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BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down
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Subject: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST Date: 31 Jul 06 - 10:58 PM Just saw this on the Beeb site: Castro steps aside after surgery |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 31 Jul 06 - 11:40 PM "Raul Castro, 75, will temporarily act as both president and first secretary of the Communist Party." The key word here is "temporarily". I don't hear the fat lady singing just yet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST Date: 31 Jul 06 - 11:59 PM I don't think much of the temporary thing. Castro won't willing give up his power, ever. We don't even know if the report is accurate, or the letter legit. What we do know is Castro has never done this before, even when he had health problems (that we only learned of after the fact). His brother has been more visible in recent weeks, according to reports, and Castro hasn't been seen. This could just be Raul's way of preparing the ground for his take-over, which may already be a done deal. Remember, most Cubans have never known another leader. Castro is second only to Queen Lizzie in the longevity of rule department, planet wide. All speculation on my part, of course. But I think this announcement is heralding the end of the era, one way or the other. Even if he makes a comeback, Cubans now know it is only a matter of time before Fidel is gone. Quite some ride, that one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Amos Date: 31 Jul 06 - 11:59 PM From an earlier BBC article: "Three weeks before his 80th birthday, Cuban President Fidel Castro has joked that he has no plans to be in power when he is 100 years old. He was addressing 100,000 people who were marking the anniversary of the start of the 1953 Cuban Revolution. Mr Castro used his speech to make fun of the US, which has set up a $80m (£43m) fund to "boost democracy" when the communist leader dies. In power since 1959, Mr Castro has so far outlasted nine US presidents." None of them will be in power when they turn 100, either. Sic transit gloria mundi. I wonder, though, which things have gotten better in Cuba since Bautista fell, and which things have not. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Aug 06 - 12:58 AM The BBC headline in the first link is "Castro steps aside after surgery," which doesn't sound like a resignation - but the article says it's the first time he has relinquishe power to anyone, even temporarily, since he came to power in 1959. I'd say the end is near for Castro - but it ain't here yet. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Kweku Date: 01 Aug 06 - 04:43 AM Mr Castro has so far outlasted nine US presidents. That is interesting. I wonder how it will feel like to have an "enemy" like that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,hugo Date: 01 Aug 06 - 06:58 AM What is amazing to me is the fact that the USA has been allowed to maintain an economic blockade on Cuba for the past 46 or so years. Despite the blockade Cuba has an enviable health care system . HUGO |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:01 AM Cubans now know it is only a matter of time before Fidel is gone. Well they'd have to be pretty strange to thin anything else. Obviously he isn't going to be around for ever, or even for that long - he is 80 after all. But I would think it quite likely he'll outlast Bush. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Wolfgang Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:21 AM He has stepped aside before for a couple of days some years ago. People who are elected tend to stay for a shorter time than those who are not. When I think back very far in my life I can still remember hearing the name Castro as a guerilla leader. However, the queen of the UK has always been in that position in my personal memory (which allows a good guess of my age). Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Greg F. Date: 01 Aug 06 - 10:01 AM In light of the Project For A New American Century and BuShite past practice, sems pretty obvious what Dumbya's "plan" is. Maybe they can think of a spiffy name for the invasion of Cuba- maybe "Bay Of Pigs II" & then the U.S. can prop up a dictator like Batista again. Yessir, the Red White & Blue "There To Set Things Right" ......... Cubans await news on Castro's health By ANITA SNOW, Associated Press Last updated: 9:25 a.m., Tuesday, August 1, 2006 ... On Monday...President Bush was in Miami and spoke of the island's future: "If Fidel Castro were to move on because of natural causes, we've got a plan in place to help the people of Cuba understand there's a better way than the system in which they've been living under," he told WAQI-AM Radio Mambi, a Spanish-language radio station. [PS: "the system in which they've been living under" ??? God, the man is an embarrassment!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Richard Bridge Date: 01 Aug 06 - 10:08 AM Hugo makes a very good point. The Cuban poor enjoy a vastly better health system than the poor of the USA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST Date: 01 Aug 06 - 10:11 AM And crime, especially violent crime, is very low. And that stands in huge contrast to the US. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: bobad Date: 01 Aug 06 - 10:13 AM And also, I believe, literacy and universality of post secondary education. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Woody Date: 01 Aug 06 - 12:02 PM http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={883786FA-6CDA-479C-AE3A-5AB2C08971F1})&language=EN Chavez Wishes Fidel Quick Recovery Hanoi, Aug 1 (Prensa Latina) President Hugo Chavez, who is visiting Vietnam, wished a speedy recovery to the "good friend, forger of ideals, and dream builder" Cuban President Fidel Castro, who underwent surgery on Monday. Chavez devoted several minutes of his speech before Vietnam´s Chamber of Commerce in this capital, to highlight the Caribbean Island leader´s stature as politician and revolutionary. He subjected his health to an extreme stress, due to days of international and national exhausting work, which caused him a severe intestinal crisis, with constant bleeding "that forced me to undergo complicated surgery," the leader explained in an announcement to the nation. The surgery will oblige him to rest for several weeks, away from his duties and responsibilities. The Venezuelan president said that as soon as he learned about it in the morning, through international television stations, he called Fidel´s office and felt calmed when he was told that he was recovering well, without further complications. He stressed that "more than a triple friend, Fidel is an infinite friend," referring to the idea of friendship of Sergio Rodriguez, the teacher of the Liberator Simon Bolivar, and historic figure in Venezuela. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: bill kennedy Date: 01 Aug 06 - 03:00 PM I, a US citizen, wish Fidel Castro a quick and complete recovery and many more years as leader (not ruler) of the Cuban people. And I can't wait until Bush and his cronies are out of power, hopefully they will never be able to enact thier 'plan' for the future of the Cuban government. I find it a comical, infantile assumption professed by US media all these years that Fidel is the obstacle, and that without him the Cuban people will rise up and welcome Uncle Sam back as ruler (not leader). Will we be bombing the Cuban people into submission in a few years? I hope not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: SINSULL Date: 01 Aug 06 - 03:19 PM I wonder if that "better way of life" Bush has in mind for the Cubans is nearly as good as the one he has provided for the Iraqis and Afghans? I knew a man years ago who as a child lived with his uncle's head on a stake in the front yard for weeks. He had no love for Castro. I wish no one ill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Aug 06 - 04:27 PM "we've got a plan in place to help the people of Cuba Coming from Bush that sounds like a pretty terrifying threat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Ernest Date: 02 Aug 06 - 08:40 AM Funny thing... if Fidel Castro is such a good leader for the Cuban people, and things are so good there.... why are so many people try to immigrate to the US instead of Cuba? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: MarkS Date: 02 Aug 06 - 08:48 AM And why are so many Cubans risking leaky boats and rafts to come to the US? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Les from Hull Date: 02 Aug 06 - 09:10 AM Actually, things might be better for the Cuban people if successive US governments had not prevented Cuban goods from entering the US market and not made things difficult for the Cuban holiday trade. Of course, if they had have done, Communism would have spread across the USA by now, wouldn't it? And do people here actually believe that Queen Elizabeth II has anything at all to do with the running of the United Kingdom, or for that matter, anywhere else where she is Queen? Where did you people go to school? Is it to late to get your money back? Best Wishes to Senor Castro for a quick and full recovery. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Greg F. Date: 02 Aug 06 - 09:26 AM We've got to bomb Castro Got to bomb him flat He's too damn successful And we can't risk that! How do I know? Read it in the Daily News. -Tom Paxton ca 1964 Plu ça change.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 02 Aug 06 - 11:00 AM The US Government, and that means all of us citizens as well, practices state terrorism in many ways, in this case economic terrorism. The economic embargo of Cuba by the US since 1960 has been in place in the hopes that if the Cuban people suffered enough as a result, they would rise up and form a counter-revolution, allowing US corporations and interests back in. That is terrorism, the intentional harming of innocent civilian populations for a strategic goal. BUT, it has not worked. Many Cubans ARE suffering because the US won't buy anything from Cuba and won't sell anything to Cuba, like medicine, food etc. People risk thier lives in small boats because they are desperate, not because they hate Fidel or his economic policies. In spite of all this, there is not as much hunger and homelessness in Cuba as there is in the US, they have universal health care, education, etc., but a stagnant economy because we won't trade with them keeps many unemployed or underemployed. It is long past time that a handfull of Cuban emigres holds the US hostage through an imbalanced electoral college system of voting. US policy should reflect US values, not corporate greed or upper class assumed privileges. Viva Fidel, viva Cuba. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 02 Aug 06 - 01:05 PM Cuba trades with every other country in the world. How come trade with the US is such a essential thing to the well being of another country? It's bullshit along with all the crap about what a utopia it is in Cuba. Is North Korea a utopia too? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Les from Hull Date: 02 Aug 06 - 01:38 PM Have you got a map handy, Old Guy? For any country with such a huge market of rich suckers so near and not be allowed to trade with it is a big problem. In spite of this and all the money the US Government has spent on trying to overthrow the Cuban Government, nothing of the sort has happened. Oh and part of that money I mentioned is used to convince the gullible that the Cuban system is unfair (presumably because it doesn't allow Corporate America to exploit them). Nobody said that Cuba is a utopia, it's just a bit more egalitarian than most. For a country that is not particularly rich in natural resources, it's not doing too bad in world terms. And Utopia was no utopia anyway since it accepted slavery. Cuba would of course be richer if it didn't have to spend a large part of its GNP on armed forces to defend itself from a large aggressive country to the North with a track record of invading neutral counties. You could stop reading those newspapers and listening to those TV news reports if you want to have a balanced view of what's going on in the world. North Korea is not the subject of this thread. Is changing the subject an admission of something on your part? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Aug 06 - 03:08 PM If the US government's quarrel with its neighbour was actually about freedom and democracy, Cuba would be a long way down the list of priority states, well behind many of America's favourite allies. Imagine that there was a genuinely free election in Cuba tomorrow (which would be a very good idea) - and Castro and his colleagues was overwhelmingly confirmed in power (which is the most likely outcome). Does anyone seriously think that this would change the attitude of the Bushites? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Ernest Date: 02 Aug 06 - 03:42 PM So why do Castro & Co don`t have genuinley free elections then? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: DougR Date: 02 Aug 06 - 04:08 PM True, Hugo, the Cubans have good healthcare evidently, but those that can afford them drive 1957 Cheverolets. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: bobad Date: 02 Aug 06 - 04:18 PM If I could afford a '57 Chevy, I'd be driving one too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 02 Aug 06 - 05:41 PM Cuban Hospital room Medical care is free in Cuba Dr. Darsi Ferrer RamÃrez, Director of the Juan Bruno Zayas Health and Human Rights Center in Havana, sent these photos of Yamilet Fernandez Donate, a 32 year old Cuban woman who almost died after complaining last November 27 of abdominal pain and entering one of Havana's hospitals for Cubans. At the time, Mrs. Fernandez was six weeks pregnant and wasn't suffering from any diagnosed illness. She entered the Hospital Nacional in Havana where she was given intravenous analgesics and was sent home when the pain subsided. A few hours later, Yamilet's abdominal pain got much worse and she was also running a fever. She went to the Hijas de Galicia Maternity Hospital. There she was told that her pain was not related to her pregnancy and that she should see the surgeon on duty at the Miguel Enriques Hospital. In there, she was told that she was suffering from Acute Gastritis and the doctors recommended a gastric suction (stomach pumping or gastric lavage) and after the procedure she was told to go home that everything was now OK. When Yamilet got much worse, her family took her to the Julio Trigo Hospital. Once there, the doctors told her that what she really had was an Urinary Infection and said that the best thing was to send her back to the Hospital Nacional. In the next couple of days Yamilet's health got much worse. She was in constant pain and running a high fever. She was vomiting, had muscular fatigue and even fainted several times. After the family kept complaining, the doctors decided to operate the poor woman and they finally determined that she had a perforated appendix, peritonitis and an intestinal occlusion. After the operation she spent several days in the intensive care unit and later had to have another surgery due to several complications that resulted from the first one. Several days later the doctors told her that they had to perform an abortion. At the end, and because of the negligence of her doctors, Yamilet lost her baby and also portions of her intestine and colon. She also has very ugly scars on her abdomen to remind her of the pain and suffering that she had to endure at the hands of these butchers dressed as doctors. Castro has sent thousands of Cuban doctors to Venezuela and many other countries of South America and Africa. And now Cubans who get sick have to endure not only the lack of medicines, but also the lack of qualified medical practitioners. Of course, those 'doctors' don't have to worry about a malpractice lawsuit since they work for the Cuban regime and the victims don't have any right to complain about their "free healthcare." Next time that you hear one of Castro's apologists saying that Cubans receive "excellent free healthcare" show them Yamilet's photos and the story of what she went through. Don't blame the embargo for the lack of medical equipment in Cuba's hospitals. Those who still are trying to defend the indefensible claim that the reason why Cuba's hospital lack the necessary equipment and supplies to treat regular Cubans is because of the US embargo. But that is another lie perpetrated by Castro's propaganda machine. No medicines for Cubans, but thousands of tons of medical supplies for Bolivia While Cubans are told again and again that there are no medicines available for them and their children because of the US embargo, the Cuban dictator is donating thousands of tons of medicines and medical equipment to Evo Morales in Bolivia. In this report by a Bolivian TV station, a dissident who is now living in Bolivia explains that when he was living in Cuba, he couldn't find any of the medicines that are now being donated by Castro to Bolivia. This dissident is now being sought by Castro's agents operating in Bolivia. During this TV program a Bolivian woman calls to offer her home as refuge. Video http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 02 Aug 06 - 05:55 PM Fidel and Raoul at work executing a fellow rebel who did not follow orders. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 02 Aug 06 - 06:34 PM Oops A Cuban hospital room |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Aug 06 - 08:49 PM So things never go wrong in hospitals in other countries? Some statistics from a piece in Wednesday's Guardian: "Cuba has an average life expectancy of 77.3 against the US's 77.4. The rates of infant mortality are similarly close. The respective health spends, however, underline the Cuban miracle: in the US, the annual figure per head is $5,711; in Cuba, it's $251." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 02 Aug 06 - 09:42 PM http://www.canf.org/Issues/medicalapartheid.htm Health Care in Cuba: Myth Versus Reality Cuba's Economic Choice: The Regime's Health Over the People's Cuba's economy is in disarray as a direct result of its government's continued adherence to a discredited communist economic model. This decline has directly affected the health of ordinary Cubans. Lack of chlorinated water, poor nutrition, deteriorating housing, and generally unsanitary conditions have increased the number of cases of infectious diseases, especially in concentrated urban areas like Havana. The grave economic problems in Cuba were exacerbated by the demise of the Soviet Union and the ending of the $5 billion in subsidies that the U.S.S.R. gave annually to the Castro government. Cuba made significant advances in the quality of health care available to average citizens as a result of these subsidies. However, it devoted the bulk of its financial windfall to maintaining an out-sized military machine and a massive internal security apparatus. The end of Soviet subsidies forced Cuba to face the real costs of its health care system. Unwilling to adopt the economic changes necessary to reform its dysfunctional economy, the Castro government quickly faced a large budget deficit. In response, the Cuban Government made a deliberate decision to continue to spend money to maintain its military and internal security apparatus at the expense of other priorities--including health care. According to the Pan American Health Organization, the Cuban Government currently devotes a smaller percentage of its budget for health care than such regional countries as Jamaica, Costa Rica, and the Dominican Republic. Health Care in Cuba: "Medical Apartheid" and Health Tourism Of course, not everyone in Cuba receives substandard health care. In fact, senior Cuban Communist Party officials and those who can pay in hard currency can get first-rate medical services any time they want. This situation exists because the Cuban Government has chosen to develop a two-tiered medical system--the deliberate establishment of a kind of "medical apartheid"--that funnels money into services for a privileged few, while depriving the health care system used by the vast majority of Cubans of adequate funding. Following the loss of Soviet subsidies, Cuba developed special hospitals and set aside floors in others for exclusive use by foreigners who pay in hard currency. These facilities are well-equipped to provide their patients with quality modern care. Press reports indicate that during 1996 more than 7,000 "health tourists" paid Cuba $25 million for medical services. Cuba's "Medical Technology Fair" held April 21-25 presented a graphic display of this two-tier medical system. The fair displayed an array of both foreign and Cuban-manufactured medicines and high-tech medical equipment and services items not available to most Cubans. The fair showcased Cuban elite hospitals promoted by "health tourism" enterprises such as SERVIMED and MEDICUBA. On the other hand, members of the Cuban Communist Party elite, and the military high-command are allowed to use these hospitals free of charge. Certain diplomatic missions in Havana have been contacted and told that their local employees can be granted access privileges to these elite medical facilities--if they pay in dollars. The founder of Havana's International Center for Neurological Restoration, Dr. Hilda Molina, in 1994 quit her position after refusing to increase the number of neural transplant operations without the required testing and follow-up. She expressed outrage that only foreigners are treated. Dr. Molina resigned from her seat in the national legislature, and returned the medals Fidel Castro had bestowed on her for her work. In 1994, Cuba exported $110 million worth of medical supplies. In 1995, this figure rose to $125 million. These earnings have not been used to support the health care system for the Cuban public. In fact, tens of millions of dollars have been diverted to support and subsidize Cuba's biomedical research programs--money that could have been used for primary care facilities. U.S. Sales of Medicines and Medical Supplies to Cuba The US embargo does NOT deny medicines and medical supplies to the Cuban people. As stipulated in Section 1705 of the Cuban Democracy Act of 1992, the U.S. Government routinely issues licenses for the sale of medicine and medical supplies to Cuba. The only requirement for obtaining a license is to arrange for end-use monitoring to ensure that there is no reasonable likelihood that these items could be diverted to the Cuban military, used in acts of torture or other human rights abuses, or re-exported or used in the production of biotechnological products. Monitoring of sales can be performed by independent non-governmental organizations, international organizations, or foreign diplomats. Since 1992, 36 of 38 license requests have been approved to U.S. companies and their subsidiaries to sell medicine and medical equipment to Cuba. Sales have included such items as thalamonal, depo-provera, pediatric solutions, syringes, and other items. The Department of Commerce declined the other two requests for licenses it received for failure to meet legal standards. Both of these exceptions to the general policy of approving commercial medical sales occurred in 1994. Moreover, the U.S. embargo on Cuba affects only U.S. companies and their subsidiaries. Other nations and companies are free to trade with Cuba. Should Cuba choose not to purchase from the U.S., it can purchase any medicine or medical equipment it needs from other countries. Such third-country transactions only cost an estimated 2%-3% more than purchases from the U.S. as a result of higher shipping costs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 02 Aug 06 - 10:28 PM http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/4/66 Canada was in 11th place (72.0 years) and the USA in 29th place (69.3 years). Other countries with reasonably high HALE in the Americas included Argentina (65.3 years), Chile (67.3 years), Costa Rica (67.2 years), Cuba (68.3 years), Foreign Tourists on a raft Cuban Citizens on a raft bound for Florida Toilets for tourists Toilets for Cuban university students Home of a basically OK Cuban Billboard stating "in Cuba old people have dignity and security" The real plight of old people in Cuba Want more? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: bobad Date: 02 Aug 06 - 10:44 PM Have a look here Old Guy: http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF0902/Shames/Shames.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 02 Aug 06 - 11:02 PM http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4422567.stm 'Riot' takes place in Cuban jail By Stephen Gibbs BBC News, Havana Wives of political prisoners in Cuba march towards the Palace of the Revolution Human rights activists provided news of the disturbance Human rights activists in Cuba say a riot has taken place in one of the country's biggest prisons. The government has not commented on the reports, but less than three weeks ago admitted to a "minor incident" in the same jail. The riot at the Combinado del Este prison just outside Havana is believed to have taken place on Tuesday night. It seems a group of prisoners were protesting at conditions in the jail and at some stage a fire broke out. Prominent human rights activist Elizardo Sanchez says several prisoners are now seriously ill with burns injuries or the effects of inhaling fumes. None of Cuba's imprisoned dissidents are believed to have been involved in the disturbance. 'Sub-human' conditions In the incident three weeks ago, there were rumours that five prisoners had been killed during a riot at the jail. Cuba's foreign minister said no-one had been killed or seriously injured and that not a shot had been fired by prison guards. Per capita, Cuba has one of the highest prison populations in the world. Dissidents have described conditions as "sub-human". Since 1989, the Cuban government has not allowed the International Red Cross to inspect its prisons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Peter Kasin Date: 02 Aug 06 - 11:06 PM Who yet knows what will happen. News reports say that Raoul Castro, if he really does become the new leader, is not as hard-nosed as Fidel. Whether he would be committed to instituting significant political reform is something else. It's doubtful he would repudiate his brother and his brother's ideology in any way, but I hope I'm proven wrong on that score. Chanteyranger |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Ernest Date: 03 Aug 06 - 04:06 AM Beware: Thread drift! Just a question on the side: If people supporting Bush are to be called "Bushites", can people who support Castro be called "Castrates"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Les from Hull Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:19 AM I don't think anyone here is suggesting that Cuba has the perfect political system, the perfect economy or the perfect anything else. I'm just suggesting that it might be a bit better if the USA took its foot off Cuba's neck! After all the USA has the best political system money can buy! But you would be better using that money to solve some of your own problems, rather than exporting problems to other countries. What happened to that nice USA of over a century ago that refused to get involved in foreign affairs? And I'm even more disappointed with the current UK administration that seems to back the USA in its bid to dominate the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: SINSULL Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:24 AM From the news reports last night, it looks as if he is stepping up again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:10 AM People that support Castro are both Communists and idiots. A trade embargo which does not include medical supplies and equipment by the way, does not constitute a foot on Cuba's back. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba A U.S. arms embargo had been in force since March 1958 when armed conflict broke out in Cuba between rebels and the Batista government. In July 1960, in response to the nationalizations and expropriations by the Castro government, the United States reduced the Cuban import quota of sugar by 700,000 tons; the Soviet Union responded by agreeing to purchase the sugar instead, and further Cuban expropriations followed. A partial economic embargo was imposed by U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower on October 19, 1960, and diplomatic relations were broken on January 3, 1961—two years after Castro's rise to power. The Soviet Union promptly stepped in, offering Cuba "preferential" trade prices, mainly for the sugar that Cuba exported and the crude oil the USSR sold them. In response to Cuba's alignment with the Soviet Union during the Cold War, President John F. Kennedy extended Eisenhower's measures by Executive Order, first widening the scope of the trade restrictions on February 7 (announced on February 3) and again on March 23, 1962. (According to former aide Pierre Salinger, Kennedy asked him to purchase thousands of Cuban cigars for Kennedy's future use immediately before the extended embargo was to come into effect.) Following the Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy imposed travel restrictions on February 8, 1963, and the Cuban Assets Control Regulations were issued on July 8, 1963, under the Trading With the Enemy Act in response to Cubans hosting Soviet nuclear weapons, which led to the Cuban Missile Crisis. Under these restrictions, Cuban assets in the U.S. were frozen and the existing restrictions were consolidated. http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cuba001.html An October 28 U.N. resolution opposing the U.S. embargo of Cuba is a misguided attempt to blame the United States for Cuba's failed economic policies and divert attention from that nation's abysmal human rights record, according to State Department Area Advisor Oliver Garza. Explaining his vote against the resolution, Garza said arguments that the United States is denying Cuba access to food and water are baseless. He noted that the United States has donated or sold more than $1 billion in medicine and medical equipment to Cuba since 1992 and licensed the export of more $5 billion in agricultural exports since 2001. Moreover, Garza pointed out, remittances from the United States to Cuba approach $1 billion annually. "Let there be no doubt," he said, "if Cubans are jobless, hungry, or lack medical care, as the regime admits, it is because of the failings of the current government." Garza added that the Cuban government is not a victim as it contends, but rather a tyrant that has shown no interest in implementing economic or political reforms and "aggressively punishes anyone who dares to have a differing opinion." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:21 AM Fidel... Ma belle These are words that go together well Oh, my Fidel Fidel You're swell Those who diss you really, really smell Oh, my Fidel Te Quiero, te quiero, te quiero That's all I have to say Until I find a way I will say the only words to you that you'll understand (chuckle...) Rave on, you imperialist, bloodthirsty, Walmart-addled, Coca-Cola swilling dupes. You embargoed him. It failed. You invaded him. It failed. You hired the Mafia to kill him. They failed. The CIA attempted to put a chemical on him to make his beard fall out. They failed. Canadians vacation in Cuba every year and you can't stop us, so Ha, Ha, Ha! God must love Fidel... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Les from Hull Date: 03 Aug 06 - 01:36 PM Het Old Guy - I think you meant to say 'in my opinion' Castro supporters are Communists and idiots. You say that like communists are a bad thing. I think its Marxist-Leninists you have the problem with. Would you welcome a Batista-style government back? I certainly don't go along with the Castro Cuban African adventure (that was more down to Guevara, though), but that's the way these Marxists are. But I don't think that quoting the US Goverment is the way to encourage a frank open debate (in my opinion). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Greg F. Date: 03 Aug 06 - 02:28 PM Would you welcome a Batista-style government back? Don't try to change his mind with facts.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 03 Aug 06 - 03:11 PM Would you like King John back? Don't forget that the US supported Fidel in his revolution but not when he turned socialist. So you say communists are good? Is that your opinion or a fact? Ever lived in a comunist country? Give us some facts on how great communisim is. Is the UK a socialist country? First of all what happens when someone in a communist country finds fault with their great leader? The dissidents that are executed are the lucky ones. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Aug 06 - 03:33 PM Of course the USA supported Fidel...he was a far more decent alternative to Batista, even in American minds until he kicked out the Mafia, the American-owned casinos, the whorehouses, and the big sugar companies and other big corporations! Uh-oh! That offended a lot of very rich people in the USA, people who have major influence on American foreign policy, people who used to vacation and gamble in Cuba and get drunk and screw Cuban prostitutes. Never mind that Castro gave the land back to ordinary Cubans, and gave them schools and doctors...it took money out of American organized crime and American corporate hands. That meant Castro had suddenly become an outlaw in American eyes. $$$Money$$$ was all that mattered in that decision. When Castro went to New York, he was expecting to find friends in the US government. They wouldn't even talk to him. That's when he turned to the only other big backer in town...without whom he could not survive...the Russians. It was inevitable that he would, having been given the cold shoulder by the USA. I'm not particularly in favor of Communism, no. Neither am I particularly in favor of Fascism which incorporates laissez-faire capitalism, drug-dealing, and rampant crime...which is what you have in many small countries which cooperate with American interests. In either case you get a police state. In the case of American allies, you get a police state with no social safety net and absolutely no hope for the poor. I live in a country which has the good sense to mix socialism and capitalism to some extent, which is the best way to go. Both socialism and capitalism have many good aspects, and there is absolutely no reason to cling 100% to one or the other when you can have both. Castro was driven into the arms of the Russians, because a bunch of rich lobbyists and crooks in the USA got offended when he nationalized their holdings. He could have been an American ally, and have been a socialist with no conflict of interest whatsoever. All you had to do was tell the Mafia and the United Sugar Company and a few other such rich criminal clowns to shut up and take their losses. Let me ask your last question back to you, Old Guy. Do you know what happens when someone in a Latin American fascist capitalist country that is an ally of America finds fault with their great leader? The dissidents that get executed are the lucky ones. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Aug 06 - 03:42 PM Oh shit. Screwed up the italics again... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 03 Aug 06 - 04:29 PM 2005: Forbes magazine lists Castro among the world's richest people, estimating his net worth at $550 million. In 2006, Forbes increases his estimated worth to $900 million. First of all what happens when someone in a communist country finds fault with their great leader? What's the answer? Don't try to dilute that with some anti American bullshit. And I still do not see any evidence of how wonderful communisim is. I see failed communisim in the USSR. I see misery in North Korea. The Cubans are as poor and miserable as any other Latin American country. The great free medical system is Cuba is a hoax. The high ranking commies and tourists get all the good stuff. The people get shit. Why does Castro tell them the medical shortges are because of a US embargo? There must be something lacking if he is making excuses. There is no embargo on medicine and supplies anyway. Cuba manufactures and exports medical Equipment and medicine anyway so why should there be any shortages. HAVANA.- The organizing committee of the 9th International Medical Technology Fair "Health for All" held in Havana awarded gold medals to 38 of the 146 products on display. Seven of gold medal winners are manufactured in Cuba, including multi-channel digital electrocardiograph CARDIOCID-BS, manufactured by CombioMed. HAVANA.- The Cuban firm MEDICUBA has confirmed its position as the nation's leading medicine exporting company, with a high pharmaceutical production in 14 plants. Over 900 pharmaceutical products, including antibiotics, eye drops, capsules and natural products, are distributed and sold in over 20 countries: Argentina, China, Russia, Ukraine, Brazil and Colombia, among others." So the US embargo is hurting them? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Aug 06 - 04:40 PM I was among the people, Old Guy. I was not staying in tourist hotels. Yeah, most of them are poor. But they're considerably better off than they were under Batista, and they're considerably better off than the poor in most of the rest of Latin America. I don't give a hoot about communism. I'm no admirer of it. Neither am I an admirer of the WalMart approach to society. Can you grasp that? Your opinions are based on fear, hatred, prejudice, and pre-conceived notions. I've been to Cuba. I've been to Mexico. I've been to Trinidad. They all have their charms. They all have their flaws. You can get in serious shit in any of them in no time flat if you do something stupid or are unaware of the local conditions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Les from Hull Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:23 PM Thanks LH for your well-reasoned arguments. I think that Old Guy is going to have the same knee-jerk reaction to the word 'communism' however it is used, from that practised by the early Christians to the worst excesses of Stalinism. State communism has a pretty bad track record, although it has probably benefitted more Cubans and Vietnamese than under their previous Governments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:25 PM Maybe they are better off that they were under Batista, The US supported the overthrow of Batista but when Castro turned socialist they no longer supported him. I can grasp what you are saying. But what I am saying about Castro is that he is a dictaor, a tyrant and nobody wants him as the leader of Cuba except the high ranking communists that are treated differently that the average Cuban. He uses the US as an excuse for anything that is wrong in Cuba. I have been to Mexico and Jamaica and I was damned glad to get back on US soil. I see people here bitching and whining about conditions and a government that the Cubans die for. I have been to Canada several times and it is pretty good except Quebecois are assholes. I still don't want to live there because I am used to the US. I used to watch a Canadian news chanel before Google bought it. It was interesting but it showed a lot of animosity for the Canadian Government. Way up in Maine there was a Walmart right near the border. People were streaming in from Canada to scarf up on that awful Walmart stuff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:42 PM How does it benefit North Korea? How did it benefit the USSR? Could a democracy have benefited the Cubans more than communisim? Ask the people that escaped. Would you be better off living under communisim? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Big Mick Date: 03 Aug 06 - 06:39 PM Old Guy/Woody/Fat Albert ..... whatever the hell you call yourself today, you wouldn't know a Socialist from a Trotskyite from a Marxist Leninist from a grape. All your comments are based on the Red Scare mindset. It takes away from whatever credibility you have and marks you as a McCarthy style mouth. Fidel is no angel. He has murdered, and stole in the name of the Revolution. He has also brought some form of stability to his country and managed to outlive the USSR. History will judge him as a unique character. When he dies, most of his revolution will die with him in a mad dash to capitalism. But the seeds of socialist ideal will still be there. It's the way of the world. For what it's worth, Old Woody Albert, there hasn't been a real "communist" society yet. The Stalinist era destroyed any chance of that. He was just another despot that got hold of a system and destroyed any chance it had of a real try. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:02 PM Mick: Are you pro communisim/marxisim/leninisim/trotskyisim or what? You sound pretty unsure of what doctrine to follow or do you flip flop around? McCarthyism is the paranoid hunt for communist infiltrators in the US. Do you think communisim is good or bad? Here is my original post: "Cuba trades with every other country in the world. How come trade with the US is such a essential thing to the well being of another country? It's bullshit along with all the crap about what a utopia it is in Cuba. Is North Korea a utopia too?" A. Does Cuba trade with all the other countries in the world? B. How does one country cause all of the problems in another country simply becasue it won't trade with them? C. Is Cuba a utopia? In particulaer does Cuba have the best medical system as claimed for ALL Cubans? D. has Communisim created a utopia in North Korea? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:16 PM A liberal democracy and a prosperous modern society such as you and I are blessed with in North America are a huge benefit to anyone, Old Guy, but such alternatives have never been offered to people in many parts of the world. They have never had the option. And if someone offered it to them, they might not handle it successfully. The reasons for that go way, way back. All of Latin America is suffering the collective legacy of having been under tyrranical colonial rule by either the Spanish or the Portuguese for centuries...those were nations which were ruled by autocratic kings...absolute dictators. The societies now in Latin America came out of that legacy and were forged in the flames of violent revolution against colonial rule...amidst terrible poverty. The revolutionaries did not come out of a society benefiting from English common law and relative prosperity...which was the condition in the 13 colonies in the American revolution. Having never experienced anything but autocratic rule from a tiny elite, most of the Latin American societies soon reverted to similarly autocratic rule by rich landowners soon after they threw out their colonial masters. Their attempts at democracy were generally pretty short-lived...or were badly compromised by the general lack of education and corruption in the political parties that arose. In Mexico, for example, there were brief periods of attempted reform by some leaders. Benito Juarez was one such. He was an idealist. But the rapid return to corruption and domination of society by a small number of wealthy families was seemingly inevitable. You cannot just compare life in Cuba to life in the USA as if they started out on an equal playing field in history. They did not. People make this same error in regards to Russia. The Russians have also experienced a bitter history of autocratic, iron-fisted rule. To expect them at ANY point to suddenly, instantly, convert to the same type of open modern society we have, with all the rights and freedoms that we have in the English-speaking countries or in western Europe is just hopelessly naive. It can't be done, and it won't be done. There has to be a very gradual transition. You can't look at what Castro did in Cuba and put it on the same level as if he had done those things in South Dakota or Ohio. He wasn't in South Dakota or Ohio. The situation was radically different. He was in a country which threw off Spanish rule in 1898 after years of bloody revolution...which finally succeeded because the USA went to war with Spain. The USA went to war primarily because it saw easy strategic gains (deep water ports in the Caribbean and the Pacific to be taken for its new navy, and valuable lands to be taken in Cuba and the Phillipines). The propaganda reason given for the war was to avenge the sinking of the USS Maine and to prevent Spanish atrocities against the Cuban people. Believe me when I tell you that the US government didn't give a tinker's damn about Spanish atrocities against Cubans...but they saw a golden opportunity to scavenge some valuable stuff off a dying empire, and turn themselves into a transoceanic power. At any rate, the Cubans (who may have sunk the Maine themselves...or maybe it exploded due to a smouldering coal fire in its bunkers) expected the Americans to leave after the Spanish were beaten. The Americans didn't leave. Surprise! ;-) Cuba made a few sporadic attempts at liberal multi-party democracy over the years. All of those attempts failed, and were quickly replaced by authoritarian local governments of a despotic sort. Batista's was the last of the old style governments. If you read books about Castro's youth you would find it very interesting. He was the son of a wealthy family, part of the elite. He had seemingly nothing to gain by opposing the elite that ruled Cuba...and everything to lose...but he became a revolutionary anyway. His courage and his idealism in those days was utterly extraordinary. The fact that he won his revolution was extraordinary. It's a simply incredible story. It rivals anything that happened in the American revolution, and it took people with very similar ideals and the same amount of guts to do it. I don't believe Castro could have created the kind of free multi-party society you and I enjoy in North America. Not with the best will in the world. If he had tried to, it would have fallen apart in 3 years or less, and been replaced by another dictatorship. I think he was a pragmatist. He did what he believed would succeed, and that's what you must do in any country. You have to know the ground you're fighting on in order to win a battle. After visiting Cuba, I became interested in their history. I read several books about it in the years following that visit. Cuba is a land filled with the passion of revolution, but it is not a land that seems to know how to settle down once the fighting is over...unless it does so under a very heavy hand. When you have a multiplicity of views expressed openly there you soon have a chaotic situation that becomes another revolution...or you shut it down...like putting a lid on a boiling pot...and it simmers quietly, waiting for someone to remove the lid. Same deal in Russia. Putin can handle Russia, because he's tough enough to. He's willing to be ruthless. Gorbachev couldn't handle it. He gave them their freedom and they turned it into a total chaotic mess. Yeltsin pandered to the people's superficial appetites and expectations (which he could not fulfill), got drunk, and the mess deepened. They needed a strong man again, and now they've got one. I'm telling you that if Castro had tried to be the kind of democratic be-nice-to-everyone guy you think he should be in Cuba...his government would have fallen very soon and it would have been replaced by something far worse. Cuba is not Kansas. You and I were lucky to be born in societies with a liberal-democratic, British common law tradition. It is to that that we owe our present freedoms...not to American capitalism or to socialism either, but to our common British tradition of law and open parliamentary society with elected officials. We are the sons of some of the most fortunate generations the world has ever known. People in Latin America do not have that tradition to stand upon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 03 Aug 06 - 11:30 PM America was a colony living under a king. America had a revolution and won it's independance. How does that differ from the Latin American countries? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Aug 06 - 11:57 PM Well, I just explained that, didn't I? The American revolution was a revolution of equals against equals...basically English gentry against English gentry. It occurred amongst a population who were mostly well-educated, who were accustomed to ideas of social freedoms, liberal political notions, the right of assembly, forming a parliament, and so on. The disagreement among these English gentry was as to whether an obviously incompetent monarch who was very far away should still be running things (through his representatives) or whether the locals should do it through their own representatives. After the revolution was won, a significant movement arose amongst the people to crown George Washington king of the new country! Washington rejected that notion. A King of England in those days, by the way, was far from being an absolute ruler, though he was the titular head of government. He had to contend with a lively and strong parliament, a pretty modern legal system, and all kinds of other checks and balances. What you had in the Spanish and Portuguese colonies was a far more archaic, enormously less democratic society with an almost medieval authority system tied in with a truly medieval and very powerful Catholic Church...a radically more primitive situation than in the 13 colonies. And under those colonial systems lived millions of poverty-stricken, illiterate peasants...mostly descendants of the Indians whom the Spanish had conquered or mixed blood peoples of European and Indian descent. Those peasants were the natural victims of the dictators to come. Americans in the 1770's were a sophisticated population, well aware of the ideal of human equality and the rights of people in a free society. Latin Americans were in comparison a people who had barely been exposed to such notions at all...they were used to the iron hand of the church and the nobility. Is it surprising, then, that modern democracies developed in the USA and Canada (which had no revolution) while what occurred from Mexico on down was mostly tyrranical rule by dictators and military governments? When you are born into a tradition of democracy, you understand it intimately, you take it for granted, and it is natural for it to be set up and maintained. When you are born into a tradition of absolute rule by tryants, it is tremendously hard to make the leap into democracy...specially when people are too poor and uneducated to understand how to do it. Castro was contending with a very different dynamic in Cuba than he would have been in America...if he had been born an American, he would never have seen reason for the kind of revolution he led in Cuba. He would probably have become a University student with radical notions and been a campus organizer or something instead. You cannot judge Fidel Castro or the Cuban revolution by the standards of our North American life. It's a whole different scenario. And it's a whole different scenario in Russia too, and in China. What works here doesn't work there. It may work there someday, but not yet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Greg F. Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:21 AM America was a colony living under a king. America had a revolution and won it's independance. How does that differ from the Latin American countries? This and similar questions posed by Fat Old Woody - if not posted simply to shitstir- display such a fundamental ignorance of American and World History, of Economics, and of political/social movements of the last several centuries that discussion with him/her/them/it is really rather pointless. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 04 Aug 06 - 06:19 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Aug 06 - 06:21 PM I only hope you are enjoying the subject of this thread as much as I am, Old Guy. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:57 PM Yes. But it seems to me that if the American revolution was successful because it was based on democracy, The proves that democracy is better than Communism. And it seems to me that all of those Latin American revolutionaries believed in Communism which is why those countries are so screwed up. You say Democracy won't work there. Where will it work? Where does it work? Argentina Australia Austria Belgium Benin Brazil Bulgaria Canada Cape Verde Chile Croatia Czech Republic Denmark Dominican Republic El Salvador Estonia Finland France Germany Ghana Greece Hungary Iceland India Indonesia Ireland Israel Italy Japan Kiribati Latvia Lesotha Lithuania, Mali Mexico Micronesia Mongolia Namibia Netherlands New Zealand Norway Palau Peru Poland Portugal Romania Sao Tome & Principe Senegal Serbia & Montenegro Slovakia Slovenia South Africa South Korea Spain, Suriname Sweden Taiwan Trinidad and Tobago Tuvalu Ukraine United Kingdom United States Uruguay |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 04 Aug 06 - 11:42 PM This is interesting: http://www.freedomhouse.org/uploads/pdf/Charts2006.pdf |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 04 Aug 06 - 11:58 PM Here's your bag LH http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_forms_of_government |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Aug 06 - 12:32 AM I am not defending Communism. I'm all in favour of democracy, Old Guy, as long as it's real democracy. I'm not convinced that what you now have in the USA is real democracy...at the federal level. It certainly is real democracy at the local or the civic level, but that's a different kettle of fish. I don't frankly believe that our political parties (in Canada and in the USA) are actually representing the ordinary people anymore, and I don't know what the ordinary people can do about it. (By the way, how come Russia was not on your list of democracies? They have multi-party elections now, after all, pretty much like we do. They have had them since the Soviet Union fell. According to you, a system like that is a democracy.) ;-) I'm saying that it's one thing to have window dressing that looks like a democracy, it's another thing altogether to have real democracy. You cannot have real democracy when all the major political parties in a country are funded and controlled by a very small rich elite...and that is what's happening in the USA and Canada. In Cuba, you have a small Communist elite running the place...and they don't pretend otherwise...but they do have elections on a regular basis for local civic and government officials...and people vote for the local candidate they like best out of 2 or more alternatives. In both cases, however, at the very top it's the controlling elite that calls the shots. The Republican and Democratic parties in the USA are owned by that controlling elite, and there is nothing that you, as an American voter, can do about it, because the only candidates you will ever be offered at the higher levels are those the elite hand-picked as its servants. You can call that democracy if you want to, but it's just a stage play put on to make you think you really have a voice. You don't. Bush and Kerry work for the same $ySStem, and there's nothing you can do about that when you step into the polling booth. The way I see it, both you and the Cubans...and us Canadians...are screwed. We can't change the controlling powers at the top. We have no way of doing that at all. But...you and I are just somewhat luckier than Cubans. We were born in societies that are more prosperous than many other places and still relatively free, because they sprang out of a prosperous and relatively free British society and social tradition in the 1700's...and they have remained relatively advanced in that respect. It's a holding pattern. Be glad it holds. The day Bush declares martial law because of some new "emergency" and starts arresting people and holding them without trial, your relative freedom will be over. And mine may be over not too long after that. Of course, you can always opt to serve the $ySStem in that case, turn in your neighbours as subversives if they complain, and maybe even get to carry a gun for the ruling elite. Many would be happy to do that kind of work, I'm sure. Many were in Nazi Germany. I'm telling you that your phony democracy is as brittle as an empty eggshell right now. Pray to God that it holds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST Date: 05 Aug 06 - 04:29 AM Haven't read right through this thread yet so my points may already have been covered. Earlier this year Irish television ran a film based on what would happen when Castro died (or left office - but preferably died). Apart from the elderly and somewhat sad nutters who were itching to get back and take their revenge, it concentrated on the business opportunities that would be opened up, particularly the hotels that could be built to attract wealthy tourists. The speakers said that some adjustments would have to be made to Cuba's economy, the main ones being, a cessation of the welfare system, an end to free health care and education, and 'a move towards Cubans taking full responsibilty for their own lives'. My early awareness of Cuba was when, under Batista, it was known as 'America's open sewer'. It would seem that there are those who would have it revert to that role. Personally, I hope Castro lives to be a thousand; anybody who has given the finger to the most powerful and avaricious nation on earth for half a century has my undying respect. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 05 Aug 06 - 10:22 AM Why isn't Puerto Rico America's open sewer? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST Date: 05 Aug 06 - 01:04 PM It probably is now that the Yanks haven't got Cuba any more. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Aug 06 - 01:14 PM I am 100% in agreement with you, Mr Carroll. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old guy Date: 05 Aug 06 - 01:22 PM What does probably mean? Yes or no? Is or is not? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 05 Aug 06 - 01:28 PM Mr. Carroll *probably* sits around in his silk smoking jacket sipping a cup of Earl Grey with his pinkie raised and his hunting hound at his side saying "Those damned yanks, we had them under control at one point". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Aug 06 - 01:34 PM That's what I do, Old Guy. Just like you say. I sit there in my hunting jacket in my Edwardian study with my old Empire Club pals, puffing on my Sherlock Holmes long pipe, sipping my Earl Grey tea with one pinkie sticking out, my faithful basset hound curled at my feet. LOL! You've got us figured out, eh, old chap? Capital! What say about a cup of hot toddy, old sport? Put some colour back in your cheeks, what? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 05 Aug 06 - 01:35 PM Old guy *probably* sits aound in his crusty BVDs gulping 16 oz Budwieser's and munching on BBQ pork rinds while flipping back an forth between the monster turck rally and Nascar on the dish and remarking "Those damned Limeys don't know shit" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Les from Hull Date: 05 Aug 06 - 01:44 PM Well as I 'damned Limey' I had know to know what a BVD was. God old Google informed me it was Bovine Virus Diarrhoea. So for once you're right OG, we don't know shit! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Greg F. Date: 05 Aug 06 - 01:57 PM the American revolution was successful because it was based on democracy Hardly, Fat Old Woody, you're just displaying the inconquerable ignorance mentioned ptreviously. Most Americans following the War Of Independence couldn't vote, Senators were selected by State Legislatures, there were substantial numbers of these pesky non-persons called Negro Slaves & on & on & on. Hardly a democracy by any measure. Better hit them books for a few years & then get back to us...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old guy Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:22 PM Well what was it based on and why was it sucessfull? Learn me perfesser? As far as I can see, those revolutionaries got together and wrote documents that formed a democratic government but you will sure have to correct me on that. BVDs are sort of like Fruit of the Looms but with racing stripes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:36 PM Bermuda is probably an open sewer now that the Limeys don't have Hong Kong any more. Eh wot? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:46 PM There were plenty of good, progressive ideas enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, the United States Constitution, and the American Bill of Rights. Quite advanced for the time. Some of those ideas had been inspired by the political and social ideals of the American Indians. Some had come from philosophical notions put forth by European writers. Some were the brainchild of social radicals among the founders of the new USA. All of those people, those founding fathers of America, would be hated by the neo-conservative forces that are governing America if they were alive today...and they would probably be called "communists" or "terrorists" or something like that. ;-) You see, the neo-cons are trying very hard to forget that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights ever existed. It gets in their way too much, as their desire is to implement a police state. One way of getting around such legalities is to declare a supposedly temporary "state of emergency" and grant the executive office emergency powers that override the normal laws. That's what Hitler did after the burning of the Reichstag. That's what Bush would like to do. 911 helped these guys implement their foreign war plans, but it wasn't enough to do the whole job of taking over domestically. Something bigger and more shocking is needed for that... Something considerably worse than 911. Consider the possibilities. When and if it happens, its real architects will be the men you elected to power, but they'll blame it on someone else. "terrorists" And you'll probably buy it too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Les from Hull Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:47 PM I hope those stripes were on there when you got them! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:54 PM Nope Budweiser first, stripes later. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:58 PM I've been to Bermuda, but not recently. It's nice enough. It's a very small place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 05 Aug 06 - 03:15 PM Mr philosopher LH: What did Abe Lincoln do? Was he a Neocon? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Wolfgang Date: 05 Aug 06 - 03:52 PM A Visit with Cuba's Persecuted (link to translation of article in DER SPIEGEL) A glimpse into the life of Cuban dissidents, Cuban prisons in Guantanamo and why Cuban dissidents don't expect much from Bush. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 05 Aug 06 - 05:23 PM The Brazilian daily Folha de Sao Paulo cited normally reliable sources in the government in Brasilia as saying that Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva was notified from Havana about the elder Castro's medical condition. A leftist with lifelong good relations with the Cuban regime, Lula was supposedly told that Castro has a serious, malignant stomach tumour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Aug 06 - 05:39 PM Everything gets all of us eventually, Castro included. Don't gloat over other people's aging problems, that's my advice. It can come back to haunt you in time. Abe Lincoln was an interesting fellow, Old Guy. I'm not sure whether or not he would be remembered as a great president if he had not served during the Civil War period. Sometimes men have greatness thrust upon them by extraordinary outer circumstances. Still, he did lead the Union very resolutely, and he came up with some powerful ideas. No, he was most definitely NOT a neo-con, because he himself warned that the US government already in his day was in great danger of being taken over by powerful vested commercial/financial interests...and that if so, it would destroy American democracy. His predictions in that regard have come true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 05 Aug 06 - 11:35 PM Do you think Bush should lock up those pasky Democrats like Lincoln? As the Civil War started, in the very beginning of Lincoln's presidential term, a group of "Peace Democrats" proposed a peaceful resolution to the developing Civil War by offering a truce with the South, and forming a constitutional convention to amend the U.S. Constitution to protect States' rights. The proposal was ignored by the Unionists of the North and not taken seriously by the South. However, the Peace Democrats, also called copperheads by their enemies, publicly criticized Lincoln's belief that violating the U.S. Constitution was required to save it as a whole. With Congress not in session until July, Lincoln assumed all powers not delegated in the Constitution, including the power to suspend habeas corpus. In 1861, Lincoln had already suspended civil law in territories where resistance to the North's military power would be dangerous. In 1862, when copperhead democrats began criticizing Lincoln's violation of the Constitution, Lincoln suspended habeas corpus throughout the nation and had many copperhead democrats arrested under military authority because he felt that the State Courts in the north west would not convict war protesters such as the copperheads. He proclaimed that all persons who discouraged enlistments or engaged in disloyal practices would come under Martial Law. Among the 13,000 people arrested under martial law was a Maryland Secessionist, John Merryman. Immediately, Hon. Roger B. Taney, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States issued a writ of habeas corpus commanding the military to bring Merryman before him. The military refused to follow the writ. Justice Taney, in Ex parte MERRYMAN, then ruled the suspension of habeas corpus unconstitutional because the writ could not be suspended without an Act of Congress. President Lincoln and the military ignored Justice Taney's ruling. Finally, in 1866, after the war, the Supreme Court officially restored habeas corpus in Ex-parte Milligan, ruling that military trials in areas where the civil courts were capable of functioning were illegal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Amos Date: 06 Aug 06 - 01:18 AM What a knowledgeable essay on habeus corpus, OG!! Cheers. DId you write that while in law school? Say...doesn't that mean the use of military tribunals without other due process on the POWs down in Gitmo are...um...illegal? Oh, say.... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Aug 06 - 01:26 AM Are you kidding me? LOL! Why would Bush lock up Democrats? They work for the same military-industrial ruling $ySStem as the Republicans do. Your elections are a very expensive and drawn-out fraud, put on only to make you ordinary folks imagine you have a choice of some kind about who really rules you. You don't. A very rich elite rules you, through their political front men..."faces" like George Bush or Bill Clinton...and there's not a goddamn thing you can do about it. There will always be struggles and differences of opinion in great issues, and there will always be some individuals who oppose and speak out against any official decision...but those individuals will not be allowed to stand long in the way of the main plan...and the main plan will have been decided before the debates ever occur, I assure you. It's all about the $$$money$$$. Money is power. It's not about democracy, it's not about justice, it's not about ideals of any kind whatsoever, it's about the money. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST Date: 06 Aug 06 - 03:39 AM Old Guy, Have been going through your democracy list; Argentina – taken over by military coup, thousands tortured, murdered and disappeared. Perpetrators never brought to justice but are waiting in the wings to answer the call if ever needed again. Australia – slaughtered indigenous population for their land. Now busy kicking out asylum seekers Brazil – murdering small farmers in order to tear down the rain forests. Chile – see Argentina (coup leader personal friend of Margaret Thatcher) Croatia – participated in genocidal war, culprits never brought to justice. Czech Republic – sex tourism, including child prostitution now rife since return to democracy. Greece – see Argentina and Chile Ireland – broke its own neutrality laws and is now allowing US war criminals (and their victims) to use its airports. Israel – slaughtering Palestinian civilians in particular the citizens of Qana in order to push its boundaries as far as the Litani River. Hiding behind the dead of Auschwitz to justify its actions. Mexico – rigging elections like their American cousins Serbia and Montenegro – see Croatia South Africa – apartheid system under democracy was guilty of impoverishing, enslaving and murdering millions of its citizens. United Kingdom – has crawled up the backside of US and now lies dormant awaiting orders. Would invade the Isle of Man if instructed to do so. United States – (where to begin) Has invaded and/or bombed nearly sixty countries since end of WW2 (mostly 3rd world) using chemical weapons such as Napalm, Agent Orange and Phosphorus. Clandestine organisations interfered in the policies of hundreds of countries freely using terrorism, torture and murder. Is tearing the environment to shreds in order to drive around in SUVs. Uses world as personal petrol pump and invades countries when fuel supplies look like they are running low. Freely and openly uses illegal imprisonment and torture against prisoners of war. Election rigging now an established tactic (particularly in Florida – 90 odd miles from that nasty undemocratic Cuba. Etc, etc, etc. However all is forgiven because by the year 2020 will have wiped out its own population thanks to its insane gun laws. Run this democracy thing by me again; didn't I read somewhere that the Nazis were elected? By the way, not an English gent but a simple electrician trying to make sense of this nasty world – we don't go in for smoking jackets in the west of Ireland! However, don't let this deter you, you're bound to get something right! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 06 Aug 06 - 02:21 PM Now let's hear about the good countries with good gun laws and unrigged elections. Cherio and Pip Pip my good man. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Aug 06 - 02:24 PM NEVER say "Cheerio and Pip Pip" to an Irishman, Old Guy!!!!! They don't like it. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Ebbie Date: 06 Aug 06 - 02:33 PM Very eloquent, Old Guy. "A majority of Peace Democrats supported war to save the Union, but a strong and active minority asserted that the Republicans had provoked the South into secession; that the Republicans were waging the war in order to establish their own domination, suppress civil and states rights, and impose "racial equality"; and that military means had failed and would never restore the Union." Did You Write This Too? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 06 Aug 06 - 02:59 PM The Republican party was formed to end slavery. And it did. After the Democrats failed to keep slavery from being abolished, they formed thet KKK to keep blacks, Jews and Catholics in their place. And it did for a while. Just ask Mr. Byrd. Now the Democrats accuse Republicans of being racists. Sheesh! I did not write the stuff about the civil war. I cut and pasted it like Amos does about 50 times a day. I forgot to put in the URL but searching a string at Google will reveal that I didn't make it up. I'll take back the Cherio and Pip Pip. I didn't notice he was Irish. A buddy of mine just called and said his brother in Bellahgy Ireland just died. Now these Northern Irish, They know a thing or two about terrorisim don't they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Aug 06 - 04:09 PM Terrorism has a long and glorious history in Ireland. It's called "terrorism" when the other guy does it, and "freedom-fighting" or "defending king and country" when your guys do it. The usual story. Terrorism, like beauty, exists in the eye of the beholder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Greg F. Date: 06 Aug 06 - 06:36 PM Well what was it based on and why was it sucessfull? Learn me perfesser? Sorry, Fat Old Woody. I'm not about to do your work for you. Get off your ass and actually read a book. Put in some effort towards becoming one of the "informed electorate" the founding fathers- whom you profess to revere- envisioned as a necessary precursor to & constituent of democratic government. Cutting and pasting crap you don't even begin to understand isn't worth shit. The Republican party was formed to end slavery... After the Democrats failed to keep slavery from being abolished... Now the Democrats accuse Republicans of being racists &etc. Absolute bullshit- & your ignorance is showing, AGAIN. Only an idiot would contend that time has somehow been suspended for 150 years. That was then & this is now- and things ain't the same. Pick up a book. And read it. For comprehension. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:34 AM I will read what I want and paste what I want. You don't present a whole lot except Wrong Wrong Wrong, Are you the Tom Daschle of Mudville? In the early 1940s, when Byrd was approximately 24 years old, he joined the Ku Klux Klan, which he had seen holding parades in Matoaka, West Virginia, as a child, his father having also been a Klan member[4]. Byrd was unanimously elected as the Exalted Cyclops of his local chapter. [5] Byrd, in his autobiography, attributed the beginnings of his political career to this incident, though he lamented that they involved the Klan. According to Byrd's recollection, Baskin told him, "You have a talent for leadership, Bob... The country needs young men like you in the leadership of the nation." Byrd recalls that "suddenly lights flashed in my mind! Someone important had recognized my abilities. I was only 23 or 24, and the thought of a political career had never struck me. But strike me that night, it did." The KKK was seen as a stepping stone for aspiring southern politicians — one of the reasons attributed to Byrd's membership. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:52 AM In the fall of 1957, the school board of Little Rock, Arkansas, agreed to a court order to admit black students to Central High School. The governor of the state, Orville Faubus, called out the National Guard to prevent the students from entering, and when the court again ordered the students admitted, Faubus withdrew the troops. But when the students tried to enroll, a mob attacked the school and drove them off. Eisenhower could no longer sit by passively and watch federal authority flouted. He ordered a thousand paratroopers into Little Rock, put ten thousand Arkansas national guardsmen under federal control and used the troops to protect the black students and to maintain order in the school. Bull Conner/George Wallace/Lester Maddox/Orville Faubus All Democrats "George Bush is our Bull Connor." Mr. Rangel's metaphoric linkage of Mr. Bush to the late Theophilus "Bull" Connor - who in 1963 turned fire hoses and attack dogs on blacks, including Martin Luther King Jr., demonstrating in favor of equal rights - met with wild applause and cheering at a Congressional Black Caucus town hall meeting, part of the organization's 35th Annual Legislative Conference. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 07 Aug 06 - 09:07 PM Correction. The purpose of the Republican party was to stop the spread of slavery to new states. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Aug 06 - 01:37 AM Pardon me, Old Guy, I've been too busy elsewhere to give proper time to our ongoing dialogue. I have only time to mention that both the Republicans and the Democrats would happily enslave anyone including their own constituents' mothers if it kept them in power and made them rich. It's all about the $$$money$$$. Be back tomorrow maybe to talk more. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST Date: 08 Aug 06 - 08:45 PM Horeshit and rhetoric are worthless. Would, if, should, goddamit I dont't want a fairytale from an idealist. Cold hard facts work fine unless you are trying to spining a yarn. Get real. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Old Guy Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:50 PM That was me |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: Ebbie Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:53 PM Are you telling us that you are a man without ideals, Old Guy? Kind of like saying you are not an environmentalist - and yet, the environment is where you live. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Era Ends: Castro Steps Down From: GUEST Date: 09 Aug 06 - 03:38 AM What ho chaps, Any thoughts on the fact that there hasn't been major upheaval in Cuba since Castro stepped down - as predicted. It's true that Bush hasn't got his act together and sent the marines in yet - but to be fair - Cuba hasn't got oil, so it's not a priority. Pip - pip Jim Carroll |
