BS: Iman shames the U.S military?

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 06:05 PM

8 Marines charged with the Haditha massacre.

What about the slimy bastards who started this war, and encouraged a policy of "terrorism against civilians".

Time for the American people to reclaim their great country.
The ballot box has proved an escape route for the politicians, but America's youth are still dying in Iraq and nobody knows for what they die....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 May 06 - 08:57 AM

You've heard of "Friendly Fire"? (Well, the British and Canadians have...)

This was "Angry Fire"!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 06 - 08:30 PM

Noone is going to get tried for murder for dropping bombs on people, no matter how many non-combatants they kill. That's not how it works.

Unless of course you're a murderous dictator who has passed his sell-by-date as a useful ally.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: heric
Date: 28 May 06 - 12:28 PM

Strange these last two paragraphs about houses burned in the area, impliedly on the same day. They don't seem to match any of the three houses attacked by the marines who were road-bombed, as those three houses were (apparently) all being investigated the next day.


"Another point of dispute is whether some houses were destroyed by fire or by airstrikes. Some Iraqis reported that the Marines burned homes in the area of the attack, but two people familiar with the case, including Hackett, the lawyer, said warplanes conducted airstrikes, dropping 500-pound bombs on more than one house.

That is significant for any possible court-martial proceedings, because it would indicate that senior commanders, who must approve such strikes and who would also use aircraft to assess their effects, were paying attention to events in Haditha that day."

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:28 AM

Thinking with their feet,- I see on to-days BBC TV that 1000 soldiers have deserted the Britsh Army, this is triple the rate, good on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:01 AM

I know what you mean, ar mhacha. As a Macedonian from Thessaloniki, a 2300 year old city established by the glorious Philip II, I detest it every time I have to use my passport which says "Greek Republic". Ha! If only Alexander the Great was still alive, those murdering Athenians & Peloponnesians would never have taken over.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 May 06 - 06:55 AM

This story has also been highlighted this week-end in Irish newspapers,
the ugly murdering armies of occupation will always be with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:33 AM

Carol... you're right that these horrors are presented to us as isolated incidents committed by basically good people who have been pushed "over the edge".   Notice how even the Times article pointed out that this area was a "hotbed of terrorism", and that US troops had been killed there three months previously. A subtle way of trying to excuse shocking brutality.

What is most sad is that many do not realise that this sort of behaviour is a pattern in all wars and "terrorism" is endemic in all nations who make war.
A lot of people prefer to ignore this unpalatable side of war, I have already mentioned our Christian brothers, but now iI would like to include the Conservatives here who have been praised in other threads for their "grownupness".

"For he is an honourable man....So are they all...all honorurable men"

W S                         Ake.....

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 06 - 11:22 PM

I think on this particular Memorial Day, the only war dead I'm going to honor are the innocent civilians who have been killed in wars. Maybe next year I'll go back to honoring the people who fight and die.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: heric
Date: 27 May 06 - 11:06 PM

Yes, that's the one that was the lead story in today's paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 06 - 10:31 PM

Thanks for the heads up about the San Diego paper, heric. Here's a link to one of the articles (it might require giving some information to get in, but I just gave fake information)...

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060527/news_1n27haditha.html

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: heric
Date: 27 May 06 - 09:54 PM

This can't be denied.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 06 - 09:53 PM

Left or right shouldn't make any difference when it comes to dealing with apparent atrocities carried out by our own forces. And sometimes it actually does work that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: heric
Date: 27 May 06 - 09:29 PM

No, Don. The San Diego paper is pretty far right. Lots of momentum on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 May 06 - 08:51 PM

I heard it. On NPR. That's what makes NPR "liberal media" and probably a bunch of traitors to boot. They actually give you the news that, as an informed American, you really should know.

Can't have that sort of thing going on, now can we?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 27 May 06 - 08:40 PM

Oh thanks for rejuvenating this ake. I wanted to early today but I couldn't find it. The Haditha matter now has major momentum - top of front page of today's newspaper signonsandiego.com

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 06 - 07:00 PM

They try to make these things look like isolated incidents (when they even get mentioned at all... so far, I haven't seen these latest developments mentioned in any of the US media).

One of my friends who is a Marine and a Vietnam Vet, and who served in covert ops in Laos and Cambodia, said he he couldn't tell anyone about the things he did in those countries, but he hinted that they were terrible.

I asked him if it was one of those situations where he would have to kill me if he told me. He said, "No, if I told you, I would have to kill myself".

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 06 - 06:30 PM

Update on US investigation.

Hope this will signal the end for Bush and Blair
Surely we in both invading nations have seen enough...Ake

Link

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 08:01 PM

The article states, btw, that three officers in Haditha have been relieved of their duties while investigations continue.

Point for pedants: The articles quote "prima facie" (unlawful) to vaguely imply that means "plainly," when in fact the term means "on its face."

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 07:32 PM

Here's a related story, Report: US soldiers 'unlawfully' shot Reuters cameraman in the Chrustian Science Monitor of April 12th:

US soldiers breached their own rules of engagement when they shot two members of an Iraqi camera crew working for Reuters last year, an independent private investigation has determined. Editor & Publisher reports that the investigation, which was commissioned by Reuters, also said that the shooting was "prima facie unlawful."

But I don't imagine there'll be too much in the media about this, any more than there is about the Haditha killings. It's the wrong people getting killed, I suppose, people with names like "Walid" and "Khaled".

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:50 AM

It was in one of our current affairs TV progs. I don't keep a diary record, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: heric
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:44 AM

What documentary? (I promise - no noogies.)

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 12:10 AM

This documentary was shown on Aussie TV ages ago - I even mentioned it in another thread, but I'm getting tired of being attacked by non-brain-functional political bully boys, so didn't waste my time following it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 12:02 PM

Why not the French? Out of sympathy, Ard.

There's a pattern in the treatment of Germans after the war by the four occupying armies: The more crimes (or damage done) the Germans had committed in their respective countries, the worse was the treatment they gave the Germans. So from the POV of a German soldier surrendering to the US army was first choice, then a close second was the British Army and by far the last choice was the Red Army.

The French came later and they were regarded third choice, but still far better than the Red Army. The probability of survival was much higher for a German POW in the hands of one of the Western armies. If one looks at the overall statistics instead of at single cases the pattern is obvious. BTW, the same pattern was there for rapes.

If my father had not been able to cross the river Elbe surrepticiously with his unit and fool the US unit at the other bank to accept the surrender (the US units in those days were not allowed to accept a surrender by German units that had fought against the Russians) I could not post here. For in the best case my father would have come home long after the day on which I have been born.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 04:32 AM

Surely McGrath's post lends more credence to the action being one of terrorism.

This completely mirrors US action in Vietnam....

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 07:39 PM

Thread undrift.

From this report in the International Herald Tribune dated April 6th:

Col. W. Blake Crowe, the senior Marine commander for the region, said...insurgents had shifted their operations to towns along the Euphrates River closer to Baghdad, including Haditha... "Haditha's really the hub" of insurgent activity in western al Anbar now, he said.

It seems reasonable to speculate that actions such as the massacre in the town last November in which Iman's family were killed can't exactly have hurt recruiting for the insurgents.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 05:55 PM

Akenaton,

Provided the dog you speak of is truly representative of his breed, I believe that I would have a damn sight more respect for the dog than I would have of either yourself or Little Hawk. If it's all the same to you I'll just stick around and annoy the hell out of the pair of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 03:56 AM

I know of a Jack Russell who may be suitable. Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 02:04 AM

Sorry about that Little Hawk. Of course I did not realise that I had to clear any submission to this forum through you for approval before posting.

" if Hitler had never launched his misguided attack on Russia any number of alternate scenarios could have unfolded."

Almost like saying "If my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle". To anyone who read Mein Kampf it was obvious that Hitler intended to invade Russia and defeat Soviet Communism.

"There might not even have been a war between Germany and the USA in the 40's." Very true, there was no need for a war between Germany and the USA. Nazi Germany allied itself to Japan, Japan attacked the USA at Pearl Harbour, Germany declared war on the USA, they didn't have to. For a whole raft of reasons the strategy of the allies was always Germany first. Manhattan would have gone ahead irrespective and German cities would have been targetted. While the Germans were working on a bomb, Hitler did not really have any great belief in it. Scientists working on behalf of the US and UK Governments did and a very careful eye was kept on what the Germans were doing in this field, in terms of research and development, in terms of attaining that weapon, they were always between two to three years behind.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 10:14 PM

LH, I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that Teribus is a sucker for punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 08:20 PM

Teribus, if Hitler had never launched his misguided attack on Russia any number of alternate scenarios could have unfolded. There might not even have been a war between Germany and the USA in the 40's. There might not have been any pressing reason for America to launch atomic attacks on the Germans, and the Germans might themselves have completed their atomic project. Who knows?

The fact is, the most significant factor in defeating Germany in World War II was the vast consumption of German lives and resources on the Eastern Front. It was Hitler's mistake. He should never have attacked Russia at all. (nor should he have attacked Poland, as far as that goes...)

Therefore I think you are taking issue with McGrath only for the usual reason: You want to be "right" by making McGrath look "wrong".

Why not just get a nice hobby instead, like torturing small dogs or something, and stop trying to one-up every "liberal" on this forum?

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 08:01 PM

I think the lies are perhaps becoming harder to conceal, which can only be a blessing. But doubtlessly crimes such as those to Iman will and have been hidden.

Modern day reporting, video, camera phones etc all help information be passed on. Evidence that can not be disputed is more readily available and quickly seen.

And as the attrocities come to light there will be some military bods who struggle with their conscience and find that their conscience has won. Whistle blowing is getting louder.

Every service man and woman has been conned into invading a country on a premise of lies. Eventually the truth of that will be too much for some to bear and their loyalty will not be with those who put them there.

Will those serving there now be regaling their grandchildren with stories of glory and honour, or will they be ashamed to admit their part?

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:38 PM

If it is thread drift it was instigated by yourself. I do not know if you are being deliberately obtuse but 1945 - try thinking about substituting Berlin and Hamburg instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Russians don't even enter into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:31 PM

Thread drift, but "What is likely to have happened to cause the end of the Third Reich" - primarily the decision of Hitler to attack the USSR.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:28 PM

I find myself thinking "Why do they lie?" since, after all when it comes out the lies make it all so much worse. How can we believe that episodes like My Lai were not a reflection of official policy when official policy was to cover up what happened, until that became impossible because of the courage of a few soldiers who refused to be silenced.

But then I look at the pictures, and read the stories, in that link I gave about how torture and murder was carried out by British soldiers in the early Cold War period - here it is again - and I realise that this had been successfully covered up for nearly 60 years.

The truth is, cover-ups succeed. How can we ever know how many atrocities get concealed for every one that comes to light? Was there really anything that unusual about what happened at Habitha? Or My Lai? We can hope there was, but how can we ever know?
.........................

Here's the latest on this from "The Marine Corps Times today:

Three officers - including an infantry battalion commander and two of his company commanders - were fired April 7 for lack of confidence, a Corps spokesman said. Relieved were Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani, who commanded the Camp Pendleton, Calif.-based 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines; India Company commander Capt. James Kimber; and Kilo Company commander Capt. Luke McConnell, said 2nd Lt. Lawton King, a spokesman for 1st Marine Division at Camp Pendleton.

Officials previously have confirmed that Chessani's battalion was under investigation for an alleged Nov. 19 rampage by the battalion's Kilo Company Marines in the Iraqi city of Haditha that left 15 civilians dead, including seven women and three children.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:12 PM

McGrath of Harlow - 06 Apr 06 - 05:21 PM

"But without the Russian Army the Nazis would have remained in power in Germany and elsewhere."

Totally ludicrous contention.

MGOH go away and think about the events of 1945 and then come back and tell me what is likely to have happened to cause the end of the Third Reich.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 05:38 PM

The US military have already been caught out lying through their teeth in two reports on this incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:48 PM

There were certainly incidents during the war in Vietnam, as there were in Iraq I and have been in Iraq II. To me, and to most Vietnam veterans, it is unfortunate that individuals such as Mr. Calley never got to serve the full sentence awarded by a military court, but rather were freed by politicians. However, Calley's murder of innocent civilians did not reflect official (or unofficial) policy in Vietnam, and the incidents which have happened, or allegedly happened, in Iraq are certainly not typical of the behaviour of the US and it`s (sic) forces of war on the whole. The unit I commanded in Vietnam never harmed a noncombatant...but we did provide expended artillery ammunition canisters to the locals to use in constructing a water pipeline. Civic action was as much part of our mission as combat, as it is today in Iraq.

Remember, accusations are not convictions. Personally, I'm willing to wait before blaming possible innocent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:00 PM

Out of interest was Iman's ( Eman's?) interview broadcast on U.S television?

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:52 AM

I can re-call a TV programme on German troops imprisoned after the war who were the victims of the Allied forces, these were not classified as war criminals, nevertheless, they survived on starvation rations until their release two years later.

Can anyone remember when this BBC programme was shown possibly within the last ten years.

McGrath it is worthwhile to expose this, I suppose any country capable of doing this will in the future find means of hiding the evidence, witness the US and their far-flung torture set-ups around the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 06:21 AM

It goes without saying that the US, Brits and the French [why no mention of the French] armies which occupied your country after WW2, by all accounts, behaved well.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Only this week in the press we've seen horrifying pictures about some British run torture facilities in post-war Germany. The truth is nearly always a lot murkier than we get told at the time.
Revealed: victims of UK's cold war torture camp

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 05:55 AM

Wolfgang, It goes without saying that the US, Brits and the French [why no mention of the French] armies which occupied your country after WW2, by all accounts, behaved well.

They were under strict orders to do so an example had to be shown to the Soviets, and the German population had seen enough of war to comply with whatever rules were laid down.

Viet Nam and Iraq are two entirely different matters, the behaviour of the US and it`s forces of war in both countries have turned the vast majority of the world against them.

Living in Ireland for the past 68 years, few if any would have had a bad word to say about the USA, but, at the present time it is an entirely different story, the Bush government has left a legacy of hate which seems to have reverberated around the world.

Yes Wolfgang, we in the north of Ireland who have had the misfortune to be under an occupying army have plenty of reasons to despise our occupiers, and as for those other countries that down the years have suffered death and destruction from those "disiciplined forces" of occupation, they too have suffered and also wondered, at the cruelty of man.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:48 AM

btw....Since you have raised Boberts name, I see him as a fine humanitarian first and foremost and would have great respect for him regardless of his personal religious preferrence.
Bobert is far from a "knee jerk" christian, he's a man who often wears his heart on his sleeve "For all the honest world to feel"

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:31 AM

Wolfgang...I think you understand my point well enough and all your wriggling and personal attacks bear no weight with me.

If the Christian lobby in America really believed in the principles of Christianity this war would be over in a few weeks and our troops back home.
Martin Luther King and others harnessed the power of the churches in the fight for Civil Rights; and latterly the involvement of committed Christians helped to create the political climate which hastened the end of the Vietman war.
When the Iraq veterans marched into New Orleans, where were the crowds to welcome them, where are the marches and mass protests by committed Christians of today?

Yes indeed as Mr Blair Says ....The world has changed... the Christian Churches are part of the new establishment...They have seated themselves with the "money changers".

I have always tried to be respectful to you in our discussions, although I often disagree with your point of view.
Please dont lower yourself to personal insults, when you know nothing of what I have done or said personally regarding the civilian victims in war that many here profoundly disagree with...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 12:16 AM

I think Wolfgang is referring to the Russian army of occupation--

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 05:21 PM

But without the Russian Army the Nazis would have remained in power in Germany and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 04:35 PM

or is hypocricy a nice enough word?..Ake

Ake,

hypocrisy is actually the word that pops up when reading your first contribution here and your response to me. Your carefully selective outrage has nothing to do with the victims of that crime in my reading. Reread your first post and you'll see that it nearly exclusively deals with Mudcatters and what you see as a lack of reaction. Any outrage by you about that crime can only be inferred indirectly by reading between the lines. You seize the opportunity to make a cheap shot at people with other opinions. For you it is an opportunity for propaganda, fuck the victims.

You simply don't have the time to open all threads (the last two threads about crimes from the other side were not started by me, BTW), that's fine ( I understand that for I also don't open much more than a third of the threads) but why is what you consider a good excuse for you not an equally good excuse for others?

Sorry, but your role and behaviour in this thread is far below your usual level.

McGrath, as you say from the victims point of view it doesn't matter who did the killing, but your point why it should matter to 'us' (the last paragraph) makes a lot of sense. In that sense I agree that 'we' should be more worried about crimes by the US army than by terrorists operating in Iraq.

Ard Mhacha, sorry, I know what you mean, but the way you have said it I just can't resist reading you verbatim: have you any coneption what it is like to have terrorists[US troops] in your country riding roughshod Over the civilian population?.
The US troops in my country? Yes I have a conception not by own experience but by reading reports from others and by listening to people older than I am: the occupying US army in our country was godsend in '45 for saving lots of lives and relieving us from a nightmare. In retrospect, we are very grateful to have had the US army in our country. There have been some crimes by the occupiers and there have been unnecessary civilian casualties with little consequences for guilty occupying soldiers. But all in all, we are extremely grateful to have had that experience.

Ard, I know you are speaking from another experience with an army but the German experience with occupying US and British armies (I do most definitely not include the Russian army) has been overwhelmingly good.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 09:03 PM

There is a terrorist behind every Bush. (bumper sticker)

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 06:25 PM

When the military authorities lie about an incident like this, and try to cover up the facts, that's not revenge, and it's not done in the heat of the moment.   

In normal life that kind of thing is called "being an accessory after the event", and "conspiracy to obstruct justice", and is a criminal activity.

It could be possible that the soldiers who did the killing may not in fact have been guilty of murder. There is no question at all that the military authorities subsequently and repeatedly lied about what happened.

But whatever happens to the people who pulled the triggers,if anything, you can guarantee that no one is going to be prosecuted for ordering or taking part in the cover-up. After all the people who tried to cover-up My Lai were never punished. One of them, a Major Colin Powell, was quite successful in his later career...

Subject: RE: BS: Iman shames the U.S military?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 05:47 PM

Now you're talkin. I wish I had info on the credibility of the rumours that this result is premeditated. Recall the movie Full Metal Jacket. Same thing, but based on fear and confusion, not revenge or strategy.

It's easy to see it as revenge in the heat of the moment, after one's friend has just been blown up.