BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:24 PM

Well, no, the reason I said it, Clinton, was not exclusively because of that. No, I said it because of the very large number of times you log onto a thread just for the sheer joy of letting other people know that you don't care about what they care about! ;-)

Raptor has noted this too. In fact, it was he who first drew it to my attention when we were discussing the Clinton Hammond Fan Club T-shirt idea he had awhile back.

He thinks it's funny! He waits with anticipation for the next time you will care enough to bother to let us all know just how much you don't care.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:33 PM

Right, so I'm as guilty as the next now for hijacking the thread & making it about personalities contributing.

Now, back to the topic at hand.

One of the best things about 'Seven Life Lessons of Chaos' I mentioned above, is it allows us ordinary folk a way to appreciate chaos theory in lay terms, and helps us realize how chaos is the glue to the interconnectedness of all things, that allows us to go with the flow of events, to unlock creativity through heightened tolerance for ambiguity and ambivalence, to pay attention to subtlety, and finally, to act according to one's internal rhythms with integrity.

That's a LOT to accomplish with one teeny, tiny book. As you read it (if your mind is open, that is) it becomes clear that the ossification of religious ideology is what has been holding us back. We need something genuine and real that gives OUR lives meaning. Religion hasn't been able to deliver on that score for most people on the planet for the better part of two centuries now.

And with all due respect Little Hawk, switching hitters from west to east hasn't made any difference. Ossified religious ideologies are ossified religious ideologies, no matter where they originate from in a post-religious world.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:36 PM

Oh, I'm all for new and fresh viewpoints on the subject, Sori. No problem about that. I've read some great stuff lately too, stuff that does not derive from the old religious traditions at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:38 PM

ossified

Damn good word that!

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: dianavan
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:45 PM

The best thing I have read on this thread is that Jesus was meant to be a role model. The same can be said of any philosopher/God/king rolled into one. Everyone needs positive role models. Some need it more than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:45 PM

Thank you, thank you, thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:46 PM

In fact, the newer the material is, generally speaking, the better I like it. It hasn't had time yet to ossify. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:53 PM

One of the most common questions that theists ask nontheists is "Why don't you believe in my god?". The answer is that we simply do not see any valid reason for holding such a belief. In order to rationally believe any claim, one must first have credible evidence. There is, however, no credible evidence for the existence of a god. So nontheists don't believe in gods for the same reason that theists don't believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, or the gods of other religions.

I contend that we are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than monotheists do. :)

When theists understand why they dismiss all the other possible gods and goddesses, then and only then will they understand why I freely choose not to believe in their god(s)/goddess(es).

A misconception held by many theists is that nonbelievers reject religion because they do not understand it. Typically, nonbelievers understand the dominate religion of their culture quite well, often better than many of the believers. For example, here in the USA, where most religionists are Christians, many nontheists are former Christians who have examined the Christian religion carefully and rejected it as mythical. It is precisely because the former Christian was open-minded enough to question and honestly seek answers that he or she ended up rejecting Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:56 PM

Think Salman Rushdie and the Clash version of 'I Fought the Law' to get some idea of how us nontheist freethinkers feel when we try and put a toe in the water to talk with theists, especially these days when even the religious believers are scared of their religious brethren, be they Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh...

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:59 PM

How do you define the word "God", Sori? (I'd like to know.) I don't mean how do you define someone else's version of God, I mean how would YOU define "God"? What would you regard as an accurate definition?

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:06 PM

"So far it's been Little Hawk, Big Mick, and you."

Would you be kind enough to explain how you think I have attacked you?

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Bill D
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:37 PM

*reading thru hurriedly....and I see this from Sori:

"I do not believe the man Christians call Jesus, or Joshua, was an actual person."

Then this: "I believe we are all divine cosmic beings, having a human, earthly experience."

Mercy, Sori! There IS some evidence that some real person is the source of those stories, whether you believe the metaphysical parts or not..(I don't)...but then you casually state that you DO believe something that there could be no possible evidence for.

I can comprehend how a person can get status and a following, but I cannot, (and I suspect YOU cannot) explain exactly what a "...divine cosmic being...." is. much less how 'it' could have ".. a human, earthly experience."

   Just goes to show that most 'belief' is just a matter of mood, orientation and whim, rather than being based ON any real evidence...

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:42 PM

Well, Bill, "belief", by definition is just that...belief. It is not knowledge. You have to KNOW something to know it, but you can believe anything you want. Believing is not necessarily knowing...but knowing IS believing. ;-)

I tend to believe that Jesus really existed. I don't know it. I think it's rather probable, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Bill D
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:49 PM

hey...what is this, Little Hawk? An agreement? *grin* I 'tend' to believe that there was a historical character, also....but that is as trivial as was Helen of Troy before they found Troy. Now what? It still proves little about the details of the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:56 PM

As far as "proof" goes, Bill, I very much doubt we are going to find any. Imagine trying to prove things about any person who lived 2,000 years ago! It's not an easy proposition. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:57 PM

Keriste: Try to prove something about the Kennedy assassination just 53 years ago--and that was on National TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: dianavan
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:11 PM

What???

You don't believe there is face that could have sailed a thousand ships?

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:15 PM

TFTLATS

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:16 PM

I can readily imagine that a pretty face can serve as an excuse to launch a thousand ships....

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:18 PM

Good God(s)! The Kennedy assassination was 53 years ago? No wonder I feel old!

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:35 PM

It was on Nov 22, 1963. That is not 53 years ago. It's about 42 and a half years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:47 PM

Just checkin' to see who's awake out there . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:48 PM

Whew!

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Haruo
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:55 PM

The Bible says that King Cyrus of Persia was the Messiah, or Christ:

Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; (Isaiah 45:1)

FWIW - and am I the only one who thinks the part beginning "I will loose the loins of kings" sounds, um, potentially kinky or lascivious or something?

Haruo
a Christian for a' that

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:58 PM

There's plenty of kinky and lascivious-sounding stuff in the Bible. Just depends in which part, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: dianavan
Date: 28 May 06 - 08:09 PM

Haruo - If there ever was a Messiah (or Christ) that walked this earth, Cyrus would be my choice. It was Cyrus that freed the Jews from Babylon but the Jews didn't recognize him as the Messiah either. Sheesh, whats it gonna take? I mean what more could you ask for? He was possible the wisest and most benevolent of any leader at any time.

Which makes me wonder how much of the Jesus myth has been taken from Zoroastrianism.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Donuel
Date: 29 May 06 - 08:56 AM

Remember when Zeus turned himself into a Swan and impregnated a virgin woman? Yep it was borrowed by Judaism and passed down to Christianity. Now there are people who claim this myth as actually referring to UFO aliens conducting breeding experiments on man.

Remember when Ossirus was killed and then resurrected piece by piece?
Yep resurection has been borrowed by later faiths as well.

Most successful religions incorporate a prior myth into their new belief system.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 May 06 - 09:08 AM

I understand the purpose of your new thread, Sori. I don't understand your need to create a new identity in order to start it. Who are you in the Julius Caesar thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 06 - 09:21 AM

WHY IS IT? When a post of this type is started, it is by someone
who is perhaps a disbliever? Fear not and be secure in your own belief.
What are you looking for, support or reason for change?


(I read very little of this thread so maybe the tide changed - however, my comment stands)

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 06 - 10:21 AM

That's what I thought as well, Sinsull. I am not sure it is the obvious suspect though. Perhaps Joe or one of the clones can look at the IP addresses to see if it is?

If it is I guess the answer to your question is that they were doing spectaculary poory on the other one? But that's only my 2 penn'urth. Sori's arguments on this one do seem a lot more reasoned so even it is the character I have in mind they seem to be faring better here.

I am on a course for the next few days so I may only be popping in and out occasionaly but I will keep my eye on it.

Joe/Clones if this is a question of multiple identities can you do anything about it? Ta.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 06 - 12:45 PM

"There IS some evidence that some real person is the source of those stories"

Actually, there's not.... and there's a whopping great SILENCE where there SHOULD be evidence IF such a person had existed....

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Bill D
Date: 29 May 06 - 01:15 PM

actually, there IS..."some" means simply that, Clinton. A lot of it is vague, but there are enough sources to indicate the possibility. Like I said, it is irrelevant to the metaphysical issues.

All the stories are a counter example to your SILENCE. I doubt very much that any solid evidence will ever be produced, but we know a lot of historical figures only by some odds & ends of writing by others.....even King Arthur may have had some real origins.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 06 - 01:23 PM

Yes... because independant of the MYTH we have outside sources that talk about people that may have helped inspire the creation of King Arthur....

Not so in the Jesus case....

"it is irrelevant to the metaphysical issues"
It is

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 May 06 - 01:25 PM

If any stories remain about you and are passed down to posterity, Clinton, I could forgive people for refusing to believe that you ever existed too...

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 06 - 01:32 PM

Whatever LH....

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Jeri
Date: 29 May 06 - 01:34 PM

Seems like this is an intentional troll to me.

And Dave the Gnome, I don't know who Sori is, although I can speculate. It's pointless, really, for everyone to be obsessing all over Mudcat, wondering "Who's Sori now?"

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Haruo
Date: 29 May 06 - 02:18 PM

Donuel wrote, "Remember when Zeus turned himself into a Swan and impregnated a virgin woman? Yep it was borrowed by Judaism..."

Say what? When and where and in what form was this myth borrowed by Judaism? Christianity, I see your point although I disagree that there's a lineal descent, but Judaism? Show me...

Haruo (not from Missouri, but still)

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 May 06 - 02:41 PM

Sure was a long build-up to Jeri's punch line. What an impressive conspiracy--all those postings by so many people. Selfless sacrificing of time and energy--in the service of wit.

But I love it -- "Who's Sori now?"

Classic.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: GUEST,Sori
Date: 29 May 06 - 02:43 PM

I didn't participate on the other thread. I found it to be a turn-off, so started a different thread, starting from a very different point of view.

And why are people being so hostile? I haven't attacked anyone. I am discussing a subject that, while controversial, isn't exactly the stuff of flame wars and troll baiting. It is a subject that interests me. That is why I started the thread.

This was a civil conversation, until some people showed up and tried to derail the thread by casting aspersions on my identity and motives.

Just what the hell is up with that behavior anyway?

If Jeri and Sinsull and Big Mick and Dave the Gnome are so suspicious of my motives, then they don't have to read the thread, do they?

Sori, BTW, is a Korean word for sound, sometimes used to describe the "sound" of traditional songs. Is there a problem using such a handle?

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 06 - 03:02 PM

"people showed up and tried to derail the thread by casting aspersions on my identity and motives"

The standard ploy of the stymied....

That's Mudcat for ya Sori......

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 06 - 03:07 PM

Sori,

'"So far it's been Little Hawk, Big Mick, and you."

Would you be kind enough to explain how you think I have attacked you?'

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 May 06 - 03:09 PM

No problem for me, Sori. So...what is your definition of the word "God"? And if you say, "I don't have one, because there is no God", then give me your definition(s) of the concepts of "God" that you find impossible to believe in. In other words, the ones that in your opinion "don't exist". ;-)

That might help us find out what we're actually talking about here, and that's always useful.

To put it another way...what's out there? Is it just rocks and space and mindless energy and stuff like that? Is there some kind of consciousness involved in all that stuff...or is consciousness limited only to biological organisms like human beings and animals and insects? Is there any purpose behind the Universe or is it all just an accident? Do atoms possess consciousness? Is the physical world all there is or is it a reflection of higher non-physical worlds? Are there multiple dimensions of existence? What happens when we die? Does consciousness go on after death? If so, in what faishion?

All these things are worth thinking about, and thinking about them can lead to both scientific and spiritual inquiry, can it not? Does any of that have anything to do with what some people have called "God"?

And remember, there are at least 150 million ideas of what God is. I'd like to know what yours is, if you have one.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Jeri
Date: 29 May 06 - 04:30 PM

If you only accidentally ignored Judaism, Islam, Hinduim, Wiccanism, Buddhism, various indigenous and imported pagan religions to compare Christianity, and Christianity alone to long-dead, ancient religions and didn't actually mean to bait Christians, you have my heartfelt apology. If you were trolling, then you don't.

The pun was perfectly horrible, if I do say so myself. I'm honored that you took such a notice of my stated belief that you were trolling, but I wouldn't want the thread to be about distasteful personal issues. I don't believe your identity or motives are that important compared to this fascinating subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 06 - 04:33 PM

"Wiccanism"

Can we keep money grubbing fads out of the discussion please....

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 May 06 - 05:30 PM

Hm.

Anyone care to address:

1. What did Zeus-followers think about Zeus 2,000 years past his popping up into culture?

2. How come folks just can't resist wondering about and discussing what can only be experienced for oneself internally and personally?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 06 - 05:42 PM

"what can only be experienced for oneself internally and personally?"

An experience that studies seem to show is almost exactly like a grand mal seizure or other maladies of brain chemistry....


http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books-ca&field-author=Ramachandran%2C%20V.%20S./701-6574794-1488344

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 May 06 - 05:53 PM

You mean like what happens to hockey fans when the home team scores a goal, Clinton? I agree. It's shocking. It indicates a severe mental imbalance.

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 06 - 06:00 PM

I've never understood people cheering for coloured shirts with meaningless numbers on them as if they had something to do with the 'accomplishments' of those coloured shirts....


Every time I hear some dork with his face painted, honking his horn all the way down my street shouting "We Won!! We Won!!", my question has always been "Who's we, FKER?.... cause I looked and I didn't see your loud drunken ass out on that ice/field/arena/whatever......"

But that's a whole different thread I guess.....

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 May 06 - 06:07 PM

Just to set the record straight, Zeus turned himself into a swan and impregnated Leda (who happened to have been married to Polydeuces at the time, so presummably she was not a virgin). The offspring of this odd coupling was Helen of Troy. This is the face that, according to Goethe, "launched a thousand ships and burned the topless towers of Ilium (Troy)". It seems that Helen was married to Menelaus when she ran off with Paris, son of Priam and prince of Troy. Menelaus gathered his friends (including such stalwarts as Agamemnon, Achilles, and the rest of the local Elks Club), got a fleet together (1,000 ships), and sailed to Troy to whup Paris's ass and get Helen back. The ten year battle with all its ins and outs is what we now know as the Trojan War. Wikipedia's "Cliff's Notes").

I don't think Judaic mythology picked up on any of this, because any Judaic myth of any importance at all is found in the Old Testament.

I recall a comic book that a friend of mine loaned me that was all about the Trojan War. Whoever the cartoonist was depicted the lovely Helen (taking into consideration her odd lineage) as looking a bit like Daisy Duck.

Now, back to our regular broadcast.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Jesus as mythic god like Zeus
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 06 - 06:10 PM

Zeus was also a character in one of the Die Hard movies.