, take away a few dollars a month for transportation, hike the water bill 5%, decrease the food stamp subsidy $5.00 a month, what you end up with is some one in quite desperate straits. Our social safety net programs were developed incrementally and they have been substantially stripped of their effectiveness incrementally.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: LilyFestre
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 04:19 PM

School meals are a great idea however, at least for the schools in my area, the breakfasts are very heavy on carbs...a bagel and cereal....a danish and cereal....you get the idea. Not only isn't it balanced, that kind of combination is a recipe for a sluggish kid. Still, it is better than not having breakfast at all.

I am currently working in a first grade classroom with under 20 children...there are at least 4 children who get themselves up and on the bus without the help of an adult. If it weren't for school breakfasts and lunches, they wouldn't be having anything to eat.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 04:58 PM

I hear that. If it wasn't for a kind teacher when I was a kid there would have been many days in my sixth grade year when I would have been hungry for days at a time. The people here who have never done without should shut their traps because they basically know not whereof they speak. Last thing I would ever need is some government arsehole telling me that my mother SHOULD have been able to feed us. Right. Now piss off.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 05:22 PM

No offense to most of the posters here.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 05:35 PM

None taken.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:10 PM

I'm glad.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:42 PM

We have an opportunity, on this thread, to hear directly from people who, now or in the past, have lived in very reduced financial circumstances, some in childhood and some as disabled or elderly adults. I suspect there are others who are attending to this thread who have chosen not to post from fear or distaste of being lumped into the more common stereotypes of those who are poor, and that more than a few mudcatters would not be likely to argue that they meet, or come close to meeting a definition of the working poor.

Clearly, I consider my own 'voice of experience' to be worth hearing, and many of you have been listening, and listening pretty respectfully, whether you agree with me or not. How much more worth hearing, are the voices of those who have lived, or who are living close to the bone. I think some of the anger that you hear, from them and from me, is worth thinking about. I don't hear 'entitlement' in those voices.

Peace, Barry, Art, and others who post to this thread from your own experiences, thank you very much.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 07:39 PM

Oh! And my Tarheels lost, but it was another of those wonderfully exciting nailbiters that the Duke/UNC rivalry is known for.

Just wanted to let you know I have my priorities straight.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:39 PM

Yes, many of us have lived in poverty. I raised two children in poverty. I worked part-time and at Christmas accepted welfare and any other hand-outs I could scrounge. Both my children started working at fourteen to help make ends meet. Yes, it was a struggle but it was temporary.

When I talk to my children about those days, they are always surprised. They have no recollection of ever being poor. It never occurred to them that I was struggling to put food on the table.

This really puzzles me. I wonder if its time to re-evaluate poverty. Is it simply a matter of money or is there more to it? I know that some people feel impoverished while others do not. Since I am one who escaped, I feel uniquely qualified to contribute to a discussion that would inform social services about ways to help people help themselves.

Sometimes I think that the point is not to help people. One reason I hated welfare was that it seemed they wanted me to lie. Once I needed money for food but not for rent. I didn't fit the profile so I had to jump through the hoops. It would have been far easier had I needed both rent and food.

In other words, you have to be destitute. There is nothing to help those who are on the brink of ruin and there is nothing to help those who do have some initiative.

I remember another time when I was offerred a part-time job. I had to turn it down because when my wages, and the associated transportation,, childcare and clothing costs were subtracted, my monthly income was actually less.

When I finally decided to educate myself with the help of a student loan, I ended up owing $50,000.00 to the govt. If I had been on welfare for the same amount of time, far more money would have been given to me.

So where is the incentive? I wasn't rewarded for my motivation, I was punished. Go figure!

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:38 PM

In the US. WAIT TELL YOU SEE THIS UPCOMING BUDGET. A sorry state for the Union. The military will rape & pillage. The cuts will be deep to the bone. Funding will be less than forth coming for most social services that survive the axe. Remember when the gov. does not increase a budget for a program, it's killing that program. Like Bush's underfunded pet project Headstart, that means there are no cost of living increases for teachers & staff, no way to pay extra for the hikes in fuel, food, office supplies, transportation, facility repairs, building upkeep, & etc....... & education will be second to subsistance & survival. Abuse will continue to cycle in a downward spiral (headstart does do alot in these areas). Community Action programs will be futher gutted & future generations will lack those that came before them. We are dumbing down the nation by neglecting the poor & we will pay dearly when the time comes to face our bills.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 09:13 AM

Only have a minute but suggest everyone read Dianavans' post several times. Very good.

And Barry, the cuts are not cuts, simply a slight decrease in the annual increase in funding.

More money? How about trying to keep kids in school? 50% of the inner city 9th graders do not make it to the 12th grade. Where do you suppose they end up getting money from. (ignore stealing and drug dealing here)

And yes, as well as working with, I had a couple rock bottom experiences but as dianavan said, knew it was only temporary. However, it was tough while it lasted.

Poverty is not just a lack of money. We need to remove the causative factors rather than just throwing additional money at it which helps to promote it.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 09:19 AM

the cuts are not cuts, simply a slight decrease in the annual increase in funding.

Thank you George Doublespeak Orwell.

The net result in the real world and in real dollars- taking inflation & rising costs generally into account- is a cut.

However you want to try and spin it, a cut.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 11:31 AM

Here is a link to one of many articles in newspapers across the state of NC on the crisis created by "reform" of the state public mental health system.    http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ/Page/WSJ_ContentPage&c=Page&cid=1128768676103. This "reform" movement was the result of an alliance between fiscal conservatives and the Alliance for the Mentally Ill, (AMI) and increases in meidcaid costs as the feds. gradually decreased funding and became more restrictive with covered services.

    North Carolina is just one in a long line of states that this has occurred, and it has been a dismal failure everywhere from the standpoint of mental health care for the indigent.

    I do not normally have a bone to pick with AMI, but in this instance I do. In North Carolina, AMI is largely made up of the middle-class and upper-middle class families of people with severe and persistent mental illness. They saw, quite correctly, the lack of services available to their loved ones that could make big differences in the quality of life of their ill relatives. I think it never occurred to them, and still has not, that the vast majority of people served by public mental health are NOT part of financially solvent families. In persuading to the State to go for the icing, the indigent had the cake stolen right off of their plates. AMI continues to place all the blame on the state and have thus far accepted no responsibility for their ignorance of the needs of indigent people in the State.

The state definitely was having money problems. I didn't see them cut payments or funding for programs serving the middle class or the wee-off.

Again, it stinks.

Again, it does not have to be this way.

Again, the mentally ill, a very vulnerable population, do not vote in significant numbers, and are not able to pay lobbyists or contribute to election campaigns.

This is not a local issue. This is a national issue.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 11:32 AM

pretend you don't see all the typos;O)

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 12:14 PM

The only thing the government owes all it's citizens is an equal opportunity to succeed.   It is completely up to the individual whether they do or not.   In a capitalistic society, some will succeed and some with fail.   That has produced the greatest collective wealth in the history of the world.

Bobert- I looked up numbers you requested.   The top 1% of wage earners in 2005 made over $295,495.   (is that more or less than the collective income of people who responded to this post?)   They make 16.8% of the total income in this country and pay 34.3% of taxes.   (Based on 2005 IRS numbers) TAX THE POOR.

Ron: Last year I did 51 seminars to over 5,500 people.   This year I have already done 11 seminars to around 1,000 people and have another one next week and one in March.   This included training all the United Way 211 phone operators (two sessions)UAW Canton (300 people), Senator Basham energy town hall, 300 empoyees of Budco in Downtown Detroit, and Southeast Michigan Community Agency in Taylor among others.   

I also did an hour TV show called "Welfare Rights" with activist Maureen Taylor on the Detroit Public Tv station for 80,000 listeners.   (I also did an interview for All Things Considered on renewable energy- Michigan Only)   Next week I have another senators town hall meeting in downtown Detoit.   I know all the major players for the low income groups in Detroit and spend a lot of time with them.   At many events I am the lone or near lone white person in the room.   90% of my speaking engagements are referrals or requests from other people who hear me speak.   I always stay for the whole meeting and discussions afterwards (as opposed to hit and run speakers who make a speech and immediately leave)   Don't tell me I don't understand what is going on in the city of Detroit.    I hang out with THAW (the heat and warmth fund) United Way, Human Services, and other low income leaders.   I help thousands of low income people a year.   How many do you help?

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 12:24 PM

It is completely up to the individual whether they [ succeed ] or not.

This is either meant as a joke in very poor taste, or the level of complete and utter ignorance it displays is beyond belief.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 12:44 PM

Larry K.,

I don't question that you, in your way, help many people. And people sure need help.

I don't really see 'government' as a faceless entity. I see government as the collective side of the expression of a social contract amongst individuals and subgroups that involves mutual responsibility. And I think we as a collective have more responsibility than simply assuring equal opportunity. (And surely you do not think that our government does is successful in assuring equal opportunity for everyone. How could it?) I believe that as a society, we have a responsibilty to stop and help those who DO fail, no matter the reason. We have that responsibility both individually and collectively.

No where in 'the rule book' does it say that you and I have to agree on that. But people suffer and die more frequently and to a greater extent when too much emphasis is placed on either the individual or the collective side of the contract. Individuals in this country are suffering and dying in the midst of plenty because the 'rights' of the haves are not being balanced by the needs of the have nots.

No one deserves to starve.
No one deserves to die from lack of medical care.
No one deserves to suffer exposure.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 01:38 PM

Larry K.

Questions:   

1. Do you view government as an agent of society?

2. If so, what do you believe the primary charge of government to be?

3. If you do not view government as an agent of society, what is its purpose and its role?

FYI, my own belief is that government is an agent of society and its primary purpose is to serve the common good and promote the welfare of the people.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 01:42 PM

Jeez, Janie, ya think maybe Larry should read the preamble to the U.S. Constitution?

Naaahhh, no point.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 02:42 PM

Very interesting thread.......

as has been said - really we had this debate in England in 1944 - the men got on the boats at D Day and reputedly shouted at Winston Churchill , there 'd better be some jobs for us when we get back.
Since then there has been this tacit belief in a 'welfare state' and any government that pisses about with it too much, or doesn't pay lip service soon gets the heave ho.

My wife has been disabled since getting rheumatoid arthritis when she was 26 - over 30 years ago, so I know all about the shortcomings of the our medical facilities - but by and large there is a good natured attempt to help everybody as much as possible.

we went through a period of electing these right wing rip off merchants in the 80's, but it eventually got through to people that they couldn't all be millionaires in red braces shouting 'sell! sell!' down mobile phones. Took some time! You can't expect enlightenment as a blanket phenomena.

The most interesting point in a way came from Martin Gibson - can you plan your life sensibly - life is a very random business. I bet in the mid 1950's when there was another 15 years to run of the great folk scare - folk singing looked a pretty solid profession.

I think life would be boring if everything happened just as we expected it to happen. I guess we all do our best with what we've got.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 02:52 PM

Greg F.; explain "cut" when more money will be spent next year than this, a percentage higher than the current inflation rate.
Any other comments on eliminating the problem, i.e. "causative factors" or keeping kids in school as opposed to the desparaging remark you made?

Janie, I don't have all the facts before me but I know of no one who has starved to death, can't get medical treatment (hospitals MUST provide care to the indigent) I am not suggesting that we do not have a serious problem in the US. We do and have had for the more than 50 years I can remember. I notice than some here do not comment on suggestions that might be useful in at least reducing poverty/near poverty.

Get this idea! The legalizing of common illegal drugs. While I don't really care who does it when it doesn't affect others, I have personally turned in two drug locations in the past 6 months. All that really happened was the traffic died down for a while, like they were tipped. One site moved to another smaller town. This included one man who had was just released from prison after 3.5 years for the same offense. The reason I bring up the legalization is due to the broken down vehicles stopping by these places with small children who were obviously not receiving proper care. This was done from an undercover apartment in the complex. The "war on drugs" has not worked, is not working, and if legalized, the price would drop drastically and not be so expensive for the parents of these children,
leaving more money for their care which, in too many cases, are 'our' tax dollars at work.

By the way, the guy who did 3.5 years was collared by the DEA when we went to them 4 years ago. Nothing like peeking out a window early in the morning and seeing those blue Windbreakers with those yellow letters printed on the back.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 02:58 PM

Anyone who tried to tell the occupants of the many Black and Hispanic ghettos that they live in an equal opportunity society would, I suspect, not like the answer they would most likely get.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 03:00 PM

...and Kat, I somewhat understand your concern with the money being spent on Iraq and Afghanistan. As far as the world goes, it is not the responsibility of our government to feed and clothe the world.
(even though I might secretly wish we could)

Our Governments' job is to help take care of its citizens including protecting them from harm. This would include preventing future 9/11,s which took far more lives than we lost to starvation in the past century.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 03:53 PM

G,

People can get emergency medical care by going to an ER. They can not get needed on-going treatment for chronic illness or medications other than the samples the ER doc might give them. Tranportation for emergency care, barring the need for an ambulance, is not available to many people living in rural areas.

I guess I can't say that I am aware of anyone actually starving to death. But go into the hospitals that serve large urban areas, into the public health clinics that provide some care, and up the hollows where people aren't getting any care. I think I can guarantee you will find malnutrition and chronic disease related to malnutrition.

I agree that figuring out how to help kids stay in school, and training/educational programs are necessary and helpful. But they are not all that is needed. And the resources that were once there for training programs are drying up. Pell grants, grants-in-aid for higher education, etc. are harder to get. North Carolina has a pretty good community college system that provides good vocational certificates, associate degrees and college transfer programs. I repeatedly see people have to drop out because of lack of child care resources, or because of transportation woes.

The Work-First program in my area cranks out a lot of nursing assistants and medical transcriptionists. These people now get to be the working poor. Food stamps get reduced or cut. Medicaid ends for Momma. If they were lucky enough to have one of the limited number of housing or day care supplements, those get reduced or cut. In some cases, Work-First will help people get cars. Oh goody. Now they have to factor in insurance, gas, maintenance and repairs, taxes, titles, licenses, etc. And since Momma also has hypertension, she gets to try to pay for her own meds and monitoring now. She, and her family, quite likely experience an over-all loss by her going to work. Don't get me wrong--she feels better about herself to be working, but she is still dirt poor and not making ends meet, and not getting the medical care she needs.

More later.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 04:46 PM

I like the idea of investing taxes corporately? Do you mean like Enron, World Com and all the other 'bad apples' or the top 30% of largest US corporations that paid zero 0 taxes the last five years - .

As a so-called Capitalist society the US taxpayers paid for the highways that all the large automakers encouraged the govt to build in the 40s & 50s
all the while they bought up tram and light rail transit companies and tore up the track so people would have to buy cars. The CEO's of the top automakers were found guilty and ordered to pay $1 dollar fines each.

Handouts to the lazy? HOw about the $500 million US handout that Bush gave to the poor oil industry to search for more oil (right after Katrina). Need we say anything about the defense industry as well?

Ebbie, good point on financial responsibility, when you have a president that has taken a surplus to the deepest deficit of any nation in HISTORY and now cuts social programs all the while giving the top 1% the largest tax cut in history..
DOnt you know that deficits dont matter any more? The will just devalue the dollar and let everyone else pay for it.

I suggest SH and MGibson read the Empire of Debt.

Globalism is dead. Even though the proponents like to say that through unrestricted corporate growth the rising tide will raise everyones ship the real truth is that since the early seventies the average working income has dropped 15-20% and now the average household needs two incomes to make ends meet. WHile a few of the richest have gotten richer, the disparity between the rich and poor has increased.

This is why governments all over have offloaded their responsibility on food banks, and the stupid tax (lotteries).

Why was there a meltdown in Asia, because unrestricted money markets
funneled money in while there was growth, and just as quickly pulled it all out when the bubble came. Note that China and India which had fixed currencies were not affected.

The perfect example that globalism is dead, is when the prime minister of Malaysia decided to go the other way and fix the currency low enough to encourage exports, stop the outflow of capital and institute various classic Keyenesian measures that all the critics said were obsolete. Everyone averted their eyes and awaited the collapse.
It didnt come, Malaysia re-emerged much better and stable than ever and lo and behold Mahathir Mohammed the prime minister of Malaysia was the feted at the (Globalist) Davos conference in 2003.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 05:02 PM

G,

I hear your voice on this thread as rational and compassionate. I hear that you are genuinely interested in ways for people to be empowered. As I said above, I absolutely agree with you that education and training are very important pieces of any policy designed to minimize poverty. I don't think you accept that full-employment, if that were possible, would not end poverty, or that many poor people work, work hard and work full-time. They work in necessary jobs that will never pay well. I don't think you understand that many people can not work.


I do not expect that government can solve all of this. I don't think there are ideal solutions. I think that we as individuals and as communities of people must also be responsible for ourselves and for others.

And I also think that over the last 25 years, our public policies have continued to tip too far in the direction of the haves. I don't think there is balance now. We are not taking care of our own. We are not helping our own be able to care better for themselves.

Anger is a natural reaction to suffering.

The pendulum swings. It needs to swing back the other way now.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 05:05 PM

Anybody here ever had "must-provide" "indigent care" or care on a US medical card? I have. And it almost killed me several times.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 07:56 PM

I'm one of those people who think 'the middle way' is usually the best choice--the path that does the most good and the least harm. When I consider examples of various political systems and economic and social theories the world over, it seems to me that liberal thinking and philosophy, at least that viewed as such in the USA, IS the middle path within our own political and social system.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 10:19 PM

Larry K--


Nice try at obfuscation. I'm so impressed by your noblesse oblige. I'm sure the serfs are too--which seems to be your attitude toward them--most of the poor, you believe, are so due to their own bad choices. Remarkably close to the old Calvinist attitude--riches as a sign of God's blessing; poverty--well just how did you annoy God? But I'll bet a nickel you're not Calvinist.

Congratulations on picking your parents carefully. Too bad everybody wasn't as careful as you. Perhaps you can give some pointers on how to do it.

But you still haven't addressed my point. Exactly who pays for all those talks you give? What is the source of those funds? Especially, the talks given under the auspices of, as you put it "Legal Aid Society" Who pays for those?

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 02:58 AM

Larry,
what do you earn for the privledge to apease the poor? I'd also like to know. I still have a hard time believing you're talking poor & not middle class. Unless you're handing out handouts & feeding free breakfasts & lunches if you're trying to convince the poor to manage money they don't have to manage, I don't see how your listeners could be poor.
A family of 4. lets say the average lower middle class family pays.

$125 weekly for food = $6,000
$500 monthly for a roof over their heads = $6,000
$100 monthly co-pays for meds & visits = $1,200
$50 monthly for transportation (Disabled, can't drive because of meds, rural areas don't provide much, if any, free transportation)= $600
$6,000 yearly water, sewer, elec, heating, tel(s), taxes
$2,200 yearly car + expences + taxes + gas

I don't think these numbers are to out of line. There are no education costs in here because the best a poor person is able to get are some scholorships & grants to a public system that will still charge. So if some one makes enough to be able to afford the above then they are not going to recieve much in the way of assistence if any. What's the now poverty level down for yearly income? They're in the red before they can ever see black. The above I'd consider to for a family of 4 making $30,000 a year pretty close to the belt but not poor. OH SHIT, I didn't cover the cost of health
coverage! OH SHIT, I didn't cover the costs of child care. OH SHIT, I didn't cover the costs to hear some guy tell me how to manage my left overs. What the hell are you spending food money on some guy telling us how to manage our money, you jerk. ALICE, UP TO THE MOON!!!!
You hang out with the THAW. I'm in AWE! You must feel good when you shake their smooth clean hands. You rub elbows with those that provide low income services. Are we having a good time yet? Are we making money yet? You're a 2 bit hustler thats does well as long as there are "Lower Income People". You help lots of lower income people, please you don't even know what a poor person looks like, just some bastard that's to lazy to work or some scummy vet bum who left his marbles in Viet Nam & can't deal. You should be washing Janie's feet. You should've walked in the shoes of those that I grew up with, most had young dreams of doing better than what they were born into. Few did, most didn't, alot of poor die. Not from stavation but from watching the backs of their fathers break when they were to young. Watching the hearts of their mothers break when they couldn't afford anyting but an emergency visit with no chance of follow through. Watching the heart of a kid binging ripped open because his best buddy was shot in the head because someone needed money for ??? It's heart breaking to watch a kid see every one around them get beaten bloody every time they take a step forward & end up SOME HOW 2 steps back, just a case of bad luck, YOU THINK? That is the life of the poor & that's only the cloudy side. You should live it when it pours & believe me it mostly pours there. some times you forget that there's a sun & forget God, he lives down the block. You haven't a clew what the poor suffer. Get off that high horse of yours & at least open your eyes. I'm calling it as I see it.   
Barry who climb out but remembers well & is still surviving

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 04:54 AM

You could see that one coming from somebody. i bet Larry's not a bad bloke really. But the tone of his messages was bloody hurtful and directed at people who are quite obviously hurting enough.

the mercy of it is, that most of them wouldn't have have a computer and been aware of what he and Martin said. Some would though, and they would have been hurt.

we can't all be winners. its the nature of the game. decency in your manners to the losers costs nothing, except subduing that impulse we all feel to lash out.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 06:23 AM

And the people say....

AMEN!

J

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: autolycus
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 01:32 PM

We've heard a fundamental conservative position - it all starts in the final analysis with the individual.

In the final analysis, yes and no.

On the one hand, the sooner i take MY responsibility the better. And most of us resist doing that, hence blaming.

On the other hand, are the conservatives really saying that the Great Depression of 1929 happened because millions of people suddenly came ober all lazy, and if that wasn't the reason, why do they think it did, and where does that leave their good-for-nothing theory of the poor?

And WHEN are our conservatives going to directly respond to stuff like the BILLIONS in Christmas bonuses that Wall Streeters get, while others in the U.S. are starving or struggling, WHEN? ABSOLUTELY DIRECTLY? WHEN?       EVER?

Auto.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 02:13 PM

Auto, a prime example of you not understanding the problem. What do Christmas bonuses have to do with being poor?

The concept is getting the poor in a position to also receive a bonus, rather than just squeaking by. Your statement smacks of socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 02:17 PM

And yours smacks of solecism.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 02:37 PM

And what, exactly, would be wrong with a little socialism?

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 03:55 PM

Real situation with some demographics changed. Not an atypical one in psychiatric populations.

48 year old divorced female. Trained and then worked for a number of of years as an X-ray technician. Mild symptoms starting in her 20's of what gradually developed into a full Bipolar disorder. Both manic and depressed episodes, base-line agitated depression (or mixed episode,) that includes anxiety, social phobia and panic disorder with agoraphobia. When fully compliant with medications and supportive therapy, still has significant symptoms. Symptoms and her level of functioning gradually worsened until by her mid 30's she could no longer work, and finally was diagnosed with Bipolar I Disorder. 3 years and one bankruptcy later, she was finally awarded Social Security Disability. She got medicaid for a year while appealing her social security. When she finally got the social security, the $830 per month made her financially ineligible for medicaid. It was another year before she qualified for Medicare. During that year, we were able to provide her with mental health services on a sliding scale fee. It was tough for her to come up with the $5.00 per visit, but she did it. I was able to get her medications through Patient Assistance programs run by the drug manufacturers.

During relatively brief periods over the past several years, the symptoms have improved just enough for her to attend 1 to 3 classes a semester at a community college. When she is doing well, she can sit in class as long as she gets there before anyone else so she can sit in the very front of the room. That way she can not see her classmates who may look at her, leading to severe panic and fleeing the class room.   Sometimes she actually will finish a semester. More often than not, she enters another more severe cycle where she can not leave her house, even to sit on the porch, and has to drop out of school.

When she became eligible for Medicare, state and insurance regulations no longer allowed us to base her fee on a sliding scale. Medicare payed about 50% of the charges and she became responsible for the other 50%. We were not allowed to write off her balance. She withdraws from treatment periodically because of her inability to pay her co-pay. I have urged her to continue in treatment anyway as I doubt my agency would ever turn it over for collection. But she believes in paying her bills. I will not go into the gory details of what happens in her life when she stops treatment. She is no longer eligible for patient assistance through the drug companies because of the new Part D Medicare. I have not yet found a medicare D drug formulary that includes all the necessary medicines in the monthly quantities she needs.

G--If you really have a plan for this woman to get a Christmas bonus that does not involve a tax supported, probably government administered social program, I want to hear about it.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 03:56 PM

Greg, Greg, Greg! You have such a way with words - lets' address the problem which is a lack of education and direction. I thought someone would comment on the 50% dropout rate in the inner city schools. Do you not think that might contribute to the welfare rolls?

Guest, we have some socialism now, what good is it doing? The USSR thought that was a good idea for a while.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 04:10 PM

To the contrary, G, I very specifically acknowledged that education and training must be a piece of the picture. Why will you not acknowledge that it is only one piece?

And if the drop out rate in inner city schools if 50%, that strongly suggests that there a societal failure. Or do you think that 50% of kids in cities are just screwing up for the heck of it?

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 04:14 PM

Can't resist.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 04:15 PM

200?!

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 04:40 PM

Ebbie,

The more time I spend on this thread, the wiser your one comment seems:>)

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: number 6
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 04:47 PM

From Charles Dickens A Christmas Carol

"Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude," returned the gentleman, "a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?"

"Nothing!" Scrooge replied.

"You wish to be anonymous?"

"I wish to be left alone," said Scrooge. "Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned -- they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there."

"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."

"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population. Besides -- excuse me -- I don't know that."

"But you might know it," observed the gentleman.

"It's not my business," Scrooge returned. "It's enough for a man to understand his own business, and not to interfere with other people's. Mine occupies me constantly. Good afternoon, gentlemen!"


sIx

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 07:26 PM

It was Humphrey House (1960's biographer of Dickens) who pointed out that Dickens was apolitical and hated politicians. House pointed out, what Dickens was saying was that our political allegiances are irrelevant. What matters is that we behave well towards each other.

Just basic human decency.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 08:12 PM

There are many different groups of poor people. What I am concerned about, are the mentally challenged who are left to roam the streets and become prey to drug dealers and pimps. There are also those who are physically challenged. I think these people deserve to be in a category all by themselves. In other words, there should be no dispute about their entitlement to basic needs and we should have the decency to provide for those who are less fortunate.

The other categories are the single parents, drunks and drug addicts. There are probably a few more categories, too.

Single parents and those who are unskilled or uneducated need job training or higher education as well as access to daycare.

I guess that leaves us with the drunks and the drug addicts.

Unfortunately, everyone wants to tar welfare recipients with the same brush. I think we need to approach the problem based on the needs of specific groups. To talk about all of them in one breath is pretty insensitive and very stereotypical.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 08:22 PM

I recently heard that 76% of black males do not graduate from high school in Baltimore City...

Yes, Janie, this is a major social problem and major problems aren't easily solved... What we need to do is take the Great Society, the New Deal and throw in a healthy dose of the Marshall Plan and really make the efforts to bust up some rather disturbing cycles...

And we need to stop incarcerating folks who have drug problems and we need to reduce out incarceration rates drasticly and this is going to take a major comittment but, hey, if we mirror who things have been going the wrong way for the last 20 years over the next 20, how is America to survive it's own self??? I mean, who will be left to pay to incarcerate 10,000,000 to 20,000,000 folks when the Chinese money runs out???

These are some serious qustions...

What the US is doing now ain't working... A 76% black drop out rate in Baltimore will come back 'round and cripple us over a given period of time...

This has to be America's largest domestic challenge and one that it can not afford to loose...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 09:23 PM

I totally agree, bobert.

The trouble is that the people in power are only interested in short term solutions, if at all. They are not at all interested in 'the greatest good'. They know that their immediate family will have access to education and all the finer things in life. They could care less about the struggling masses.

The middle and lower classes are so embroiled in racism, homophobia and nationalism that they waste all of their energy on negativity. Imagine what could happen if the middle and lower classes would stop reacting to the propaganda that divides them. They are also struggling to pay the rent and put food on the table.

Its gonna take a miracle.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 10:35 PM

The history of the labor movement keeps running through my head as I read this thread. I also can't help but contrast worker conditions and protections in West Virginia, where labor unions have been strong to those in North Carolina where I now live, and where workers have few protections. It is, and always has been a "right to work' state. The rise of the labor movement in this country was the result of the big industrialists treating most of the labor force as nothing but a commodity. The rise of the great middle class after World War II was largely the result of the unions securing living wages and improved working conditions for millions of blue collar workers. The 'great capitalists' largely were content to treat the labor force like dirt until they were forced to change. And societal responsibility to the individual as being supportive of the collective good was a national value that developed out of the labor movement.
    The pendulum swings. The unions became big businesses themselves, and many union leaders were just as currupt as many corporate leaders. And the world changed. Third world countries on their way up the capitalist economy ladder became able to effectively compete with the American and European labor forces. Their workers and their environments weren't and aren't afforded the same protections, so they can work and produce 'on the cheap.' Globalization caught the labor movement unprepared. Instead of trying to encourage decent labor practices abroad, they relied on protectionism and shot themselves in the foot. It would have been in the enlightened best interests of the labor movement to have encouraged and supported workers abroad to organize as their industries grew.
    Now the unions have lost much of their power and effectiveness as technology and cheap overseas labor have reduced our own labor force.
    And the 'great capitalists' of today--the huge multinational corportations and their CEO's, once again view the common man as a disposable commodity. They again have pretty much full control of our national government. And you see what is happening.
   
Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 10:46 PM

So, Guest G, you were going to tell us how the woman Janie cited was to get a Christmas bonus. We're still waiting.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 11:47 PM

Common man...disposable commodity....I know! Let's go start a war! It will give jobs to all the poor people. Yeh! And training and education too! That will take care of those high school drop outs. Get 'em off the streets. Teach'em a little dicipline.

Hey--so some kids die. They weren't doing anything but sucking up tax dollars anyway. Shucks, alot of 'em aren't even white. Civilian casualties 'over there?' Hey--we try to minimize collateral damage, but we've got some profits to protect. And if we are going to war, it is especially important that we protect our oil interests.

Ah. I'm just getting more pissed off by my own sarcasm. And mad ain't always smart and effective. Good night.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Troll
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 12:54 PM

Bobert, until people start to value education for its own sake again, we will have a major drop-out problem in this country.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 11:13 PM

In some ways, this discussion really illustrates that poverty is a mega-issue. A complex soup that all mixed together, finally reflects the balance of values of the culture. The ingredients, their number and their proportions, are not fixed. The recipe-and the end product-vary. But every institution within a society plays a role in the amount and nature of poverty, and visa versa.

Our government is not something other than us. WE are the society. WE are the culture-bearers. The government is OUR agent. It reflects US. And it lags behind the shifting values of a culture.

I think (hope) the Right has run out of momentum. The time is right for change. The pendulum appears to be just past that point of weightlessness. Liberals, minorities advocacy groups, the Left, Labor, progressive religious institutions, and Civil Libertarians need to be moving toward an effective coalition. They(we)need to already be trying to reach some modicum of balance among their own differences.

And let us encourage our young people to be involved. We need their vigor, their idealism, their knowledge of their world today and where they want to go with it.

Jeez! Sounds like I'm writing a speech. We need a good, martial hymn right here:>)

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 05:26 PM

I think (hope) the Right has run out of momentum

Not.

(more's the pity)

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 01:49 PM

The Right does run out of momentum--but not bullshit. It has ever been thus.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 02:46 PM

Real situation #2. Again with demographics changed.

Single white female in her late 30's. Borderline intellectual functioning. Terrible childhood history of physical, emotional and sexual abuse. Significant history of alcohol and drug problems. Significant family history of emotional and psychological dysfunction.   

   She put the alcohol and drugs down several years ago. She actually began to work in therapy. She has been clean for about 5 years now. She works 3 jobs and works 7 days a week. She lives in the cheapest, worst housing available in my area. If no financial emergencies come up (car breakdown, visit to the ER, etc.) She can just pay her rent and utilities with the pay she gets from 3 jobs. She does her laundry in her bathtub because she can't afford the laundry mat. When she doesn't have the money for gas to get back and forth to work, she has an acquaintance who will take her, provided she has sex with him. I will occasionally round up food and clothing for her. I help her with her budgeting--there just isn't enough to go around.

She has all the job skills she is capable of developing, and is working at her level of ability. She is not eligible for any kind of financial assistance.

I'd also like to hear the plan to "pull her up" to a place where she gets a living wage and a nice Christmas bonus.

Janie

Subject: another Insult to the Poor
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 02:54 PM

If you want to give the poor a fighting chance, lets make the tax cuts permanent.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,Just a Mudcat Brit
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 03:05 PM

I don't confess to know any thing about US politics but why isn't this woman (Janie) in your parliament or President even?
Yes, I know, it's money isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,Name not given--need no grief from cops or g
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 03:17 PM

About six months ago I was in another city doing some work. I stayed at a hostel-type place. I encountered a woman there who was bruised up pretty good. I spoke with her. She had been beaten by a gang that has a reputation for dealing drugs, running prostitution and weapons. The gang was looking for her because they thought she was going to speak with the police and testify against them. The police wanted to speak with her but they then intended to release her without any protection. Long and the short: I got her out of town to a 'safe house' where she received treatment she'd needed for a long time. (She was/is on a methadone program and she has AIDS. Her mental state was terrible--as you might imagine.) She returned to the hostel a few weeks back while she was in town for a day. The fellow at the desk told me she said hello and that she was looking healthy, happy and peaceful. All she needed was a break, and she got one. Sometimes, that's all people need--a break.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 03:47 PM

Vote for Pedro

J

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 04:47 PM

Hey, where have I ever suggested that we will never have those that require continual aid and care, some from cradle to grave. That is a given. We will never see the need for group homes and mental institutions go away in our lifetime.

Janie, you and I don't seem to agree that starting a program to save the very young - yes, in some cases, an orphange type situation as the parents don't have to be physically dead for the child to be treated like one. Once the pattern of skipping school, learning to live on the dole, (and here is that big catch phrase) not learning personal responsibility is adapted, changing the direction of those is almost an impossibility and at the least, untenable.

And, "name not given", I am not against helping one individual. If everyone did that, the problem would would cease to exist. (with adequate followup) Why would you expect grief from me? While that one act on your part does not make you a hero in my eyes, it was an admirable act. You make my point; a leg up until the person is able to stand on their own two legs.

Additionally, some of cases will never get to a point where they will start receiving "Christmas bonuses". Janie, your two examples involved people in their 30's and 40's. I am insisting on action with those BEFORE preteens. Never liked the adage that "you can't teach an old dog new tricks". One of the reasons is I am now one of those old dogs and in many cases, it is true. As you well know, when a pattern of behavior is established and allowed to exist, change is very, very difficult, if not impossible, in most cases.

I have had experiences where an eighteen year old awarded a full athletic scholarship could not carry on when put in a college atmosphere where he had to interact with his peers. His growing up with one abusive parent obviously caused him to self destruct when placed in a group that did not have the same societal experience that he had while living at home.

I think we must start with the young, the very young, as I believe we had proven in the past 40 years the current methodology is not accomplishing the goals we all like to think are going to occur any day now.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 05:08 PM

G--you mean, sorta like we did with the "Indian Schools"?

Ask Native Americans about that wonderful experience of benevolence.

Watch "Rabbit Fence."



Newflash.

Most parents do the very best they can for their children, given the knowledge and the resources, both internally and externally, available to them.

How about we look at the myriad ways we as a society can support families and parents. If at all possible, families need to be left whole. There are times when parents are emotionally or physically unfit or unable to provide nonabusive or non-neglectful care of thier children, and then I agree, the children need removed from the home.   

But a policy of routinely removing children from their families in order that they learn the correct values and skills to stay off the public dole sucks for air.

Talk to professionally trained Child Protective Service Workers. Ask them about the scarcity of resources to help families function in emotionally and socially healthy ways.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: autolycus
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 05:23 PM

I laid out some of the conservative position - no response from conservatives to the analysis.

Then I request some strsight answers to some straight questions that various people have put -another thundering silence.

Comparing vast bonuses with the starving of the U.S. and we're asked what the connection is supposed to be. I'll suggest one in a tick. Then comes the cracking, quality response, "It smacks of socialism." Wow. Brilliant. What a knockout blow.

I don't just say, "That's rather conservative" and leave it at that, I set out some of the conservative position and suggest a flaw. In other words,I try to be consrtuctive, discussion-wise.

Connections between obscene bonuses and poverty elsewhere.

1. More for one group (on a scale that I'd say NOBODY needs) must mean less for those in desperate need. After all, where do we think the money for those Wall Street bankers come from, apart from thin air.

2. It's not a Christian set-up , is it? What was that about giving to the poor, about not storing up riches in this world?

3. People with extraordinary wealth pay more at the top of each product pyramid, and at every level all the way down the pyramid, the sellers can say,"Prices have gone up on the level above, so we'll push ours up some more", the whole thing being like a reverse-domino effect. End result , more and more becomes beyond the reach of those at the bottom.

4. Is the desired end-game as we have in Brazil, say, with the rich behind walls, and the poor living in desperation on hillsides?


      Many have posted very specific points on the thread.

      They get ignored.

      What time does the dialogue start?


Auto.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 05:33 PM

May I just reiterate what Janie said in her last post
I trained under the UK Home Office as A Child Care Officer working with children who, for various reasons, suffered periods of seperation from their families. The results of an upbringing in residential establishments were as well documented as they were detrimental and even the best foster homes could not, in most insatnces, provide an adequate subsitute for even the "worst" but loving family background.
Many of my colleagues would refer to the type of forcible removal Guest G adovates as "post -natal abortion"

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 05:35 PM

Please excuse my typos in the last post and put it down to simmering anger!

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 05:52 PM

Damn right Auto.

We keep hearing from "haves" that the poor made the wrong choices, and should be left to get themselves out of the mire. They constantly bang on about how they worked for what they have, and they are not about to give up even a few cents to help their fellow man.

To me, the only ones who earned their way are the few that started out at the bottom and climbed out.

Most "haves" had a head start, being born into well to do families and eased into good education, and higher paying jobs. There's not too much personal achievement in that.

It's damn hard to climb that ladder with so many of the better off standing on your head.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:30 PM

Again, what is the relationship between a bonus and being poor?
Why does not everyone get a bonus? Why is not everyone poor?

Don; I sure as hell was not born into a "well to do family"! So, why do my offspring have nice houses. drive new cars and dress my Grandchildren well and send them to sports camps, etc.
Answer; Even less well to do families can raise their children to be responsible, hardworking individuals who realize that a 12th grade (or less) education just doesn't cut it. This a was a known fact in the 60's. We must stop making excuses for those that don't try, realizing that a few fail even when they do try.

Janie, I know all about the indians. That was done for a somewhat different reason and a pathetic reason at that. I only advocate removing those where it is determined that it is in the best interest of the kids. Of course, this may result in more numbers than you feel is required but we can discuss that later.

Emma, that is so much BS in calling it post natal abortion. Please explain the circumstances of a "worst but loving family background".

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: autolycus
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:43 PM

Don (wyziwyg)T. - thanks.

Guest,G . Someone asks for the connection between bonuses and poverty.
    So I spend time, thought and energy to suggest some specific suggestions.
    Then you ask what the connection is.
    Don proved that what I wrote is visible and on the thread.
    May I humbly recommend you to re(?)read my earlier post.

    Auto.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:46 PM

'While that one act on your part does not make you a hero in my eyes, it was an admirable act.'

I don't give a shit what you think, Guest G. Never have and never will.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 09:46 PM

auto - just go on blaming someone or something rather than addressing the problem directly. There have always been the "haves" and the "have nots" and there will always be that combination. The amount of giving to the poor is amazing, particulary from a corporate point.
But too many seem to think we should all be equal with regard to finances. That will never happen - even socialism could not accomplish that.

Guest - I am glad you don't care what I think. It is good to know we are on an even playing field with regard to feelings. Thoughts and ideas, now that is another subject and there you are hopelessly outclassed.

Good luck, Janie. I know I have given my "pound of flesh" over the years. Only I know the extent and that is all that is important to me.

I don't feel I am giving anything of value to this place, judging from some of the posts, nor do I think enough value is being given to you. A lot of unhappy, discontented and maybe in a couple cases, mal-adjusted people here. On that note, I shall leave as there is so much else to do with my time. I have come back here more than once just to be polite with regard to responding to posts.

I know, "don't let the door hit me in the aqq on the way out".
Don't worry, it won't.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 10:16 PM

G,

When children must be removed from their families, I am certainly in favor of an improved system of care that will better meet the needs of those children than the system of care we have now. However,the act of the determination of the best interests of a child is fraught with conflicting values, ambivalence, ambiguity, and conflicting needs, both within (internally) the stakeholders, and among the stakeholders.   It is rarely an unequivocable choice.

Elsewhere I have said that poverty is a complex matrix of individual and societal values, choices and priorities, and that every institution in society impinges on poverty. Certainly that encompasses the institutions, including but not limited to the family, that are involved in the care and socialization of children.

However, I have never seen, read, or experienced anything that would suggest that bad child-rearing, and failure to teach personal responsibility are anywhere near being core causes of wide-scale poverty and deprivation such as exists in our country. Factors, sure. Central to systemic poverty? No.

So,if I were Queen, I would certainly want to promote the welfare of families and children. The center of any program to help aleviate real deprivation would rest on a number of pillars at the center, including effective support and empowerment of families and communities in their efforts to raise children who can be effective in their lives and who will have the skills, values and means to be good citizens of the human race and good stewards of the Earth.

When children must be removed from their families, not only the parents have failed. We as a society have also failed.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 10:26 PM

G,

    I didn't see your last post until I just finished my own post before this one.

    Thanks for engaging in this dialogue. If we were to live in the same town, and were to talk and share our ideas over a period of time, I think we could eventually get to "Yes." I think we could find a 'middle way'. It wouldn't be exactly what either of us thought was best, but we would find a balance, and people would be helped mopre than they are now.

    All the best,

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: hesperis
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 11:23 PM

"If we decide to raise taxes and just give them the money then nothing will be accomplished. They will just be complacent to sit on their butts and wait for the check to come in each month."

I've asked every person in a women's shelter what they would need to not be in the shelter... They need housing, they need a job, they need help in transportation to that job until the first paycheck comes in, and some of them need health care or education so that they can get a job at all.

If people are sitting on their butts waiting for the check... that's not complacency, that's *despair* because the check will not allow them to pay for the things they require to get off their butts.

I left high school before graduating, because I was sick, but mostly because welfare refused to pay the transportation allowance so that I could get to school every day. They told me that a sick person could walk up and down a steep hill every day and if I wanted to take the bus outside my door to school I'd have to pay for it myself. Then they told me that if I didn't go to school I'd get cut off and wouldn't have any money for rent or food.

As I had $20 a month for food after rent, I just dropped out. You want to call that complacency?


Here's complacency. I need $35,000 in order to go to college for one year, because of health problems caused by growing up on welfare. The government loans would amount to $14,000. I'm too sick to work part-time and go to school part-time much less full-time. Most of the kids in college live with their parents and work full-time during the summer, AND work part-time during school, AND receive cash and food support from their parents.

So where am I going to find an extra $21,000 a year in order to go to school and take health treatments so that I can have a future?

Or, I need $20,000 now to take those treatments and wait for a year to be healthy enough to work.


You want to help someone who's trying? Find me $20,000.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 11:25 PM

All these whiney well-to-do-white folks seem to have the same disability as George Dubya: born with a silver foot in their mouths.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:10 AM

"The amount of giving to the poor is amazing, particulary from a corporate point. But too many seem to think we should all be equal with regard to finances"

From a corporate point of view? Exactly how much do they give to the poor? Seems to me its the corporations that have the fancy accountants and the big tax cuts. I'd like to see some facts and figures on that big lie.

As to equal finances. Nobody said it had to be equal. Most of the poor in North America would settle for half of the average household income. Thats hardly equal.

...and Don, you are absolutely right.

"Most "haves" had a head start, being born into well to do families and eased into good education, and higher paying jobs. There's not too much personal achievement in that.

It's damn hard to climb that ladder with so many of the better off standing on your head."

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:35 AM

Some folks think they did it all by themselves. Wankers that they are.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:05 AM

G posted an acknowledgement that we will always have those who need care and assistance, sometimes from the cradle to the grave.

We can talk all we want of what might help and what might not to address the roots of poverty. We can debate the balance between individual and society responsibilites, rights and choices. And it is certainly appropriate and necessary to do so in a democracy.

The current reality is that a large portion of those "who need care and assistance" in this country at the present time, are not getting the care and assistance they require just to meet basic needs. Do they just sit and suffer while we debate?

There is some common ground with some conservatives already, and I think that is apparent in G's posts. We need to implement care for those we can based on that common ground, even if that care is largely a band-aid. We can stop the bleeding of lives and souls now.

Janie
Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:08 AM

That last post was from both of me;o)

J

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: autolycus
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:54 PM

Guest G.,

   Forgive me but I did not blame anybody for anything. You are rading in something I didn't say.

   I was just sketching in a few facts for chewing and digesting.

It's partly a matter of, surely the situation some of us are pointing at is terrible, immoral (?) and we are not, as a race, helpless victims.

I won't add more, oh God yet more, until the points some of us on this side of the debate get answered. Perhaps, as someone already suggested, we should take the lack of direct responses hitherto as all the answer we require to know already where you on the other side are at.

Personally, I'm not happy with that because these matters must be debated, or we'll all go down the pan even quicker than seems likely.

Just remembered - a conservative is someone ...... but no, however tempting, I'll stick to the request for direct responses, preferably ones that are not irrelevant, based on a misreading, or sheer bile.

Here's hoping,

Auto.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 09:22 PM

I don't feel I am giving anything of value to this place

True.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 10:44 AM

To Guest; Poor 'G', you have just brought him down to your level.

(at least in your eyes) He will recover, you can't.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 11:43 AM

you too.