BS: Iman shames the U.S military?

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 05:29 PM

This sort of action is terrorism designed to isolate the insurgents.
The civilians who die don't matter.
As I said earlier it is now commonplace for American troops to "shoot up" civilians around any I.E.D.incident, not through any sense of revenge, these are professional soldiers, but to make the civilian population think twice about allowing bombs to be placed in their streets.

Regardless of anyones opinion about the rights and wrongs of this action, it is without doubt terrorism.

We are the people involved in a wordwide "War on Terror", we practice illegal imprisonment, Rendition to other countries for the purpose of torture, we take part in illegal invasions and terrorise civilians to gain military advatage........What hypocrits we are ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 04:54 PM

I'm afraid I'm not in the least surprised, either by what appears to have happened at Haditha, or by the attempts by the authorities to lie their way out if it, denying that anything wrong happened for as long as possible, and then refusing to accept any responsibility for the actions of the people directly involved.

I'm not surprised by murder and rape and so forth in civilian life either.

But that doesn't mean that such things should be shrugged off, and treated as trivial.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 02:30 PM

Good point, Guest, 05 Apr 06 - 01:34 PM. We were told that we were going to war in Iraq to end the torture and the mass killings. But rather than put an end to these things, we have taken Saddam's place as the ones responsible for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 02:26 PM

My surprise arises from before Bush got elected and took us to war. Prior to his election I would not have believed that we would repeat our mistakes in Vietnam. Silly me.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 01:34 PM

Not so much surprised as saddened and somewhat ashamed.

Not everybody knew it was coming and some probably are still in denial it happens. And others couldn't give a shit. Too busy waving their respective flags.

From the start to the present date it is a war of lies, deciept and attrocity. Commited by 'our' soldiers. I missed the part in Bush and Blairs war mongering where they told the voters that their armed forces couldnt be trusted not to slaughter innocent men, women and children.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 01:12 PM

This revelation is certainly a painful one, but it is one of the many things that bitter experience tells us is a certainty of war. When the war began, we knew this was coming, and not once, but many times. Why are you surprised?

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 12:15 PM

That was my post ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 12:08 PM

15 dead women and children is not any incident!!

It is murder and shames any body with feelings in their hearts

These people are our troops ,acting on our orders...for fuck sake get your heads out of the sand!!

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 07:41 AM

" In Iraq, as in Vietnam and Malaya and other campaigns fought by regular armies against insurgents, every incident "OF THE SIDE THAT ONE OPPOSES " is picked over and examined remorselessly -- as we are seeing right now. "

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Charmion
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 07:38 AM

GUEST of 6:53 pm on 4 Apr: I'm afraid you're reading way too much into my remarks above. I was referring there to the general public yawn in the face of serving soldiery who are not seen by the middle classes as "people like us". In total wars, and in countries with conscription, even the middle and upper classes are implicated and involved in the fate of rank-and-file soldiers.

By the way, I think you should break cover and assume an identity here. It's not polite to trail your coat so blatantly while wearing a cloak of invisibility.

But to your point: The proportion of professional soldiers (i.e., full-time regular troops) to reservists (including National Guard, Territorials etc.) in Iraq is probably rather low by now -- a soldier can be deployed only so often in three years, after all. The vast majority of reservists are loyal, steady soldiers who paid close attention in training and do their best on the ground; however, it is also true that the stresses of Iraq-style warfare wear down reservists faster than regulars, and in a few the training is barely skin deep.

In a big campaign such as Normandy in 1944, backed by years of training and an enormous propaganda machine fuelling total support from home, inconsistencies in individual discipline and unit effectiveness disappear in the fog of war and the eventual jubilation of victory. In Iraq, as in Vietnam and Malaya and other campaigns fought by regular armies against insurgents, every incident is picked over and examined remorselessly -- as we are seeing right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 07:03 PM

Ake, the committed Christians--those of the more liberal variety--are saying plenty. Are you anywhere where you would actually hear them?

Bush and company, although they make a lot of noise about it, do not represent all Christians, God knows! Far from it!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 06:53 PM

Very true and I totally agree. The inability of professionals to act professionally to such an extent that they murder innocent men, women and children is sickening.

I would have more respect for the troops who turned their backs on this criminal war and returned home than I will ever have for those who remain out there collecting the king's shilling.

They should be ashamed for years to come for the part they are playing.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Charmion
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 06:39 PM

Keep in mind that this war began only three years ago, after more than 20 years of peace. Vietnam followed close on the heels of Korea, which started only five years after VJ Day; parents in those days really understood what full-blown war meant.

Also, the British and American forces are deploying only professional soldiers and reservists, not conscripts. So middle-class British and American parents are not seeing the army pluck their young adult children willy-nilly out of their workplaces and classrooms; anyone who is going to Iraq has at some point entered voluntarily into a contract that included the possibility of going to war.

I think those facts have some impact on the media approach to reporting, and on the level of public indignation.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 06:05 PM

The stuff about Christians is maybe a bit of a red herring though - most Christians around the world were almost certainly against the war, including the ancient Christian community in Iraq, whose situation is now far worse than it was before.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 02:10 PM

Surely you shouldn`t have to told what an occupying army is capable off.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 02:09 PM

Wolfgang, do you ever stop and condsider that these troops are invaders and shouldn`t be in Iraq, have you any coneption what it is like to have terrorists[US troops] in your country riding roughshod Over the civilian population?.

Surely you shouldn

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 01:59 PM

Wolfgang ...You miss the point .

This "ugly war" was started by two committed Christians, MrBush and Mr Blair, as McGrath says in OUR name.

What you call an "outrageous revenge action", when linked to the evidence of returning veterans (see above) looks much more like organised terrorism against civilians.

I am sure the orders for the use of these tactics comes from much higher up the chain of command and must ultimately rest with our born again leaders.

In these circumstances I dont think it is to much to ask that those who subscribe to the same belief system either attempt to explain the actions of our leaders ,or condemn them.

Of course every death should be condemned as you say and I apologise if I failed to respond to your threads. I have a heavy work schedule and simply dont have time to open all the threads.
However some deaths can be avoided and millions of us warned Blair and Bush that this adventure would cost thousands of lives, both our own troops and innocent civilians.
Althought I protested the war here and on the streets, I never thought that we would see the discredited terrorist tactics of Vietnam repeated in Iraq.

Let the dreamers stand up and defend their beliefs or is hypocricy a nice enough word?..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 12:51 PM

There's a difference between being outraged about a crime that has been committed by opponents and at a crime committed in your own name, so to speak.

I'm sure it makes little difference to a child whom her family has been murdered by. But it should matter to us when we bear some kind of responsibility for the killing. In the case of citizens of countries who put those killers in place, that is something we need to face up to.

And even aside fromm this, if we only care about "our boys", and our own skins, we should recognise that this kind of episode makes it more likely that there will be people motivated to join the insurgents in Iraq, or carry out vengeance attacks in our own cities.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 11:01 AM

Just BTW, Ake, the last two threads I recollect having discussed a crime by the other side in that war have both been without any contribution from you. You are really the right person to call upon others to comment.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 10:54 AM

where are all the committed Christians, America is reckoned to be swarming with them, and here on Mudcat there are quite a few who parade their faith (Akenaton)

Couldn't you have said it a bit nicer that you are missing Bobert's contribution, Ake?

Let's assume the facts are how they are reported now then it is a crime and has to be prosecuted. However, I don't expect any harsher sentence than soldiers being thrown out of the army/navy the way I have seen former crimes treated.

Having said that I cannot start screaming murder now all of a sudden without remembering the many more times the other side in this ugly war has committed similar crimes killing civilians. To children watching their parents being killed it doesn't really matter if the murderers fight for the one side or the other. The one difference I see is that the other side plans the murders cold blooded whereas in this case it seems to be a outrageously wrong revenge action which had not been planned before.

To any person of any faith it should not matter who the murderers were to condemn murder. If each cold blooded mass murder in Iraq during say the last year had its own thread we had about one per week running.

In most of these threads, however, Ake would not call "Mudcat Christians" to contribute a condemnation. Ake, I don't believe you your attitude of righteous indignation.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 02:16 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:12 PM

Seems like all of USA/UK are "dreaming".

I dont ask anyone to jump or scream Heric.

Perhaps the only ones to do that were the children of Haditha.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:51 PM

Nobody owes you anything akenaton.
They certainly don't have to jump and scream when you demand that they jump and scream. Get a grip.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:26 PM

Just a wee song by Loudon Wainwright, dedicated to all the "Mudcat Christians" who didn't respond to this thread.

Thanks to Guest for having the heart to start it...Ake

I'd rather be dreaming than living
Living's just too hard to do
It's chances not choices
Noises not voices
A day's just a thing to get through
Living's just too hard to do

I'd rather be dreaming than talking
There's nothing to hear or to say
With ears covered mouth closed
The world is opposed
Nothing gets in or away
There's nothing to hear or to say

I'd rather be dreaming than thinking
Thoughts are small comfort to me
Dreams might be pretend
But at least dreams end
And I just can't stop thinking you see
Thoughts are small comfort to me

I'd rather be dreaming than sleeping
Just sleeping you're just as well dead
In dreams I can fly
In dreams I don't die
That's why I lie here in this bed
Just sleeping you're just as well dead

I'd rather be dreaming

Lyrics > L > Loudon Wainwright Lyrics > Dreaming S

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:23 PM

"It is extremely doubtful if these tactics will have the desired effect"
   There is no way in hell any good, for anybody can come of something like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Haditha shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:02 PM

Dates that echo, for events that echo.

The date Time ran the story about what happened at Haditha, where the family of young Eman Waleed was wiped out, was March 19th - only a couple of days after the anniversary of My Lai, which happened on March 16th 1968.

And the date the alleged massacre at Haditha happened was November 20th 2005 - and it was on November 20th 1969 that the coverup on My Lai finally really broke down, when Time, Life and Newsweek all ran the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 02:02 PM

And YES AGAIN.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 01:10 PM

"YES"

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 12:17 PM

the twisted rational behind the atrocities being committed in Iraq appears to mirror US tactics in Vietnam.

The use of terror against the civilian population, to discourage them from harbouring or assisting the insurgents...remember the burning of vietnamese villages?

I have heard interviews with several returning Iraq veterans in which they claim that if a US convoy is targeted by insurgents, the soldiers are ordered to "shoot up" the area killing anything that moves.


These tactics have evidently been improved to the point where US troops are encouraged to enter civilian dwellings and massacre women and children.
It is extremely doubtful if these tactics will have the desired effect, as the inhabitants may conclude that the removal of one murderous tyrant to be replaced by a murderous tyranical invading army is a very poor deal.

Does the use of terror against civilians by their troops make the USA a "terrorist state" by association is the UK a "terrorist state".

What a fucking mess!!...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 12:53 AM

Not having hope and being apathetic are not necessarily the same thing at all. I don't have much hope, but I'm not at all apathetic. Shocked, appalled, deeply saddened, outraged, frustrated, any number of other emotions that are the opposite of apathy, but not apathy.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 12:00 AM

"The bastards in the White House and Number Ten Downing Street have a lot to answer for, not that they will ever have to do that."

That is a helpless, defeated statement. That is what has created the apathy over the years. Government corruption is so deep that Americans no longer have hope.

I cry for what has become of the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: heric
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 11:11 PM

Well spoken, Mr. Finn. (Your first of 8:49)

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:03 PM

BTW, I didn't find out about the Iraq War Vet's march until yesterday. I learned about it here in the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 09:53 PM

Some of us (USans) just feel defeated. We didn't learn our lesson from Vietnam, and our government just does whatever it wants to anyway. The US stopped being a democracy a long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 09:33 PM

akenaton
I believe you folks on the other side of the pond got more on the Iraq vets march before many of us here in the US. I found out 1st from you folk over seas, not much came through our media until your media reported it. That part of the fault lies with the American mass media which means that the bottom line is that the american public is to blame for allowing that type of media to exist in the first place. Some of us do all we can, some do what they can, some can only do something when they know about it & some don't do enough & worst, some don't do anything at all but the saddest is the many that cause & reinfource those problems & those that don't know better & believe that there can't possibly be a problem. Please don't cast us all in the same light. I have more than just walked the lines since the start of Viet Nam & my days as a DD along with many other Americans. My only wish is that there were more Americans walking that walk today. I do think though that there are more people actively against the war now than 3 years ago. Maybe this curve will continue to excellerate.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 08:49 PM

It's not 15 people, it's 24. Why would anyone take for granted that the other 9 weren't innocent just because that's what we've been told? Tell me another.

Just because some haven't answered doesn't mean that they're not riled about this. I'm just now posting & I heard it here 1st when it was new, further research it & can't even post the words as to how I feel. I'm just posting now with tears in my eyes & with anger so deep there's now bottom.

It true that those involved may have been innocents before Iraq. Though some still persist that "our boys are so well disciplined" & this is not what's expected of them. The military is well trained & the boys & girls that were shipped over are not the same men & women that'll come back. That is not the fault of the grunt that is the fault of the system & those that enforce it, encourage it, impose it & see that it continues. They're the ones that need to be held accountable along with those that carry out these actions. I don't think we will see any more justice done here than in the past & the shit will not roll uphill. No one will investigate & prosecute up the chain of command. Our children should go with a warranty that they must return in the same condition that they were in when they were sent, other wise DON'T SEND THEM, you go instead!

I have no doubt at this point that there's been a cover up. The admissions are coming only as the evidence gets presented & other wise would have stayed buried. They now admit that the deaths were not caused by an IED, that it was not caused by a fire fight with insurgents & I strongly doubt that the 4 surviving children killed them. The one death caused by a bleeding out from an arm woundwas the only unclean killing, all the others died from what would be considered kill shots, to the head, chest & stomach. Very professional, very quick & very clean. They were trained properly, this was not the work of anyone else but pros. You do not turn a killing machine on & off as one pleases.

This is this generations' Viet Nam, hopefully these lessons will not be forgotten but payment will be collected & the costs were already to much before it even got started & that is fault of us all except for those that can say that they did all that they could.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:36 PM

Time Magazine isn't exactly low profile, and it would have been on every new editor's desk - but, going by what Google News comes up with, while the story appears to have been taken up by a few US papers in a spasmodic kind of way, and written up straightforwardly enough where it has appeared, it doesn't seem to have been given very wide coverage.

The ITN report (which is probably still available on that link I gave) included a bit where they commented on the fact that there didn't seem too much attention being paid to it over there. They seemed to think that it wasn't so much a question of self-censorship dictated from above, as of an assumption that this wasn't the kind of thing readers wanted in their papers or on their screens. "Market forces" so to speak.

In a way, if ttue, that is even more worrying than indications of censorship. Censorship can be broken down, apathy can be a lot more resistant.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:18 PM

Good, ake. That's what I'm advocating. Turning that outrage into action.

And thanks to the GUEST who started this thread in the first place. Had it not been for that, I would probably have never heard about it.

But it's hardly apathy if people don't speak out or take action when they haven't even heard about something. That's the fault of our so-called news media. "Liberal" news media? I don't think so! I don't know what the hell is the matter with them! They're certainly not doing the job that journalists are supposed to do.

Edward R. Murrow, where are we when we need you?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:03 PM

Not quite the same, McGrath. After Son My (My Lai 4), there was a command cover-up, up to (if I remember correctly) the level of the 11th Brigade commander, and the uncovering was done by an internal Army investigation . So far, there is no indication that anyone was involved in concealing the actual events significantly above the level of the Marines (not Army) involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:03 PM

Don..My comments on American apathy, applied not only to this thread, but to the lack of support given to the Iraq veterans on their march to New Orleans.

These men were taking a great risk to their physical wellbeing and their future employment by taking part and from the TV report broadcast here in UK they received very little support from the American public ....nobody cared or even tried to understand what the men were saying.

I believe the people of the UK to be cynical cowards politically and I thought the idealism of the Americans would be the best weapon against the powers of darkness. but I'm beginning to realise that the American public have bought the lie ,lock stock and barrel.
They appear in general to be obese, moronic, bigots who glory in their ignorance and seem to wear it as a badge of manhood.

I am depressed about the future!!

What have I done?...Not nearly enough, but I've travelled many miles to protests and demonstrations all over Scotland and written several letters newspapers local and national, at every oppertunity condemned Blair and his acolytes for the biggest political crime in my lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:02 PM

I have sat for about five minutes trying to put something into words to express the way I feel about this incident.

It is sickening and, even in the situation in which the US and UK soldiers have been placed, is inexcusable. Even more inexcusable is the cover up by the powers that be and the lack of any real effort by the media in general to air the story. The bastards in the White House and Number Ten Downing Street have a lot to answer for, not that they will ever have to do that.

This is the sort of time when I hope that there is a hell and that these people will burn in it forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: heric
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 05:29 PM

As happened with the white phosphorous in Fallujah. (They started out with it's only for illumination, then moved on to it was to flush out entrenched insurgents, then came video of burned civilians.)

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 05:13 PM

Agreed as far as the actual "who killed whom and why", artbrooks. Not, however, about the cover up by the US military of the story until January (as per the Times report). Until then, they insisted that the 15 had been killed by the blast - now known to be untrue.

So, no matter whatever else the inquiry brings to light, we already know that the US military lied initially.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 05:13 PM

"It is being investigated" - an investgation that only started when Time Magazine started sniffing around with video evidence, after months during which the army had been presenting a version of events whuich they now admit was totally fictitious.

People do terrible things when they are in a terrible situation, that is predictable, it is even understandible. But the cover-ups and the attempted cover-ups, that is another matter. It's worth remembering that the initial inquiries into My Lai determined that nothing wrong had hapened.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 05:04 PM

It's obvious that this needs investigating. Soldiers throughout history....young, scared, intense young men under stress...have done such things. And usually the authorities would rather deny, obfuscate and hedge than publicize.

If it is true, it is ghastly and horrific, and ANYONE who participated should be brought to justice of the harshest kind. There are soldiers who endure the stresses of this insane 'war' without cracking in such atrocious ways, and we need to be rid of those who cannot.

I hope the clear, unadulterated truth comes out, even if it IS another My Lai.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:53 PM

It is being investigated. Until the results are in, "innocent until proven guilty" applies.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: frogprince
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:41 PM

Sometimes I drop into a thread just to say "me, too"; other times I just nod and say it to myself. None of us can see how many of the others have tears in our eyes when we learn of this sort of thing. I can only take it on myself, emotionally, to a certain degree, before I have to ask myself if there is a realistic way in which I could leave this country, because my tax dollars have been paying for the bullets and bombs killing these people.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:28 PM

As often as not - and the 9/11 threads were a case of this - people post here on these kind of threads not as a way of registering outrage, but as a way of trying to deal with the shock felt by coming up against terrible things.

It's rather the same way as when your are together with friends in the wake of some terrible event, you want to talk about it. That's not a matter of making a public protest, it's a way of dealing with your own feelings, and trying to make sense of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:15 PM

Why were 9/11 threads started here then? Surely all the outrage would have been better directed elsewhere? Dream on.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:06 PM

Just hold up a sec here!!

Because hordes of folks are not posting their outrage to this thread (to be seen by how many people?) doesn't mean the outrage is not there--or that they're not speaking out loudly where it might count for something. Consider the fact that asking various news services why they are ignoring this story and writing to one's senators and representatives might be one hell of a lot more important or effective that posting to this thread.

Other than being outraged at the apparent lack of outrage, what are you doing about it!???

Don Firth