BS: Iman shames the U.S military?

Subject: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 04:59 PM

The BBC is reporting this harrowing and disturbing story.

19/11/05 - a roadside bomb in Iraq killed a U.S soldier.

20/11/05 - the U.S release a statement saying it also killed 15 Iraqi civilians.

Feb 06 - Following the story unfolding and proving the U.S's statement to be pure fabrication, they retracted their earlier statment and said the 15 civilians died in 'crossfire', and were 'collateral' damage.

March 06 - Following the story unfolding even more so, and again proving the U.S's second statement to be pure fabrication, they launch an official enquiry into the attrocity. They sent an apology to 11yr old Iman for killing all her family.

Iman is an 11 year old girl. On 19/11/05 she was about to go to school when the roadside bomb exploded. She stayed at home with her family as it was too dangerous to venture out. Her father went into his room to pray.

Iman's story - The U.S military burst into her home and shot her father dead, they then shot her grandmother, they then threw a grenade under her grandfather's bed and blew him up. They killed her mother next and her younger siblings. Iman was hit by shrapnel in her leg but didn't die.

The soldiers were screaming and shooting , seven women and three children were shot by them. Iman lost all her family.

An Iraqi reporter who has worked with the BBC interviewed in her home. She has the appearance of a child who has seen too much.

The photos of her home following the U.S storming in show bullet holes riddling the door where they forced entry. The walls are covered in her family's blood and the corpses of her parents, grandparents and siblings lie on the floors.

It is being rumoured that they ran amok to avenge their colleagues death in the roadside bomb. It is being rumoured that the soldiers are immune to normal feelings due to their experience in Iraq.

It is fact that they blatantly lied in their first two statements in an attempt to cover up their actions. The enquiry will try and discover exactly what their actions were and why they occurred.

If these professional paid killers are found guilty of this massacre I sincerely hope they are handed over to the Iraqi people to meet their punishment. Of course they won't be.

Any decent man or woman serving over there should take off their uniform and come home. That is if they have a shred of conscience left in their brain washed skulls.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: michaelr
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 05:34 PM

Indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 05:36 PM

. . . and a child shall lead them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 05:36 PM

Can you provide a link to this story ?

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Tig
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 07:07 PM

The Badger
GUEST shames the Mudcat by hiding its identity whilst making provocative assertions.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 07:27 PM

Fuck off and get some perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 07:34 PM

There was a pretty harrowing news story about it on Independent Television News tonight - that's the main non-BBC News in the UK.

Here is the Channel Four page about it:

"....If her story is true - and it has been disputed by the US military - human rights workers say it is the worst massacre of civilians by US troops in the country"...

And there is a link to a video of the piece, with an interview with Iman, on this page right now. I'm not sure how long it will be there, not because of censorship but because that's how news sites work. It might be archived. (You need to be using Internet Explore for the video link to work.)

The US authorities apparently refused to make any comment for the new programme. In fact it appears they declined to look at the interview given by the little girl who survived the massacre of her family and neighbours.

And here is a link to an American paper printing the story. Time magazine has coverage too - but you can't access Time online without paying them money.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: heric
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 07:41 PM

The Time article can be accessed here.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 08:09 PM

Thanks heric. That Time article is worth reading.

It's worth noting that it appears that, until Time started investigating and pushing for answers months later, the US military were quite happy to present as fact a completely fictitious version of the killings. That in itself casts doubt on their later explanations that present the killings as something other than a latter day My Lai.

It opens up the question whether in other cases which have been reported as civilians killed by bombers what in fact happened may have been something comparable to this.

In interviews with Iraqi veterans who were on that march to New Orleans which were broadcast by the BBC this week there were several references to random shootings of anyone in the vicinity of a bombing on the road as fairly common practice. (US vets on TV)

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 11:46 AM

Nine responses to this thread, which should be full of outraged postings.
The "vets on TV" thread had slightly more (I think about 14).
Most of the posts have been from UK or Canadian Mudcatters. Does this signify shame from our US brothers, or does it signify an uncaring apathetic attitude?
Again I have to ask, where are all the committed Christians, America is reckoned to be swarming with them, and here on Mudcat there are quite a few who parade their faith...Where are they!! They are the ones who should be leading the chorus of outrage and horror.

Or does their brand of Christianity mean something completely different from the one taught by Jesus ....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:03 PM

Here is another account of this, this time from Associated Press:

Residents gave new details Monday about the shootings of civilians in a western Iraqi town, where the U.S. military is investigating allegations of potential misconduct by American troops last November.

The residents said troops entered homes and shot and killed 15 members of two families, including a 3-year-old girl, after a roadside bomb killed a U.S. Marine.

The military, which announced Friday that a dozen Marines are under investigation for possible war crimes in the Nov. 19 incident, said in a statement Monday that a videotape of the aftermath of the shootings in Haditha, 140 miles northwest of Baghdad, was presented in support of the allegations...

And it goes on with more information about what survivors say happened, and on where the military authorities are now saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:19 PM

Yes McGrath ,I'm afraid this is our Vietnam, A whole generation of Americans were tainted by what happened there,and now, as many of us said before the war, we will all be stained by the actions of our Prime Minister and his sycophantic cabinet.

It is important that this disgraceful episode should not be allowed to fade from memory, or Blair be allowed to avoid his personal responsibility.
We have as much to be ashamed of the Americans.

Stupidity and apathy are no excuse...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: frogprince
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:37 PM

At least here, as in the My Lai massacre in Viet Nam, the incident has been exposed. Possibly the soldiers who were immediatedly responsible will have to pay, though I would be surprised if the penalty is proportionate to this atrocity. But I fully believe that our U.S. leaders, who are ultimately far more responsible for this and countless incidents we will never learn of, will never suffer anything more than a bad reputation in history.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:53 PM

And history, including My Lai, doesn't always make it through to a quite a lot of people.

For example, I first found that AP story I linked to via Google on a discussion forum here - and the first comment on the subsequent discussion thread was:

No American soldier is going to intentionally point a weapon at a 3 year old girl and kill her.

Clearly that guy had never heard of My Lai. Or of what happened in his own country in episodes such as Wounded Knee.

"Those who cannot remember their history are doomed to repeat it."

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 02:48 PM

Where are they [the Mudcat Christians]!! They are the ones who should be leading the chorus of outrage and horror.

They are praying I s'pose.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:05 PM

You're probably right Bruce....I believe Mr Bush and Mr Blair do the same.

"All the praying they do will never win back they're souls".

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:26 PM

The only way to get outraged responses to this thread would be if a kitten had accidentally been wounded in the carnage. Says it all really.

Subject: RE: BS: My Lai in Iraq? US soldiers accused
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:48 PM

I think the relevant factor is that the story is not getting a great deal of media attention. That focuses people on it, so the thread gets noticed. As it is, if you haven't seen stuff about it on television, or read something in the paper, the title on this thread is not likely to mean too much, so it doesn't get opened.

As for why it's not getting a great deal of media attentioin, that is another question.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:55 PM

Right you are McGrath, another question indeed. There are a few people on this Site who keep on persisting that "our boys" are so well disciplined that they are incapable of such deeds.

I do wish they would wake up to the fact that all invading armies are guilty of the most babaric acts, and so it will ever be.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:05 PM

And it's not because the killers are particularly evil. They could very likely have gone through their whole lives without hurting a fly, model citizens, good fathers, sons to be proud of.

They are acting out the part they have been given, following a script written by others who will never face any kind of penalty, even if the unlikely event that the authorities find it expedient to offer up the ones who pulled the triggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:06 PM

Just hold up a sec here!!

Because hordes of folks are not posting their outrage to this thread (to be seen by how many people?) doesn't mean the outrage is not there--or that they're not speaking out loudly where it might count for something. Consider the fact that asking various news services why they are ignoring this story and writing to one's senators and representatives might be one hell of a lot more important or effective that posting to this thread.

Other than being outraged at the apparent lack of outrage, what are you doing about it!???

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:15 PM

Why were 9/11 threads started here then? Surely all the outrage would have been better directed elsewhere? Dream on.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:28 PM

As often as not - and the 9/11 threads were a case of this - people post here on these kind of threads not as a way of registering outrage, but as a way of trying to deal with the shock felt by coming up against terrible things.

It's rather the same way as when your are together with friends in the wake of some terrible event, you want to talk about it. That's not a matter of making a public protest, it's a way of dealing with your own feelings, and trying to make sense of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: frogprince
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:41 PM

Sometimes I drop into a thread just to say "me, too"; other times I just nod and say it to myself. None of us can see how many of the others have tears in our eyes when we learn of this sort of thing. I can only take it on myself, emotionally, to a certain degree, before I have to ask myself if there is a realistic way in which I could leave this country, because my tax dollars have been paying for the bullets and bombs killing these people.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:53 PM

It is being investigated. Until the results are in, "innocent until proven guilty" applies.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 05:04 PM

It's obvious that this needs investigating. Soldiers throughout history....young, scared, intense young men under stress...have done such things. And usually the authorities would rather deny, obfuscate and hedge than publicize.

If it is true, it is ghastly and horrific, and ANYONE who participated should be brought to justice of the harshest kind. There are soldiers who endure the stresses of this insane 'war' without cracking in such atrocious ways, and we need to be rid of those who cannot.

I hope the clear, unadulterated truth comes out, even if it IS another My Lai.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 05:13 PM

"It is being investigated" - an investgation that only started when Time Magazine started sniffing around with video evidence, after months during which the army had been presenting a version of events whuich they now admit was totally fictitious.

People do terrible things when they are in a terrible situation, that is predictable, it is even understandible. But the cover-ups and the attempted cover-ups, that is another matter. It's worth remembering that the initial inquiries into My Lai determined that nothing wrong had hapened.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 05:13 PM

Agreed as far as the actual "who killed whom and why", artbrooks. Not, however, about the cover up by the US military of the story until January (as per the Times report). Until then, they insisted that the 15 had been killed by the blast - now known to be untrue.

So, no matter whatever else the inquiry brings to light, we already know that the US military lied initially.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: heric
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 05:29 PM

As happened with the white phosphorous in Fallujah. (They started out with it's only for illumination, then moved on to it was to flush out entrenched insurgents, then came video of burned civilians.)

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:02 PM

I have sat for about five minutes trying to put something into words to express the way I feel about this incident.

It is sickening and, even in the situation in which the US and UK soldiers have been placed, is inexcusable. Even more inexcusable is the cover up by the powers that be and the lack of any real effort by the media in general to air the story. The bastards in the White House and Number Ten Downing Street have a lot to answer for, not that they will ever have to do that.

This is the sort of time when I hope that there is a hell and that these people will burn in it forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:03 PM

Don..My comments on American apathy, applied not only to this thread, but to the lack of support given to the Iraq veterans on their march to New Orleans.

These men were taking a great risk to their physical wellbeing and their future employment by taking part and from the TV report broadcast here in UK they received very little support from the American public ....nobody cared or even tried to understand what the men were saying.

I believe the people of the UK to be cynical cowards politically and I thought the idealism of the Americans would be the best weapon against the powers of darkness. but I'm beginning to realise that the American public have bought the lie ,lock stock and barrel.
They appear in general to be obese, moronic, bigots who glory in their ignorance and seem to wear it as a badge of manhood.

I am depressed about the future!!

What have I done?...Not nearly enough, but I've travelled many miles to protests and demonstrations all over Scotland and written several letters newspapers local and national, at every oppertunity condemned Blair and his acolytes for the biggest political crime in my lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:03 PM

Not quite the same, McGrath. After Son My (My Lai 4), there was a command cover-up, up to (if I remember correctly) the level of the 11th Brigade commander, and the uncovering was done by an internal Army investigation . So far, there is no indication that anyone was involved in concealing the actual events significantly above the level of the Marines (not Army) involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:18 PM

Good, ake. That's what I'm advocating. Turning that outrage into action.

And thanks to the GUEST who started this thread in the first place. Had it not been for that, I would probably have never heard about it.

But it's hardly apathy if people don't speak out or take action when they haven't even heard about something. That's the fault of our so-called news media. "Liberal" news media? I don't think so! I don't know what the hell is the matter with them! They're certainly not doing the job that journalists are supposed to do.

Edward R. Murrow, where are we when we need you?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:36 PM

Time Magazine isn't exactly low profile, and it would have been on every new editor's desk - but, going by what Google News comes up with, while the story appears to have been taken up by a few US papers in a spasmodic kind of way, and written up straightforwardly enough where it has appeared, it doesn't seem to have been given very wide coverage.

The ITN report (which is probably still available on that link I gave) included a bit where they commented on the fact that there didn't seem too much attention being paid to it over there. They seemed to think that it wasn't so much a question of self-censorship dictated from above, as of an assumption that this wasn't the kind of thing readers wanted in their papers or on their screens. "Market forces" so to speak.

In a way, if ttue, that is even more worrying than indications of censorship. Censorship can be broken down, apathy can be a lot more resistant.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 08:49 PM

It's not 15 people, it's 24. Why would anyone take for granted that the other 9 weren't innocent just because that's what we've been told? Tell me another.

Just because some haven't answered doesn't mean that they're not riled about this. I'm just now posting & I heard it here 1st when it was new, further research it & can't even post the words as to how I feel. I'm just posting now with tears in my eyes & with anger so deep there's now bottom.

It true that those involved may have been innocents before Iraq. Though some still persist that "our boys are so well disciplined" & this is not what's expected of them. The military is well trained & the boys & girls that were shipped over are not the same men & women that'll come back. That is not the fault of the grunt that is the fault of the system & those that enforce it, encourage it, impose it & see that it continues. They're the ones that need to be held accountable along with those that carry out these actions. I don't think we will see any more justice done here than in the past & the shit will not roll uphill. No one will investigate & prosecute up the chain of command. Our children should go with a warranty that they must return in the same condition that they were in when they were sent, other wise DON'T SEND THEM, you go instead!

I have no doubt at this point that there's been a cover up. The admissions are coming only as the evidence gets presented & other wise would have stayed buried. They now admit that the deaths were not caused by an IED, that it was not caused by a fire fight with insurgents & I strongly doubt that the 4 surviving children killed them. The one death caused by a bleeding out from an arm woundwas the only unclean killing, all the others died from what would be considered kill shots, to the head, chest & stomach. Very professional, very quick & very clean. They were trained properly, this was not the work of anyone else but pros. You do not turn a killing machine on & off as one pleases.

This is this generations' Viet Nam, hopefully these lessons will not be forgotten but payment will be collected & the costs were already to much before it even got started & that is fault of us all except for those that can say that they did all that they could.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 09:33 PM

akenaton
I believe you folks on the other side of the pond got more on the Iraq vets march before many of us here in the US. I found out 1st from you folk over seas, not much came through our media until your media reported it. That part of the fault lies with the American mass media which means that the bottom line is that the american public is to blame for allowing that type of media to exist in the first place. Some of us do all we can, some do what they can, some can only do something when they know about it & some don't do enough & worst, some don't do anything at all but the saddest is the many that cause & reinfource those problems & those that don't know better & believe that there can't possibly be a problem. Please don't cast us all in the same light. I have more than just walked the lines since the start of Viet Nam & my days as a DD along with many other Americans. My only wish is that there were more Americans walking that walk today. I do think though that there are more people actively against the war now than 3 years ago. Maybe this curve will continue to excellerate.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 09:53 PM

Some of us (USans) just feel defeated. We didn't learn our lesson from Vietnam, and our government just does whatever it wants to anyway. The US stopped being a democracy a long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:03 PM

BTW, I didn't find out about the Iraq War Vet's march until yesterday. I learned about it here in the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: heric
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 11:11 PM

Well spoken, Mr. Finn. (Your first of 8:49)

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 12:00 AM

"The bastards in the White House and Number Ten Downing Street have a lot to answer for, not that they will ever have to do that."

That is a helpless, defeated statement. That is what has created the apathy over the years. Government corruption is so deep that Americans no longer have hope.

I cry for what has become of the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 12:53 AM

Not having hope and being apathetic are not necessarily the same thing at all. I don't have much hope, but I'm not at all apathetic. Shocked, appalled, deeply saddened, outraged, frustrated, any number of other emotions that are the opposite of apathy, but not apathy.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 12:17 PM

the twisted rational behind the atrocities being committed in Iraq appears to mirror US tactics in Vietnam.

The use of terror against the civilian population, to discourage them from harbouring or assisting the insurgents...remember the burning of vietnamese villages?

I have heard interviews with several returning Iraq veterans in which they claim that if a US convoy is targeted by insurgents, the soldiers are ordered to "shoot up" the area killing anything that moves.


These tactics have evidently been improved to the point where US troops are encouraged to enter civilian dwellings and massacre women and children.
It is extremely doubtful if these tactics will have the desired effect, as the inhabitants may conclude that the removal of one murderous tyrant to be replaced by a murderous tyranical invading army is a very poor deal.

Does the use of terror against civilians by their troops make the USA a "terrorist state" by association is the UK a "terrorist state".

What a fucking mess!!...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 01:10 PM

"YES"

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 02:02 PM

And YES AGAIN.

Subject: RE: BS: Haditha shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:02 PM

Dates that echo, for events that echo.

The date Time ran the story about what happened at Haditha, where the family of young Eman Waleed was wiped out, was March 19th - only a couple of days after the anniversary of My Lai, which happened on March 16th 1968.

And the date the alleged massacre at Haditha happened was November 20th 2005 - and it was on November 20th 1969 that the coverup on My Lai finally really broke down, when Time, Life and Newsweek all ran the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:23 PM

"It is extremely doubtful if these tactics will have the desired effect"
   There is no way in hell any good, for anybody can come of something like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:26 PM

Just a wee song by Loudon Wainwright, dedicated to all the "Mudcat Christians" who didn't respond to this thread.

Thanks to Guest for having the heart to start it...Ake

I'd rather be dreaming than living
Living's just too hard to do
It's chances not choices
Noises not voices
A day's just a thing to get through
Living's just too hard to do

I'd rather be dreaming than talking
There's nothing to hear or to say
With ears covered mouth closed
The world is opposed
Nothing gets in or away
There's nothing to hear or to say

I'd rather be dreaming than thinking
Thoughts are small comfort to me
Dreams might be pretend
But at least dreams end
And I just can't stop thinking you see
Thoughts are small comfort to me

I'd rather be dreaming than sleeping
Just sleeping you're just as well dead
In dreams I can fly
In dreams I don't die
That's why I lie here in this bed
Just sleeping you're just as well dead

I'd rather be dreaming

Lyrics > L > Loudon Wainwright Lyrics > Dreaming S

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:51 PM

Nobody owes you anything akenaton.
They certainly don't have to jump and scream when you demand that they jump and scream. Get a grip.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:12 PM

Seems like all of USA/UK are "dreaming".

I dont ask anyone to jump or scream Heric.

Perhaps the only ones to do that were the children of Haditha.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 02:16 PM