BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 06 - 02:09 AM

That was the point, Clinton, but thanks for explaining it in case anyone didn't realise:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 May 06 - 08:32 PM

I have read the book---thought it a great thriller and page turner. Saw the film---true to the book and a big bore. Sleep was imminent.

The Church should stop its invectives since it just gives it more publicity. It is a "thriller"---no more than that. And, frankly, a rather boring one.   Hanks is a bore, the only excitment is in the many car chases---better done elsewhere.

As to theology---why bother. It is billed as fiction. It is that. Perhaps the entire theology is, but we know not and this is not different than other stories based on the bible---from Red Sea to Walking On Water and all the rest.

Dan Brown wrote a great mystery, made a fortune, and now makes another from this really boring film. But, credit SONY for great marketing of a film that, I believe, was a bomb, and kept up the suspense and did not allow critics a view prior to the Cannes showing. Where it--and Hanks---were resoundly panned.


Read the book---really a good thriller. Thoughts that do not translate to the screen well.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 May 06 - 08:14 PM

"People have beleived the Bible is the whole truth for a lot longer."

Doesn't make it any less of a fiction than The DV Code.....

In the same way that believing that the world is flat won't make it so.....

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 06 - 06:03 PM

Very true, Clinton. There are indeed very few equal possibilities but that is a far cry from there's history and there's imagination/fiction.... They are not interchangeable....

The former does accept that there are alternative possibilities even if some are more possible than others. The latter seems to indicate that there is only one possibilty and all else is false. Sorry if I mis-interpreted that last statement, which of course you made, but it does seem to indicate that history is black or white. It is not. All events are based on someones interpretation, as you yourself have said in the past.

Coming back to the Da Vinci code, Dan Brown has made mega bucks out of his interpretation of certain 'facts'. This has happened all throughout history. I am sure it happened with the Bible, both the old and new bits. Equaly someone has interpreted the 'facts' as Jesus did not exist for their own agenda.

By steering a middle course we can keep our eyes on both banks. Maybe steering closer to one when we see too many perils on the other but only pulling into port when we are sure it is safe!

I will indeed choose what I will, as I am sure you will, but to say there is no such thing as alternative history is either a very poor choice of words or a very naive view of historians.

On a lighter note, Ted Edwards, singer, writer and explorer as well as a good friend of mine, made what I thought was a most asture comment about this whole subject. I said to him, with reference to the Da Vinci code, that I thought it was OK but found it ludicrous that some people believed it was the complete truth.

"Why not," said Ted, "People have beleived the Bible is the whole truth for a lot longer."

He is the same guy who started his first publicly performed poem after a serious stroke with "God. Yer a bastard!" :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 May 06 - 03:17 PM

"The more alternatives are open?"
Just because there are alternatives doesn't make them all equal possibilities.....

"I will choose a middle route."
Choose what you will....

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 06 - 03:14 PM

Sorry Clinton - Must disagree.

The rail network in the UK was brought to a halt today.

The rail network in the UK was brought to a halt today because union leaders rejected the managements latest pay offer.

The rail network in the UK was brought to a halt today because management refused to acceed to the pay request by union leaders.

All three of the above statements could be correct. The first is true but rather bland. The second is true but biased in favour of management. The third is true but biased in favour of the workforce. They are all history. None of them are fiction or imagination. They are interchangeable. These are what I see as alternative histories.

Surely the longer ago the event was the more clouded it becomes. The more alternatives are open? Which is why I say I think I will choose a middle route. Perhaps because I do not fully believe any of them?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 May 06 - 01:36 PM

"Nice to see alternative history"

That's actually a term I reject... There's no such thing.... there's history and there's imagination/fiction.... They are not interchangeable....

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 06 - 01:25 PM

Thanks, Clinton. Interesting article and I can well see where you are coming from. Nice to see alternative history - Pretty much like Dan Browns book:-) I think I will still treat both sides as two differing views of history though and choose a third route somewhere in between!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 May 06 - 01:06 PM

"Anything that is not a pro or anti conspiracy theory"

Everything has an adjenda....

"Are there any contemporary accounts?"
No....

One place to start
http://home1.gte.net/deleyd/religion/appendixd.html

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 06 - 12:57 PM

Film was good - Quite surprisd they managed to get everything in. Lots of bits of the conspiricy theory are poor but if you look at it as a decent-ish old fasioned thriller.

I am learning something here - I always thought that the historical figure of Jesus was pretty much taken as read. I fully understand that what he may or may not have been is questionable but surely there is some evidence that someone called Jesus existed in that era and drummed up a following. Isn't there?

Not arguing here - genuinely interested. Can anyone point me at anything that proves or disproves that the historical character existed? Doesn't the Roman census that is discussed show anything? Are there any contemporary accounts? Anything that is not a pro or anti conspiracy theory of course!
Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 May 06 - 11:06 AM

"I'm under the impression there is no historical proof."

You are under the correct impression

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Amos
Date: 21 May 06 - 04:59 AM

Movie very enjoyable.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: robomatic
Date: 20 May 06 - 03:26 PM

As for the historical existence of Jesus, I'm under the impression there is no historical proof. Jesus is not a historical character such as Mohammed, although the belief in Jesus certainly has great historical ramifications.

As for the "Messiah" idea, I'm not aware of its origin. Where it appears in the first five books of Moses, The Torah, it's Moses. The books end with his death.

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 20 May 06 - 02:13 PM

I'm sure the following point has been raised before, but I would be interested to hear how it is countered by Christians: If Jesus was the true Messiah - whose coming is foretold in the Old Testament, and whose coming would in some way liberate the Jews, how come he seems to have failed in his mission i.e. he was not recognised as the Messiah by the Jews - or impacted on their lives. If he was the true Messiah, something somewhere seems to have gone dreadfully wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 May 06 - 10:03 AM

Saw the movie last night... I enjoyed it well enough for what it was.... a sorta cerebral spy-kinda thriller

Ian McKellen's performance was inspired... Paul Bettany and Alfred Molina were PERFECT.... so were Audrey Tautou and Jean Reno

When there's a special edition DVD with some cool commentaries, I'll own it

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: robomatic
Date: 19 May 06 - 09:14 PM

I listened to "Duh Vinci" Code on tape, and thought it was pretty lackluster, as a radio commentator remarked this morning re the movie:
"A Shaggy Grail" story.

El Greko's comments near the top of the thread match my take on the book. Not being a Christian, I think I can say that Christianity and Catholocism are not under threat, although it is a money making opportunity for the usual foamentators, as well as a laughing all the way to the bank for Mr. Brown, whose earlier work: "Digital Fortress" was a similar treasure hunt of a book which violated the laws of physics in order to advance the thin plot and made me long for the mental depth of "Where's Waldo?"

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 May 06 - 08:15 PM

I haven't read through this whole thread (God knows, who could!??), but I've read enough to get the gist of the thing. Gee, some folks can get snotty, can't they?

Once again, the greatest question of our age rises up to confront us:   "Why are there so many more horses asses than there are horses?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 19 May 06 - 07:02 PM

Uh, that was a joke, son.

;~)

D

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Amos
Date: 18 May 06 - 02:20 PM

I think the two (folk tales and religious writing) are surely intersecting sets, despite Peter's brilliant comaprison of some kinds of each. Nordic tales of the gods, and Greek, both inform life very much the way folk tales do. Messing about with heros or slapping down the hubristic are very folk-tale elements.

The common denominators are myuthological creativity and moral and/or strategic themes.

The book in question has none of these, however, and is just a potboiler borrowing iconic characters.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: GUEST,MrMr
Date: 18 May 06 - 02:17 PM

Sorry, forgot to mention the 2,000 year old conspiracy theory thing about Jesus and Mary would be a genre different than religious writing--it would be heretical writing.

Speaking of different kettles, fish, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: GUEST,MrMr
Date: 18 May 06 - 02:15 PM

As PeterT correctly points out, religious writing isn't the same thing as folklore, but people in this thread do seem to be confusing the two.

The main controversy surrounding the book & film (besides the suggestion that Jesus & Mary were conjugally related & had a female child), is the folklore regarding Mary Magdalene founding a 'bloodline' in France, which has been protected by secret Christian societies.

Religious writing doesn't have anything to say about the 'French connection' because it has nothing to do with religious texts, and everything to do with local folklore about Christian belief.

Everyone here keeps talking about religious writing as if it were interchangeable with local folklore. It isn't, and it appears that is where this thread went astray.

Oh, wait--the thread also strayed in other directions too (condemnation of bad writing, fundamentalist backlash, etc), but that is another kettle of fish.


That part of the book/film is based upon local folklore of several regions (who claim said fame also) of Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 May 06 - 01:35 PM

It's about the supression of the whole human race... of thought control and manipulation

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 06 - 01:04 PM

Further to Freda Underhill's remark: IMO, it is about not only the supression of women, but also the suppression of men. You can't hold a person down without being down with that person.

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 May 06 - 12:44 PM

Bully for Chaucer.....

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 May 06 - 12:38 PM

I found it an enjoyable read, and it was invigorating to read about the church's suppression of women, and to know that this was being read by millions around the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 May 06 - 12:37 PM

Thread #91477   Message #1742993
Posted By: GUEST
18-May-06 - 07:23 AM
Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom

It's blatantly obvious most of the people posting to this thread are pontificating, haven't read the book, and therefore haven't a clue as to what actual folklore the book is based upon.
Good job blowing up a thread just to pontificate amongst yourselves about how good and evil plays itself out in this forum.

---

So, can you tell us about the "actual folklore the book is based upon," please? This would be a really good topic for discussion. We need information, not condemnation.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Desdemona
Date: 18 May 06 - 12:25 PM

Well, I think Chaucer would consider it crap!

~D

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 May 06 - 12:03 PM

To return to the original controversy. It is perhaps worth pointing out that one of the characteristics of Jesus (or the stories about Jesus) is that he does the opposite of the folktale, in fact he often destroys the whole premise of the folktale.   The folktale works horizontally, either through a journey or a challenge or a test or some such, which often sets out problems and mysteries and paradoxes which are to be solved, and thereby entertain and instruct the audience (this is standard folklore theory). There are lots of examples. The true religious story 'cracks open' the folktale. Jesus is often shown in what appear to be folklore situations which he deconstructs, or to put it more metaphorically, where he stops or wrecks the folktale momentum. An example from another tradition is the Bhagavad Gita in Hinduism, which is part of the Mahabharata. The Mahabharata is many, many volumes of folktales, exciting stories one after the other, wars, battles, love stories, you name it. At one point all the armies of the world meet together on one battlefield, and the big massacre is about to begin. Suddenly, the warrior Arjuna says hold it, why are we fighting, and his charioteer, the disguised god Krishna, then shows him the entire universe, how and why the world works, and why Krishna should be worshipped, and that though the universe should be destroyed, one must do one's duty. This is nothing like a folktale!

There is an interesting comparison of folktale vs. religion in the Bible. In the Old Testament, there is the story of Solomon and the dispute over the baby. The cunning ruling by Solomon that the baby should be cut in half, thus flushing out the false mother from the true, is a classic of the folktale. We are amused and touched by the story.

In the New Testament, we have the story of the woman taken in adultery. It has everything a folktale does -- adultery, the watching crowd, the wise man asked to decide, and so on.   We are waiting for the husband or the boyfriend or some other element of the adultery story to be revealed, or to have something folkloric happen. And Jesus says, 'Let he who is without sin among you cast the first stone.' This cracks the story wide open, sends it 'vertical' -- it questions the entire structure of the story, and, more importantly, it is not a cute story, a neat and touching solution. It blows up in our faces. Jesus' gaze is turned directly onto the reader. 'LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN AMONG YOU CAST THE FIRST STONE!' Are we that person? ARE WE THAT PERSON? We can say no, no, I am not without sin -- but then is the woman to go free, is she to get away with it? So sin is to go unpunished? Who are we to punish? Is there to be no punishment in the world? Have we committed adultery? Can only the pure condemn? What is forgiveness? And so on. We are on a writhing hook which will not let us free. You can spend your whole life wrestling with that one sentence. People have.

This is religious writing, and not folktales.   Religious writing is a terrible thing to encounter. If it does not cause you some fear and trembling, and challenge your beliefs and standing in the world, it is not religious. Much of the world's so-called religious writing is nothing of the kind. With great respect to any Mormons in the crowd, or Scientologists, both of whose writings I have read, there is nothing in their writings that is remotely like true religious writing. It is pseudo-religious writing, a simulacrum of religious writing. Like the simulacra of religious politicians and others who go around spreading their hypocrisies about God.

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 May 06 - 11:57 AM

"restricting myself to matters related..."
Is that a promise?

"it is cheap potboiler stuff"
1)Where does it ever claim to be otherwise?!?!
2)What's wrong with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Amos
Date: 18 May 06 - 11:45 AM

Desdemona is absolutely correct about the quality of the writing; it is cheap potboiler stuff, lots of nice plot twists, but it peters out like an old bishop in the sack in the last fifth of the book and ends up signifying nuffink.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Desdemona
Date: 18 May 06 - 11:38 AM

Correct me if I'nm wrong, but according to what I'm interpreting to be your thinking (again, apologies if I'm off the mark), the fact that one hasn't written a best-seller precludes one's right to have an opinion about one. To carry on with this line of reasoning, anyone who hasn't written a symphony is disqualified from commenting on one, those who haven't designed buildings shouldn't make statements regarding architecture, and...oh, my!...anyone who hasn't been a major success as a folk musician shouldn't be making any remarks about folk music!

Henceforth restricting myself to matters related to Medieval and Early Modern English studies ONLY,

~D

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 May 06 - 11:27 AM

Hey... you started with the childishness... I only followed suit.....

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Desdemona
Date: 18 May 06 - 11:22 AM

Oh for heaven's sakes; "I'm rubber, you're glue"!

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 May 06 - 11:20 AM

Ya... whatever......

So you do better then....

How many books have YOU had on the best seller list?!?!

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Desdemona
Date: 18 May 06 - 11:17 AM

I read two paragraphs of the wretched thing back when everyone was talking about it and hurled it across the room. The writing is absolutely abysmal; if my 8th grade son produced anything that bad (to say nothing of the prodigal use of italics; enough, already, we get it, this is meant to be important!) I'd expect his English teacher to flunk him.

The fact that it's been at the top of the NY Times best-seller list for some shocking length of time merely adds to my growing despair at what appears to be the steadily shrinking IQ of my native country as a whole (as if the 2004 election wasn't enough!).

~D

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 May 06 - 10:33 AM

Lots of their fellow fundies....

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 06 - 10:30 AM

Who believes them?

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 May 06 - 10:27 AM

"The time of "The Flood" hasn't been discussed."

Well according to the 'fundies' it can't be more than 6000 years ago....

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 06 - 10:23 AM

Grab,

My statement that agriculture is a recent invention (10000-7000 years old) means I know it predates Jesus. The time of "The Flood" hasn't been discussed. And, please see the remark that 'global' would likely refer to a large local area. The whole idea of 'global' is only 1000 years old at most.

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 May 06 - 09:52 AM

So was George Bush's invasion of Iraq, come to that........

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 May 06 - 09:42 AM

Scientology is based on total fiction, why not X-tianity?

Works for the Moonies too...

and for the Mormons.....

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Grab
Date: 18 May 06 - 08:00 AM

Re the Koran, IIRC Mohammed lived in the 7th century AD. So any Jesus-related content in there can only have been inherited from existing written works or oral tradition.

Peace, agriculture is a recent "invention", but it certainly predates Jesus.

For myself, I reckon it's pretty certain Jesus existed. His divinity or otherwise is a matter of faith and can't be proved. And since the scriptures didn't get written until much later, there's definitely a whole bunch of fiction bound up in it too. The stories about his birth, for example - all those shepherds and wise men, and the Herod thing - are almost certainly fiction. But without Jesus existing, it's difficult to see how Christianity could come about. It's not like Judaism which is simply the folk traditions of one particular nomad tribe - this is a from-scratch creation in a world where every tribe already had their own religions, and you simply can't do that without a charismatic leader (or leaders) to drive it. Since Clinton mentioned the Mormons, I'd say it's rather like denying the existence of Joseph Smith. Peter and his mates were almost certainly the charismatic leaders who made it go somewhere rather than fizzle out, but even then it's difficult to see how they could have made it happen without a real original crucified Jesus whose name/reputation they could draw on.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 06 - 07:23 AM

It's blatantly obvious most of the people posting to this thread are pontificating, haven't read the book, and therefore haven't a clue as to what actual folklore the book is based upon.

Good job blowing up a thread just to pontificate amongst yourselves about how good and evil plays itself out in this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 May 06 - 06:19 AM

Speaking from within another tradition, we have zero evidence, zero, of the kind you seem to want for the existence of the Buddha. We have no fingerprints, no archeology that says the Buddha was buried here, no "non-Buddhist" historian of record, nothing. What we have is an oral tradition that was not written down for two hundred years after the Buddha's passing (and even that date is contested).   The first real dates we have are in Asoka's time, because we have some pillars. Most of early Indian history is dated by the wobbly dates we have for the Buddha!

We actually have far more trace of Jesus (at least we can date the gospels within about 50-100 years of his life).

Did the Buddha exist? Yes. On balance, I would say yes. That is what you have to do with ancient history and oral traditions. It is awash in folklore (yes), and myth (yes), and wishful thinking (yes). But there is more. Something was going on, to which we can give the name the Buddha.


yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 May 06 - 03:57 AM

A Catholica women's organisation in Australia has commented that the book is truthful in one regard: it reveals the extent of the church's suppression of women.

(excerpts from article follow):

Women played an essential role in the early church and until the early ninth century it ordained women as priests, according to Marilyn Hatton, president of the Ordination of Catholic Women in Australia. "At [ The Da Vinci Code's] heart there is a profound truth: that the church suppresses the feminine," Ms Hatton said. "This suppression has extended even to re-writing the church's own history - that is, the current ecclesiastical spin that claims the church has only ever ordained men."

The Archbishop of Sydney, Cardinal George Pell, has described the fictional work is a "crude fantasy" and a "lowbrow read".

Ms Hatton said archaelogists had recently discovered several images of early church women dressed in priestly vestments. One mosaic uncovered in the Church of St Praxedis in Rome showed a woman wearing the same kind of cross that bishops wear today. The Catholic Church's Biblical Commission found in 1976 there was no scriptural reason to exclude women from ordained ministry. It was overruled by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger before he was elected Pope, Ms Hatton said.

" The Da Vinci Code gives us an opportunity to reconsider the church's exclusion of women, and the justification it gave to reduce women's rights and freedoms."

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 May 06 - 01:06 AM

There is NO evidence accepted by any reputable geologist or archaeologist to support the idea that Planet Earth was ever completely covered in water to the height of the highest mountains

And there is PLENTY of evidence against the idea....

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 May 06 - 12:48 AM

archeology.

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 May 06 - 12:00 AM

"As to what would make one say "Global Flood"

Delusion, ignorance and/or blind faith....

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Peace
Date: 17 May 06 - 11:26 PM

Agriculture is a relatively recent 'invention', Clinton. As to the interpretation of what was meant (is meant) by the term "Great Flood", heck, who knows. It's likely that the Black sea was created by an influx of salt water: something made it rise rapidly. There are deposits of freshwater creatures that died as a result of an increase in salinity. That would take one big salt shaker.

As to what would make one say "Global Flood", I don't know. When yer upto yer arse in alligators, ya tend to think the whole world is a swamp. If your known world is the Mediterranean area, it might seem global to a writer/observer there.

Subject: RE: BS: Da Code According to Ron & Tom
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 May 06 - 11:00 PM

D'uh... that's easy.... one does not develop culture until one has AGRIculture.... And where is the best place to develop agriculture?

a flood-plain....

Operative word, flood....

So of course the origin tale you invent is going to contain a pretty important flood.....


"find evidence for and against in the scientific community"
MOSTLY against....