BS: Iman shames the U.S military?

Subject: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 04:59 PM

The BBC is reporting this harrowing and disturbing story.

19/11/05 - a roadside bomb in Iraq killed a U.S soldier.

20/11/05 - the U.S release a statement saying it also killed 15 Iraqi civilians.

Feb 06 - Following the story unfolding and proving the U.S's statement to be pure fabrication, they retracted their earlier statment and said the 15 civilians died in 'crossfire', and were 'collateral' damage.

March 06 - Following the story unfolding even more so, and again proving the U.S's second statement to be pure fabrication, they launch an official enquiry into the attrocity. They sent an apology to 11yr old Iman for killing all her family.

Iman is an 11 year old girl. On 19/11/05 she was about to go to school when the roadside bomb exploded. She stayed at home with her family as it was too dangerous to venture out. Her father went into his room to pray.

Iman's story - The U.S military burst into her home and shot her father dead, they then shot her grandmother, they then threw a grenade under her grandfather's bed and blew him up. They killed her mother next and her younger siblings. Iman was hit by shrapnel in her leg but didn't die.

The soldiers were screaming and shooting , seven women and three children were shot by them. Iman lost all her family.

An Iraqi reporter who has worked with the BBC interviewed in her home. She has the appearance of a child who has seen too much.

The photos of her home following the U.S storming in show bullet holes riddling the door where they forced entry. The walls are covered in her family's blood and the corpses of her parents, grandparents and siblings lie on the floors.

It is being rumoured that they ran amok to avenge their colleagues death in the roadside bomb. It is being rumoured that the soldiers are immune to normal feelings due to their experience in Iraq.

It is fact that they blatantly lied in their first two statements in an attempt to cover up their actions. The enquiry will try and discover exactly what their actions were and why they occurred.

If these professional paid killers are found guilty of this massacre I sincerely hope they are handed over to the Iraqi people to meet their punishment. Of course they won't be.

Any decent man or woman serving over there should take off their uniform and come home. That is if they have a shred of conscience left in their brain washed skulls.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: michaelr
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 05:34 PM

Indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 05:36 PM

. . . and a child shall lead them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 05:36 PM

Can you provide a link to this story ?

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Tig
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 07:07 PM

The Badger
GUEST shames the Mudcat by hiding its identity whilst making provocative assertions.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 07:27 PM

Fuck off and get some perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 07:34 PM

There was a pretty harrowing news story about it on Independent Television News tonight - that's the main non-BBC News in the UK.

Here is the Channel Four page about it:

"....If her story is true - and it has been disputed by the US military - human rights workers say it is the worst massacre of civilians by US troops in the country"...

And there is a link to a video of the piece, with an interview with Iman, on this page right now. I'm not sure how long it will be there, not because of censorship but because that's how news sites work. It might be archived. (You need to be using Internet Explore for the video link to work.)

The US authorities apparently refused to make any comment for the new programme. In fact it appears they declined to look at the interview given by the little girl who survived the massacre of her family and neighbours.

And here is a link to an American paper printing the story. Time magazine has coverage too - but you can't access Time online without paying them money.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: heric
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 07:41 PM

The Time article can be accessed here.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 08:09 PM

Thanks heric. That Time article is worth reading.

It's worth noting that it appears that, until Time started investigating and pushing for answers months later, the US military were quite happy to present as fact a completely fictitious version of the killings. That in itself casts doubt on their later explanations that present the killings as something other than a latter day My Lai.

It opens up the question whether in other cases which have been reported as civilians killed by bombers what in fact happened may have been something comparable to this.

In interviews with Iraqi veterans who were on that march to New Orleans which were broadcast by the BBC this week there were several references to random shootings of anyone in the vicinity of a bombing on the road as fairly common practice. (US vets on TV)

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 11:46 AM

Nine responses to this thread, which should be full of outraged postings.
The "vets on TV" thread had slightly more (I think about 14).
Most of the posts have been from UK or Canadian Mudcatters. Does this signify shame from our US brothers, or does it signify an uncaring apathetic attitude?
Again I have to ask, where are all the committed Christians, America is reckoned to be swarming with them, and here on Mudcat there are quite a few who parade their faith...Where are they!! They are the ones who should be leading the chorus of outrage and horror.

Or does their brand of Christianity mean something completely different from the one taught by Jesus ....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:03 PM

Here is another account of this, this time from Associated Press:

Residents gave new details Monday about the shootings of civilians in a western Iraqi town, where the U.S. military is investigating allegations of potential misconduct by American troops last November.

The residents said troops entered homes and shot and killed 15 members of two families, including a 3-year-old girl, after a roadside bomb killed a U.S. Marine.

The military, which announced Friday that a dozen Marines are under investigation for possible war crimes in the Nov. 19 incident, said in a statement Monday that a videotape of the aftermath of the shootings in Haditha, 140 miles northwest of Baghdad, was presented in support of the allegations...

And it goes on with more information about what survivors say happened, and on where the military authorities are now saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:19 PM

Yes McGrath ,I'm afraid this is our Vietnam, A whole generation of Americans were tainted by what happened there,and now, as many of us said before the war, we will all be stained by the actions of our Prime Minister and his sycophantic cabinet.

It is important that this disgraceful episode should not be allowed to fade from memory, or Blair be allowed to avoid his personal responsibility.
We have as much to be ashamed of the Americans.

Stupidity and apathy are no excuse...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: frogprince
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:37 PM

At least here, as in the My Lai massacre in Viet Nam, the incident has been exposed. Possibly the soldiers who were immediatedly responsible will have to pay, though I would be surprised if the penalty is proportionate to this atrocity. But I fully believe that our U.S. leaders, who are ultimately far more responsible for this and countless incidents we will never learn of, will never suffer anything more than a bad reputation in history.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:53 PM

And history, including My Lai, doesn't always make it through to a quite a lot of people.

For example, I first found that AP story I linked to via Google on a discussion forum here - and the first comment on the subsequent discussion thread was:

No American soldier is going to intentionally point a weapon at a 3 year old girl and kill her.

Clearly that guy had never heard of My Lai. Or of what happened in his own country in episodes such as Wounded Knee.

"Those who cannot remember their history are doomed to repeat it."

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 02:48 PM

Where are they [the Mudcat Christians]!! They are the ones who should be leading the chorus of outrage and horror.

They are praying I s'pose.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:05 PM

You're probably right Bruce....I believe Mr Bush and Mr Blair do the same.

"All the praying they do will never win back they're souls".

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:26 PM

The only way to get outraged responses to this thread would be if a kitten had accidentally been wounded in the carnage. Says it all really.

Subject: RE: BS: My Lai in Iraq? US soldiers accused
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:48 PM

I think the relevant factor is that the story is not getting a great deal of media attention. That focuses people on it, so the thread gets noticed. As it is, if you haven't seen stuff about it on television, or read something in the paper, the title on this thread is not likely to mean too much, so it doesn't get opened.

As for why it's not getting a great deal of media attentioin, that is another question.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:55 PM

Right you are McGrath, another question indeed. There are a few people on this Site who keep on persisting that "our boys" are so well disciplined that they are incapable of such deeds.

I do wish they would wake up to the fact that all invading armies are guilty of the most babaric acts, and so it will ever be.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:05 PM

And it's not because the killers are particularly evil. They could very likely have gone through their whole lives without hurting a fly, model citizens, good fathers, sons to be proud of.

They are acting out the part they have been given, following a script written by others who will never face any kind of penalty, even if the unlikely event that the authorities find it expedient to offer up the ones who pulled the triggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:06 PM

Just hold up a sec here!!

Because hordes of folks are not posting their outrage to this thread (to be seen by how many people?) doesn't mean the outrage is not there--or that they're not speaking out loudly where it might count for something. Consider the fact that asking various news services why they are ignoring this story and writing to one's senators and representatives might be one hell of a lot more important or effective that posting to this thread.

Other than being outraged at the apparent lack of outrage, what are you doing about it!???

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:15 PM

Why were 9/11 threads started here then? Surely all the outrage would have been better directed elsewhere? Dream on.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:28 PM

As often as not - and the 9/11 threads were a case of this - people post here on these kind of threads not as a way of registering outrage, but as a way of trying to deal with the shock felt by coming up against terrible things.

It's rather the same way as when your are together with friends in the wake of some terrible event, you want to talk about it. That's not a matter of making a public protest, it's a way of dealing with your own feelings, and trying to make sense of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: frogprince
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:41 PM

Sometimes I drop into a thread just to say "me, too"; other times I just nod and say it to myself. None of us can see how many of the others have tears in our eyes when we learn of this sort of thing. I can only take it on myself, emotionally, to a certain degree, before I have to ask myself if there is a realistic way in which I could leave this country, because my tax dollars have been paying for the bullets and bombs killing these people.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:53 PM

It is being investigated. Until the results are in, "innocent until proven guilty" applies.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 05:04 PM

It's obvious that this needs investigating. Soldiers throughout history....young, scared, intense young men under stress...have done such things. And usually the authorities would rather deny, obfuscate and hedge than publicize.

If it is true, it is ghastly and horrific, and ANYONE who participated should be brought to justice of the harshest kind. There are soldiers who endure the stresses of this insane 'war' without cracking in such atrocious ways, and we need to be rid of those who cannot.

I hope the clear, unadulterated truth comes out, even if it IS another My Lai.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 05:13 PM

"It is being investigated" - an investgation that only started when Time Magazine started sniffing around with video evidence, after months during which the army had been presenting a version of events whuich they now admit was totally fictitious.

People do terrible things when they are in a terrible situation, that is predictable, it is even understandible. But the cover-ups and the attempted cover-ups, that is another matter. It's worth remembering that the initial inquiries into My Lai determined that nothing wrong had hapened.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 05:13 PM

Agreed as far as the actual "who killed whom and why", artbrooks. Not, however, about the cover up by the US military of the story until January (as per the Times report). Until then, they insisted that the 15 had been killed by the blast - now known to be untrue.

So, no matter whatever else the inquiry brings to light, we already know that the US military lied initially.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: heric
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 05:29 PM

As happened with the white phosphorous in Fallujah. (They started out with it's only for illumination, then moved on to it was to flush out entrenched insurgents, then came video of burned civilians.)

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:02 PM

I have sat for about five minutes trying to put something into words to express the way I feel about this incident.

It is sickening and, even in the situation in which the US and UK soldiers have been placed, is inexcusable. Even more inexcusable is the cover up by the powers that be and the lack of any real effort by the media in general to air the story. The bastards in the White House and Number Ten Downing Street have a lot to answer for, not that they will ever have to do that.

This is the sort of time when I hope that there is a hell and that these people will burn in it forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:03 PM

Don..My comments on American apathy, applied not only to this thread, but to the lack of support given to the Iraq veterans on their march to New Orleans.

These men were taking a great risk to their physical wellbeing and their future employment by taking part and from the TV report broadcast here in UK they received very little support from the American public ....nobody cared or even tried to understand what the men were saying.

I believe the people of the UK to be cynical cowards politically and I thought the idealism of the Americans would be the best weapon against the powers of darkness. but I'm beginning to realise that the American public have bought the lie ,lock stock and barrel.
They appear in general to be obese, moronic, bigots who glory in their ignorance and seem to wear it as a badge of manhood.

I am depressed about the future!!

What have I done?...Not nearly enough, but I've travelled many miles to protests and demonstrations all over Scotland and written several letters newspapers local and national, at every oppertunity condemned Blair and his acolytes for the biggest political crime in my lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:03 PM

Not quite the same, McGrath. After Son My (My Lai 4), there was a command cover-up, up to (if I remember correctly) the level of the 11th Brigade commander, and the uncovering was done by an internal Army investigation . So far, there is no indication that anyone was involved in concealing the actual events significantly above the level of the Marines (not Army) involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:18 PM

Good, ake. That's what I'm advocating. Turning that outrage into action.

And thanks to the GUEST who started this thread in the first place. Had it not been for that, I would probably have never heard about it.

But it's hardly apathy if people don't speak out or take action when they haven't even heard about something. That's the fault of our so-called news media. "Liberal" news media? I don't think so! I don't know what the hell is the matter with them! They're certainly not doing the job that journalists are supposed to do.

Edward R. Murrow, where are we when we need you?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:36 PM

Time Magazine isn't exactly low profile, and it would have been on every new editor's desk - but, going by what Google News comes up with, while the story appears to have been taken up by a few US papers in a spasmodic kind of way, and written up straightforwardly enough where it has appeared, it doesn't seem to have been given very wide coverage.

The ITN report (which is probably still available on that link I gave) included a bit where they commented on the fact that there didn't seem too much attention being paid to it over there. They seemed to think that it wasn't so much a question of self-censorship dictated from above, as of an assumption that this wasn't the kind of thing readers wanted in their papers or on their screens. "Market forces" so to speak.

In a way, if ttue, that is even more worrying than indications of censorship. Censorship can be broken down, apathy can be a lot more resistant.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 08:49 PM

It's not 15 people, it's 24. Why would anyone take for granted that the other 9 weren't innocent just because that's what we've been told? Tell me another.

Just because some haven't answered doesn't mean that they're not riled about this. I'm just now posting & I heard it here 1st when it was new, further research it & can't even post the words as to how I feel. I'm just posting now with tears in my eyes & with anger so deep there's now bottom.

It true that those involved may have been innocents before Iraq. Though some still persist that "our boys are so well disciplined" & this is not what's expected of them. The military is well trained & the boys & girls that were shipped over are not the same men & women that'll come back. That is not the fault of the grunt that is the fault of the system & those that enforce it, encourage it, impose it & see that it continues. They're the ones that need to be held accountable along with those that carry out these actions. I don't think we will see any more justice done here than in the past & the shit will not roll uphill. No one will investigate & prosecute up the chain of command. Our children should go with a warranty that they must return in the same condition that they were in when they were sent, other wise DON'T SEND THEM, you go instead!

I have no doubt at this point that there's been a cover up. The admissions are coming only as the evidence gets presented & other wise would have stayed buried. They now admit that the deaths were not caused by an IED, that it was not caused by a fire fight with insurgents & I strongly doubt that the 4 surviving children killed them. The one death caused by a bleeding out from an arm woundwas the only unclean killing, all the others died from what would be considered kill shots, to the head, chest & stomach. Very professional, very quick & very clean. They were trained properly, this was not the work of anyone else but pros. You do not turn a killing machine on & off as one pleases.

This is this generations' Viet Nam, hopefully these lessons will not be forgotten but payment will be collected & the costs were already to much before it even got started & that is fault of us all except for those that can say that they did all that they could.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 09:33 PM

akenaton
I believe you folks on the other side of the pond got more on the Iraq vets march before many of us here in the US. I found out 1st from you folk over seas, not much came through our media until your media reported it. That part of the fault lies with the American mass media which means that the bottom line is that the american public is to blame for allowing that type of media to exist in the first place. Some of us do all we can, some do what they can, some can only do something when they know about it & some don't do enough & worst, some don't do anything at all but the saddest is the many that cause & reinfource those problems & those that don't know better & believe that there can't possibly be a problem. Please don't cast us all in the same light. I have more than just walked the lines since the start of Viet Nam & my days as a DD along with many other Americans. My only wish is that there were more Americans walking that walk today. I do think though that there are more people actively against the war now than 3 years ago. Maybe this curve will continue to excellerate.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 09:53 PM

Some of us (USans) just feel defeated. We didn't learn our lesson from Vietnam, and our government just does whatever it wants to anyway. The US stopped being a democracy a long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:03 PM

BTW, I didn't find out about the Iraq War Vet's march until yesterday. I learned about it here in the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: heric
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 11:11 PM

Well spoken, Mr. Finn. (Your first of 8:49)

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 12:00 AM

"The bastards in the White House and Number Ten Downing Street have a lot to answer for, not that they will ever have to do that."

That is a helpless, defeated statement. That is what has created the apathy over the years. Government corruption is so deep that Americans no longer have hope.

I cry for what has become of the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 12:53 AM

Not having hope and being apathetic are not necessarily the same thing at all. I don't have much hope, but I'm not at all apathetic. Shocked, appalled, deeply saddened, outraged, frustrated, any number of other emotions that are the opposite of apathy, but not apathy.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 12:17 PM

the twisted rational behind the atrocities being committed in Iraq appears to mirror US tactics in Vietnam.

The use of terror against the civilian population, to discourage them from harbouring or assisting the insurgents...remember the burning of vietnamese villages?

I have heard interviews with several returning Iraq veterans in which they claim that if a US convoy is targeted by insurgents, the soldiers are ordered to "shoot up" the area killing anything that moves.


These tactics have evidently been improved to the point where US troops are encouraged to enter civilian dwellings and massacre women and children.
It is extremely doubtful if these tactics will have the desired effect, as the inhabitants may conclude that the removal of one murderous tyrant to be replaced by a murderous tyranical invading army is a very poor deal.

Does the use of terror against civilians by their troops make the USA a "terrorist state" by association is the UK a "terrorist state".

What a fucking mess!!...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 01:10 PM

"YES"

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 02:02 PM

And YES AGAIN.

Subject: RE: BS: Haditha shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:02 PM

Dates that echo, for events that echo.

The date Time ran the story about what happened at Haditha, where the family of young Eman Waleed was wiped out, was March 19th - only a couple of days after the anniversary of My Lai, which happened on March 16th 1968.

And the date the alleged massacre at Haditha happened was November 20th 2005 - and it was on November 20th 1969 that the coverup on My Lai finally really broke down, when Time, Life and Newsweek all ran the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:23 PM

"It is extremely doubtful if these tactics will have the desired effect"
   There is no way in hell any good, for anybody can come of something like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:26 PM

Just a wee song by Loudon Wainwright, dedicated to all the "Mudcat Christians" who didn't respond to this thread.

Thanks to Guest for having the heart to start it...Ake

I'd rather be dreaming than living
Living's just too hard to do
It's chances not choices
Noises not voices
A day's just a thing to get through
Living's just too hard to do

I'd rather be dreaming than talking
There's nothing to hear or to say
With ears covered mouth closed
The world is opposed
Nothing gets in or away
There's nothing to hear or to say

I'd rather be dreaming than thinking
Thoughts are small comfort to me
Dreams might be pretend
But at least dreams end
And I just can't stop thinking you see
Thoughts are small comfort to me

I'd rather be dreaming than sleeping
Just sleeping you're just as well dead
In dreams I can fly
In dreams I don't die
That's why I lie here in this bed
Just sleeping you're just as well dead

I'd rather be dreaming

Lyrics > L > Loudon Wainwright Lyrics > Dreaming S

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:51 PM

Nobody owes you anything akenaton.
They certainly don't have to jump and scream when you demand that they jump and scream. Get a grip.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:12 PM

Seems like all of USA/UK are "dreaming".

I dont ask anyone to jump or scream Heric.

Perhaps the only ones to do that were the children of Haditha.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 02:16 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 10:54 AM

where are all the committed Christians, America is reckoned to be swarming with them, and here on Mudcat there are quite a few who parade their faith (Akenaton)

Couldn't you have said it a bit nicer that you are missing Bobert's contribution, Ake?

Let's assume the facts are how they are reported now then it is a crime and has to be prosecuted. However, I don't expect any harsher sentence than soldiers being thrown out of the army/navy the way I have seen former crimes treated.

Having said that I cannot start screaming murder now all of a sudden without remembering the many more times the other side in this ugly war has committed similar crimes killing civilians. To children watching their parents being killed it doesn't really matter if the murderers fight for the one side or the other. The one difference I see is that the other side plans the murders cold blooded whereas in this case it seems to be a outrageously wrong revenge action which had not been planned before.

To any person of any faith it should not matter who the murderers were to condemn murder. If each cold blooded mass murder in Iraq during say the last year had its own thread we had about one per week running.

In most of these threads, however, Ake would not call "Mudcat Christians" to contribute a condemnation. Ake, I don't believe you your attitude of righteous indignation.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 11:01 AM

Just BTW, Ake, the last two threads I recollect having discussed a crime by the other side in that war have both been without any contribution from you. You are really the right person to call upon others to comment.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 12:51 PM

There's a difference between being outraged about a crime that has been committed by opponents and at a crime committed in your own name, so to speak.

I'm sure it makes little difference to a child whom her family has been murdered by. But it should matter to us when we bear some kind of responsibility for the killing. In the case of citizens of countries who put those killers in place, that is something we need to face up to.

And even aside fromm this, if we only care about "our boys", and our own skins, we should recognise that this kind of episode makes it more likely that there will be people motivated to join the insurgents in Iraq, or carry out vengeance attacks in our own cities.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 01:59 PM

Wolfgang ...You miss the point .

This "ugly war" was started by two committed Christians, MrBush and Mr Blair, as McGrath says in OUR name.

What you call an "outrageous revenge action", when linked to the evidence of returning veterans (see above) looks much more like organised terrorism against civilians.

I am sure the orders for the use of these tactics comes from much higher up the chain of command and must ultimately rest with our born again leaders.

In these circumstances I dont think it is to much to ask that those who subscribe to the same belief system either attempt to explain the actions of our leaders ,or condemn them.

Of course every death should be condemned as you say and I apologise if I failed to respond to your threads. I have a heavy work schedule and simply dont have time to open all the threads.
However some deaths can be avoided and millions of us warned Blair and Bush that this adventure would cost thousands of lives, both our own troops and innocent civilians.
Althought I protested the war here and on the streets, I never thought that we would see the discredited terrorist tactics of Vietnam repeated in Iraq.

Let the dreamers stand up and defend their beliefs or is hypocricy a nice enough word?..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 02:09 PM

Wolfgang, do you ever stop and condsider that these troops are invaders and shouldn`t be in Iraq, have you any coneption what it is like to have terrorists[US troops] in your country riding roughshod Over the civilian population?.

Surely you shouldn

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 02:10 PM

Surely you shouldn`t have to told what an occupying army is capable off.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 06:05 PM

The stuff about Christians is maybe a bit of a red herring though - most Christians around the world were almost certainly against the war, including the ancient Christian community in Iraq, whose situation is now far worse than it was before.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Charmion
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 06:39 PM

Keep in mind that this war began only three years ago, after more than 20 years of peace. Vietnam followed close on the heels of Korea, which started only five years after VJ Day; parents in those days really understood what full-blown war meant.

Also, the British and American forces are deploying only professional soldiers and reservists, not conscripts. So middle-class British and American parents are not seeing the army pluck their young adult children willy-nilly out of their workplaces and classrooms; anyone who is going to Iraq has at some point entered voluntarily into a contract that included the possibility of going to war.

I think those facts have some impact on the media approach to reporting, and on the level of public indignation.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 06:53 PM

Very true and I totally agree. The inability of professionals to act professionally to such an extent that they murder innocent men, women and children is sickening.

I would have more respect for the troops who turned their backs on this criminal war and returned home than I will ever have for those who remain out there collecting the king's shilling.

They should be ashamed for years to come for the part they are playing.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 07:03 PM

Ake, the committed Christians--those of the more liberal variety--are saying plenty. Are you anywhere where you would actually hear them?

Bush and company, although they make a lot of noise about it, do not represent all Christians, God knows! Far from it!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Charmion
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 07:38 AM

GUEST of 6:53 pm on 4 Apr: I'm afraid you're reading way too much into my remarks above. I was referring there to the general public yawn in the face of serving soldiery who are not seen by the middle classes as "people like us". In total wars, and in countries with conscription, even the middle and upper classes are implicated and involved in the fate of rank-and-file soldiers.

By the way, I think you should break cover and assume an identity here. It's not polite to trail your coat so blatantly while wearing a cloak of invisibility.

But to your point: The proportion of professional soldiers (i.e., full-time regular troops) to reservists (including National Guard, Territorials etc.) in Iraq is probably rather low by now -- a soldier can be deployed only so often in three years, after all. The vast majority of reservists are loyal, steady soldiers who paid close attention in training and do their best on the ground; however, it is also true that the stresses of Iraq-style warfare wear down reservists faster than regulars, and in a few the training is barely skin deep.

In a big campaign such as Normandy in 1944, backed by years of training and an enormous propaganda machine fuelling total support from home, inconsistencies in individual discipline and unit effectiveness disappear in the fog of war and the eventual jubilation of victory. In Iraq, as in Vietnam and Malaya and other campaigns fought by regular armies against insurgents, every incident is picked over and examined remorselessly -- as we are seeing right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 07:41 AM

" In Iraq, as in Vietnam and Malaya and other campaigns fought by regular armies against insurgents, every incident "OF THE SIDE THAT ONE OPPOSES " is picked over and examined remorselessly -- as we are seeing right now. "

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 12:08 PM

15 dead women and children is not any incident!!

It is murder and shames any body with feelings in their hearts

These people are our troops ,acting on our orders...for fuck sake get your heads out of the sand!!

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 12:15 PM

That was my post ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 01:12 PM

This revelation is certainly a painful one, but it is one of the many things that bitter experience tells us is a certainty of war. When the war began, we knew this was coming, and not once, but many times. Why are you surprised?

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 01:34 PM

Not so much surprised as saddened and somewhat ashamed.

Not everybody knew it was coming and some probably are still in denial it happens. And others couldn't give a shit. Too busy waving their respective flags.

From the start to the present date it is a war of lies, deciept and attrocity. Commited by 'our' soldiers. I missed the part in Bush and Blairs war mongering where they told the voters that their armed forces couldnt be trusted not to slaughter innocent men, women and children.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 02:26 PM

My surprise arises from before Bush got elected and took us to war. Prior to his election I would not have believed that we would repeat our mistakes in Vietnam. Silly me.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 02:30 PM

Good point, Guest, 05 Apr 06 - 01:34 PM. We were told that we were going to war in Iraq to end the torture and the mass killings. But rather than put an end to these things, we have taken Saddam's place as the ones responsible for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 04:54 PM

I'm afraid I'm not in the least surprised, either by what appears to have happened at Haditha, or by the attempts by the authorities to lie their way out if it, denying that anything wrong happened for as long as possible, and then refusing to accept any responsibility for the actions of the people directly involved.

I'm not surprised by murder and rape and so forth in civilian life either.

But that doesn't mean that such things should be shrugged off, and treated as trivial.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 05:29 PM

This sort of action is terrorism designed to isolate the insurgents.
The civilians who die don't matter.
As I said earlier it is now commonplace for American troops to "shoot up" civilians around any I.E.D.incident, not through any sense of revenge, these are professional soldiers, but to make the civilian population think twice about allowing bombs to be placed in their streets.

Regardless of anyones opinion about the rights and wrongs of this action, it is without doubt terrorism.

We are the people involved in a wordwide "War on Terror", we practice illegal imprisonment, Rendition to other countries for the purpose of torture, we take part in illegal invasions and terrorise civilians to gain military advatage........What hypocrits we are ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 05:47 PM

Now you're talkin. I wish I had info on the credibility of the rumours that this result is premeditated. Recall the movie Full Metal Jacket. Same thing, but based on fear and confusion, not revenge or strategy.

It's easy to see it as revenge in the heat of the moment, after one's friend has just been blown up.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 06:25 PM

When the military authorities lie about an incident like this, and try to cover up the facts, that's not revenge, and it's not done in the heat of the moment.   

In normal life that kind of thing is called "being an accessory after the event", and "conspiracy to obstruct justice", and is a criminal activity.

It could be possible that the soldiers who did the killing may not in fact have been guilty of murder. There is no question at all that the military authorities subsequently and repeatedly lied about what happened.

But whatever happens to the people who pulled the triggers,if anything, you can guarantee that no one is going to be prosecuted for ordering or taking part in the cover-up. After all the people who tried to cover-up My Lai were never punished. One of them, a Major Colin Powell, was quite successful in his later career...

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 09:03 PM

There is a terrorist behind every Bush. (bumper sticker)

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 04:35 PM

or is hypocricy a nice enough word?..Ake

Ake,

hypocrisy is actually the word that pops up when reading your first contribution here and your response to me. Your carefully selective outrage has nothing to do with the victims of that crime in my reading. Reread your first post and you'll see that it nearly exclusively deals with Mudcatters and what you see as a lack of reaction. Any outrage by you about that crime can only be inferred indirectly by reading between the lines. You seize the opportunity to make a cheap shot at people with other opinions. For you it is an opportunity for propaganda, fuck the victims.

You simply don't have the time to open all threads (the last two threads about crimes from the other side were not started by me, BTW), that's fine ( I understand that for I also don't open much more than a third of the threads) but why is what you consider a good excuse for you not an equally good excuse for others?

Sorry, but your role and behaviour in this thread is far below your usual level.

McGrath, as you say from the victims point of view it doesn't matter who did the killing, but your point why it should matter to 'us' (the last paragraph) makes a lot of sense. In that sense I agree that 'we' should be more worried about crimes by the US army than by terrorists operating in Iraq.

Ard Mhacha, sorry, I know what you mean, but the way you have said it I just can't resist reading you verbatim: have you any coneption what it is like to have terrorists[US troops] in your country riding roughshod Over the civilian population?.
The US troops in my country? Yes I have a conception not by own experience but by reading reports from others and by listening to people older than I am: the occupying US army in our country was godsend in '45 for saving lots of lives and relieving us from a nightmare. In retrospect, we are very grateful to have had the US army in our country. There have been some crimes by the occupiers and there have been unnecessary civilian casualties with little consequences for guilty occupying soldiers. But all in all, we are extremely grateful to have had that experience.

Ard, I know you are speaking from another experience with an army but the German experience with occupying US and British armies (I do most definitely not include the Russian army) has been overwhelmingly good.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 05:21 PM

But without the Russian Army the Nazis would have remained in power in Germany and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 12:16 AM

I think Wolfgang is referring to the Russian army of occupation--

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:31 AM

Wolfgang...I think you understand my point well enough and all your wriggling and personal attacks bear no weight with me.

If the Christian lobby in America really believed in the principles of Christianity this war would be over in a few weeks and our troops back home.
Martin Luther King and others harnessed the power of the churches in the fight for Civil Rights; and latterly the involvement of committed Christians helped to create the political climate which hastened the end of the Vietman war.
When the Iraq veterans marched into New Orleans, where were the crowds to welcome them, where are the marches and mass protests by committed Christians of today?

Yes indeed as Mr Blair Says ....The world has changed... the Christian Churches are part of the new establishment...They have seated themselves with the "money changers".

I have always tried to be respectful to you in our discussions, although I often disagree with your point of view.
Please dont lower yourself to personal insults, when you know nothing of what I have done or said personally regarding the civilian victims in war that many here profoundly disagree with...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:48 AM

btw....Since you have raised Boberts name, I see him as a fine humanitarian first and foremost and would have great respect for him regardless of his personal religious preferrence.
Bobert is far from a "knee jerk" christian, he's a man who often wears his heart on his sleeve "For all the honest world to feel"

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 05:55 AM

Wolfgang, It goes without saying that the US, Brits and the French [why no mention of the French] armies which occupied your country after WW2, by all accounts, behaved well.

They were under strict orders to do so an example had to be shown to the Soviets, and the German population had seen enough of war to comply with whatever rules were laid down.

Viet Nam and Iraq are two entirely different matters, the behaviour of the US and it`s forces of war in both countries have turned the vast majority of the world against them.

Living in Ireland for the past 68 years, few if any would have had a bad word to say about the USA, but, at the present time it is an entirely different story, the Bush government has left a legacy of hate which seems to have reverberated around the world.

Yes Wolfgang, we in the north of Ireland who have had the misfortune to be under an occupying army have plenty of reasons to despise our occupiers, and as for those other countries that down the years have suffered death and destruction from those "disiciplined forces" of occupation, they too have suffered and also wondered, at the cruelty of man.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 06:21 AM

It goes without saying that the US, Brits and the French [why no mention of the French] armies which occupied your country after WW2, by all accounts, behaved well.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Only this week in the press we've seen horrifying pictures about some British run torture facilities in post-war Germany. The truth is nearly always a lot murkier than we get told at the time.
Revealed: victims of UK's cold war torture camp

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:52 AM

I can re-call a TV programme on German troops imprisoned after the war who were the victims of the Allied forces, these were not classified as war criminals, nevertheless, they survived on starvation rations until their release two years later.

Can anyone remember when this BBC programme was shown possibly within the last ten years.

McGrath it is worthwhile to expose this, I suppose any country capable of doing this will in the future find means of hiding the evidence, witness the US and their far-flung torture set-ups around the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:00 PM

Out of interest was Iman's ( Eman's?) interview broadcast on U.S television?

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:48 PM

There were certainly incidents during the war in Vietnam, as there were in Iraq I and have been in Iraq II. To me, and to most Vietnam veterans, it is unfortunate that individuals such as Mr. Calley never got to serve the full sentence awarded by a military court, but rather were freed by politicians. However, Calley's murder of innocent civilians did not reflect official (or unofficial) policy in Vietnam, and the incidents which have happened, or allegedly happened, in Iraq are certainly not typical of the behaviour of the US and it`s (sic) forces of war on the whole. The unit I commanded in Vietnam never harmed a noncombatant...but we did provide expended artillery ammunition canisters to the locals to use in constructing a water pipeline. Civic action was as much part of our mission as combat, as it is today in Iraq.

Remember, accusations are not convictions. Personally, I'm willing to wait before blaming possible innocent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 05:38 PM

The US military have already been caught out lying through their teeth in two reports on this incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:12 PM

McGrath of Harlow - 06 Apr 06 - 05:21 PM

"But without the Russian Army the Nazis would have remained in power in Germany and elsewhere."

Totally ludicrous contention.

MGOH go away and think about the events of 1945 and then come back and tell me what is likely to have happened to cause the end of the Third Reich.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:28 PM

I find myself thinking "Why do they lie?" since, after all when it comes out the lies make it all so much worse. How can we believe that episodes like My Lai were not a reflection of official policy when official policy was to cover up what happened, until that became impossible because of the courage of a few soldiers who refused to be silenced.

But then I look at the pictures, and read the stories, in that link I gave about how torture and murder was carried out by British soldiers in the early Cold War period - here it is again - and I realise that this had been successfully covered up for nearly 60 years.

The truth is, cover-ups succeed. How can we ever know how many atrocities get concealed for every one that comes to light? Was there really anything that unusual about what happened at Habitha? Or My Lai? We can hope there was, but how can we ever know?
.........................

Here's the latest on this from "The Marine Corps Times today:

Three officers - including an infantry battalion commander and two of his company commanders - were fired April 7 for lack of confidence, a Corps spokesman said. Relieved were Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani, who commanded the Camp Pendleton, Calif.-based 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines; India Company commander Capt. James Kimber; and Kilo Company commander Capt. Luke McConnell, said 2nd Lt. Lawton King, a spokesman for 1st Marine Division at Camp Pendleton.

Officials previously have confirmed that Chessani's battalion was under investigation for an alleged Nov. 19 rampage by the battalion's Kilo Company Marines in the Iraqi city of Haditha that left 15 civilians dead, including seven women and three children.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:31 PM

Thread drift, but "What is likely to have happened to cause the end of the Third Reich" - primarily the decision of Hitler to attack the USSR.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:38 PM

If it is thread drift it was instigated by yourself. I do not know if you are being deliberately obtuse but 1945 - try thinking about substituting Berlin and Hamburg instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Russians don't even enter into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 08:01 PM

I think the lies are perhaps becoming harder to conceal, which can only be a blessing. But doubtlessly crimes such as those to Iman will and have been hidden.

Modern day reporting, video, camera phones etc all help information be passed on. Evidence that can not be disputed is more readily available and quickly seen.

And as the attrocities come to light there will be some military bods who struggle with their conscience and find that their conscience has won. Whistle blowing is getting louder.

Every service man and woman has been conned into invading a country on a premise of lies. Eventually the truth of that will be too much for some to bear and their loyalty will not be with those who put them there.

Will those serving there now be regaling their grandchildren with stories of glory and honour, or will they be ashamed to admit their part?

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 08:20 PM

Teribus, if Hitler had never launched his misguided attack on Russia any number of alternate scenarios could have unfolded. There might not even have been a war between Germany and the USA in the 40's. There might not have been any pressing reason for America to launch atomic attacks on the Germans, and the Germans might themselves have completed their atomic project. Who knows?

The fact is, the most significant factor in defeating Germany in World War II was the vast consumption of German lives and resources on the Eastern Front. It was Hitler's mistake. He should never have attacked Russia at all. (nor should he have attacked Poland, as far as that goes...)

Therefore I think you are taking issue with McGrath only for the usual reason: You want to be "right" by making McGrath look "wrong".

Why not just get a nice hobby instead, like torturing small dogs or something, and stop trying to one-up every "liberal" on this forum?

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 10:14 PM

LH, I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that Teribus is a sucker for punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 02:04 AM

Sorry about that Little Hawk. Of course I did not realise that I had to clear any submission to this forum through you for approval before posting.

" if Hitler had never launched his misguided attack on Russia any number of alternate scenarios could have unfolded."

Almost like saying "If my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle". To anyone who read Mein Kampf it was obvious that Hitler intended to invade Russia and defeat Soviet Communism.

"There might not even have been a war between Germany and the USA in the 40's." Very true, there was no need for a war between Germany and the USA. Nazi Germany allied itself to Japan, Japan attacked the USA at Pearl Harbour, Germany declared war on the USA, they didn't have to. For a whole raft of reasons the strategy of the allies was always Germany first. Manhattan would have gone ahead irrespective and German cities would have been targetted. While the Germans were working on a bomb, Hitler did not really have any great belief in it. Scientists working on behalf of the US and UK Governments did and a very careful eye was kept on what the Germans were doing in this field, in terms of research and development, in terms of attaining that weapon, they were always between two to three years behind.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 03:56 AM

I know of a Jack Russell who may be suitable. Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 05:55 PM

Akenaton,

Provided the dog you speak of is truly representative of his breed, I believe that I would have a damn sight more respect for the dog than I would have of either yourself or Little Hawk. If it's all the same to you I'll just stick around and annoy the hell out of the pair of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 07:39 PM

Thread undrift.

From this report in the International Herald Tribune dated April 6th:

Col. W. Blake Crowe, the senior Marine commander for the region, said...insurgents had shifted their operations to towns along the Euphrates River closer to Baghdad, including Haditha... "Haditha's really the hub" of insurgent activity in western al Anbar now, he said.

It seems reasonable to speculate that actions such as the massacre in the town last November in which Iman's family were killed can't exactly have hurt recruiting for the insurgents.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 04:32 AM

Surely McGrath's post lends more credence to the action being one of terrorism.

This completely mirrors US action in Vietnam....

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 12:02 PM

Why not the French? Out of sympathy, Ard.

There's a pattern in the treatment of Germans after the war by the four occupying armies: The more crimes (or damage done) the Germans had committed in their respective countries, the worse was the treatment they gave the Germans. So from the POV of a German soldier surrendering to the US army was first choice, then a close second was the British Army and by far the last choice was the Red Army.

The French came later and they were regarded third choice, but still far better than the Red Army. The probability of survival was much higher for a German POW in the hands of one of the Western armies. If one looks at the overall statistics instead of at single cases the pattern is obvious. BTW, the same pattern was there for rapes.

If my father had not been able to cross the river Elbe surrepticiously with his unit and fool the US unit at the other bank to accept the surrender (the US units in those days were not allowed to accept a surrender by German units that had fought against the Russians) I could not post here. For in the best case my father would have come home long after the day on which I have been born.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 12:10 AM

This documentary was shown on Aussie TV ages ago - I even mentioned it in another thread, but I'm getting tired of being attacked by non-brain-functional political bully boys, so didn't waste my time following it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: heric
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:44 AM

What documentary? (I promise - no noogies.)

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:50 AM

It was in one of our current affairs TV progs. I don't keep a diary record, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 07:32 PM

Here's a related story, Report: US soldiers 'unlawfully' shot Reuters cameraman in the Chrustian Science Monitor of April 12th:

US soldiers breached their own rules of engagement when they shot two members of an Iraqi camera crew working for Reuters last year, an independent private investigation has determined. Editor & Publisher reports that the investigation, which was commissioned by Reuters, also said that the shooting was "prima facie unlawful."

But I don't imagine there'll be too much in the media about this, any more than there is about the Haditha killings. It's the wrong people getting killed, I suppose, people with names like "Walid" and "Khaled".

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 08:01 PM

The article states, btw, that three officers in Haditha have been relieved of their duties while investigations continue.

Point for pedants: The articles quote "prima facie" (unlawful) to vaguely imply that means "plainly," when in fact the term means "on its face."

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 06 - 06:30 PM

Update on US investigation.

Hope this will signal the end for Bush and Blair
Surely we in both invading nations have seen enough...Ake

Link

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 06 - 07:00 PM

They try to make these things look like isolated incidents (when they even get mentioned at all... so far, I haven't seen these latest developments mentioned in any of the US media).

One of my friends who is a Marine and a Vietnam Vet, and who served in covert ops in Laos and Cambodia, said he he couldn't tell anyone about the things he did in those countries, but he hinted that they were terrible.

I asked him if it was one of those situations where he would have to kill me if he told me. He said, "No, if I told you, I would have to kill myself".

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 27 May 06 - 08:40 PM

Oh thanks for rejuvenating this ake. I wanted to early today but I couldn't find it. The Haditha matter now has major momentum - top of front page of today's newspaper signonsandiego.com

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 May 06 - 08:51 PM

I heard it. On NPR. That's what makes NPR "liberal media" and probably a bunch of traitors to boot. They actually give you the news that, as an informed American, you really should know.

Can't have that sort of thing going on, now can we?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: heric
Date: 27 May 06 - 09:29 PM

No, Don. The San Diego paper is pretty far right. Lots of momentum on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 06 - 09:53 PM

Left or right shouldn't make any difference when it comes to dealing with apparent atrocities carried out by our own forces. And sometimes it actually does work that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: heric
Date: 27 May 06 - 09:54 PM

This can't be denied.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 06 - 10:31 PM

Thanks for the heads up about the San Diego paper, heric. Here's a link to one of the articles (it might require giving some information to get in, but I just gave fake information)...

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060527/news_1n27haditha.html

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: heric
Date: 27 May 06 - 11:06 PM

Yes, that's the one that was the lead story in today's paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 06 - 11:22 PM

I think on this particular Memorial Day, the only war dead I'm going to honor are the innocent civilians who have been killed in wars. Maybe next year I'll go back to honoring the people who fight and die.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:33 AM

Carol... you're right that these horrors are presented to us as isolated incidents committed by basically good people who have been pushed "over the edge".   Notice how even the Times article pointed out that this area was a "hotbed of terrorism", and that US troops had been killed there three months previously. A subtle way of trying to excuse shocking brutality.

What is most sad is that many do not realise that this sort of behaviour is a pattern in all wars and "terrorism" is endemic in all nations who make war.
A lot of people prefer to ignore this unpalatable side of war, I have already mentioned our Christian brothers, but now iI would like to include the Conservatives here who have been praised in other threads for their "grownupness".

"For he is an honourable man....So are they all...all honorurable men"

W S                         Ake.....

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 May 06 - 06:55 AM

This story has also been highlighted this week-end in Irish newspapers,
the ugly murdering armies of occupation will always be with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:01 AM

I know what you mean, ar mhacha. As a Macedonian from Thessaloniki, a 2300 year old city established by the glorious Philip II, I detest it every time I have to use my passport which says "Greek Republic". Ha! If only Alexander the Great was still alive, those murdering Athenians & Peloponnesians would never have taken over.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:28 AM

Thinking with their feet,- I see on to-days BBC TV that 1000 soldiers have deserted the Britsh Army, this is triple the rate, good on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: heric
Date: 28 May 06 - 12:28 PM

Strange these last two paragraphs about houses burned in the area, impliedly on the same day. They don't seem to match any of the three houses attacked by the marines who were road-bombed, as those three houses were (apparently) all being investigated the next day.


"Another point of dispute is whether some houses were destroyed by fire or by airstrikes. Some Iraqis reported that the Marines burned homes in the area of the attack, but two people familiar with the case, including Hackett, the lawyer, said warplanes conducted airstrikes, dropping 500-pound bombs on more than one house.

That is significant for any possible court-martial proceedings, because it would indicate that senior commanders, who must approve such strikes and who would also use aircraft to assess their effects, were paying attention to events in Haditha that day."

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 06 - 08:30 PM

Noone is going to get tried for murder for dropping bombs on people, no matter how many non-combatants they kill. That's not how it works.

Unless of course you're a murderous dictator who has passed his sell-by-date as a useful ally.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 May 06 - 08:57 AM

You've heard of "Friendly Fire"? (Well, the British and Canadians have...)

This was "Angry Fire"!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 06:05 PM

8 Marines charged with the Haditha massacre.

What about the slimy bastards who started this war, and encouraged a policy of "terrorism against civilians".

Time for the American people to reclaim their great country.
The ballot box has proved an escape route for the politicians, but America's youth are still dying in Iraq and nobody knows for what they die....Ake