BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 09:25 PM

... for now...

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 09:21 PM

I hope so, beardedbruce.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 08:52 PM

Think what you will- THAT is a right that is still available to you.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 07:31 PM

beardedbruce, if I wasn't already familiar with your stance on the US invasion and occupation of Iraq, I would think you were intending to damn with faint praise when you made your 05 Jun 06 - 03:33 PM post.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 06:40 PM

Here's a link to an interesting and well balanced piece carried on the BBC news site - Haditha blow to new doctrine

For example, here is a quote from the piece, from an article by a senior British officer who served with the Americans in Iraq, writing in the Military Review ""The US Army has developed over time a singular focus on conventional warfare, of a particularly swift and violent style, which left it ill-suited to the kind of operation it encountered [in Iraq] as soon as conventional warfare ceased to be the primary focus."

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:33 PM

"The Iraqi media had little interest in the Haditha story until last week, when it emerged that the Marines involved were likely to be punished. When TIME's first Haditha story ran in March, it was picked up by most of the Arab TV stations beaming into Iraq, but the local channels and newspapers repeated it with no comment or further reporting of their own. A senior Western diplomat who monitors the Iraqi media was surprised: "They treated it as just another atrocity, nothing special." There is one other explanation: Iraqis take it for granted that the military--any military--will mistreat and murder civilians. After all, that's how their own soldiers behaved for decades. They expected no different from the Americans, so there was a built-in propensity to believe that many, or most, Iraqis killed by U.S. forces were innocent victims of oppression. That is especially true in the Sunni triangle, but many Shi'ites believe it too, especially those who follow the radical anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. The Abu Ghraib scandal merely confirmed what they had suspected all along, that George Bush's soldiers were no different from Saddam's. Haditha was simply more of the same. But the possibility that Americans may be punished for killing Iraqis--that, at least, is new. Saddam's soldiers were rarely brought to justice for their crimes."

.....

"And yet it is a sign of Iraqis' utter mistrust of the leaders who have replaced Saddam that anger over Haditha has been directed as much toward the Iraqi government as toward U.S. troops. Like many Iraqis across the country, the survivors accuse their elected leaders of cocooning themselves in a highly fortified Baghdad enclave, with little thought for the plight of their countrymen. "The concrete walls of the Green Zone are too high, so they can't see what's happening to us," says Khaled Raseef, the spokesman for the Haditha victims' kin. Whatever they think of the Marines, Raseef says he was impressed with the thoroughness with which the U.S. military has investigated the killings. As of last week, he says, nobody from the Iraqi government had contacted him for an account of what happened."


http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1200784-1,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 08:36 PM

That's more or less the suggested explanation that seems to be being put about for the killings at Haditha, and what happened in Abu Ghraib. Probably true enough at one level.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: podman
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 08:36 PM

According to Guest, Frank, more insurgents acting out of desperation:


Gunmen Execute Bus Passengers in Iraq

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: podman
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 08:12 PM

Guest,Frank
sounds like you have a deep understanding of the minds of torturers, rapists, plunderers, and bombers. They are just frustrated.

Hope you don't have any long commutes.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 07:29 PM

The guys who gave a clever definition of 'torture'...

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 11:34 AM

What is being referred to here as "insurgents" are part of the Iraqi population.

They are desperate and resort to inhuman and crazy solutions.

The American military is aggravating this insanity by remaining in Iraq. In this, the Bush Administration is culpable.

The marines were just being "good Germans" and doing what they thought was their duty.

Who is the man behind the curtain that gave the orders?

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 09:08 PM

Which why there was great amusement when a certain famed 'Airborne Division' was stationed where they were...

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 08:24 PM

Only a tiny proportion of the time soldiers spend in the military is combat activity, in the sense of an army fighting an army. That's always been true. Quasi-policing and "peacemaking" is a much larger part of what soldiers are engaged in these days, and it deserves to be recognised as real soldiering that requires a great deal of expertise. I suspect that this is not adequately reflected in military training in many armies, notably the US.

(Pot and kettle, pdq.)

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 12:30 AM

Movie: The War Tapes

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 09:57 PM

The mission of the military is "To close with and capture or kill the enemy." Period.

Combat is the mission of combat troops. Peacekeeping is the mission of peacekeeping troops, who should be trained in that. The US leaders have failed to recognize this again and again; Civil Affairs Units (such as the Military Government units set up in the Philipines and Europe during WW2) should be doing it but are not.

Just another example of piss-poor planning.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: pdq
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 07:53 PM

Would that the same were true about McRath...

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: heric
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 07:50 PM

Most of my neighbors are naval officers. They don't talk about the politics or business of war, ever. Not even just before or after a deployment. We barbeque, play softball, soccer, or ride with the kids. I'm quite certain you wouldn't be able to coax, cajole, or taunt facts or opinions out of them.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 07:21 PM

Take pride in George Bush? You must be joking.

"Warriors" - sort of Conan the Barbarian meets Worf the Klingon? My father fought in three wars in his time, and if anyone had ever called him "a warrior" he'd have cracked up laughing.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 06:58 PM

With absolutely no facts specific to the latest news, I don't want to cast aspersions on American men and women in uniform, just put it out there:

1) I have heard from some of the young enlisted folks who've been there, then rotated out, and most of them hate it. They feel that many locals are thoroughly two-faced if not worse, and they feel like they've tried to be friendly, helpful, and constructive to the locals yet the whole time they're sitting ducks.

2) These same young enlisted folks have not been trained in police procedures. They are warriors put into a policing role. (This seems to be one of the factors the English forces have taken more into account, yet they, too, have had some bad incidents with the locals).

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 06:05 PM

True enough Mc Grath. So long as they take no pride in their president, don't discuss what they are doing and heaven forbid talk about their role in peace keeping they are guaranteed safe pasage.

Now what kind of people are attracted to a 'profession' with those guidelines?

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 05:38 PM

I doubt it too. I think most people would see US soldiers as being Americans whose job just happened to be soldiering. Poor sods.

If they were to go on about what a great job Bush was doing and how the war in Iraq was all about fighting Al Qaeda, and that kind of stuff, they might get a frosty reception, but that's another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 03:41 PM

Gee, GUEST, that's not been my experience either in or out of uniform, in visits to Ireland, England, Scotland, France, or Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 11:49 AM

I rather suspect that what is involved is a mindset that says "We are peaceloving people, so if we involved in fighting that means we have been provoked beyond endurance, and that our enemies are so wicked they deserve to die."

In other words, a breakdown of the inhibitions that go along with a sense that the people on the other side are much the same as we are, just caught up in a different side in a war made by people far above us.

I think that dealing with that breakdown and lack might be what is implied by the term the US authorities have come up with for the proposed training in ethics for their militrary, that is supposed to help them recognise that killing non-combatants is wrong - "core warrior values".

If the US military have actually being failing till now to try to ensure that people they are training to kill understand those kind of things, and that they are aware of their duty, if need be, to disobey any orders that are in breach of these principles, it is a pretty shocking thing.

Is it possible to hope that this kind of training is now going to be applied to higher levels of command, including the Commander in Chief?

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 09:38 AM

The majority of the rest of the world see US forces as inept and dangerous.

That is not a good viewpoint for those serving. There is no glory in returning military. In fact I would go as far to say that anyone admitting to serving in the US military whilst travelling anywhere outside the US would be met with hostility/derision or disinterest.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 09:11 AM

And, having spent 26 years in uniform (active and reserve), I think that I can say with some authority that the members of the US armed forces certainly don't think of themselves as conquerors.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 08:40 AM

"I don't think that the citizens of the US "

You may well be right, but perhaps the citizens of other countries, including their political and military allies...

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 08:36 AM

I disagree. I don't think that the citizens of the US see the Armed Forces as conquerors. They see them as brothers, fathers, sister, sons, and daughters who have been sent off to fight.

Perhaps those in power see the military as conquerors, but not the rest of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 08:07 AM

"Sow the Wind, reap the Whirlwind"

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 07:29 AM

I agree with you entirely, diannvan, except...

... while I agree a "court" wouldn't solve this cultural problem, if those folks are are respnsible for autrocities (either directly or indirectly) knew they would be held *accountable* then maybe they would think twice about being involved in them...

And as fir the culture, when Donald Rumsfeld upon hearing that art work was being stolen from the musuems says "Henny Penny, you see one vase you seen 'um all" that statement in itself sends a terrible message to the troops that the Iraqi people are unccultured and a sub species... That stsement alone speaks volumes about how we find ourselves in the "culture" of arrogance and mean-spiritness...

Yes, if wa had a World Court now there would be arrest warrents out for Bush, Cheney, Richard Pearle, Paul Wolfowitz, Colin Powell, Rumsfeld, Tommy Franks and a host of other higher ups that have brought this mess to the world community... That, if nothin' else would get the American people to rethink their value system...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 06:35 AM

"No, it's the US ANTI-Liberals (that's referring to the REAL liberals, not just whoever the rednecks wish to put down by labelling them as such!) who have pushed that line..."

I disagree.


As for Canada, why bother killing people by ones and tens when you can wipe out hundreds of thousands and millions by sending them asbestos? Those 1000 mining jobs are worth all of SE asia's population, you know...

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 01:51 AM

I don't mind comparisons to Canada at all, as long as they are valid ones.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 01:18 AM

"They are responsible for creating a culture among the lower ranks that has no regard for human life in the countries they are occupying."

You are exactly right about that, Carol, and I think it may also have something to do with the culture in which they were raised, before they joined the military. A culture that glorifies war, sees themselves as "the best country in the world", and a country that is more interested in instant gratification than long term solutions. A country that views their military as the most powerful fighting force in the world.

I know you hate comparisons to Canada but having seen both sides, I know there is a difference in military cultures. Canada sees their military as peace keepers and helpers: the U.S. sees their military as conquerers. I'm sure that the perception of the citizenry also enters into the peception of the soldiers, themselves. Its sort of a self fulfilling prophecy.

I think that the problem is deep rooted and cannot be solved by a court. Either there has been a serious breakdown in the chain of command or the implicit approval of these actions actually came from the top. Either way, if the soldiers are guilty, so are their superiors. But we all know that our Commander in Chief is totally irresponsible and unaccountable.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 10:02 PM

I will not condemn before guilt is proven. I will not rush to judgement.

But....

The US went into Iraq with too few troops and bad, politically motivated, planning. The troops are stretched thin, and because of that they are doing things that shouldn't and probably wouldn't be done if there were sufficient strength. Bush & Co. mandated this, and whatever guilt, for Gitmo, for Abu Graibh, for whatever, rests squarely upon their shoulders.

It is no more leadership for Bush to say, "I'm appalled and this will be investigated" than it was for Reagan to say, in relation to the destruction of the Marine base in Lebanon, "Heads will roll!"

In fact, the last bit of real leadership to come out of the Presidency was when Carter said, "The raid to rescue the hostages in Iran has failed, and I, as Commander-in-Chief, accept responsibility for that failure." And that was damned near 30 years ago.

In my opinion, it's time for the Congress to retake the reins they have meekly handed over to the President and if they will not do so, the people should appoint those who will.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 08:34 PM

Actuallt, petr, what you suggested was on the drawing board... It was called the World Court... Problem is that BullyBush wouldn't sign on... Thatw as before 9/11... Ya' think he might have had some plans up his sleeve even before 9/11??? Former Secretary of the Treasury O'Neil sho nuff thinks so...

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 08:33 PM

"First a fair trial, then the hanging!"

Probably from many Hollywood Western Movies...
maybe not always intended to be ironically satirical...

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 08:30 PM

"A neutral group" would be a very good idea. But it's not an idea that is going to be entertained by the current US administration.

The UK military and Government of course know that in principle they are subject to the International War Crimes Tribunal. It could be that this is a factor in what appears to be a less questionable human rights record in Iraq than their colleagues from the States. (After all the record of the British in colonial and similar wars has at times been pretty dire.)

Once again, there is no question about "If there has been a coverup" - that's been admitted. The details of who was responsible for the coverup, such as who authorised it, who knew about it, and why it occurred, that's what the investigation is apparently geqaring up to tell us. But the fact that there was an attempt to deceive the media and the world with a lying version is not open to question.

And we've still to find out whether this is a genuine investigation or a Widgery.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 08:27 PM

But they should also be accorded a fair investigation and trial, perhaps by a neutral group.

It won't be fair at all. The people lower down the pecking order will be scapegoated, and those higher up the pecking order will not be punished in any way. That's how it's always done.

Personally, I'd rather see the higher ups get punished more severely. They are responsible for creating a culture among the lower ranks that has no regard for human life in the countries they are occupying. That is a war crime of major proportions, and should be punished as such. I think the rank and file are already bearing an unfair burden for things that are the responsibility of those higher up than they.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 08:20 PM

you can blame it all on Woodrow Wilson, he thought he was appointed by God, attacked Mexico (bombarded Vera Cruz) for no reason (and without congressional approval). Started the WIlsonian policy of 'making the world safe for Democracy' -- (even though no one in Europe thought WWI had anything to do with a fight for Democracy) Never mind what the inhabitants of British colonies might have thought about that.

re the above comment 'No Different from the Nazi Occupation of Europe'
I would say it is different in one way. The Nazis were much more successful at controlling the population. Here we have the largest military power in the world (that outspends the military of the next largest nine nations) and that cant maintain order in one small third world country.

The US has this empire thing a bit backwards. Wasnt this supposed to be self funding according to WOlfowitz. INstead they are spending a billion a week on Iraq - its supposed to be the other way around.

But then you have a president whos managed to run up the largest debt
than all the past administrations from George Washington put together.

Even if there is an investigation and they find guilty and hang those responsible for the killings in Haditha, I dont think this will change the Iraqis opinion. When last year only 2% saw the US as liberators.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 07:52 PM

The guilty should be punished. If there has been a coverup (and frankly I haven't been following this story) then those who CYA'ed should be punished. But they should also be accorded a fair investigation and trial, perhaps by a neutral group.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 07:46 PM

"Show me ONE investigation by the other side about their massacres and war crimes... "

Munich? Post WWII?

"It is the LIBERALS in the US who have established the precedent that a group is exempt from responsibility for their actions, if they are "politically correct", and guilty without investigation if they are in the opposition "

No, it's the US ANTI-Liberals (that's referring to the REAL liberals, not just whoever the rednecks wish to put down by labelling them as such!) who have pushed that line...

In the last week in the Ausse Parliament one of the 'Liberal Party' hahaha! (really far right wingers took over the party in a coup some years ago! and that left the remaining 'liberals' to become the Australian Democrat Party!) moved a motion 'that the snivelling grub on the other side be no longer heard' which was passed. Two days later the Leader of Opposition Business moved the exact same worded motion, and she was expelled from Parliament by the Speaker for 'using unparliamentary language'!!!!


"policy that when roadside bombs are involved US troops are expected to carry out reprisals on Iraqis in nearby houses. "

No different from the Nazi occupation of Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 07:41 PM

A new name to add, it appears - "Ishaqi".

From today's BBC News Night: New 'Iraq massacre' tape emerges:

The BBC has uncovered new video evidence that US forces may have been responsible for the deliberate killing of 11 innocent Iraqi civilians. The video appears to challenge the US military's account of events that took place in the town of Ishaqi in March.

The US said at the time four people died during a military operation, but Iraqi police claimed that US troops had deliberately shot the 11 people...

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 05:45 PM

The US government has a long history of saying that the victims of crimes committed on its behalf cannot be believed. That's why Haditha would never have been openly investigated had someone not filmed the aftermath and made sure it was covered in the media. And even when the government's own people come forward with their own testimonials about atrocities they witnessed or even committed (like the Vietnam Vets who did so), the government says they are not to be believed, and it then commits character assassination against those people.

Many of us here are advocating for more investigations into allegations of wrongdoing whenever allegations are made. But since the government doesn't investigate if it can plausibly deny, we will never see that happen. And for this reason, the guilty will continue to go free, while the victims will continue to suffer.


Here is what some Veterans of the war in Iraq have to say about it...

________________


"Becoming a peace activist, he says, has been a "cleansing" experience. "I'll never be normal again. I'll always have a sense of guilt." He tells us that he witnessed civilian Iraqis being killed indiscriminately. It would not be the most startling admission by the soldiers on the march.

"When IEDs [Improvised Explosive Devices] would go off by the side of the road, the instructions were - or the practice was - to basically shoot up the landscape, anything that moved. And that kind of thing would happen a lot." So innocent people were killed? "It happened, yes.""

_________________


"Blake, an activist with IVAW for the past 12 months, is angry that American people seem so untouched by the war, by the grim abuses committed by American soldiers. "The American media doesn't cover it and they don't care. The American people aren't seeing the real war - what's really happening there.""

_________________


"What upset him the most about Iraq? "The total disregard for human life," he says, matter of factly. "I mean, you do what you do at the time because you feel like you need to. But then to watch it get kind of covered up, shoved under a rug ... 'Oh, that did not happen'."

What kind of abuses did he witness? "Well, I mean, I have seen innocent people being killed. IEDs go off and [you] just zap any farmer that is close to you. You know, those people were out there trying to make a living, but on the other hand, you get hit by four or five of those IEDs and you get pretty tired of that, too."

Casey told us how, from the top down, there was little regard for the Iraqis, who were routinely called "hajjis", the Iraq equivalent of "gook". "They basically jam into your head: 'This is hajji! This is hajji!' You totally take the human being out of it and make them into a video game."

It was a way of dehumanising the Iraqis? "I mean, yeah - if you start looking at them as humans, and stuff like that, then how are you going to kill them?"

He says that soldiers who served in his area before his unit's arrival recommended them to keep spades on their vehicles so that if they killed innocent Iraqis, they could throw a spade off them to give the appearance that the dead Iraqi was digging a hole for a roadside bomb.

Casey says he didn't participate in any such killings himself, but claims the pervasive atmosphere was that "you could basically kill whoever you wanted - it was that easy. You did not even have to get off and dig a hole or anything. All you had to do was have some kind of picture. You're driving down the road at three in the morning. There's a guy on the side of the road, you shoot him ... you throw a shovel off.""

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1741942,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 05:32 PM

The account of what happened at Haditha on that day which was put out by the US authorities was completely false. That has been demonstrated beyond all doubt and this has been accepted by the US authorities. The individual identity of those who were responsible for that, directly or as instigators, is a matter where "innocent until proved guilty" is relevant. But there can be no doubt whatsoever about there having been a sustained attempt to deceive the world about what happened.

The assumption that "those involved would have brought it up" is very optimistic. The fact that convincing accounts of previously unreported atrocities against civilians - in Vietnam, and in colonial conflicts involving the British and the French, as well as in World War II and indeed in earlier wars - are still coming to light, after having been successfully airbrushed from our collective memory for all those years is a pretty strong indicator that ciover-ups do succeed in many cases.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 05:07 PM

If the media hadn't covered it, I suspect that it would still have come out. Those involved would have brought it up, just as No Gun Ri or My Lai were brought out.

But agains, I will NOT assume guilt until guilt is proven -- not the US troops, not for "insurgents", not for British troops, not for anyone.

True justice demands that innocence be presumed until guilt is proven. Trial by media is unjust, and to assume guilt because someone wears or does not wear a uniform insults yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 04:17 PM

The fact that an investigation was eventually set in motion, once the affair had received widespread media coverage doesn't necessarily mean that what happened was a unique or indeed an uncommon event.   In this case the attempted cover-up of what appears to have been an atrocity did not succeed.

As for the question of people failing to call attention to the atrocities against non-combatants carried out by insurgents and the like - the point is, I haven't come across anyone who is suggesting that these are anything other than atrocities. That's not the case when it comes to the activities of the occupation, on the ground and from the air.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: Den
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 04:06 PM

On January 30, 1972 the British Army murdered 13 civil rights marchers in Derry, N. Ireland. That was 34 years ago and they still haven't resolved things. So don't hold your breath on a quick resolution to the situation in Haditha. For anyone interested in Bloody Sunday this is a pretty good site.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 04:03 PM

I said that the violence committed by insurgents is not being investigated for that reason. The reason more of the killings of civilians by US forces are not being investigated (at least not openly) is the same as the reason the Haditha killings were not investigated for several months. The US government does not want US voters to know about such killings, and it does everything it can to suppress this information and prevent it from getting out.

I think the only thing that has allowed this particular mass killing to get out (and finally be investigated) is because somebody made a video of the aftermath of the killings, and the US government can't plausibly deny what happened any more. You can be sure, however, that had the video not been made, you and I would not ever know about what happened in Haditha.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:47 PM

" the other preferred response to insurgent violence is to go shoot all of the men, women, and children in the houses nearest to where the bomb went off. Either way, I guess these methods save the US a lot of time and money, since they don't have to bother with any investigations. "

If it were "preferred", it would be far more common.

I guess tha FACT that it is being investigated negates your entire arguement.




"Separately on Thursday, Lt. Gen. Peter W. Chiarelli, Multi-National Corps-Iraq commander, ordered troops to undergo fresh training in legal, moral and ethical standards for the battlefield, in response to what the mayor of Haditha has called a "day of catastrophe."

"Of the nearly 150,000 coalition forces presently in Iraq , 99.9 percent of them perform their jobs magnificently every day," Chiarelli said in a statement.

"They do their duty with honor under difficult circumstances. They exhibit sound judgment, honesty and integrity. They display patience, professionalism and restraint in the face of a treacherous enemy. And they do the right thing even when no one is watching. Unfortunately, there are a few individuals who sometimes choose the wrong path."


http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/01/military.training/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:42 PM

I do not see that any of the PRESENT administration agree with your "preferred response".

Tell that to the people of Fallujah.

Subject: RE: BS: No Gun Ni, Mi Lai, Haditha....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:40 PM

6) Opposing anti-Americanism.
We reject without qualification the anti-Americanism now infecting so much left-liberal (and some conservative) thinking. This is not a case of seeing the US as a model society. We are aware of its problems and failings. But these are shared in some degree with all of the developed world. The United States of America is a great country and nation. It is the home of a strong democracy with a noble tradition behind it and lasting constitutional and social achievements to its name. Its peoples have produced a vibrant culture that is the pleasure, the source-book and the envy of millions. That US foreign policy has often opposed progressive movements and governments and supported regressive and authoritarian ones does not justify generalized prejudice against either the country or its people.

7) For a two-state solution.
We recognize the right of both the Israeli and the Palestinian peoples to self-determination within the framework of a two-state solution. There can be no reasonable resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that subordinates or eliminates the legitimate rights and interests of one of the sides to the dispute.

8) Against racism.
For liberals and the Left, anti-racism is axiomatic. We oppose every form of racist prejudice and behaviour: the anti-immigrant racism of the far Right; tribal and inter-ethnic racism; racism against people from Muslim countries and those descended from them, particularly under cover of the War on Terror. The recent resurgence of another, very old form of racism, anti-Semitism, is not yet properly acknowledged in left and liberal circles. Some exploit the legitimate grievances of the Palestinian people under occupation by Israel, and conceal prejudice against the Jewish people behind the formula of "anti-Zionism". We oppose this type of racism too, as should go without saying.

9) United against terror.
We are opposed to all forms of terrorism. The deliberate targeting of civilians is a crime under international law and all recognized codes of warfare, and it cannot be justified by the argument that it is done in a cause that is just. Terrorism inspired by Islamist ideology is widespread today. It threatens democratic values and the lives and freedoms of people in many countries. This does not justify prejudice against Muslims, who are its main victims, and amongst whom are to be found some of its most courageous opponents. But, like all terrorism, it is a menace that has to be fought, and not excused.