BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi

Subject: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: DougR
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 08:04 PM

Perhaps this should have been posted on the "Today is a good day because" thread, but the killing of this terrorist is such good news, I think it deserves a thread of it's own.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 08:54 PM

Who realy cares, Dougie???

There's lots of bad people in the world who are responsible for lots of killings... George Bush included... Yeah, good to get one... Another million or so to go...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 09:07 PM

Damn, that's 72 less virgins for the rest of us . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: number 6
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 09:10 PM

My sentiments are the same as Bobert .... doesn't matter, there are lots of bad guys in our current teims around the world to continue the killing.

remember all the propaganda hoopla when they caught Sadam ... did that change anything?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 09:16 PM

With Bobert again here.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: number 6
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 09:25 PM

Here is a very interesting and moving interview with Michael Berg expressing his reaction to today's news regarding al-Zarqawi. He is the father of Nocholas Berg who was murdered by al-Argawi.

Michael Berg interview

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 09:37 PM

Yes, great news, for just about everyone, Doug. The native Sunni insurgent groups are rid of a psychopathic jackass who was making them look bad. Al Qaeda is, well, also rid of a psychopathic jackass who was making them look bad. Snuff-film enthusiasts and armchair babykillers got off to images of his battered corpse. And the child who was killed in the air strike won't have to grow up in a violent shithole like Bush's Iraq. Mission accomplished! And everyone wins!

Well, except for the US. We're still losing, and this won't change that. And for the majority of the Iraqi people, of course, who will continue to die in ever increasing numbers thanks to the invasion/occupation. Yeah, except for those guys, the death of one widely disliked and easily replaceable figurehead is good news, indeed! :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 09:59 PM

Well, gol danged, L-Rex... Where the heck you been???

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: 282RA
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 10:13 PM

It's great news for Iraq but not for the U.S. Americans are not politically complex. We're really very simple. You're either with us or you're against us. Muslim politics is a different animal entirely. Zarqawi kept it simple for us. We knew who the enemy was and it never changed. MAde things easy to predict. With Zarqawi gone, Iraqis can now engage in the Muslim politics Zaraqwi intimidated them from practicing (it was confusing and therefore threatening to him also). It's a very difficult, fickle system that I KNOW the U.S. simply does not know how to play.

It would also be extremely naive to assume this was a huge blow to al-Qaeda. I'll guarantee you their leaders are pumping their fists and cheering. They never liked Zarqawi, never really wanted him. They didn't care for his heavy-handed, indiscriminate, extreme violence. They wanted someone to drive out the U.S. than to turn Iraqis against one another. I'm very afraid the next guy to take his place is going to be this charismatic folk-hero-type who will unite Shiite and Sunni against us. All the Iraqis are looking for is a good leader not in the pocket of Americans. All al-qaeda has to do is give them someone like that. With Zarqawi out of the way, they just might pull it off and it will be all over for us if they manage it. And I see no reason they couldn't manage it.

It's a very bad situation when you're claiming to help a nation whose interests are not yours and whose benefit is to your detriment. That's a doomed venture. And this is a doomed venture. Just as with Saddam, we're going to be sorry he's gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 12:47 AM

I agree. Why should I be happy about the death of al-Zarqawi? He is now a martyr and his death will only inflame his followers.

I am much sorrier for the families who have been destroyed by this war. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's death is just one among many. There are many more waiting to take his place.

Good link, 6.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Johnhenry'shammer
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 01:39 AM

Why should anybody celebrate the death of another human being no matter who he was? Who are we to judge Mr. al-Zarqawi?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 11:01 AM

Stan Bigley, the brother of the British civil engineer Ken Bigley, who was kidnapped and beheaded by Zarqawi's group in 2004, said he was glad the terror leader was "off the face of the earth, not just for Ken, but for all the people he has killed".

I agree

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 11:03 AM

I'm with Wolfgang on this one. Too bad it didn't happen years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 11:06 AM

Good riddance to bad rubbish. BTW it's not 72 virgins it's 72 Virginians, and they all have baseball bats ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: pdq
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 11:09 AM

Glad to see sanity return to this thread! The terrorist bastard is room temperature. Good.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 11:18 AM

What about the methods used?
Who else died in the "safe house"?

reminds me of the IRA Shankill bombing just before ceasefire; they acted on intelligence that Loyalist paramilitary leaders were meeting in the building. Didn't matter that "ordinary civilians" were downstairs. As it happens the IRA were too late as the paramilities had already left. If timing had been better, only a small group of supporters would have cheered because IRA are non-government. So what makes it good when state armies act like terrorists?

(also reminds me of some Israeli actions, like that crippled extremist Muslim religious leader - I forget his name - they bombed)

sorry for somewhat disjointed thoughts, but I don't see others raising the issue so I thought I should write something

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Arne
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 11:37 AM

peace:

I'm with Wolfgang on this one. Too bad it didn't happen years ago.

The Dubya maladministration had a chance (see here and here) to go after the Ansar al-Islam camps and Zarqawi (in the northern "no-fly" zone) before the Iraq war. But they didn't do it when they had the chance, in part because Zarqawi and the Ansar folks were part of the purported Saddam/al-Qaeda link, and getting him would remove one of the justifications as to why we "had" to invade Iraq....

Just so we know what the U.S. "plan" was. Yes, now the seventh or so "#3 guy in al-Qaeda" is (apparently) dead. We're "turning [another] corner". And in other news, Nicholas Berg is still dead.

I hope any celebrations are appropriate to the occasion.

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 11:39 AM

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi killed a lot less than the Americans in Iraq. They get medals.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 11:42 AM

Interesting that only one person mentioned the child killed in the airstrike.
Unfortunately more children will die before this is over.
The responsibility lies with one person only.

I caught a CNN interview with Congressman John Murtha, and the interviewer said that had US forces withdrawn to the periphery as Murtha had suggested they would likely not have gotten Zarqawi. ??

How much involvement do you need to call in an airstrike?
As LRex pointed out the only problem is that the US has lost and they dont realize it yet.

just out of curiousity how many of the above posters - if given a machine gun - would mow down a group of people in a room including women and children - knowing that Zarqawi is one of them.

thats the problem with war (especially a push-button one from 4 miles away) you kill a lot of innocent people to get a couple bad ones.
That goes for the whole of Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 11:44 AM

I wish ALL the terrorists were dead, and I can't get too worked up over al-Zarqawi.

No matter who or what side they purport to be on.

You want a war, have a war. Between armies, preferably in some God-forsaken place where civilians ain't. Better yet, let the leaders of the countries involved fight it out -- the heads of state, the ministers, cabinet members, etc. can compose the fighters.

But the killing of civilians by either side is wrong. To justify it by calling upon the Deity makes it obscene.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 11:50 AM

Arne,

I know that his death will not bring Berg back to life. BUT, his death will maybe prevent some new deaths in the future. I do not revel when humans are killed, but people like that aren't quite what I'd call human.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Arne
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 11:52 AM

Rapaire:

You want a war, have a war. Between armies, preferably in some God-forsaken place where civilians ain't. Better yet, let the leaders of the countries involved fight it out -- the heads of state, the ministers, cabinet members, etc. can compose the fighters.

I remember the famous photo of Saddam with that shotgun. Maybe a Saddam/Cheney bout would have been more appropriate?

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 11:56 AM

"On this side, George W. Bush and his tag team: Cheney, Rumsfeld, and company. Over in that corner, Saddam Hussein and his tag team: his sons, Tarik Aziz and company. All of the combatants are armed with great big ol' scimitars and are wearing only loin clothes. When the bell rings, I want you all to come out fighting, and I hope that you cut each other to ribbons."

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ernest
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 11:57 AM

It won`t end the killings, but it is good that he is dead now.

BTW, why do those bastards always hide in places where there are children and other civilians?

Shows that they don`t give a damn for the people they claim to fight for.

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Mo
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 12:01 PM

Now to apprehend those other beheaders of innocent people...the House of Saud....they have had hundreds beheaded in the past few decades!!
mo

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 12:04 PM

It's possible the terrorists use the internet to make sure there is always a child provided for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: LilyFestre
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 12:18 PM

I think it's interesting that they "found" al-Zarqawi AFTER Bush's ratings dropped to an all-time low AND when his attempt at changing the focus from the war to banning homosexuals from marrying was called at face value...when his motive is to improve his image and ensure Republican majority....seems to me that this death was almost timed...the goofy grin on GW's face made me wonder if that wasn't the plan all along...who knows.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 12:19 PM

Unlike the Arabs who celebrated 9-11 by dancing in the streets; WE do not celebrate any death. WE are just glad that a murdering bastard has met his just reward and cannot lead and order more murders. This is not an expression of celebration, it is a sigh of relief....

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 12:38 PM

"WE," Dave? So, "WE" are not "the Arabs," then, and "the Arabs" are not "WE," right? 'Cause "THEY" were apparently dancing in the streets, at least in Iraq. Which figures, as they're, yanno, "the Arabs," and not "WE." Fucking savages, "the Arabs." It's good... no, great, to be a white person, isn't it, Dave?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 12:42 PM

Nice to be a compassionate human being who does not celebrate murder of any human being Lepus Rex I have not seen anyone dancing over the death of anyone here... Have You?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 12:43 PM

Considering that children around the world starve and die as a result, the loss of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi don't really rank in there with 'let's have a moment of silence for the guy' if ya know what I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,sick of hypocrites
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 01:51 PM

How about all the people starving to death in the world while we stuff our fat faces, buy monstrous 4x4s and pollute the atmosphere?


We're ALL (indirect?) murderers ...

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 01:55 PM

"We have met the enemy and he is us."
                        --Pogo

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 03:10 PM

Hmm, Rapaire

"I wish ALL the terrorists were dead, and I can't get too worked up over al-Zarqawi.

No matter who or what side they purport to be on."

Makes for an interesting view on Irish politics, no? Do England a favour and tow Ireland a bit further into the Atlantic before you sink it, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 03:24 PM

Not to single out the US--the below is from the news:

"The next $50 billion bridge fund, which lawmakers expect to cover about six months, would bring the cost of both wars to nearly $450 billion, and many expect that to reach $500 billion by the end of next year."

That kind of money applied to feeding folks could do a great deal of good.

Then there is this 'plea' on another site pertaining to Guatemala and a school project (feeding kids daily):

"How about asking each person for just $0.25 to feed one child one day?"

I don't know how to go about doing the math on this. Regardless, I do know that monies spent on weapons and war could be better put to feeding/educating/'healthifying' people. As I said at the top, this is not about the US. This is about all countries that pander to and frolic with "the masters of war". It's friggin' time we stopped. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 03:59 PM

Use the money for schools, libraries, health care, food, decent housing.

At USD 1.00 per meal, USD 450 billion would provide about seventy-five meals for every man, woman, and child on the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: number 6
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 04:02 PM

Well said Peace ... putting the money were it is much needed ... not into the war machines.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 04:15 PM

I work in Air Sea Rescue, imagine if I had just one aircraft carrier group and budget for one year to save lives? We just got a few hand held thermal imaging devices last year; our (Canadian) tanks have had them as gunsights for at least five years....

War is obscene, but you must defend yourselves when attacked.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 04:19 PM

True to that, Dave.

I just wonder how it would be if no money had gone into nuclear weapons (50,000 at a conservative estimate), and what good that could have done for kids/families all over the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 04:25 PM

Sir William Stephenson (Intrepid) said the same thing after WW2.

"We already have several global wars to fight , ignorance,starvation,disease,poverty, and there is enough glory for all in defeating these enemies"

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 04:29 PM

you must defend yourselves when attacked

Does everyone have this right, or just the Western hegemonic empire?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 04:38 PM

Everyone has the right CaroleC; but no-one has the right to murder by turning children and civilian aeroplanes into bombs, and killing innocent men women and children. Then celebrating the deaths by dancing in the street....No-one!

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: MarkS
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 04:43 PM

We did not even have the decency to file an environmental impact statement before we dropped the bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 05:13 PM

So would have it been better for him to live and keep beheading innocent people? He certainly was not about to stop doing evil things.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 05:40 PM

but no-one has the right to murder by turning children and civilian aeroplanes into bombs, and killing innocent men women and children

But it's ok to kill innocent women and children with cluster bombs, landmines, and white phosphorus after saying about the insurgents, "bring em on".

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 05:41 PM

If we hadn't spent the money on nuclear weapons and other forms of defense...

a few, very few, bad guys with rusty machetes, dead bodies to put in wells, bamboo sticks and rocks could have taken over entirely. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 05:53 PM

Not too surprised that Dianavan isn't happy that al-Zarqawi is dead. It's not like he's really evil like Steven Harper and David Emerson, the Canadian politicians that she said she hopes the terrorists kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 07:02 PM

I just wonder how it would be if no money had gone into nuclear weapons (50,000 at a conservative estimate), and what good that could have done for kids/families all over the planet.

Probably by now there would have been several world wars, another 300 million dead, and fossil fuels would have been burned away fueling tens of thousands of warcraft, the death of democracy at home and abroad, and about ten new religions.

Meanwhile, no one would have gone to the moon, no United Nations, no technology gone to advancing medicine, computers would be a couple generations behind where they actually are, and rather than the societal frisson of dread over the end of civilization, would be the dull sense that somehow, somewhen, things could have been better, sorta like George Orwell's 1984.

And we'd all be in uniform.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 07:48 PM

Arne - 09 Jun 06 - 11:37 AM

"The Dubya maladministration had a chance to go after the Ansar al-Islam camps and Zarqawi (in the northern "no-fly" zone)"

Only trouble with that arguement is that Ansar al-Islam's camp was NOT in the Northern "No-Fly" Zone. The campe lies south-east of it and is conveniently close to the Iranian border to let those who have to skip across to avoid any unpleasantness.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 07:49 PM

Oh.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 08:23 PM

If the money that was spent on the destsruction of Iraq had gone into food, education and medicine, the Iraq may have eventually evolved into a democracy.

Since when do you bring democracy to a country by destroying it?

...and where is all the money that was supposed to be spent on the infrastructure?

No, I am not happy about the death of al-Zarqawi because his death will create a hundred more terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: DougR
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 08:37 PM

Nice to come back on the Mudcat from time to time to reaffirm that there a lot of pathetic, negative, sick thinking folks on it.

As far a Berg's dad is concened, in my opinion he doesn't row with both oars in the water.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Stan
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 09:02 PM

Good riddance to a savage murderer. To applaud his overdue demise is not to approve of everything the US has done in the world. He was a seriously evil man and he got what he deserved.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 09:21 PM

Pax, Shalom, Salaam, and Mir-u Mir, Bruce!

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 09:29 PM

"We have met the enemy and he is us."

Actually how that Pogo quote appeared it was slightly different:

WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US

Those capital letters for the last word make for an interesting alternative reading.

.................
If the killing of al-Zarqawi means that fewer innocent people will be butchered by people who think the same way as he did that is something to welcome. But there is no reason whatsoever to think that this is necessarily true. It doesn't work that way. Apply the same logic to people who have killed much larger numbers of people. Did the killing of Kennedy stop the war in Vietnam?

I'm inclined to think that 282RA up the thread is right in saying that the death of Zarqawi is pretty good news for Iraqis involved in fighting against the occupation, and even for Al Qaeda.

That is of course assuming that he is dead - this isn't the first time it has been reported that he has been killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 09:31 PM

"Pax, Shalom, Salaam, and Mir-u Mir, Bruce!"

Back atcha, buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 09:47 PM

So, there are people with rusty machetes poised to attack Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 09:50 PM

Yes. They want the oil. Obvious, Watson. The machetes are rusty.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 09:52 PM

Nice to come back on the Mudcat from time to time to reaffirm that there a lot of pathetic, negative, sick thinking folks on it.

One of the most pathetic posted on 09 Jun 06 at 08:37 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 12:54 AM

It's a war, this buggar did his disgusting stuff. Now the other side, us, did ours, and blew him to where he belongs, hell.

Good riddance, not a day too soon either.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 03:20 AM

"U.S. troops twice launched massive invasions of Fallujah, the stronghold used by al-Qaida in Iraq fighters and other insurgents west of Baghdad. An April 2004 offensive left the city still in insurgent hands, but the October 2004 assault wrested it from them. However, al-Zarqawi _ if he was in the city _ escaped." - CBS news

So it only cost 400+ lives and the destruction of Fallujah to eventually kill one man.

Even FOX news knows that al-Zarqawi is the least of the problems in Iraq. The threat by terrorists in Iraq is very small compared to the sectarian violence which has erupted between Sunnis and Shiites. Its a civil war, now, and the death of one terrorist is
insignificant.

If he had been brought to trial for the beheadings, that would have been a reason to rejoice but to destroy a city and hundreds of civilians has nothing to do with justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 08:31 AM

Odd. The military has decided that the child killed in the airstrike is... no longer a child? General Casey, of course, said that a woman and child were among the dead. Now, his underling, Major General William Caldwell, says that there were no children. Whew! Now (*crosses fingers*) we can all enjoy the carnage, guilt free!

Dave: Hmm? I didn't say anything about... Oh. I see. Sorry for being so oblique. My last post was just my roundabout way of calling you a racist, prompted by your latest anti-Arab bullshit. Yanno, the stuff about us whiteys being better than them Arab darkies, an' stuff. Your usual material, in other words.

Anyways, no, I can't see the people dancing (except, as I mentioned, some of "the Arabs" in Iraq, who were even dancing in the streets! Savages.), as this is a text based deal. But lots of applause and celebrating. Or whatever you choose to call it when WE do it.

Doug: "Negative?" What could be more negative than crowing over an air strike that (according to initial reports) killed a child? I mean, honestly, I couldn't care less whether Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was killed or not. But if I did, and if I were the sort of person who thought it was a wonderful thing, I certainly wouldn't call this "good news," considering the circumstances. But who am I to rain on your parade with all this "dead child" nonsense? I apologise. Strut and hoot and pretend you have like-minded friends to high-five, and enjoy your imagined "victory," little man. It's nice to have something to live for.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 09:17 AM

This whole story is such BS. Do you know what two 500 pound bombs would do to a house? He would have been jellyfied. Such BS.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060609/D8I4VN101.html

This is the guy who was supposed to have killed Nick Berg (a probably CIA operative). Cut off his head on video. But experts say the film is bogus. al-Zarqawi had a wooden leg, yet the man with the saw in the video was moving around spryly, no limp, etc. Wearing rings and a watch. English being spoken in the background. Fake screams piped in, etc. A CIA psy-op.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 11:41 AM

Lepus I am not a racist I made a statement publicly condemning terrorists on this forum, and still hold that position; and reserve the right to state that WE on this forum and around the world (aka any human beings of any race and belief ) are totally disgusted by it. I am neither anti Arab anti Muslim nor anti Jew; I am however anti any culture that preaches the type of murderous actions of 9-11 are justifiable or worthy of celebration.

Your miserable attempts to debate otherwise are thereby exonerating this type of disgusting criminal activity as justified. As such you are acting like a Nazi, and your methods are beyond the pale of any acceptable human consideration. Are you a member of the human race?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Foxy
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 11:58 AM

According to Dianavan, "Even FOX news knows that al-Zarqawi is the least of the problems in Iraq."

Dianavan claims to be in Canada, yet she watches Fox News, a cable channel that is not available in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 12:11 PM

Ever heard of the internet?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,198651,00.html

Thats a pretty lame attempt at a put down, Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 01:54 PM

"Fox News, a cable channel that is not available in Canada."

we do have cable and satellite T.V. up here in the frozen north, in case you are unaware.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: DougR
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 01:56 PM

Thanks, Greg. I highly value your opinions too!

McGrath: I really believe the creator to Pogo, Walt Kelly, had in mind, "us" not, as you would obviously prefer, U. S. Read into it of course anything you wish.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Foxy
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 02:40 PM

"Fox News, a cable channel that is not available in Canada."

we do have cable and satellite T.V. up here in the frozen north, in case you are unaware.

sIx

*******

Hey sIxy,

I suppose you are unaware that the CRTC refuses to allow Fox News on Canadian cable and satellite services.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 02:51 PM

Dave: Oh, OK. So, you fair-minded non racist, you, when you're talking about this "WE," who you claim are "any human beings of any race and belief," you're not excluding "the Arabs?" Because, and maybe I'm nuts, but when you wrote: "Unlike the Arabs who celebrated 9-11 by dancing in the streets; WE do not celebrate any death," it seemed to me like you're saying two things: 1. "The Arabs" are seperate from "us," and 2. "WE" are morally and culturally superior to "them." Then, you followed that up with: "I am however anti any culture that preaches the type of murderous actions of 9-11 are justifiable or worthy of celebration." In other words, as you claim that "they" were dancing in the streets, it's the culture of "the Arabs" that you oppose, right? Racist.

This impression becomes clearer when one takes into account your recent posting history. Yanno, stuff like this: "We have been informed that the Islamic terrorists do not like to be called 'Towel Heads' since the item they wear on their heads is actually a small folded sheet. Therefore, from this point forward, please refer to them as 'little sheet heads.'" Oh, sure, you can say "I was only talking about the terrorists!" Because we're always hearing them complaining about which racist terms they like or dislike, right? Bullshit. The only people who've complained about being called "towel heads," "rag heads," "sand niggers," "dune coons," etc., are those people (mainly Muslim, Hindu and Sikh) who've been targeted with such racist slurs here in the West. Or maybe it'll be: "But it was just a joke!" Whatever, dude. Tell that to the family of Balbir Singh Sodhi, whose killer expressed a desire to "go out and shoot some towel heads" before the murder. Hilarious.

And then we have this, and, yeah, all emphasis mine: "Tolerance and Cultural differences aside, these Muslims would do well to remember that in our culture we use dark humour and do not supress freedom of speech. But according to them we are infidels and not worthy of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Oh, and music is wrong too, that should be banned it upsets them so much. Fuck appeasement, they need to get laid more often and join the 21st century. Tolerance is not something I see when thousands of them are threatening death to all the west because a Danish newspaper showed a cartoon that they consider offensive." So, you demand tolerance and understanding for "your" people and culture, and expect "them" to realise that "one newspaper cartoon does not speak for the entire western world." And then you lump "these Muslims" into one big "them" and deride "their" culture? Wow, hypocritical and racist!

So... Gotta stick with my "Dave is a racist" thing. Sorry. Nice try with that "Nazi" comment, though. And questioning my humanity. You'd think I was an Arab!

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 02:55 PM

OH o.k .... then what is this?

crtc approves Fox back in 2004

I also see it available on my Cable listing.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: DougR
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 02:58 PM

Guest Foxy: no point in Canadians being exposed to both sides of the story, right? Fox News is the only channel I know of that offers both conservative and liberal points of view to be aired.

Incidentially, I truly hope that Zarqawi was concious enough to realize that U. S. Special Forces and Iriqi police were his captors before he died, and I hope he died a very painful death. Too bad he couldn't have suffered a bit longer before entering the gates of hell.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 03:01 PM

Both side of what story, Doug?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 03:07 PM

Wow, you're one sick, sadistic dude, Doug! Have you thought of trading that mint-green polyester jumpsuit for military fatigues? I mean, they're totally desperate right now, and you've got that "Abu Ghraib" spirit!

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 03:14 PM

As usual both sides here miss the point. There can never be joy in killing. There can never be celebration of a death. I am just as saddened by those who are unhappy about this man's death as I am by those that are happy. If this cruel bastards death is to be celebrated, then would it be justifiable for the Iraqi's to drop a 500 pound bomb on the brig that holds the Marines who it appears killed innocents with intent are in?

I am completely disgusted by a man who would cut off another person's head. I am just as disgusted by a man who would take an M16 and kill unarmed civilians. I am even more disgusted by a man who makes war on a false pretense, unleashes bombs on innocent civilians on the basis of a lie, and continues to try and justify the deaths of our young ones and their young ones on the basis of some phoney justification and poll numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 03:17 PM

Guess you don't have a sense of humour either Lepus?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 03:43 PM

Hmm? Oh, I already covered the "it's just a joke!" defense, Dave. I'm not really interested in your "humour," anyways, just the sentiments behind it. And the joke... Even for a racist joke, it's not very good. Too much set-up, and the punch line is just a lame-ass pun. You could always repeat your almost-as-unfunny "72 Viriginians" knee-slapper for the four-hundreth time. Seriously, it never gets old.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 03:46 PM

You two guys: You are both good people. Go to your respective corners, take a deep breath and then shake hands. Otherwise I won't tell you the answer to the following: What's the difference between a bag of 629 used condoms and an old tire on the side of the road?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 05:17 PM

You might well be right about that Doug - or it might have been intendeed as ambiguous. But I would imagine that for most Americans "us" and "US" would mean much the same anyway.
.................

As for Dave's assertion about how no one is celebrating and rejoicing at this death, well, that certainly doesn't square with the way it's been covered in some of the British tabloid papers.

There really isn't that much difference between the way people respond to violent death in different parts of the world. Even when it comes to suicide bombings and such - there've been any number of war films with people choosing to die so as to take more of the enemy with them, and this being seen as heroic and admirable.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 05:20 PM

I don't think his death should be celebrated; I do think it should be welcomed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 05:23 PM

It's good news (Getting Zarqawi). You don't have to make an issue of how or if you're going to celebrate. It's like finding out they got a bad tumor. It's better than not getting it. Yeah, it might lead to other tumors, but it might not. News still pending.

We needed some good news. We know it ain't over, and we're sure not rooting for the so-called insurgents, are we? <=loaded question.

A lot of Iraqis have cause to celebrate this, the kind who were getting blown up as part of Zarqawi's earnest attempt to foment a civil war, which was pretty much all kinds.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 06:54 PM

Fox News is the only channel I know of that offers both conservative and liberal points of view to be aired.

If anyone ever wondered if Douggie is suffering from any number of serious psychoses and cognitive dysfunctions, here's your proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Arne
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 06:54 PM

Teribis:

Only trouble with that arguement is that Ansar al-Islam's camp was NOT in the Northern "No-Fly" Zone. The campe lies south-east of it and is conveniently close to the Iranian border to let those who have to skip across to avoid any unpleasantness.

Without sources, it's a bit hard to evaluate Teribus's claims.

There is: this, and this, for example, in support of Teribus's contentions.

But there's this and this to the contrary.

But it's pretty uch menaingless quibbling. The "no-fly zone" was meant to protect Kurdish areas in the North from Saddam, and for that it worked pretty well, allowing the establishment of independent Kurdish zones of control there (one under the KDP and one under the rival PUK), and all accounts above agree that the Ansar al-Islam camps in and around Halabja were within the PUK controlled area. And as one commenter on the firts link above noted, it was in part the "no-fly" zones that enabled the Kurdish enclaves.

Which, of course, is what matters here; Ansar wasn't in an area under Saddam's control. Sorry if I used an inaccurate shorthand for the northern zones under Kurdish control (assuming that in fact the "no-fly zone was set rigidly at the 36th parallel, something that's also not quite obvious; the U.S. repeatedly flew into areas below it, and challenged any aircraft at all if they even looked cross-eyed at the U.S... or had the temerity to fly, period).

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 07:36 PM

And they'd have been more likely to have skipped across from Iran as a way "to avoid any unpleasantness". Al Qaida weren't any more popular in Iran than it was in the parts of Iraq under Saddam's control. Intentionally or not, the US provided Ansar with a sanctuary inside Iraq, within the no-fly zone.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 10:15 PM

Oh for heaven's sakes, quit bickering!

What has to be done, has to be done. Its done, lets move on to the next monster and do what has to be done.

Again none of it a day too soon for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 02:58 PM

Here's the point of view of one Iraqi blogger:

Zarqawi...
So 'Zarqawi' is finally dead. It was an interesting piece of news that greeted us yesterday morning (or was it the day before? I've lost track of time…). I didn't bother with the pictures and film they showed of him because I, personally, have been saturated with images of broken, bleeding bodies.

The reactions have been different. There's a general consensus amongst family and friends that he won't be missed, whoever he is. There is also doubt- who was he really? Did he even exist? Was he truly the huge terror the Americans made him out to be? When did he actually die? People swear he was dead back in 2003… The timing is extremely suspicious: just when people were getting really fed up with the useless Iraqi government, Zarqawi is killed and Maliki is hailed the victorious leader of the occupied world! (And no- Iraqis aren't celebrating in the streets- worries over electricity, water, death squads, tests, corpses and extremists in high places prevail right now.)

I've been listening to reactions- mostly from pro-war politicians and the naïveté they reveal is astounding. Maliki (the current Iraqi PM) was almost giddy as he made the news public (he had even gone the extra mile and shaved!). Do they really believe it will end the resistance against occupation? As long as foreign troops are in Iraq, resistance or 'insurgency' will continue- why is that SO difficult to understand? How is that concept a foreign one?

"A new day for Iraqis" is the current theme of the Iraqi puppet government and the Americans. Like it was "A New Day for Iraqis" on April 9, 2003 . And it was "A New Day for Iraqis" when they killed Oday and Qusay. Another "New Day for Iraqis" when they caught Saddam. More "New Day" when they drafted the constitution… I'm beginning to think it's like one of those questions they give you on IQ tests: If 'New' is equal to 'More' and 'Day' is equal to 'Suffering', what does "New Day for Iraqis" mean?

How do I feel? To hell with Zarqawi (or Zayrkawi as Bush calls him). He was an American creation- he came along with them- they don't need him anymore, apparently. His influence was greatly exaggerated but he was the justification for every single family they killed through military strikes and troops. It was WMD at first, then it was Saddam, then it was Zarqawi. Who will it be now? Who will be the new excuse for killing and detaining Iraqis? Or is it that an excuse is no longer needed- they have freedom to do what they want. The slaughter in Haditha months ago proved that. "They don't need him anymore," our elderly neighbor waved the news away like he was shooing flies, "They have fifty Zarqawis in government."

So now that Zarqawi is dead, and because according to Bush and our Iraqi puppets he was behind so much of Iraq's misery- things should get better, right? The car bombs should lessen, the ethnic cleansing will come to a halt, military strikes and sieges will die down… That's what we were promised, wasn't it? That sounds good to me. Now- who do they have to kill to stop the Ministry of Interior death squads, and trigger-happy foreign troops?


- posted by river @ 12:47 AM

---

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 03:22 PM

Thanks Amos - That says it all.

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was insignificant to the Iraqi people.

Who cares about the death of one man when your country is in the middle of a civil war. His death will change nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 08:29 PM

Al Queda in Iraq leader al-Zarquari is dead.

And now the Haditha case against the Marines is falling apart. It appears that the "young" reporter (there is a picture) who is also a founder of a human rights group has some questions to answer.

    Why start a human rights group if you want to remain anonymous? And why did Time pretend their source was young? Why did they pretend he had no involvement with Hammurabi? (When in fact he is its founder.)

    But that is just the start of the many questionable aspects of Thabit's accounts.

    Bear in mind that this "budding journalism student" waited until the next day to videotape this alleged atrocity, which supposedly happened on his very doorstep.

    Note that this same "budding journalism student" and self-proclaimed human rights watcher did not bother to turn over his video to a media outlet or a real human rights group from November 2005 until March 2006. A four month delay.

    That's how eager they were to make sure such a crime is never again repeated.

Read the whole thing to get the full context for the reporters on the case. Time Magazine is not looking too good either.

Even more interesting is the full social context of what is happening in Haditha. It may be all about an effort to extract more blood money out of the US Military.

    On the side of a road in a ramshackle tent tribal elders have gathered for a court case, but it is not an ordinary law court, it's a tribal court. The case defies logic - one brother has killed another, but the tribe they belonged to is blaming a rival tribe for the killing.

    Their argument is that if there had not been a feud with the other tribe, the killing would not have taken place; they are now demanding $20,000 in blood money….

    At the tribal court, the discussion is heated, but not about guilt or innocence. Through a complex network of tribal support, both sides know where they stand, now it is just a matter of agreeing the money.

    Eventually the price is knocked down to $4,000 and a woman, her value to be determined in later negotiations.

    For many Iraqis it's a system that works, and in a violent region recompense appears much more practical than locking someone away.

The article has more on the blood money system and how it relates to the news from Haditha and a previous British case.

    The logic in the British case and possibly in Haditha is simple: If the coalition did not have a fight with the insurgents, the deaths would not have occurred. The deaths cause a loss in the resources of the tribe. The tribe cannot file a claim with Zarqawi--he might chop their heads off--therefore it is the coalition that owes blood money. In the eyes of tribal people such as Haditha residents, this debt is owed regardless of who actually killed the 24 people in Haditha or the circumstances of those deaths. The payment of blood money is not an admission of guilt; it is a balancing of tribal obligations.

    What tribal Iraqis would understand as blood money has in fact already been paid by US military representatives in Haditha. According to the May 31 New York Times payments totaling $38,000 were made "within weeks of the shootings" to the families of 15 of the 24 dead.

So they already have gotten their blood money. Could it be they are trying to enhance the deal? An excerpt from the New York Times quoted in the article:

    In an interview Tuesday, Maj. Dana Hyatt, the officer who made the payments, said he was told by superiors to compensate the relatives of 15 victims, but was told that rest of those killed had been deemed to have committed hostile acts, leaving their families ineligible for compensation.

    After the initial payments were made, however, those families demanded similar payments, insisting their relatives had not attacked the marines, Major Hyatt said….

    The list of 15 victims deemed to be noncombatants was put together by intelligence personnel attached to the battalion, Major Hyatt said. Those victims were related to a Haditha city council member, he said. The American military sometimes pays compensation to relatives of civilian victims.

    The relatives of each victim were paid a total of $2,500, the maximum allowed under Marine rules, along with $250 payments for two children who were wounded. Major Hyatt said he also compensated the families for damage to two houses.

    "I didn't say we had made a mistake," Major Hyatt said, describing what he had told the city council member who was representing the victims. "I said I'm being told I can make payments for these 15 because they were deemed not to be involved in combat."

The article from the Hawaii Reporter has much more on the Haditha Stories discrepancies and the blood money system. Read it all.

The Marine who gave lurid details of the Haditha "crime" may have had a motive for being a fabulist.

    Others have noted many weird aspects to Corporal Briones' previous statements about being ordered to photograph the Haditha victims, and his further claims about his camera being stolen.

    It is highly questionable that the Marines would order a rank and file soldier to do such a thing. And to use his own (non-official) camera to document such an important, possibly criminal event.

    It is also highly improbably that they would enlist someone who could himself face future charges in such an effort.

    And, lastly, it is very unlikely that they would allow such valuable evidence as these photos to disappear.

    This latest news, however, may very well shed light on Briones' motives.

    Apparently all of Briones' statements to the media about being ordered to photograph the Haditha corpses were made after his drunken hit and run felony on April 3, 2006. (His first appearance in the press seems to be an interview with the Los Angeles Times on May 29, 2006.)

    If Briones was so traumatized by what he saw in Haditha, why did he wait six months to tell anyone about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 08:39 PM

Well, today is a good day. The urge to express my feelings is so strong that I am back at the keyboard despite the terrible apathy that has gripped me these last months. You can probably guess at some of the reasons for this state of mind. I am not going into details. Only it seems to me that intelligent people should not pay such a high price just to learn some few facts that have always seemed to me quite simple and mundane.

But I don't plan to go into that today, because today is a good day indeed. An arch zombie has been blown to smithereens. You know, I am the sort of guy who gets distressed at the sight of blood and cannot bear the sight of even a dead animal, believe it or not. But you know, I was shocked at my own feelings of pleasure on beholding the photo of the dead face of Zarqawi. I would never have thought that possible. I have never felt this way my whole life. Yet the atrocities and outrages that these pseudo humans, these misanthropes, have perpetrated have engendered such anger, such sorrow, such rage that not even the most peaceful of souls can control their hatred of these criminals. My only regret was that the death was fast and sudden, and I felt pain that the true martyr of our country our beloved Ussama Al-Jadaan could not witness this day which he had predicted and played a big role in bringing about.

Well, I am not going to dwell on the reaction of people like Al Jazeera (again) who showed their true color today without even any attempt at dissimulation. So this arch murderer of day laborers, bakers, school children and etc. etc., this master be-header of poor hostages and planner of car bombings and all kinds of the most outrageous orgies of mass killings; this man is to be mourned and regretted as a martyr and mujahid etc. etc.!!! Yes, friends, believe it or not these sentiments were expressed openly and repeated hysterically on mass media like the notorious one referred to above. I still cannot understand why when whole countries and regimes are labeled as rogue states and suffer sanctions and the like when, here we have an official state owned media outlet that has played a major role in inciting and aiding and abetting the most violent forms of terrorism; and nothing has been done against them and those who sponsor and finance them. Indeed the state that harbors this state of affairs enjoys the blessings and the best of relations with the west and the free world.

But it is not that which I want most to say today. I want to congratulate the valiant eagles of the American Air force and all the men of the U.S. Army, the Iraqi security forces and all those involved in executing this just punishment and for being the instrument of providential justice. Blessed be the wombs that bore you, and please accept this expression of gratitude and love from an ordinary Iraqi man. And as for you American people rest assured that our faith in victory has not shaken on single iota. I can only end with the words of our dear President Bush: "God Bless Iraq and May God continue to Bless America".

Al Salam Alaykum

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 08:42 PM

Sunday, June 11, 2006

Some are sad just because we're happy.
Hamas's reaction to the death of Zarqawi caused the contempt of so many Iraqis. The printed and watched Iraqi media lashed out vigorously on Hamas, politicians and ordinary people on the streets are just equally angered by some Arabic official and media reactions which spoke of the criminal as if he were a hero.

It is totally unimaginable why someone would describe the head chopping, children murdering terrorist as a hero. It's disgusting and infuriating beyond words.

This wrongful description of evil is a major reason for misery in this region and it only contributes to justifying more unjustifiable death and violence. This makes one sometimes whishes that Iraq is somehow lifted away from these perverted sociopaths who surround us.

To say I was angry is the least I can say to describe how I felt reading the comments from Arabs on a BBC forum. There was no surprise that all Iraqi commentators were pleased that we got rid of that vicious terrorists but on the other hand there was probably 90% of non-Iraqi Arab commentators who mourned him as a martyr.

Here I'm choosing only one comment that drew my attention because it shows how when hate prejudice reaches certain levels it blinds the minds and hearts of people.
This one comment maybe the most accurate to describe how thousands if not millions think in this region; this Arab commentator is telling frankly why he's sad without lying and without using decorated speech.
I think it reflects the truth in the way of thinking of unfortunately many Arabs; a truth that was released by an individual mouth carrying more courage of expression than those who appease and keep their inside hidden…

    Zarqawi's death means nothing at all because it's the byproduct of the despotic policy that exists in his home country, Jordan.
    There are thousands of Zarqawis in our nation who are getting persecuted and terrorized so they found their way to Iraq where they can vent, thanks to America who brought destruction to the region with the help of her agents (the rulers). And for your information, our information about Zarqawi is vague…is he a national hero, or a criminal terrorist? We don't know for sure but we see that our enemies are so happy that he's killed and that is what makes me feel sad for his death.



I'll end this with a comment from Iraq…

    I used to be against killing people because of their perverted opinions or their anti-freedom doings but after I have seen and lived through their terrorism and anti-humanity extremism I say now that the only solution is to end the life of those who are not even humans. They poison the minds and thoughts of sane people.

    People, let the world live in freedom and happiness…
    I say it to all the sane and rational people; congratulations on the death of Zarqawi.

I couldn't agree more, so if you are sane, come celebrate the moment with us, but if not, get prepared to mourn more demons.

Posted by Mohammed

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 08:53 PM

Is that Woody, or Wordy?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:01 PM

or possibly Nugatory?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:11 PM

Saturday, June 10, 2006
The death of Abu Mus`ab al-Zarqawi is a very welcome news. This, however, is not enough, since too much has been said about this particular terrorist that many people feel that his death is going to change things dramatically. I am sad to say that it will not.

What will change things dramatically is for the Iraqi government to activate the judiciary and begin processing those who are sitting in detention waiting to be released in some fishy deal every once in a while. Terrorists in Iraq should be dealt with in the same manner elsewhere. They should be tried in a fast fashion and made examples of.

They just released a group from detention in the name of the so-called 'national reconciliation.' When they are captured they are said to be terrorists and when they release them arbitrarily they call them detainees.

Abu Mus`ab was a rotten terrorist who committed every disgraceful act on the books.

# posted by Abbas Khadim : 12:27 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:29 PM

Woody - So who are you? Al Salam Alaykum, Mohammed or Abbas Khadim?

I am assuming that you are none of the above and copy and pasted but I can't tell where your thoughts end and their's begin.

...but it seems that 2 out of 3 say that al-Zarqawi's death is insignificant. I agree.

The third one refers to the beloved Ussama Al-Jadaan. Who is this?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:44 PM

Ala'a

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: DougR
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 05:31 PM

danavan: I see now how you reach many of your conclusions. Amos posts one message from one Iraqi citizen (at least he/she says he/she is) stating an opinion and to you, that's the opinion of the whole population of Iraq. Funny.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 06:11 PM

Douggie: I see now how you reach your own conclusions. You make the shit up as you go along.

Not funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 08:24 PM

DougR - You seem to be able to read but your comprehension is very low. I was responding to what Woody wrote, as well as what Amos wrote. From what I have gathered, the Iraqi people could care less about al-Zarqawi, one way or another. If you know differently then please provide a source.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 08:30 PM

Well, apparently Al Zarqawi lived and was conscious up until he was taken into custody, so he had the capacity to know he was going into the enemy's power, and most bitterly he was able to realize that he'd never get to know how this year's World Cup Soccer was going to come out.

This is another area where the American occupation could show a little class, providing good coverage for something guaranteed to keep a lot of Iraqis off the streets. I'm sure such service could be provided for less than the reward to whosomever fingered our boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 08:31 PM

For render unto Television after all!

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 11:47 PM

Ah Doug--with your patented incisive foreign policy analysis, you have again homed in on--by far--the less significant development of the day, Zarqawi's death --meaningless except for poor beleaguered Bushites who are desperately grasping at straws. (Could that possibly include your good self?)

And of course you ignore by far the more important development of the day--the completion of the Iraqi cabinet--including a Sunni as Minister of Defense. Well done, good job.

You--and of course Fox News--can be proud of yourselves for missing the point-- yet again.

And of course the Cabinet news may well also prove a transitory piece of good news--especially if, as I've said before, the constitution is not amended to better suit Sunnis.

The death of Zarqawi is totally meaningless--unless it can somehow be used to persuade Shias to disband their militias. An open question--to say the least.

Jon Stewart noted that the main question now is whether they would perhaps look to a non-traditional source for the new Iraqi terror leader--perhaps a woman or a non-Moslem. (That's humor, Doug--don't get your knickers in a twist.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 11:58 PM

Or new Iraq terror leader--yes, I am aware Zarqawi was Jordanian. In fact the terror organzation in Iraq will be much stronger if it is headed by an Iraqi. And it's not Terror, Inc.--more like lots of terror franchises all over with tenuous--or absolutely no--loyalty to Osama--or anybody. Not to mention the continuing sectarian violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:52 AM

"Torturers are not born, they are nurtured, trained and supported. In many countries they rely on foreign governments for the tools of their trade and expertise in how to use them. Some governments are directly involved in the torture trade; others prefer to turn a blind eye. Few have shown the political will to put an end to this trade whose profits are built on the suffering of countless torture victims.

Some of the tools of the torturer's trade seem almost medieval — shackles, leg irons, thumbscrews, handcuffs and whips. However, in recent years there has been a marked expansion in the manufacture, trade and use of other kinds of technology used by security and police forces, especially electro-shock technology. New research for this report has shown that the number of companies worldwide known to be producing or supplying electro-shock equipment had risen from 30 in the 1980s to more than 130 by 2000."

Lest we forget.

from

http://www.amnestyusa.org/stoptorture/index.do

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 03:43 PM

they took a sample of Zarqawis DNA so they could clone him
and kill him a second time closer to the Midterm elections.
(thanks to John Stewart for thatone)

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 04:46 PM

Ron, Petr: Appreciate the Jon Stewart references. I no longer get to watch him and miss Daily Show terribly. At least I can download "Wait Wait Don't Tell Me" weekly.

Bruce, anyone who believes torturers are made not born has no idea of the range of human nature, nor paid attention to what little boys do with magnifying glasses, gunpowder caps, and bugs or little brothers.

Saying that the death of Zarqawi has no significance more than once in this forum is like the atheist spending a lot of time trying to convince folks in the unexistence of God.

In other words, nice to hear from ya, but can ya read the thread title?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:59 PM

Robo--

The thread title itself is meaningless--unless we are to imply that his death has an impact on the Iraq war. ( It seems reasonable to infer that this was the intent of the thread originator.)

Point is: not likely--depends on whether it can be used to persuade militias to disband---which is unlikely. Cabinet is more important--by far--and ignored by said thread originator.


"Wait, Wait" on a par with Jon Stewart? Surely you jest.

I never get a chance to see Jon Stewart the first time--just the repeat--at least a day later. But in today's (repeat) program he did have some good observations about the changing of the terrorist guard in Iraq--to expound on what I mentioned earlier.

He did say they might look outside--at non-traditional sources--perhaps the Tamil Tigers--or for somebody with organizational skills, a soprano.

I was so convinced that would make this a musical thread--as in "What's the difference between a pit bull and a soprano? Lipstick".   But Jan tells me he might well have been referring to a TV program.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:39 PM

A USA Today/Gallup poll released Tuesday found that most Americans considered the killing of al Qaeda leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi a "major achievement'' and suggested that opinion which has turned steadily against the war remains volatile.

The poll found that 51 percent of Americans still say it was a mistake to go to war in Iraq, a drop from nearly 60 percent at the end of last year. The new poll found that 48 percent believe the war is winnable, up from 39 percent in April.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:44 PM

"The war is winnable"--now there's a classically meaningless statement--remember it's the "war on terror", as we've been assured by the maladministration more than once.

When do you think "terror" is going to surrender, pray tell?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Dean
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:08 PM

"the idea that we're going to win the war in Iraq is an idea which is just plain wrong,"

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Arne
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 12:52 AM

Almost to the day that Dubya snuck in to that modern-day Elysium of Baghdad, we're set to hit the 2.5K dead mark for U.S. soldiers over there. But it won't stop there, like some climber reaching the magical plateau, easy street from there on. Nope. We'll end up with as many dead in Iraq as we had on Sept. 11th, and for no discernible purpose outside of Dubya's incompetence, arrogance, political opportunism, and "shrunken dick" syndrome.   Nope, just another three thousand more (and countless more Iraqi) senseless deaths.

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 02:19 AM

Woody - I thought we won the 'war in Iraq'. Isn't that what happened when Saddam was ousted and a new government was 'democratically' elected?

How can you win a war that you have already won?

Oh, I am so confused. Is it a war in Iraq or is it a 'war on terrorism'?

If its a 'war on terrorism', why are we fighting it in Iraq? I thought most of the terrorists were from Saudi Arabia.

...and why are we killing all those women and children?

Who cares about al-Zarqawi? The only changes he can make is in American polls. He's dead. Now can the soldiers come home?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 01:54 PM

Ron -

There ya go again. I did not say Wait Wait is on a par with Daily Show. I think that's a comparison of apples and oranges. I mentioned that I no longer see the Daily Show, and then I mentioned I can download Wait Wait. See how what people say can be turned around by those who like to make associations and conclusions and inferences out of thin air? (prob'ly not).

Love the Sopranos. you can download that, too, if you know how.

As for Zarqawi, PBS re-aired an entire Frontline show about him and his impact on the Al Qaida in Iraq and the internecine actions going on amongst the so-called insurgents (terrorists) who we are fighting there. Seemed significant to a lot of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 02:17 PM

There's no question that killing a Terrorist Leader is excellent PR for those who promote a "War On Terror". But there's little indication this was a strategic advance in any real way. He has been replaced in his organization already, as might have been predicted. The resources of the organization have not been significantly depleted. The motivation of the group has not been diluted. The organizational structure and location of the group is no better known to intell.   So why is this a major event? Because of the media coverage afforded to it?

I can only hope it is genuinely demoralizing to some of the Al Qeda-in-Iraq sub-echelons, but I kinda doubt that to be the case, and certainly not for very long.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 04:57 PM

Amos:

I think it's a major event because we all watch too much television and this is like the ending of a major supporting character on a show we can't turn off. But it matters to the show and anyone who watches it. As far as the administration goes, I think they could have overplayed it and did not, which shows they are capable of learning from the past. That's a good sign.

Robo

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:00 PM

Robo--

Whatever you say, Mr. Reagan.

You did mention "Wait, Wait" and Jon Stewart in the same paragraph. Rotten apples and wonderful oranges, in my opinion. "Wait, Wait", for lack of a better phrase, is puerile tripe-- (I like the word "tripe"). Jon Stewart is probably the best political and social satire in the US in decades. YMMV.

Re: Zarqawi: as mentioned earlier in the thread, Zarqawi had proven recently to be an embarrassment--or worse--to the insurgency. See for instance the reaction to his attack on the Jordanian hotel. At this point he's far more useful as a martyr--this was even noted by the Wall St Journal recently--with the suspicion that he was betrayed for just this reason.

PBS aired an old show about Mr. Z. I hope it helped their ratings. But, as Shania said-- that don't impress me much--(does that make this a music thread?)

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 09:25 AM

The organizational structure and location of the group is no better known to intell.   So why is this a major event? (Amos)

They have found a lot of data beneath the bodies, memory sticks and all that. Several successful raids in the last couple of days are a consequence of those finds. That makes it a major event and not alone the propaganda value of killing a leader of the enemy.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 09:49 AM

Time will tell how important it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: DougR
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 04:40 PM

But why wait, Ron? After all you have already declared it an unimportant event? That makes it so, right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 04:51 PM

I said its importance hinges on whether it can be used to persuade Shiite militias to disband. That is the single biggest obstacle to more Sunni participation in the government. They will also have to ease off on "de-Baathification"--which it appears they are starting to do--possibly using the reconciliation approach of South Africa after apartheid.

It would be refreshing if you would read carefully for once, Doug. Though it goes against your strongest beliefs--i.e. that all you need to know you can get from Fox News and the Arizona Republic (an).

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 11:03 AM

http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=12662

How Al Qaeda Lost Iraq

6/18/2006   Strategy Page

A side benefit of killing al Qaeda leader Abu Musab al Zarqawi on June 7th, was the capture of many of his working documents. Much of what these documents contained had been obtained in earlier raids, and from interrogations. But this time, American intelligence officers had an up to date record of what al Qaeda was thinking, what their plans were and, perhaps most importantly, how they thought they were doing. Zarqawi believed al Qaeda's situation was bleak, and getting worse. The main reason for that glum assessment was the growth of the Iraqi security forces (army and police), and the movement of these forces into Sunni Arab areas of central Iraq during the past year. The battle of Fallujah last Fall was the beginning of the end, and the constant pressure since then has made it more difficult for al Qaeda to plan and carry out terror attacks. The mass media found nothing newsworthy in al Qaedas declining fortunes, but Zarqawi and his lieutenants were certainly paying attention.

Interestingly, Zarqawi mentions unfavorable media coverage of al Qaeda with in Iraq, without admitting that the deaths of thousands of Iraqis by terror attacks might have anything to do with it. According to Zarqawi, those deaths would not be so harmful if it wasn't because of the way the Iraqi government propaganda made al Qaeda look like a bunch of unfeeling butchers. Zarqawi was also dismayed at the number of Sunni Arabs who were turning away from al Qaeda, and supporting the government. Zarqawi was also feeling the financial pinch, apparently from the American and Iraqi operation to shut down the smuggling across the Syrian border, and international efforts to reduce foreign funding of al Qaeda operations in general. Zarqawi was also unhappy with the growing number of foreign countries that were setting up embassies in Iraq, which made the government appear more legitimate.

Zarqawi had a plan for a comeback, which depended on increased recruiting, establishing more bomb workshops, having more of his people join the army and police (to spy, and recruit new terrorists) and to improve discipline within the ranks of al Qaeda in Iraq. All of these ideas are indicative of an organization that was falling apart.

But it gets worse, at least for Zarqawi. His "victory plan" involved instigating battles between Shia factions, between Shia and Kurds and, best of all, between the U.S. and Iran. With all of his enemies thus distracted, al Qaeda would unify the Sunni Arabs and take over Iraq. That was the plan, apparently it still is. Zarqawi believed that he could depend on media in Moslem countries, as well as anti-American media in the West, to help get the al Qaeda version of reality out. There was evidence at the June 7 bombing site, that Zarqawi kept up on Iraqi and foreign media. But he apparently didn't notice that al Qaeda was not popular at all. Zarqawi was still popular to the hard core al Qaeda fanboys, but was rapidly losing traction in the rest of the Islamic world.

Zarqawi, and his strategies, had become a liability to the other al Qaeda brass. For them, Zarqawi's death was timely, and quite useful. Zarqawi's successor faces a pretty grim situation. While the new guy appears to be another foreigner, most of al Qaeda in Iraq is staffed, and run, by Iraqi Sunni Arabs. These fellows are the radical fringe of the Iraqi Sunni Arab community, which is now largely seeking to make deals with the Iraqi government. So the new al Qaeda leadership in Iraq has to first deal with dissent within the Sunni Arab community, before turning to the larger issue of democracy and majority rule in Iraq. The Sunni Arabs make up less than twenty percent of Iraq's population. Actually, given the many (over a million) Iraqi Sunni Arabs who have fled the country in the last three years, that's probably closer to fifteen percent these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 02:50 PM

Woody--

Al Queda victory plan included, from your own just-posted article, Woody--instigating war between the US and Iran. Now who do you suppose is playing into al-Queda's hands on just this point? As Carol has pointed out elsewhere--try Mr. Bush.

Don't you even read what you yourself post? Or do you just lift it from your source without thinking? Admittedly that would fit the typical Bushite approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 10:46 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5093266.stm

Palestinian rivals 'nearing deal'

Hamas supporters demonstrate outside Palestinian parliament building in Ramallah

Rival Palestinian factions Hamas and Fatah are close to agreement on an initiative that would implicitly recognise Israel, officials say.

Senior figures have been in talks to resolve deep divisions over the move.

Hamas, which now controls the Palestinian government, refuses to recognise Israel's right to exist - in contrast to Fatah's position.

President Mahmoud Abbas has threatened to hold a referendum next month on the plan unless Hamas accepts it.

Hamas also challenges the legality of the referendum, which has been announced for 26 July.

The plan sets out formal Palestinian claims to an independent state on land occupied by Israel in 1967, and implicitly adopts a two-state solution.

The two factions have been locked in an intense power struggle since Hamas gained control of the Palestinian parliament in elections in January.

In another development, the factions have reached agreement on the division of the security forces, the Israeli Haaretz website reports.

Hamas is also under intense financial pressure, as the EU and US cut off funding after it came to power because of its stand on Israel.

But Western powers have agreed moves to release more than $120m of EU funds to support local health services and cater for the basic needs of poor Palestinians, but bypassing the Hamas government.

'Positive outlook'

The plan, known as the "prisoners' document", is based on proposals by Palestinian militants in Israeli jails.

It calls for continued resistance on lands occupied by Israel in 1967, but proposes an end to attacks inside the area internationally recognised as Israel.

Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniya - a leading Hamas figure - said in a statement that "tangible progress" had been made in the talks.

Earlier Aziz Dweik, a Hamas leader and parliament speaker said that in the coming days "we will have a new and optimistic step for our Palestinian people."

A Fatah spokesman, Tawfiq Abu Khussa, told the AFP news agency that agreement had been reached "on almost all of the issues in the prisoners initiative and things are looking very positive."

Another senior Fatah figure, Abdullah Ifranji, also predicted agreement would be reached in the coming days, saying: "There is an agreement on the document with reservations, but the movement is positive."

The Palestinian parliament which is dominated by Hamas will hold a debate on the referendum issue this week.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 12:52 AM

Why are you discussing Hamas and Fatah on a thread about al-Zarqawi?

I am beginning to think you have absolutely no thoughts of your own and can only cut and paste (even when it has nothing to do with the topic).

Start your own thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: DougR
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 08:02 PM

I have been mulling in my mind who is the rudist poster on the Mudcat, Ron Davies, or Greg F.? Although it's a close race you, Ron, I believe have the edge. Just my opinion of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 08:40 PM

What, I'm not even in the running for "rudist" (sic) poster? Well, fuck you, too. :(

Anyways, I don't think anyone's mentioned this lately, but there was a little girl killed in the blast, after all. Possibly Zarqawi's daughter, which would, of course, make her at least half terrorist, and thus, like, fair game, or some shit. Do you hope that she "died a very painful death, too, Doug? And do you wish that she could've "suffered a bit longer before entering the gates of hell," as well? Huh, Doug?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Arne
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 10:04 PM

I feel slighted as well, Lepus.

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 11:33 PM

HEY, I WON!!!!! First time I ever won anything.

But, contrary to usual practice, I'd like to say there is plenty of room at the top. I'm sure Doug can come up with trophies for anybody who feels the process wasn't fair. I swear I didn't do anything Abramoff didn't do.

But at least it does mean that Doug is actually starting to read posts--big progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Arne
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:02 AM

I dunno, maybe I'll settle for a Preznitential Medal of Freedom.

I'd note that DougR's maligning of my best efforts is quite rude in itself, but not up to professional standards though....

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:34 AM

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/2006/06/forward-togetherday-2.html

Thursday, June 15, 2006

Forward Together...Day 2
Baghdad sounded quieter than usual today, and the sounds of bombs retracted before the tide of official announcements that took the news headlines replacing the usual bloody scenes....

.......I agree that the raid that killed Zarqawi led us to some significant findings and revealed a lot of information but it didn't reveal everything, so I agree with Mr. Rubaie that the end of Zarqawi marked the beginning of al-Qaeda's end in Iraq and I do believe the government has a golden opportunity to deal with al-Qeada and its allies as the death of Zarqawi left his organization and followers in a state of shock and huge suspicion that the network's lines have been infiltrated, and I feel that most of them are behaving clumsily out of fear from being already identified and located. Of course this will make their moves more noticeable and will eventually expose them, that's if they're not already exposed.
Moreover, the government is sending vague messages through the local media stating that some of the documents seized near Zarqawi included names of well known political figures and I think this kind of leaked information is choking the involved elements.

In fact some people here are suggesting a link between the arrest of the head of the city council in Kerbala and the information found in those documents building these speculations on the nature and timing of the arrest, some are expecting similar arrest to follow against even more important figures.
That's what we're going to find out soon but in general these announcement and leaks stand as part of a necessary psychological war that-if performed well-can further lower the morale of the terrorists and their allies.

One of the most significant things about this operation is that we did not see any serious rejection or opposition to it from any of the influential parties or clerics which indicates that there's a general desire to back this operation or at least let it pass without complications and accept it as a means to get out of the deteriorated security situation.
Maybe that's because this particular operation doesn't give an impression that it's directed against a certain segment or sect as the case would be if the operation was conducted in Najaf, Sadr city or Ramadi for example.

The current feeling in Baghdad is that the operation is in the benefit of everyone and this is a good advantage that should be used to achieve success.

Posted by Mohammed @ 23:36

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 10:10 AM

I have been mulling in my mind who is the rudist poster on the Mudcat...

Suggest you glance in the mirror, Douggie-Boy.

But as long as we're taking nominations, how about a "Most Ignorant, Inane and Self-Satisfied" category for which Douggie, Old Fart & Wordy are pretty much running neck and neck lately. Winner to get the Mudcat Hubris Award.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 03:02 PM

"Al Queda victory plan included, from your own just-posted article, Woody--instigating war between the US and Iran. Now who do you suppose is playing into al-Queda's hands on just this point? As Carol has pointed out elsewhere--try Mr. Bush."


This has got to be one of the most idiotic statements made on this thread yet.

Are you saying, Ron, since one of al-qaida's stated goals is to provoke a war between US and Iran, then the current tensions that are there are a direct result of Zarqawi and his murderous gang?

It seems to me that the bearded ding-a-ling that's in charge over there now in Iran has had a lot to do with it. His saber rattling and statements that Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth has done more than I think Zarqawi could ever be capable of doing. Afterall, we're talking about a man who couldn't even figure out how to shoot a gun without being shown how.

Now Ron and Greg....I know that Zarqawi was your hero. He was your current excuse to support your "we're losing agenda". But don't worry. There will be someone else to take his place. He may be just as good as Zarqawi but only time will tell. The only thing is...we will find him and kill him too.

Afterall, that is what this war is designed for now. To hunt down terrorists and kill them. We've gotten rid of Saddam and a new government is now in place. Now we can get back to killing terrorists like what is being done in Afghanistan and places elsewhere.

Even Zarqawi's own documents and others found before state that they want to take advantage of what's going on in the US now. What's that, you ask? It's the constant complaining and whining that is being done by people on the left comparing this action to Vietnam or the constant moaning and bitching about "Let's bring the troops home". The more bitching and whining that is done by you and your crew does nothing but build up their confidence and compassion to continue their killing. It's really a sad thing when your message and the terrorists message are the same one.

Here's a novel idea. Why don't you try supporting OUR troops and supporting OUR cause in this mission. Stop agreeing with the terrorists and keep insisting that we cut and run before the job is done. That's what we did in Mogadishu and look what's going on there today. Where's the peace? Do you really want to go to bed at night knowing that if we do the same in Iraq then the same might happen there? Or do you not care? Has your hatred for this administration clouded your vision when it comes to people in other countries?

If the terrorists want to go to Iraq, then we'll stay there and kill them. If they want to go back to Afghanistan, then we'll kill them there. Wherever they go, they will be hunted down and killed if they choose to stay the current course of action that they are on and keep killing Americans.

They are, afterall, of the same group that hi-jacked four commercial airliners and took down two of our high profile buildings and one government structure and killed 3000+ people in two of our large cities on a sunny September morning. Do you remember that? It seems as if you conveniently forgot where this all started.

Up until that point, every time Al-qaida attacked us somewhere, what was the line?

"We will find the ones responsible for the this atrocious act and we will bring them to justice."

Everytime this phrase was said, people cheered and took to heart that something would be done. Up until then, nothing ever was....oh yeah wait, something was done...Clinton bombed an aspirin factory. That made a difference.

Now we are doing something. We are hunting down the freaks that subscribe to this philosophy and finally bringing them to justice.

Are you upset because we're not slapping them on the hand and asking them to not ever do nasty things like that again and instead landing 500 pound bombs on their dining room tables? Would you rather us just stand by and take it on the chin after every attack and continue to provide lip service to the American people as to why we're not going after the bad guys?

Come on Ron and Greg. I really hope that you two are bigger men than that. I really hope that you appreciate the country that you are living in and want to see it last and lead the world whether they like us or not.


If not, it seems as if the terrorists over in Iraq need instructions on how to shoot a gun. Maybe you should go show them. You're arguing for the same things, anyhow.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 03:06 PM

Now come on guys...I want to know how you really feel instead of personally attacking me and pointing out how I never post in the music threads.


Quite frankly, that's getting a little old and tired.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 06:38 PM

Hubby--


"old and tired"--you misspelled "true"--now why would that be?

Also I invite you to produce any evidence--as distinguished from your usual spewings-- that Zarqawi was a hero to anybody on Mudcat.

Now see if you can follow this--it may be too complex for your giant brain to grasp.

1)   al-Queda wants the US to attack Iran.
2)   Bush-- (supported by you, as I recall)-- is showing signs he plans to do so.
therefore
3)   Bush, by carrying out an attack on Iran, would be carrying out al-Queda's wishes. It makes no difference that he would not be "taking dictation" from al-Queda. He would be giving al-Queda exactly what it wants--a war between the US and Iran.   

Is that simple enough for you to master?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 09:12 AM

Ron-

You're playing into this asshole's hands by answering him.

Same thing as "debating" a Holocaust denier- you're only legitimizing his vomit.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 09:23 AM

Ron,

To borrow your own logic,


1)   al-Queda wants the US to abandon Iraq
2)   Many liberals here are demanding a pull-out from Iraq.
therefore
3)   Manay liberals here, by demanding a pullout form Iraq, would be
carrying out al-Queda's wishes. It makes no difference that they would not be "taking dictation" from al-Queda. They would be giving al-Queda exactly what it wants--a pullout from Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 09:24 AM

All this quibble about Iran and nukes paralells the same bullshite we went thru with Iraq.

Everybody says Iran has them or will soon have them but they are too chicken shit to do anything about it. Then when someone has the balls to do something about it, they are called a liar if the nukes are not there.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 10:48 AM

from another thread...


"If there is a 1% chance that my theoretical grandchildren, due to our actions, might not get to live on a planet that is fit for purpose, thats a chance I am unwilling to take. "

Of course, if that was about Iran using nuclear weapons, it is required to be 100% before any action can be considered.

Like Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 01:45 PM

That's classic, BB!


It's all about consistency. Not just latching onto every negative piece of info (whether true or not) to advance an agenda.



Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 10:43 PM

The only problem is BB is (as usual) dead wrong. A pullout from Iraq would not in fact be "al-Queda's wishes". Al-Queda (Osama) hopes we stay there --and suffer the death of 1,000 cuts--with our soldiers being picked off by twos and threes---- forever.

And not only that, even the Bush "team" realizes this. BB and Hubby must be 2 of the last (literate?) people left who don't realize this.

The Bush regime --desperately-- also wants a pullout from Iraq---but wants to declare victory (again) before doing so. They realize the bloom has been off the rose a good long time now---Bush's allegedly virtually bloodless victory (US blood, anyway)--soured right quick--and the steady trickle of US and UK coffins from Iraq continues. Pointing this out is not, as you oh-so-reasonable Bushites like to picture it, sympathizing with Osama. It's just stating facts. So sorry if they're not to your liking.

At this point "victory" for the Bush regime can only be an Iraqi government strong enough to not need US military assistance. First question is how long it will take to get to that stage--if Iraq ever reaches it. Second question is how many dead Coalition (read US and UK) troops it will take to get there.

It is also true that it would be Osama's fondest hope that the US would start a war with Iran, as Carol and I--and others--have said over and over.

And it's obvious why Osama wants us both in Iran and Iraq. Anybody who likes to stir up trouble--and that's his MO for sure--any argument there?--needs a bogeyman, as Bobert has pointed out. And the US, as embodiment of the rich, decadent West, is the perfect villain. So the more Moslems the US attacks, the better for Osama.

If you don't believe this, please tell us exactly why--as distinguished from your usual--classic Bushite approach--of smearing anybody who doesn't agree with you as terrorist sympathizers. How about some logic--for once?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 12:54 AM

There was an ancient time when people thought that what they saw was just something that evil spirts made them see. The reality was not what they saw but something completely different.

Some of the people here, infatuated with their superior intelligence, are still effected by the mentality of that age.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 01:12 AM

http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/1-0&fp=449ad5fbca80fe9c&ei=OCSaROD8L4uOwQHqoLmBBg&url=http%3A//www.businessday.co.za/articles/topstories.aspx%3FID%3DBD4A205662&cid=0

In a tape aired on Arab television in April, Osama Bin Laden denounced the United States and Europe for cutting off funds to the Hamas-led Palestinian government, accusing them of leading a "Zionist" war on Islam, and urged followers to fight any U.N. peacekeeping force in Sudan.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 06:49 AM

Ron,

"A pullout from Iraq would not in fact be "al-Queda's wishes". Al-Queda (Osama) hopes we stay there --and suffer the death of 1,000 cuts--with our soldiers being picked off by twos and threes---- forever."

This is a debatable point. The stated intent of al-Queda is to drive the US out of Iraq.


"as distinguished from your usual--classic Bushite approach--of smearing anybody who doesn't agree with you as terrorist sympathizers."

"(as usual) dead wrong"... "of the last (literate?) people"...


Hardly conducive to a reasonable discussion. Would you care to show me ONE case where I have stated that those who disagree with me are terrorist sympathizers?

If you do not like the logic I presented, perhaps you should consider NOT using it upon those YOU disagree with.



BTW, why is it that even a small chance of danger from global warming justifies a complete change in our society, with the attendent upheaval and economic destruction, while a perceived threat of nuclear war requires overwhelming proof before ANY action can be done?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:29 AM

Anything is "debatable," breadedbruce. The fact that something is "debatable" doesn't make all opinions on the matter equally valid. In this case, Ron has facts, logic, and the majority of experts of the subject on his side. Perhaps if he buried you in a barrage of lengthy copy-and-pastes, you'd understand this.

Anyways: Of course al-Qaeda wants the US in Iraq. And of course they're going to announce that it's their goal is to drive the US out of Iraq. American soldiers in an Arab/Muslim country is great PR for al-Qaeda, proving everything they've claimed for years about us. And a goal like "driving out the Crusaders" is a wonderfully effective recruitment tool. Same sort of deal the US military did after 9/11. This is all common knowledge. Yanno, what everyone knows.

Go ahead. Say something like "Al-Qaeda is a liberal invention meant to advance the gay/global warming agenda in Catholic schools!" Or "I say the Earth is a mystical cube of angel-dander, and 'evolution' is a homosexual-Muslim plot!" Or, more likely, a bunch of copy-and-pasted articles saying so. You're wrong about most everything, and you're not convincing anyone. No-one here is that fucking stupid.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: DougR
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 08:03 PM

Gee, I don't know. Maybe Greg F. IS the rudist. I just can't decide.
Such an awesome responsibility.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 05:30 PM

Truth is that they tried to take Zarqawi out years ago but Bush stonewalled it. He needed an enemy to promote his Iraqi occupation. He hasn't found bin Laden and is unlikely to because one: bin Laden may already be dead and two: Bush has stated that he doesn't know where bin Laden is and doesn't care or think about him.

The Zarqawi event is a red-herring.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 12:39 PM

"Truth is that they tried to take Zarqawi out years ago but Bush stonewalled it."


Man, I'm still feeling the wind off of that spin. Whew! If you want to play that game then, here goes....


I guess none of this would be happening then, if Clinton would have taken bin Laden from the Sudan when he was offered as well.

We can play games like that all day long. The fact still remains that we are cleaning up what has been refused to be taken care of by administrations from both sides of the aisle in the past.

Ron, quit making excuses. You're making yourself look more inept as the days go by.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 02:47 PM

OK Hubby, simple question. No need to provide a tome of copy-pastes or your patented dodging technique. Perhaps you can muster the brain power to actually answer it.

The more Moslem countries we attack, the better for Osama.

True or false?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 06:08 PM

Hubby, Clinton is the only president that tried to take out bin Laden. Bush didn't and ignored him. Clinton is the only president that recognized bin Laden as a threat. bin Laden as a threat was discovered during the Clinton Administration. I doubt very much whether Bill Clinton would have let 911 happen. As it was, he uncovered and thwarted quite a few plots such as the attempt to blow up International Airport in Los Angeles.

The facts are not game-playing.

Ron, Osama (if he is still alive, which might be doubtful since he requires dialysis) is rejoicing at the ineptness of this Administration. He doesn't have to do another 911. Bush's incompetence is making his job easier.

Osama (if he is alive) is a dangerous man because he knows the Bush vulnerabilities and is taking advantage of them daily.

Unfortunately, brutal fanaticism does not necessarilly equate with stupidity. But it's necessary for someone in our government to really know how it works. Bush doesn't have a clue.

All ya' gotta' do is listen to the words of bin Laden. His thing is that he doesn't want foreign troops dictating religious views on Muslims. It's that simple. He doesn't have the capacity to dominate the world economically or militarilly. He's winning recruits by default.


Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 09:06 PM

"The more Moslem countries we attack, the better for Osama."

"True or false?"


Ron,

You are so one-sided that it's really starting to concern me.


Let's address your premise first.

Let's break this question down.

We don't and didn't attack countries because they were "Moslem". It just so happens, that's where the terrorists are.

Why do you climb mountains? Because they're there.

Were you ever "it" in hide-n-seek? It's sort of the same situation here. You don't wait around and wait for the people that's hiding to come and find you.


Next is, who the hell cares what Osama thinks?

I know I don't. Should we not be over there fighting just because Osama wants us to leave? Is that really what you believe? Hell, Hitler wanted us to leave. Mussolini wanted us to leave. Emporer Hirohito wanted us to leave. Should we have left those countries too just because they wanted us to leave or do you think that the world would be better off if they had stayed in power?

Remember, this is the man who masterminded the killing of over 3000 people and the destruction of numerous buildings and aircraft all in one day. I don't think that the vast majority of the people that were directly affected by those 3000+ (some of which were muslim) losses really gives a rat's ass about what Osama thinks.

Why do you care so much about what he thinks?

Just who's side are you on?


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 09:53 AM

Hubby--just answer the question. Or I will be forced to the conclusion that you are not smart enough to do so. One word answer will suffice:   yes or no.

And without your, also patented, Bushite smearing of people who don't agree with you as unpatriotic.

Thank you so much.

It's such a pleasure debating with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 11:11 AM

Ron-

You're playing into this asshole's hands by answering him.

Same thing as "debating" a Holocaust denier- you're only legitimizing his vomit.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 12:47 PM

I'm going to see if he can defend his position--without smearing those who disagree as traitors.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 12:16 PM

"Why do you care so much about what he thinks?" from Hubby.

If Bush had paid a little more attention to the way bin laden thinks, we wouldn't be in this mess. In fact, if the military strategists had paid any attention to the way people in the Middle East, think, he would never have invaded Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 12:26 PM

Believe me dianavan,


The majority of the people in the middle east DO NOT think like bin Laden thinks.

That's where you're making your mistake.


Ron,

You have my answer. So force yourself to whatever conclusion you have to. It doesn't change the fact that you're wrong.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 05:34 PM

Zawahiri Vows to Take Revenge for Zarqawi

Published: Sunday, June 25, 2006
zaman.com


Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden's top lieutenant, vowed revenge for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who was killed as the as Iraqi leader of al-Qaeda.

Referring to Zarqawi as the 'Lord of Martyrs,' Zawahiri threatened George Bush, President of the United States, with revenge for the murder of Zarqawi, until the last al-Qaeda member left alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 06:30 PM

well there you go, Ron- I think we've both proved our points conclusively- not that they were ever in doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 08:14 PM

Ron Davies: do you still beat your wife? Your companion? Your children?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 09:18 PM

Hubby - I did not say that bin laden and the people of the Middle East think the same way.

I stick by my statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 10:07 PM

Well Doug, anytime you and Hubby feel the need for confession, you can always tell us if you are still beating your wives. But to be honest, I don't really think we have much interest in your domestic problems.

However, to return to the thread topic, if you Bushites would for once put your brains in gear, you would realize that nobody is trying to please Osama. But if you advocate attacking Moslem countries, you are pleasing him--and helping create more terrorism all over the globe. In fact, that is exactly what I, as a registered Republican, told the White House call-in line, just prior to Bush's unbelievably idiotic and falsely justified attack on Iraq.

Not having learned anything--you Bushites seem to not be the quickest studies-- you seem bound and determined to repeat your criminally stupid blunder by attacking Iran.

Just brilliant.

Sorry if I'm being too subtle for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 04:53 PM

A few more questions:

The more leaders of Al Queda we kill- the better or worse for Ossama?

The more middle eastern countries that become democratic the better or worse for Ossama?

The more times Michael Moore, Gavin Newsome, John Kerry, Jerry springer, Randy Rhoads, Howard Dean, Dixie Chicks, Barbra Streisand, Sadaam Hussain speak- the better or worse for Republicans?

The more stories the Al Queda Tip Sheet (NY Times) prints- the better or worse for the rest of us?

The more weight Al Gore gains-the better or worse for global warming?

The more Ossamaites who put their hatred of Bush over the country- the more or less books Ann Coulter sells?

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood-does that give us more or less renewable energy?

The answer my friends is blowing in the wind, the answer is blowing in the wind

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 06:33 PM

Talk about the definition of nugatory....

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 08:33 PM

So, Larry K--you have no idea of the difference between the effect on Moslem terrorism of an attack on a Moslem country-- and the burning question of how much wood could a woodchuck....?

Based on the quality of your thought as revealed on Mudcat so far, I have to say I'm not really surprised.

That explains a lot of Bushite behavior. It's certainly true that Mr. Bush is far more capable of grappling with the second issue than the first.


If Mr. Bush and his supporters--like your good self?--had only been restricted to weighty issues involving woodchucks, the world would have been far better off.

Thanks so much for the insight.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 10:41 PM

Now wait just a durn minute! Are you tryin' to say that matters involving woodchucks aren't important ??

marmota monax would beg to differ!

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 10:55 AM

Greg F - definitely the rudist -
LR would be second
Ron a close third -

I'm new here but the sheer viciousness of the personal attacks from the above are surprising!

Is this normal for here?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 01:00 PM

Wow, so someone besides DougR mis-spells "rudest" as "rudist?" Must be contagious...

And I'm far ruder than Greg. Way the fuck.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 01:19 PM

Guest......You aint seen NUTHIN' yet...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 04:40 PM

A rudist is kinda like a nudist...with attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 11:18 PM

"sheer viciousnesss of the personal attacks"--well, I'd say that accusing somebody of support for brutal terrorists, enemies of the US,--something along the lines of "I know that Zarqawi was your hero", to pick a purely theoretical example-- qualifies as a personal attack--perhaps even of greater magnitude than an accusation of not using logic or not reading carefully.

But somehow I think all the participants in this discussion can survive the unpredecented horrendous attacks on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 12:37 AM

How dare you mock someone's illiteracy, Ron? Especially someone as sensitive as Doug. You are truly the rudistest of all! And say "hi" to Osama, commie.

Anyways, good to see that the "War" continues to be over now that Zarqawi and his possible loin-spawn are dead. Knowing this, I can now sleep...

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 08:44 AM

"I'd say that accusing somebody of support for brutal terrorists, enemies of the US"


Thank you, Ron. You have finally admitted that they are our enemies.

What do you do with your enemies? You fight them. You try to kill them.

Where?

Wherever you can find them.

Whenever you can find them.

So why do you keep on insisting that we "cut and run" and withdraw from Iraq?. Isn't that where the enemies are?


Why turn around and go in the other direction when we know where they are?

Can you answer THAT question?


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 08:59 AM

Read it again, Bubby, slowly, carefully, and this time for comprehension:

he's talking about accusing people who don't agree with your BuShite bullshit of being enemies of the U.S.

Got it?

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 09:45 AM

Hubby, you seem to misunderstand a principle of war. Wars are always won by those most committed to winning. That is fundamental. Overwhelming force will always fail, eventually, against an enemy more committed to the priniciple they are fighting for. Examples: Vietnam, Afganistan against the Russians, Ireland, and I could go on and on. We can't ultimately win in Iraq, because the guy that started the war did so on bogus terms. There were no weapons of mass destruction, the guy had nothing to do with 9-11, he was not involved in the war on terrorism, he did not pose a threat to us. This President squandered the good will of the people of this country by going in for show, with an ill conceived plan, undermanned, and underbudgeted due to ill conceived tax cuts. He squandered the precious lives of our young warriors for a war with a false purpose. Now he is changing the predicate that he fights the war on. And the result of all this is that he has a country strongly divided. Which means that the committment necessary to "win" this war is not there. Sound familiar? Think "the 60's".

You can kill all the Zarqawi's you want, but the outcome will be the same. Another will step in..... and another ......... and another. Until we come up with some bogus reason for pulling out, just as we had for going in.

The real shame is that we had the good will of the world, and the determination of the people of this country, to attack and destroy the terrorists who were responsible for 9-11 and other attacks. Had we stayed the course and hunted Bin laden in Afganistan, this President would be in good shape. And the world would be safer and more united. This is why one must elect statesmen and not egomaniacal and misguided guys like this.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 10:43 AM

"Read it again, Bubby, slowly, carefully, and this time for comprehension:

he's talking about accusing people who don't agree with your BuShite bullshit of being enemies of the U.S.

Got it?"



No Greg,

You're wrong, as usual.

I see that your comprehension skills are no better than your debating skills.

So if I go by your standards then the "brutal terrorists" he mentioned in his post aren't enemies of the US?


They either are or they aren't.


If they are then why are you and Ron so against us killing them just because of what bin Laden thinks about it?

If they're not, then that says volumes about what you and Ron think about what happened on 9/11.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 11:40 AM

Pointless. No neurons firing whatsoever.

Plus, things are rarely, if ever, completely black or white; life isn't that simplistic and/or made up of BuShite Sound Bites AKA "you're either with us or an enemy of the US.

Time for me to move on to something more productive, like pounding salt down a rathole. Engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent gets old pretty fast.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 12:02 PM

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA -

OK LR - You are not the rudest. And I am sure that the folks will survive the vicious attacks. Humans are a resilient group if nothing else.

I'll put my Dos Centavos here just for shits and giggles - Bush's failure is a genetic issue. His dad was worthless and there just is no arguing with poor genetics. And his second problem is that worthless sack of manure Rumsfeld. So in total I'd say this is the worst war administration in history.

I don't know if the war is right or wrong. I'm way to small a fish to even begin to comprehend why an oil magnate would want to fight in Iraq - or why the #2 guy has Haliburton Brown Root and Knudsen doing the contract work there. In Vietnam it was the same names doing the contract work. Wait do I detect a link?

Anyway - do you all have a spell checker? I am terrible without one - too frickin funny -

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 11:50 PM

In an effort to clarify-- the "brutal terrorists" are in fact enemies of the US. But, Hubby, your attitude--and Bush's attitude--are only creating more brutal terrorists. Bush needlessly and stupidly attacked Iraq. You supported this. That doesn't say much for your mental processes--or his.

It was obvious to me--just from reading the Wall St Journal coverage on Iraq before the invasion--that Bush had not proven his case--in fact he had no evidence to justify the invasion. And as I said earlier, I called the White House comment line to tell him exactly why it was a criminally stupid idea--mostly because of the terrorists who would be springing up due to the broadcast of pictures of dead Iraqi women and children.

Bushites are now threatening to attack Iran. If they do, there will be more terrorists. Neither you nor any other Bushite has come up with one shred of evidence to counter this assertion.

I'm still-with the patience of Job--waiting for you to do so.

You're a master at smearing as terrorist sympathizers those who disagree with you. Not very good at anything else.

As Mick points out, virtually the whole civilized world stood with the US directly after 9-11.   I supported the attack on Afghanistan and the hunt for Osama. Why, pray tell, is he now Osama Bin Forgotten? Bush has now squandered a great opportunity--and alienated most of the world in doing it.

And why any sentient being--which we hope includes you--supports him is beyond me.

Just start thinking--instead of regurgitating half-digested Limbaugh and Fox News drivel.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:19 PM

When Ron Davies smeared "Wait Wait Don't Tell Me" one of the funniest, best natured, and wittiest radio shows in the United States today, that didn't say much to his rudeness, just his sensitivity and ability to dicriminate.

Meanwhile, Osama has released a tape praising al-Zarqawi and beseeching the Americans to give his body back to his family. I wonder where his remains have been all this time and what stories will be made up about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 09:44 PM

Robo-

I think you know the word "smear" doesn't apply when discussing taste.

Also, do you know what YMMV stands for? I appended that to my verdict on "Wait Wait" and Jon Stewart, as you will see if you read carefully. I stand by my statement on "Wait Wait". You don't agree--fine. I never claimed it was anything but my opinion.

Actually, I'll have to throw myself on the mercy of the court and confess I'm not an unbiased observer in this. I have a hidden agenda here. I'm convinced "Wait Wait" displaced either "My Word" or "My Music"--or both-- on public radio in my area--and both programs are so superior to "Wait Wait" that the mind boggles. (Again, YMMV). It did not speak well for American taste to have "Wait Wait "drive out either of the others. To my mind, "My Music" is the best radio program ever made--I learned so much from it, the stories were so wonderful, the wit was absolutely delightful, it was so much fun--especially to try to guess the components of the medleys--I was usually a total disaster at trying to do it. John Amis, Frank Muir, Dennis Norden--I can't recall the last member of the panel--it's been too long--but they were all just perfect. I would have been happy to hear repeats of it every Sunday forever. Any program even possibly thought complicit in its disappearance will be forever a deep-dyed villain to me.



To return to topic--- Osama is now calling Mr. Z a "lion of jihad", as I recall. As the WSJ noted earlier, he's far more useful now to the insurgency as a martyr than as the loose cannon he had become.. Was he betrayed on purpose? Who knows? It still remains to be seen it his death will help the "war on terror" in any but an ephemeral way. So far, as per Shania (as I said earlier)--it don't impress me much.

Subject: RE: BS: Bye Bye Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 12:28 AM

Exactly, Ron. And bin Laden asks for the US and Jordan to return Zarqawi's body to his family for a proper burial, which, of course, he knows will never happen. He'll be dumped in some anonymous hole in the desert. So, besides being rid of the schmuck, and then getting to praise his fallen "lion" in the press, Osama gets to howl with indignation when the body is, effectively, desecrated. A stunning victory for al Qaeda, in every way.

---Lepus Rex