BS: Stemcellgate

Subject: BS: Stemcellgate
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 09:45 AM

I know the Bush haters here are going to have a field day calling me a Bush supporter and other names but here goes:

I know the Bush haters here are going to have a field day calling me a Bush supporter but here goes:

Bush haters use Selective federal funding of stem cell research, which did not even exist under the previous administration, as a political opportunity to discredit GWB.

They try to mischaracterize the restrictions as a "BAN ON STEM CELL RESEARCH"

"We're going to lift the ban on stem cell research," Kerry said. "We're going to listen to our scientists and stand up for science. We're going to say yes to knowledge, yes to discovery and yes to a new era of hope for all Americans."

After weighing the evidence, I think GWB is acting rationally on this matter and is in step with the rest of the World. You can read the excerpts below, take a fresh look by maybe doing little research of your own, put things into perspective and form your own conclusions.

The Clinton Era:

By Rick Weiss
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, November 6, 1998

"...Stem cells are controversial because they offer embryologists a relatively simple method for creating "designer" babies bearing specific genetic traits that would become part of a child's permanent genetic lineage.

The discovery also threatens to reopen the debate over human cloning, since one of the simpler ways to grow transplantable replacement tissues from the new cells would call for a patient to be partially cloned.

And in the political arena, the new work has reignited a smoldering debate over a four-year-old congressional ban on the use of federal funds for human embryo research. With the therapeutic potential of embryonic cells suddenly very real, advocates are calling for a reexamination of that ban, saying the development of lifesaving applications will be hindered if federal dollars remain off-limits. ..."

The GWB Era:

By Amy Goldstein and Mike Allen
Washington Post Staff Writers
August 10, 2001

"President Bush last night announced the federal government will begin to pay for a limited amount of research on stem cells from human embryos, a politically charged decision that will move taxpayer money slowly into a controversial but promising field of medical inquiry.

In his first presidential address to the American people, Bush said federal grants may be used to conduct studies solely on stem cells that have been harvested from embryos left over at fertility clinics. But he prohibited subsidies of research that involved the creation or destruction of additional embryos. ..."


In Europe:

BBC News:
April 10 2003
"MEPs vote to ban stem cell research

Stem cell research is legal in the UK
European MPs have voted against allowing scientists to carry out research on stem cells taken from embryos."

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - "Germany pressed its EU partners to ban European funding for embryonic stem-cell research, a day after
President George W. Bush vetoed a bill that would have expanded such work in the United States."

BBC News:
July 24 2006
"... The EU ministers agreed not to fund activities that destroyed human embryos but said other research could continue. ..."

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 10:11 AM

From the side of the pond, there does seem to be something awry in the Bush stance as I hear it. It appears to be that the stem research is still permitted, but cannot be government funded. That in itself isn't a problem - it is merely the ordinary question of what you think are Government responsibilities, how you decide to prioritise those, and how much you think the Government should raise.

No, the problem as I see it is that this decision is being presented as a matter of morality. I can't see any coherent argument based on morality that says its perfectly ok providing a commercial company does it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 11:50 AM

Yeah, it's okay to flush human embryos down the friggin' toilet but not okay for scientists to use them in an effort to improve living, breathing folks health???

That is George Bush's position, Old Guy...

Is that's your's as well???

Yes _______

No ________

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 01:06 PM

Bobert: you have been sensitized by the left wing media. Try reading up on things in the rest of the world.

Bush is saying it is wrong for the government to support that. He is not saying it is illegal for anybody to do it with other funding. The same conclusion they came to in Europe.

There was no federal funding of stem cell research at all before the Bush administration. Are you a glass half full or a glass half empty guy?

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 02:34 PM

It appears to be that the stem research is still permitted, but cannot be government funded. That in itself isn't a problem

In the past, when the government "failed to fund" a particular kind of research it wasn't much of a problem. The prohibition against human embryo stem cell research however effectively includes a ban on the use of any government funded facilities and/or resources by anyone engaging in such research.

The rules are typically vague, however those who wish to engage in this "legal but not funded" research have been forced to the interpretation that all facilities used and all persons working on this research must be strictly segregated from any and all other facilities and persons associated with any work that receives any government funding.

In effect, a researcher who participates in this research must sever all contact with any other research. Complete new and separate facilities must be constructed and equipped specifically for the "unfunded" research. It has even been the interpretation of legal advisors that the separate facility cannot even use the same accountants, purchasers, secretaries, janitors, or maintenance people. In at least a few places, complete and independent legal staff advisors have been deemed necessary.

The withdrawal of key researchers from other projects is by itself an immense expense to those other programs, since replacements must be found, recruited, trained, and brought into the program; and typically may require several years to come up to where an "expert" was when he/she departed. (And the new guy can't call the old expert who left to resolve a question.) This is true even for "unfunded" programs, if the work is being done in a facility at which some other program receives government funding.

Quite obviously, creating and staffing an entirely new facility dedicated to work that could easily have been done by a "fringe group" in an existing facility requires a large investment, largely unnecessary from from any technical and/or administrative considerations under former practices. It does have the "advantage" that the results of any such research will be owned by the "people with the money," instead of being subject to the usual "public benefit" rules for similar more conventionally - private or public - funded projects.

It is not a trivial "they just won't pay for it." It's whole new book of rules.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 02:38 PM

Thanks for that, John. Those are the sort of consequences we don't hear about at this distance from the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 03:02 PM

Stop calling things "blahblah-Gate"

It makes you sound like an unoriginal idiot

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 03:30 PM

People here don't hate Bush, OG. Many would simply rather he lost lots of weight, slipped through his own anal sphincter and hanged himself from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 05:05 PM

well, our fearless leader has the problem well in hand

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 07:34 PM

No, GUEST, Ol' Guy or whomever, Bush has nuthin' against embryoes being flushed down the toilet... The alternative would be to fund a program that would hire thousands of women to carry them to birth...

It ain't me who ain't payin' attention here, pal... It's you!!!.... And yer ignorance has nuthin' to do with me readin', or not readin', the Washington Post...

Go back to talkin' about yer old Ford tractor... It, at least, is somethin' that you have some knowledge about...

Not a slam... Jus' pure unaltered fact...

What??? Do you really not know how mnay human embryos are destroyed every year???

Sheese...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 09:54 PM

So when I say that Bush does not believe the government should support research that causes the destruction of human embroyos, I don't know what I am talking about?

Or is it because I do not holler Amen when you rant about flushing them down the toilet that I don't know what I am talking about?

Lets talk about what Bush believes the government should support. Do you know what the government does support? Do they tell you anything about that in the WAPO?

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 09:55 PM

It supports Halliburton, I do know that.

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 09:56 PM

Anything Bush did or didn't do is worthy of a gate suffix like pretzelgate.

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 10:05 PM

What is supported:

http://www.isscr.org/

Current human clinical applications using adult stem cells
David T. Scadden, MD
July 28, 2006

Stem cell therapies are a reality in the clinic today, however, the diseases they are used to treat are limited to very specific types of disorders. Some who oppose embryonic stem cell research have provided a list of 69 conditions putatively treated by adult stem cells. The implicit message is that adult stem cell therapies are sufficient and that scientists underemphasize the power of adult stem cells in order to justify embryonic stem cell research. This proposition is profoundly cynical about the motivation of scientists and because of its use to inform the public, is a claim that deserves careful scrutiny.

What are the diseases where adult stem cell therapies have been shown to be beneficial in responsibly conducted clinical trials? The range of diseases is still extremely restricted, largely limited to blood disorders and specific cancers. Inherited disorders of the blood and immune system and acquired loss of bone marrow function can be cured with stem cell transplantation. In cancer, intensive use of chemotherapy or radiation destroys normal bone marrow along with tumor cells and replacement of blood forming stem cells can be lifesaving. Most of the cancers for which this approach is successful are childhood tumors or blood cell-derived cancers in adults (leukemia, lymphoma, multiple myeloma). Despite breast cancer being among the list of conditions currently treated by adult stem cells, it is not a disease where stem cell transplantation has conclusively been shown to be of use.

Another type of adult stem cell, the mesenchymal stem cell, has entered the scene as a developing therapy. This cell type can become muscle, bone, cartilage or fat and has some ability to modify immune function in certain experimental models. It has therefore become a cell of intense interest for treating musculoskeletal abnormalities, cardiac disease and some abnormalities of immunity (such as graft-versus-host disease after bone marrow transplant). There are ongoing studies to test the role of this cell type, some of which have been quite encouraging. However, mesenchymal stem cell therapy has not yet been shown to have a clear- cut advantage over existing therapies, is not considered a standard of care for any condition and does not have regulatory approval for the routine treatment of any disease. Some specific uses of these cells may eventually emerge, however it is incorrect to state that it is a current clinical therapy in any context other than a clinical research study.

Beyond those stated above, diseases that are listed as “current clinical applicationsâ€쳌 of adult stem cells include a broad range of problems from spinal cord injury to Parkinson’s disease to coronary artery disease. While it is true that adult stem cells have been tested in these and other desperate situations, it is not true that the results have been compelling enough to consider stem cells a current therapy. Reports of success are generally anecdotal and often without appropriate control groups. These reports may be helpful for encouraging further, more in-depth research, but they should not be regarded as definitive evidence of current therapy. To imply such is misleading and may be hurtful to patients and ultimately to the goal shared by those on both sides of this debate: to define the most effective ways to reverse debilitating disease.

Adult stem cell therapies are powerful, but they are not as wide-ranging as claimed. They have a narrow record of disease types for which the therapy is extremely valuable, a success story that is enormously encouraging evidence for stem cell research leading to methods of positively affecting people’s lives.

It took approximately 25 years between discovery and routine clinical application of adult stem cell therapy. It is not known how long it will take for embryonic stem cells to become a useful therapy or whether they will ever directly do so.

However, it would be unwise to ignore the potential for either adult or embryonic stem cells to result in a meaningful new approach. Adult and embryonic stem cells are complementary subjects of research and studying them side by side offers the greatest potential to rapidly generate new therapies.

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 10:34 AM

Actually, I have a big problem with government funding for military industrial research on better ways to kill millions of people.

I also have a very large problem with what sorts of medical research the government refuses to fund.

At one point, the US government refused to adequately fund medical research into diseases that killed millions of women (breast cancer, for instance) or African Americans (sickle cell anemia, for instance).

So fuck Bush. He is the most despicable sort of power monger there is. One who plays politics with peoples' lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 08:49 PM

Amen, GUEST...

And as fir you Old Guy: You never did answwer the question I posed to you about the destruction of tens upon thousands of embryos...

But that normal fir you, Old Guy... You can spout it until yer handlers (i.e. Rush Limbaugh and co.) don't have easy cut 'n paste answers for you...

How 'bout just answerin' tha danged question???

No, you won't becuase you can't... Like always, you paint yerslef into a corner with yer cut n' posts but cut 'n paste defenses is a lot like a cap 'n ball Colt: "Get you into trouble but can't get you out"... (Steve Earle... Hey, this is a fold music site, too...)

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 12:28 AM

I have no friggin idea. Have you been counting or something?

Rush Limbaugh is a drug addict jerk.

Anybody can flush human embroyos down the toilet. Anybody can conduct research with human embroyos. They just can't get federal grants.

They can get federal grants for research using adult stem cells.

What ever you do, don't read the cut and paste. It contains information you can't handle. Too many big words.

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 03:07 AM

For anyone seriously interested, a rather long article that appeared in Technology Review a couple of months ago has been split into two separate postings for web readers. Each section is multiple pages, so I'd suggest using the "print" button to view each section in a single page:

Stem Cells Reborn Part I

and

Stem Cells Reborn Part II

Part II especially discusses some of the effects of the Federal Ban on government support for research:

"The federal blockade also means that the National Institutes of Health, the nation's largest biomedical-research institute, has forsaken its standard regulatory role, leaving many scientists operating in a vacuum. The National Academy of Sciences has tried to pick up some of the slack, publishing a nonbinding set of guidelines for stem cell research in 2005 and creating a stem cell research oversight committee earlier this year."

What this really means is that without the customary participation of the NIH there is no concensus ethical standard for stem cell research, leaving a privately funded and isolated laboratory pretty much on it's own to decide what is "permissible" (i.e. what they can get away with to make a profit?)

There are many promising methods using both embryonic and adult stem cells. Each has its own problems and risks, and the benefits hoped for are different for each. Those who want to get a view of one of the newer proposed procedures, essential a detailed account of how "adult stem cells are made," might also be interested in:

Lack of Human Eggs Could Hamper US Cloning Efforts.

This last one is a much shorter article, but describes one of the several proposed biogenetic areas that may not be commonly understood. The possible avenues for research are much broader than is apparent from the typical public (and political) reports, and the most dangerous aspect of the Bush policy that I see is the isolation of those who will work on stem cell research in isolation from national (not just Federal) agencies that might maintain a more consistent and general standard of medical ethics than may be the case with "independently funded" (and profit driven?) research.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 08:27 AM

Not only can't they get grants, O-Guy, but they can't share information, share a facility or talk shop with anyone who does...

In other words, yeah, it's okay for you to do the research if you are willing to be ostrisized from any part of the scientific community that gets so much as a dollar from the feds...

No wonder the US is loosing the science wars...

This is some very messed up policy that panders to no one else but the Christain Right to get their votes this November...

The Taliban is certainly winnin' it's fair share of the battles right here in the good ol' U.S. of A....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 08:39 AM

There was a law against human embroyo research in Switzerland until 2004. Not just a lack of government funding but a ban on private research but not in America: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1410782,00.html

"The referendum challenging the medical research law adopted by the Swiss parliament in 2003 was launched by anti-abortion and religious groups, which oppose the principle of using "living" human embryos."

Meanwhile back at the ranch:

The Bush Administration was the first to provide federal funding for embryonic stem cell research. In keeping with this commitment, the Administration:
   Provided FY 2003 funding of $24.8 million for human embryonic stem cell research, an increase of 132 percent from FY 2002; in FY 2003 the Administration has strongly supported promising research using adult stem cells by providing $190.7 million for human non-embryonic stem cells (adult stem cells, including those from cord blood, placenta, and bone marrow).
Clarification of current NIH rules to enable researchers to participate in privately-funded stem cell research without compromising their ability to receive NIH funding for separate projects.
    NIH currently funds three Exploratory Centers of Excellence to promote basic research on embryonic stem cells.
    NIH is also engaged in a project on its Bethesda campus to comprehensively analyze the properties of the stem cell lines that are eligible for federal funding, which will provide researchers with valuable information.
    NIH developed five training courses to help American and foreign scientists acquire needed skills and techniques to culture human embryonic stem cell lines.
    NIH has funded an adult stem cell bank which provides mesenchymal stem cells to the research community. This type of adult stem cell is able to proliferate, which lends itself to the degree of expansion necessary for wide distribution; they have also been shown to have the capacity to differentiate into specialized cells. It is worth noting that Federal funds are available for the derivation of adult stem cells.

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 08:50 AM

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05156/516098.stm

U.S. relatively hospitable to stem-cell research
Sunday, June 05, 2005
By Michael Woods, Post-Gazette National Bureau

BARCELONA, Spain -- In pushing the U.S. House of Representatives last month to expand federal support for human embryonic stem cell research, proponents argued that the United States was falling behind in what could be one of the most promising medical advances of the age....

...But the concern about falling behind the rest of the world may be overblown. In fact, the United States appears to be a relatively hospitable place for embryonic stem cell research, especially compared to Canada and some nations in Europe where governments not only refuse financial support for human cloning to produce stem cells, they outlaw the practice.

In Canada, scientists who violate the ban can be jailed for 10 years and fined $500,000. "You can bet that with these harsh sanctions scientists are complying," said Rosario M. Isasi, an attorney who works on medical ethics issues at the University of Montreal.

Under German law, scientists who even e-mail or telephone cloning instructions to colleagues in other countries can be thrown into jail for three years and fined more than $60,000. There are key differences among nations when it comes to regulating embryonic stem cell research, according to Robert L. Paarlberg, a professor at Wellesley College in Massachusetts who has written a book on genetic engineering.

The United States restricts the flow of federal money for embryonic stem cell research -- limiting support to a relative handful of stem cell lines created from embryos discarded at in vitro fertilization clinics before August 2001 -- but does not limit private, state or local government funding. California voters last year approved $3 billion for stem cell research...."

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 10:48 AM

There is one reason, and one reason only why this subject is "an issue" and that is the political agenda of the Christian right.

There is a huge divide here, to be sure. It is the divide between medical and scientific ethics, and religious fundamentalist ideology.

Ethics and religious ideology just plain don't mix, and nor should they. Like oil and water.

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 11:56 AM

poor ol' old guy

Doncha know if the hate fits, wear it.

On the heels of W's steadfast refusal to support a cease fire
(against the wishes of every civilized and uncivilized nation on Earth)
we can all rest assured that the heart felt prayer Bush has made for all the little kids who are dying from US bombs deployed by Isreal in Lebanon will speed all those little lives to heaven.

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 12:28 PM

As I watched the evening news last night, they showed Bush coming up to the microphones before getting on his chopper. He stepped up to speak about the Qana atrocity. He could muster neither genuine or genuinely fake emotion. Even with B-movie actor/president Reagan (where do the Republicans find these idiots they get elected prez anyway? B movie actors, frat boy drunks, etc)

I found it to be every bit as telling as his faked empathy responses to Katrina.

It is so clear this man truly does not give a shit about his fellow man.

Of course, I don't think the people who vote for him particularly give a shit about their fellow man either, and that includes some of my relatives. Those relatives of mine who do vote that way really don't give a rat's ass about the human condition, the future for humanity, etc. What they do care about are their suburban lives that don't brink them happiness, their status as seen by what consumer goods (houses, cars, etc) they can manage to accumulate, and their pattern of voting for any asshole who says he won't raise their taxes.

Chumps, the entire lot of them. They all vote Republican and "in their own best interest".

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 02:41 PM

Donuel: Looks like you have the franchise on hate. You and Hizbollah. That's waht Hizbollah wants. Every Lebanese civilian that dies is a sucess for them.

And what the hell does it have to do with stem cell research? There are plenty of anti war threads you can spew your hate on.

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 02:45 PM

Nobody spews hate better than the Republican right, Old Guy, so maybe you should climb down off that high horse of yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 03:05 PM

So how about an example?

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 05:59 PM

A man is judged by his deeds, oldster... Yeah, personally you might be the kinda guy that I would enjoy drinkin' a couple beers with but the policis that you support tend to be anti-human and anti-Earth...

And, to date, I have not seen you break with one single Bush policy... Not one...

If tomorrow Bush said that plaid shirts were out, you'd throw yers out in a heart beat, then got find a bunch of cut 'n pastes to support why evgeryone needs to burn their plaid shirts...

You just don't seem to have any indpendant thoughts... You seem to be the everyman of Eric Hoffer's "True Believer"...

But, I like ya' anyway...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Stemcellgate
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 11:06 PM

Did you attack Amnestygate yet?