BS: The Fighting Irish

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 06:18 AM

You did not clearly define this. I only remember the dead of my nation.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:24 AM

well you work it out keith. How do you reckon a war memorial to the the American dead would go down in Iraq at the present.

What you are suggesting is that the Irish should have funded a memorial to british army members, whilst the black and tans were still about their merry work. It was never going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:33 AM

The war touched about every family in Ireland.
I doubt that the ordinary people would have objected to a memorial.
Most would have welcomed it.
It was just the politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:43 AM

My family suffered losts in the great Irish double cross war, that's what many remember. Promises to get them into the war and the double cross on both sides.

"Most would have welcomed it" Again we see the difference of someone on the ground here and someone elsewhere guessing.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:54 AM

Neither of us was on the ground then Sweeney.
You are on the ground now and should know that there was general approval for the memorial in Dublin.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 08:11 AM

Like any conflict now out of living memory, people tend to read "the official memoirs". When you read what school children over here get to read regarding the events in British published text books. As the subject is now on the school curriculum.

Fortunately local schools are glad to avail of my knowledge of Irish history. Always willing to pass on local accounts of those that were there and their views on both both wars.

My contribution to society.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 08:26 AM

Those children are lucky to get a balanced view of events from you sweeney.
Can you give any examples of mistakes in the books?

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 08:44 AM

Where did I say "mistakes in books " ?

Any of the books I ever saw in schools gave a cut and dry view, king and country and the like.

Yes I also feel it's good for the kids to get my balanced viewpoint. We must see that local knowledge and history are brought into the subject.

Always willing to help, ah that's just me I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 08:47 AM

Your Minister Of Education would be proud of you.
Have you seen Marty recently?

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 08:51 AM

You, of course, are referring to the DULY ELECTED Minister of Education, Martin McGuinness? The same Martin McGuinness who has been trying very hard in the face of Loyalist provocation, to pursue political solutions to the problems? Just wondering.......

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 09:42 AM

Yes I agree with you. I try to do a good job. He's fine, met him in
An Chúirt Hotel in Gaoth Dobhair a few weeks ago. He's heading for Nice in a few weeks. I was there a few months back. Lucky man living the millionaire lifestyle, then again he is one !

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: GUEST,Taffy
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 10:42 AM

Jesus, Littleweedrummer, all this talk about fighting for England etcera! Don't you know a lot of people thought this country was called Britain with a British parliament? England is not a nation state and never was after 1707. It's no wonder us Welsh and the Scots are sick of your imperialist and blind assumption that England was the country that 'we' fought for. The last war was against dictatorship and imperialism. Get grip on history.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 10:47 AM

British parliament sits in London. British ministers, mostly English making the rule of law. Oath taken to a English Queen.
Yes see your point here Taffy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 10:49 AM

A very important lesson for the Irish in America, Taffy. In fact, for all Yanks.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 11:39 AM

Actually, most of our ministers are Scottish!

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 12:42 PM

Heard on radio today, announcement of acceptance of a gay Orange lodge to form in Belfast has been rejected. It was to be allowed up until today. They called the act un christianly. Bet the old school are turning in their graves !

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Les from Hull
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 12:57 PM

Out 'beloved' Prime Minister is Scottish.

I'm not sure why the Queen is English - she comes from a long line of Germans, but wasn't her mam mainly Scottish?

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: GUEST,Taffy
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 02:21 PM

Her mam was born and raised in England. She had a sister who was mentally ill but was locked away up in Scotland. The royal family has never been English: Danish, French, Tudor (Welsh), Stewart (Scottish), German up to the present day. They only changed their name to Windsor during the first world war as the Kaiser was a cousin and an embarrassment. Mountbatten is just Battenberg anglicised.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 02:59 PM

So good German blood in them all, even old mountbatty, and him running about for all those years swinging his medals ! Should be on the British who helped Hitler thread !

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 03:35 PM

Except that he earned the medals fighting against Hitler!

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 06:25 PM

And what happened to him?

Perhaps it is time for us all to forget and to move on?

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 03:36 AM

It may have been a rhetorical question, but this
is what happened to him.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 04:10 AM

Shambles, hope your not asking Keith to move on ? That would be impossible !

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 04:42 AM

It is OK for others to raise these subjects, but if I respond or comment on them, then I must be stuck in the past?

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 04:56 AM

The Seeds Of More

All around the tears were falling
As they waved young men goodbye
For brave, they hear their country calling
For the cause prepared to die

Soon, they'll return home to 'Blighty'
For they're sure to turn the tide
With the help of God almighty
Who they're told is on their side

No place for the faint hearted
Off to the war to end all wars
But nothing's solved, when wars are started
They only sow the seeds of more

Back to a home that's fit for heroes
Never to go to war again
But for the ruling families, in their death throes
The world will never be the same

For the Empire and it's dominions
For it's the whole world they're to save
But was it worth the lives of millions
To ensure Britannia, rules the waves?

No place for the faint hearted
Off to the war to end all wars
But nothing's solved, when wars are started
They only sow the seeds of more

Those that kept the home fires burning
Watch as dreams all fall to dust
But the lesson's there for learning
Take care where, you place your trust

A trigger pulled in Sarajevo
Loaded at the treaty of Versailles
Now fires another salvo
Do another fifty million die?

No place for the faint hearted
Off to the war to end all wars
But nothing's solved, when wars are started
They only sow the seeds of more

Roger Gall 1994

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 05:46 AM

The Mountbattens owned Classiebawn Castle and it's sprawling estate in County Silgo. He was married to Edwina Ashley a Decendent of the notorious Palmerson family who came to Silgo from England.

The Mountbattens, like the Ashleys, were absentees. Their visits created no stir among villagers, who were well used to visitors of all types. When the Mountbattens were in residence they insisted on flying the Union Jack from the roof of the house.

"Why shouldn't we fly it, it is our property" the lady of the house told a local newspaper !

The Boy Scouts who often camped in the woods on castle grounds flew the tricolor over their camp.

"Lady Mountbatten saw the tricolor and complained to them that it shouldn't be flown on their property" It had to come down.

Given the scale of the conflict a few miles down the road in Northern Ireland, it was almost inevitable that this grandson of Queen Victoria, retired Admiral of the Fleet, one time Commander of Allied Forces in Southeast Asia, last Viceroy of India, First Sea Lord, and Earl of Burma would be a prime target. Mountbatten's estate manager, Patrick O'Grady, raised questions with the Gardai about the Earl's safety. Mountbatten himself scorned a security presence, saying that he "was used to giving orders, not taking them, leave me alone"

Who might have wished to harm Mountbatten? In addition to the IRA, he was not favored by such bodies as "The League of Empire Loyalists." Who hated his views on partition and the fact he rented property to the Jesuits." Many felt he used a young local boy called Paul Maxwell aged 16 as a shield. He steered the boat for him and Mountbatten felt safe because he had this child on board. Sadly he was killed in the explosion. Locals still feel anger about this.


The mists of time close and leave no trace of those bloody event of 25 years ago. It's a pity you can't too Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 05:52 AM

As keith said, he did not bring it up.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 05:56 AM

Ah, hello.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 03:36 AM

It may have been a rhetorical question, but this
is what happened to him.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:21 AM

It may have been a rhetorical question,

It was.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:25 AM

Correct.
Notice I used the pronoun "him"
That is because others had already brought Mountbatten into the discussion by name.
Keep watching me though. I may be just waiting my chance.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:38 AM

Chance for what exactly ?

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 08:32 AM

'I WILL WAIT MY CHANCE'

When winter snows are falling through a quiet sky, I'll wait my chance.

when in our darkest hour I'll still be here, for each day I wait my chance.

Further along life's road I stand in a timeless world just beyond your sight, and still I'll wait my chance.

I will never go away you know or leave you all alone. For some fine day I will return and then, I'll take my chance.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 08:51 AM

I like that, Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: GUEST,William Frazer
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 11:23 AM

Having been told about this site I cannot start to imagine how so many republicans mass together on one site under a hidden site name that is nothing more than a mouthpiece for republican murders. I have worked all my adult life to bring peace and justice to the decent people of Ulster. Clearly you have on idea of what the republicans did in Ulster. If you want to read the truth about events over the past 30 years visit our site at www.victims.org.uk and read our stories for a change. We are known as F.A.I.R. Please view and sign our guestbook on your visit.
Thank you
William Frazer

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 10:57 AM

Bumbling Englishman.
A dream - Sung to the tune of a Rambling Irishman

There was a bumbling Englishman,
Ambition in him burning.
He'd seen all those 'Riverdancing' shows,
And he became determined.
He bought him a fiddle of great renown,
And it cost him lots of 'fivers'.
He vowed he play that fiddle too,
Just like Eileen Ivers.

He went and sold his guitar,
Sold his guitar, sold it to his big brother Andy.

Eileen could do no wrong in his eyes,
A star that would not tarnish.
He coated his fiddle in 'NITROMORS',
To get off all that varnish.
He painted that poor fiddle blue,
To imitate his hero.
His lust and ambition you could not fault,
But his taste and talent was zero.

He went and sold his guitar,
Sold his guitar, sold it to his big brother Andy.

When he started scraping away,
People left the area.
He was quickly left all on his own,
Just like he had Malaria.
There was one tune, he was determined to play,
It was poor old 'Fanny Power'.
If she could have heard it the way he played,
She'd have prayed for her final hour.

He went and sold his guitar,
Sold his guitar, sold it to his big brother Andy.

Andy said if he carried on,
He'd take that fiddle and burn it
. So he thought he would cross the Irish Sea,
What better place to learn it?
Found himself lost in the North,
Without much rhyme nor reason.
Looking for a place to learn his tune,
In the middle of the marching season.

He went and sold his guitar,
Sold his guitar, sold it to his big brother Andy.

When he came to a barricade,
They'd let him go no further.
Did not notice the stony glares,
Intent on bloody murder.
He sat down to play his tune,
And he didn't need to say it.
A young lad took his whistle out,
And showed him how to play it.

He went and sold his guitar,
Sold his guitar, sold it to his big brother Andy.

An old man came from the other side,
He could not stand his scratching.
He stepped up smart and took his bow,
And now the notes were matching.
A flute joined in and started a reel
And then the dancing started.
He soon forgot his violin,
For his dancing was whole-hearted.

He went and sold his guitar,
Sold his guitar, sold it to his big brother Andy.

So many people played that day,
They'd forgotten why they came there.
Thanks to that bumbling Englishman,
It never was the same there.
They thought it was a good idea,
To send him where there was trouble.
For as soon as he started to play his tune,
They'd all leave at the double.

He went and sold his guitar,
Sold his guitar, sold it to his big brother Andy.

The moral of this tale is clear,
That when you've nearly lost it.
The very best ones to sort it out,
Are the very ones that caused it.
And where is the hero of our tale,
Who's not been heard of latterly.
When he's not peace-making for the U.N.
He's understudy for Michael Flatley.

He went and sold his guitar,
Sold his guitar, sold it to his big brother Andy.

Roger Gall 1999.

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 12:56 PM

There's a lot of silly sneering on this thread.

A couple of small points:

The Irishmen and Irishwomen who volunteered to fight in World War II were not necessarily fighting "for Britain" - they were resisting another imperial power.

Ireland has held a commemoration of all Irish people who have died fighting in wars - our own for the right to have an independent republic, and other wars, including the Spanish Civil War, the Great War, World War II, the Boer War, the 16th- and 17th- and 18th- and 19th-century wars all across Europe, the American wars, etc, etc - every July in the Royal Hospital Kilmainham, Dublin, once a British barracks, before that a Viking burial ground, since that an art gallery. There are also commemorations in the Lutyens Garden of Remembrance not far away in Inchicore (a beautiful, serene garden built to commemorate the dead of the War to End All Wars (hah!)) and in the German cemetery in Glendalough.

Rather than fighting about the rights and wrongs of earlier wars, would we not be better off trying to find out how to make better ways of negotiating settlements?

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:02 PM

irish people drink, then they fight, if they fight sober, it is because they are fighting for the drink

Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:38 PM

JTT
Both of your small points have been discussed at length.
I acknowledged that the irish volunteers of WW2 were not fighting for Britain, but for the British cause against Hitler. The significance for me,(why I brought it up) was that IRA was supporting Hitler and those volunteers showed the low level of support for IRA.

The Memorial Park in Dublin has been mentioned. The discussion was about 80 years being too long a wait for it.

Your final point no one would argue with.