BS: Is the Rapture Underway???

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 11:16 AM

I've been looking thru my collection of quotations.... it often helps me put things into some perspective.


"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way." -Bertrand Russell

A wise man once said "If I could prove there was no God I would keep it a secret, lest the world destroy itself'" -R. A. Underwood

"The most important scientific revolutions all include, as their only common feature, the dethronement of human arrogance from one pedestal after another of previous convictions about our centrality in the cosmos." - Stephen Jay Gould

"The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance... logic can be happily tossed out the window."        Stephen King

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 06:35 PM

BillD - "So, L.H.... how would that be different from simple "thoughts feelings and emotions" that were merely our 'ID' and 'superego' as Freud said?.

My answer to that, Bill, is that each person must decide for himself where the difference lies...and if there is one. I can't decide for you. You can't decide for me.

What I am speaking about is, for me, far more than just poetic words.

pete - you quoted from Paul: "in him we live and move and have our being...for we are also his offspring"

Yes, I quite agree with that, although you could also say "in her we live and move and have our being"...if you wanted to say it that way. I think of God as omnipresent and beyond gender, but manifesting in and through both genders and also through genderless things...as the source of all that is.

pete, point #2 - "we do have record of him commissioning the apostles to bear witness to him"

Of course. All spiritual teachers advise their students to bear witness to the teachings they are given and to the source of the teachings. The question in my mind is, "Did Jesus want people to worship him as God? Or did he want them to learn from him and to follow his example and so become like him, thus bringing to actuality the Kingdom of God as a living experience?" I think it was probably the latter, not the former. I think he was attempting to awaken the Christ Spirit in each person, not get them to worship it solely in the form of his own identity. And, yes, I think it sleeps in a potential form in every human being, waiting to be awakened and brought into full expression.

That is one of the most essential teachings in the great Asian religions, and also in some of the more mystical wings of Christianity. To achieve enlightenment is to awaken the Christ within.

We can talk about it all we want, but the only way to make it real is to actually experience it...and that's something that usually takes either a great deal of hard work...or a great capacity to open the heart and surrender...or both. Both pride and fear stand in the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 05:53 PM

What do you mean by 'repent'?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 05:49 PM

"...such a display by God does not guarantee that it will lead to repentance and faith."

Right... as opposed to not bothering... and letting his 'followers' threaten with hellfire & damnnation if we don't have faith & repent just based on 2000 years of hearsay.

If those are God's rules, I doubt I'd want to spend eternity with him. His logic doesn't follow MY rules. (You should have seen the Jehovah's Witnesses' faces when I told them essentially that a few years ago. They don't come 'round any more. I think I'm on a list.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 04:55 PM

yeh bill,there are times when i wish he would do that as well.Hwill end it all one day but as 2 peter 3 v 9 assures us,he has'nt come back yet because he is giving oppotunity for repentance.
as i said in my previous post ,the bible teaching is that such a display by God does not guarantee that it will lead to repentance and faith.
we can assume what we think God might do but i try to be content that he knows best.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 04:40 PM

LH part 2
it is certainly true that we have no record of Jesus itemizing the unfolding of his mission as far as scripture writing was concerned.
however we do have record of him commissioning the apostles to bear witness to him.matthew 28v19f.acts 1 v 8.
he promised that the Holy Spirit would teach them what they could not handle then john 16 v 12-14,and that the Spirit would bring to their memory what he had been teaching them while present with them .john claimed that what he wrote was their testimony of their time with Jesus.1 john 1 v 1-4.his purpose in writing was to advance belief in Christ.john 20 v 30f.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 03:46 PM

"If it's within us, though, I suspect it would speak to us in a much more subtle way through our thoughts and our feelings and emotions...assuming we were inclined to pay proper attention and listen carefully...."

So, L.H.... how would that be different from simple "thoughts feelings and emotions" that were merely our 'ID' and 'superego' as Freud said?.

Does a mystic (Zen & such) who meditates deeply channel some sort of 'godness' that careless little ME misses by merely acting on my...ummm... superficial thoughts, feeling and emotions?

Your concept is 'prettier' and better poetry, but as usual, it seems to like just semantic decoration. (I have pretty, poetic thoughts also at times, but I am aware of their aim & status.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 02:48 PM

i sort of know what you mean LH ,but as bill observed some posts back,something like your idea of the divine being so vague as to have little meaning,i broadly agree.
in a sense i agree in that we all spring from,and are sustained by him.paul quoted greek philosophers in that respect
   ".....he be not far from everyone of us,for in him we live and move and have our being...for we are also his offspring" acts 17 v 27f.
it is clear though from the conclusion of his address to the athenians that he wanted to move them beyond that.
i certainly think it a good thing to listen and meditate but at the end of the day your opnions of God are subjective,not having an objective point of reference.you may not believe it to be entirely reliable as a reference point but it does provide an objective ref point for its believers.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 02:11 PM

Little Hawk, revisit this:

Ever notice, that in a dream, the person IN the dream goes through whatever 'adventure' the dream is about, but YOU, the observer of the dream, feels every emotion, that the character IN the dream is experiencing????? Does that mean the observer(dreamer) doesn't exist??..or maybe the 'Dreamer' is a Reality too close to be named...but if it walked among us................

Something to think about, huh?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 02:04 PM

Bill, I realize it's pete you're talking to...and his position you're addressing, not mine.

What I keep noticing is that the hypothetical scenarios you suggest all involve God as if God were a big separate being of some kind, rather than something that's already existing inside all of us. If a deity was a separate being, then it could perhaps manifest as a big voice speaking to everyone out of the sky.

If it's within us, though, I suspect it would speak to us in a much more subtle way through our thoughts and our feelings and emotions...assuming we were inclined to pay proper attention and listen carefully. Usually we are not so inclined, because we're busy doing other stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 12:46 PM

3oo, and still not thinking!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 12:45 PM

So, are you admitting that you don't think??..or you just ignore thinking??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 12:24 PM

mentally disturbed people claim this sort of thing ... a 'voice' speaking only to me...sort of inside my head...every day.

Indeed. Mental illness - or at least mental aberration - explains a great deal about fundagelical and rapturist beliefs and behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 11:48 AM

Pete.. you asked: "would you believe,even if he spoke directly to you?"

A number or time here at Mudcat I have described scenarios that would be very convincing. (The clouds parting and a voice from above appearing to all humans simultaneously in their own languages, for example.)

Now... *IF* I heard a 'voice' speaking only to me...sort of inside my head... I would be curious, but not convinced. Why? Because mentally disturbed people claim this sort of thing every day... and some use it as explanation for committing terrible crimes. "God told me to do it!"

I assume that *IF* there were a genuine God who was "all powerful" and who wished to speak directly to me, he could do so... (that is sort of included in the definition of "ALL powerful"). But I am sure that "all powerful" is only a human linguistic concept for what we 'imagine' a god to be like. It is an obvious thing to add to a list of 'godly attributes', but it leads to famous conundrums such as "Could God create a stone so heavy He couldn't lift it?" Then the game becomes 'interpreting' the idea so that it is not a contradiction..... and that, Pete, is the most obvious problem for sceptics like me. We see these 'human' concepts, claims, scriptures, stories and ideas in dozens of cultures & religions... and we see people (priests, theologians, translators) spending their lives trying to reconcile confusions and contradictions and promote ONE version as 'true'.
This leads to the obvious example of 'circular reasoning', where they start with the assumption that "there IS one absolute truth", and then construct arguments trying to defend the version they are most familiar with... usually handed to them as children by family & friends.

I ask again... if a "God" wanted this mess to end (including all the war & death over religion) and all people to see the **TRUTH**, why just tell a few people thousands of years ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 09:31 AM

pete - I don't doubt that there is much spiritual truth in the Bible (as in many other great books of great religions). I just don't think every single word in every single passage in the Bible is necessarily the unadulterated and entire truth straight from God.

Therefore, I read the Bible with an eye to discernment to find what truth is there....not as a perfect instruction manual that will tell me everything I need to know.

And I note that Jesus, during his entire mission, never once said to his followers: "After I'm gone there will be followers of mine, some of yourself included, who will write a number of Gospels and books about me, those books will be combined with the old Hebrew scriptures you already know, they will become a great book called 'the Bible' and in it will be all the truth about me, about God, and about life, and the new church founded in my name will make it the one book you must study to know the truth. Listen and comprehend!"

Nope. He never said anything of the sort. And he would have if it were so, in my opinion. For the truth, I am inclined to go straight to the source itself...not to a collection of books written by a series of different men about the source.

You see what I mean?

And where is the source? The source is within each one of us. You have to become silent...go within...search...and find it. As Jesus advised. And as Buddha and many others have also advised since antiquity.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 09:18 AM

Gods talk to non believers all the time. The medication you can get these days helps them lead a pretty normal if slightly depressed life.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 09:15 AM

Something to think about, huh?

Something to BELIEVE, perhaps, but thinking doesn't come into it. And there's the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 07:57 AM

well bill,the isrealites heard the voice and saw Gods wonders but did not remain faithful for long.the opponents of Jesus witnessed the raising of lazarus and plotted to kill the raised and the raiser.
jesus told a story about a man in hell.he pleaded that the dead begger be sent to his brothers to warn them,,that they not go to that place of torment.he was told that they had moses and the prophets and if they hear not them, neither will they repent if one gos to them from the dead ..
you have the bible.but of course as you dont trust that the biblical answer its explanation is rejected.
would you believe,even if he spoke directly to you?
i am quite certain that most of the atheists would not,with any genuine conviction, judging from the obvious agressive resistance.
i am not comparing you to them.you are always polite and civil.
all i can say is that the bible promises that those who seek will find.but then we are back to not believing what it says!
and the promise that those who " seek me with all of their hearts will be found of me" hardly applies i should think to those whose response is "shrug!",

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 02:02 AM

Greg: "why would not an "all powerful God" give us poor, confused mortals a clear, unmistakable sign
1. He/She has a perverted sense of humor & likes playing with us?
2. That would take all the fun out of it?
3. He/She is awful busy most of the time?
4. He/She really doesn't give a damn?"

Or, maybe 'God' gave us everything we needed, plus 'freewill' to do with it as we choose....so why blame 'God'??..or not believe there is one? Maybe it's sorta like having a dream...Ever notice, that in a dream, the person IN the dream goes through whatever 'adventure' the dream is about, but YOU, the observer of the dream, feels every emotion, that the character IN the dream is experiencing????? Does that mean the observer(dreamer) doesn't exist??

Something to think about, huh?

GfS

'

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 12:33 PM

"The snag is that children and many vulnerable adults are not well suited to making the distinction (between a moral metaphor and a literal account of something) so forgive me for having a wee bit of contempt for the idea of accepting the privilege religions demand from society."

Hmm. Yeah, just like I have a wee bit of contempt for the privilege that politicians, patriotism-pushers who want to start a war, political parties, armies, intelligence agencies, commercial advertisers, lawyers, corporations, and banks demand from society, eh, Ian? ;-)

I see it as the same basic problem humanity has encountered in every major field of concern. You get a privileged elite of some kind who set themselves up in a position of power...and they are tempted to abuse that position...and they are able to because they manage to lead a lot of people astray or overawe a lot of people...or just because they have the money and the authority on their side.

No reason to be surprised that it has happened that way over and over again with religions too.

Anyway, every society has some people in it who take a metaphor literally, thus misunderstanding its real purpose...and other people who get the metaphor and do understand its real purpose. Consider the Native peoples of the Americas. They had all kinds of colourful and dramatic tales about Creation, about the origins of Man and the various plants and animals, about the origins of life itself and of the planet, even about the Cosmos. Some Indians probably took those mythical tales absolutely literally...perhaps the majority of them did. Others no doubt understood that those tales were allegorical in nature, and not to be taken literally, but usually to demonstrate a moral principle of some kind. (In either case, I don't think the Indians' lives were damaged by those tales....they were greatly enriched by them.)

And thus it will always be with human beings...some can't see beyond the surface of a metaphorical statement...while others can. When you can see beyond the surface of a myth and understand what the myth is telling you about your own life, then it can serve a useful purpose in your life.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 12:25 PM

L.H. ... do I have to insert disclaimers & parameters for everything I say?

When I refer to "an all powerful God", I MEAN one whom someone ELSE imagines as an independent Being who 'cares' and monitors our doings. Pete accepts something like this. You are the one who defines God as this amorphous concept..." the entire continuum OF all existence..."the Aplha to the Omega"...infinite and eternal presence...beyond time and space."

I get the general thrust of your idea... which I have noted before as feeling to me as so general & vague as to not even deserve a name. It is the term as referring to a concious, superior Being that Pete & I are occasionally discussing. He is sure there is one.. I don't officially deny that, as I can't prove it one way or another.. I just 'doubt'.

Okay?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 12:03 PM

The evidence seems to suggest we have fairly reliable measures of the laws of physics. Considering Scripture of any type, regardless of origin, had moments of contradicting what we know to be reliable fact, it does drag any and all these threads on religion down to two subjects-those who use the metaphor to give their moral compass and those with whom it is ultimately futile to debate with, as fantasy cannot be contradicted by fact and facts have no need for fantasy.

It comes down to what you believe and what you traditionally believe.   The snag is that children and many vulnerable adults are not well suited to making the distinction so forgive me for having a wee bit of contempt for the idea of accepting the privilege religions demand from society.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 09:36 AM

why would not an "all powerful God" give us poor, confused mortals a clear, unmistakable sign

1. He/She has a perverted sense of humor & likes playing with us?

2. That would take all the fun out of it?

3. He/She is awful busy most of the time?

4. He/She really doesn't give a damn?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 12:54 AM

And I just screwed up the html in that last post. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 12:48 AM

Bill, you said, "why would not an "all powerful God" give us poor, confused mortals a clear, unmistakable sign or some absolute evidence that we could not argue with?"

This question again assumes a separate and human-like being that for some reason needs something from people...which is, I think, a ridiculous way to conceive of God. That which is the source of all existence doesn't need anything from anyone, and doesn't demand anything from anyone, nor pity them either, but simply makes all things possible all the time by empowering living beings with presence, life, and existence. Existence itself needs nothing from us, Bill, but we need it in every moment of our lives.

The point isn't that we are poor or confused. That's a very negative way of looking at this life experience. The point is that we are life itself, experiencing life itself, and that's a magnificent and endlessly creative situation to be in...so we should celebrate it! And that's exactly what very wise people do. They celebrate the wonder of life and are very creative in whatever way suits them best.

I don't believe that most people mock to convince. I think they mock primarily in order to feel good about themselves by diminishing someone else. They look around hopefully all the time for someone they think is probably stupider or more vulnerable than they are, and when they find what they think is a good target, they have great fun mocking that person just like bullies in a schoolyard have fun bullying "nerds", smaller kids or anyone they think is vulnerable.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 12:38 AM

Jack Sprocket, no one can either prove OR disprove the existence of God, because God is not defined as an isolated phenomenon that can BE observed, quantified, proven or disproven through any empirical means. God is not defined as a physically existing thing...nor as a thing made up of atoms, moleculs, waveforms or other such observable phenomena.

God is either inclusive of ALL phenomena...therefore unobservable in any discrete through our senses...or is beyond phenomena altogether.

God may be consciousness itself...or the source OF consciousness. How do you go about observing that? You can't. But you can experience it.

If God is ALL being, then we are constantly experiencing God...whether we know it or not...but we can't observe God, because we would then be included within the totality that is God. If God is the unobservable source of all being (as is asserted at the higher esoteric levels of most great religious traditions, then again, God can certainly be experienced...and is experienced all the time...but cannot be observed, because we can't observe something that is not separate from us in the first place. We can know it...or not know it...but we cannot observe it, because it isn't outside of us to BE observed. We are within it, and so is everything else.

I think when you hear the world "God" you picture the idea of a separate being. That isn't the nature of God, in my opinion. God is the entire continuum OF all existence..."the Aplha to the Omega"...infinite and eternal presence...beyond time and space. All the various things we can observe are separate parts and pieces of that infinite space-time continuum. It is the fact that they ARE finite which makes them observable. God isn't finite. (though some religious people imagine a rather finite God...specially if they are literal thinkers who want a "Daddy" figure they can relate to as if to a very big and powerful human being).

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 07:12 PM

Pete... why would not an "all powerful God" give us poor, confused mortals a clear, unmistakable sign or some absolute evidence that we could not argue with? (If the clouds parted and a voice said "Pay Attention!". I would.) I don't know that he is reported to have spoken directly to anyone since Moses... and Moses was alone on that mountain. 2000 years is pretty long to go without direct clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 06:52 PM

"They have every right to mock those ..."...etc.

What an interesting formulation. I suppose anyone has a 'right' to mock anyone else whom they believe to be careless or ignorant about a subject and who still "assume a position of authority" on it.
The question is: who are they hoping to convince with their mockery? Or failing that, who are they hoping to impress with their erudite superiority, couched in clever mockery?
I am all in favor of clearly and carefully arguing one's position... point by tedious point. I do think however, that if your opinion of a person and their opinion is so low that you have no respect for them... why bother? (Yes...I have met such people. I used to be active in the USA Civil Rights movement in the 60s & 70s. There were people I just didn't bother with due to a stubbornness based on hate and ignorance... I have also met people whose religious bent was to **inform** me that I was a sinner and was 'going to Hell'. I couldn't be bothered to 'mock' them.)

Religion is a special topic among the many that humans confront each other about. It DOES involve out entire recorded history and has affected almost every aspect of our struggles to come to terms with our very existence. It is extremely complicated, both sociologically and emotionally, and as such deserves more than just posturing.. from either side.

I will debate, discuss, argue, explain,..etc..when I am free & able .... but I will not 'mock' as long as the discussion remains basically cordial. Others who choose to exercise their "right" to ridicule and mock may as well do it in front a mirror, for all the good it does.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 06:28 PM

i could go through all the instances of dating that dont add up but it would be time consuming,and unlike you,s apparently are,am not qualified in geology and dating methods, and would be at a disadvatage.and any evidence of way out dating would either be dismissed as lies or misunderstanding.
it is obviously impossible to prove the historical accuracy of the gospels but it is worth considering that luke claimed to have done a thorough investigation.luke 1 v1-4.i suppose it could be claimed that he lied,was hoodwinked,or that was a later addition.
gainsayers will always find something to avoid the face value account.
believers like myself that believe in an all powerful God,say why on earth should it not be true?.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 06:00 PM

"concepts he cannot disprove (such as the existance of God) "

Sorry, it's not up to him to disprove it. It's up to you to prove it. And spell it right.

" I am conscience of the limits of their expertise"

You show no indication of any understanding of what they are talking about. They have every right to mock those who assume a position of authority on subjects which are "logically unknowable"- because they are just as unknowable from any other perspective. Or if you claim they aren't, come up with some evidence why it's so.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 05:51 PM

"Pushing against an open door."

The only issue I have with the religious discussions on this site are the name calling and pushiness of certain unbelievers who will complain about religion vehemently.

It is not credible to contend that vehement behavior comes from a lack of belief.

I pointed this out to a couple of people more than a year ago and they stopped attacking religious posts. There are a couple of stragglers who have not.

There is a misperception about Steve Shaw. Apparently DonT and others believe that he always argues the same thing and that he always argues from a scientific perspective. This could not be further from the truth. He seems to have fallen into the same psychological trap that engulfed Mr. Dawkins.


Mr. Dawkins gained a lot of respect in the scientific community by explaining evolution in layman's terms and counterin creationism with logic.

But as he explains in his Ted Talk, that was not enough. His Scientist colleagues were not convinced by his logic. The God Delusion was the start of his crusade against the wishy washy and less "fundamental." Now he calls believers "delusional" and mocks concepts he cannot disprove (such as the existance of God) by quoting the good-natured comedian Douglas Adams in equating the belief to fairies at the end of the garden. In other words, what he cannot disprove, he mocks.

I think the defense of science against anti-science is a very good thing. If it is done scientifically and logically. But when it is combined with bullying and name calling and dubious appeals to authority. When the goal is pursued in illogical ways that only bring question to the credibility of the "defender" so when Dawkins claims to speak as a scientist and calls people names or when Shaw claims to speak as a science teacher who calls people names. I feel obliged to point out that when they step outside their fields they lose the right to speak for their fields.

I know a lot of you like Dawkins and Mr. Shaw. I like them too. I am conscience of the limits of their expertise and I am not inclined to give them credit for knowing the scientifically and logically unknowable. They have every right to assert that they do not believe. But they have no right to mock those who don't agree with them.

And this assertion by some that those who do not have a religion don't have a stance. Do even you believe that Ian? It is my belief that you were taking the piss when you said that.




vehemently

ve·he·ment
[vee-uh-muhnt]
adjective
1.
zealous; ardent; impassioned: a vehement defense; vehement enthusiasm.
2.
characterized by rancor or anger; violent: vehement hostility.
3.
strongly emotional; intense or passionate: vehement desire.
4.
marked by great energy or exertion; strenuous: vehement clapping.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 03:16 PM

"The question I ask is what can I learn about the miracles to apply to my own life?"

Exactly! What is important is not whether the reported "miracles" (unusual and striking events) were literally just as described...or whether the stories are allegorical ones in various ways...but what you can learn from those stories to apply to your own life.

That is the crux of the matter.

The writers of the Gospels certainly were authors, each with his own version of the story to tell...and you can see that they bring different viewpoints forward in how they tell the story. The mood in John's gospel is quite different from in Matthew's, Mark's, or Luke's gospels. Then there's Paul, who again has a different slant on things. I look upon them as normal, fallible men who were probably all speaking what to them was perceived as the truth, but from different personal perspectives and with different concerns. So those gospels do serve as a general sort of guide to what happened, but not as the final or perfect authority on what happened. The only way you could have that was to have been there yourself and seen it with your own eyes.

The real question is, as Jack said, "what can I learn about...(the teachings and example given by Jesus)...to apply to my own life?"

Therein lies the challenge, and the possibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sans credibility
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 03:15 PM

Well stop pushing against an open door then. Nobody to my knowledge has ever dismissed the comfort blanket aspect of having faith, nor indeed dismissed the metaphor as a moral compass.

The issue as ever has been trying to convince the rest of the population religion has something to offer the rest of the population. Whilstever people associate their religion with fantasy as reality, such as the rapture, virgins giving birth after a dude with wings visited her, resurrection, intelligent design of a type that is described, flying carpets, revelations etc, it is not enough to ignore the gullible ones, , the more rational members need to not be associated with fantasy as a lever for social design if they are ever going to retain credibility in the 21st century.

At this time, the church of England, possibly the least radical Christian cult and historically acceptable, is debating in their synod whether women can get top jobs and whether gay people should have the same rights as the rest of society. If I heard a reasonable argument it would stop me in my tracks, but with UK equality legislation, why should they have privilege above the law?

Despite Dumbfuckistan, at least your side of the pond, government is officially secular.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 02:49 PM

"Is it apocryphal or did a Tea Party Republican politician say, when lamenting the rise of Spanish as language, that if English was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for Americans. "

It was a politician in Texas more than 50 years ago (46 years before the tea party) as per a story I heard on a PBS panel discussion last night. Knowing a little of the history of Texas at that time, she may well have a Democrat speaking tongue in cheek.

Aside from the childish name calling Ian has made a good point. On the scale of Ian to Pete in belief in Biblical miracles, I think, I am somewhat more a believer than Little Hawk's friend. But I am not qualified to analyze the events of 2013 years ago. I can't question the veracity of events I didn't witness. Yes the Romans as a society were experienced and presumably competent executioners. But there were a hundred possible ways that particular one could have been botched or faked. But clever Ian, that would preclude a miracle having happened, wouldn't it? But we don't know what the nature and technology of Jesus' miracles. We do know that people who talked to the disciples who witnesses the miracles seemed to believe in them.

Do I believe in the miracles of Jesus? Of course I do. I am a great fan of Lord Raglan and Joe Campbell and their discussions of the powerful myths and a social consciousness that bind nearly all societies together. Jesus is a part of that. To some, to me the very apex of that.

Do I believe that any or all of the miracles actually happened as described? I wasn't there as Ian and LH have pointed out there is the possibility of observer bias and second hand information degradation.

But for me, pete, that misses the point. The question I as is what can I learned about the miracles to apply to my own life?

He turned the water into wine? Drinking alcohol is not inherently wrong?

He healed the lame and cured the blind? Charity is rewarding?

He rose from the dead after humiliation and torture? Persevere. There is hope for us all?

I don't recall his name but there is a theologian up I40 in Chapel Hill who writes about the authors of the Gospels. I don't remember his name. If he is right the recent discussions here has been vindicated but has also sold them short. According to a talk I heard by him the basic points of the Gospel were well known in Christan circles of the time, both in word of mouth and probably in writings and letters that did not survive. But he also describes different theological beliefs influencing the style of writing and the details included.

His controversial assertion is that they were authors with their own version of the story to tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 12:44 PM

Is it apocryphal or did a Tea Party Republican politician say, when lamenting the rise of Spanish as language, that if English was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for Americans.

I heard it via a mate, but Chinese whispers and all that.

If newspapers can get it wrong after 10 mins, story tellers a couple of hundred years after the event stand no chance. Hence my questioning moral compass versus an actual bloke who was born of a virgin who performed acts that cannot be done and rose from the dead.   What we do know is that the Romans weren't sloppy when it came to crucifixion.

Oh, false alarm. The relative rang yesterday so pete hasn't missed it after all.

Anyone got the latest date? I need to build a few kennels and make a mint.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 12:44 PM

That is for sure, Don.

Like you say, the Gospel writers cherry-picked (and edited) what information they were able to acquire in order to serve their own purposes. I think some of them were alive in Jesus' own time, though, and personally witnessed some of the events they report on...still that doesn't mean that what they wrote about it isn't without prejudice or various political agendas.

There were also a number of apocryphal writings from people in the early church which many at the time considered equally valid, but which were edited out of the officially sanctioned documents which became the Christian Bible. And there were power struggles within the Church throughout its history over all kinds of doctrinal issues. What we mostly hear now is the viewpoints of those who won those power struggles.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 12:20 PM

""This didn't prevent her from being a very capable Christian minister or from finding powerful meaning in what Jesus taught and demonstrated about conduct and morality.""

Even those, like myself, who do not subscribe to any religious grouping, can find a model for life and behaviour in the teachings attributed to Jesus.

There is little doubt that he was a real person and that he was a Rabbi (in the truest sense of the word).

However, these events weren't recorded until over a hundred years after his death, by men who had never known him and relied upon anecdotal information to produce the New Testament.

Even then, the accounts recorded by those gospel makers were heavily cherry picked to serve the agenda of those compiling the record.

It's a chastening thought that if Jesus did come back today, the people most likely to kill him are the Chritian Fundamentalists of the US bible belt.

They forgot the most important of his teachings a long time ago.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 10:03 AM

Yes, indeed. Well said, sir.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sans Bach
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 09:56 AM

You describe many of my friends and family, and I have friends who are of the cloth as well as many friends and colleagues who take their faith very seriously, especially someof our Muslim friends and colleagues


In an earlier thread, the metaphor versus the literal was debated, and I am sure always will. This thread is about a literal interpretation of ancient documents. It must be frustrating for people to be lumped with the petes of this world by ignoramus types such as me.   Yet rather than challenge their destructive effect on faith, people try to engage with them which may be laudable but increases the risk of being dismissed as delusion. My question above was based on two interpretations of the word "truth"

Nobody gives a shit whether I or anybody else who isn't a member thinks them deluded and neither should they. But when religions try to exert influence on communities, they are subject to scrutiny.

And found lacking. Chiefly through relevance.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 09:27 AM

The entire field of all existence and of all further potential possibilities can put up with anything, Don T, because it's not bothered by anything....including you! ;-) Or me either, for that matter...not to mention Greg F.

As for Jesus, I think people lay too much of a burden on him. They should have followed his example instead of turning him into an idol to worship.

Ian - I had an interesting discussion last week with a very bright woman who is a retired Anglican minister. She's a Christian, but she doesn't believe in the Resurrection in a physical sense. She thinks of it in a spiritual sense, that the soul probably survives bodily death...but she's not absolutely certain about that either. What do I think about the Resurrection? I don't know. There may have been a physical Resurrection of Jesus or there may have been a spiritual Resurrection of him or it may all be legendary...I can't say. I'm willing to consider the various possibilities rather than just issuing pat denials of them as many people would, but I wasn't there, so I simply can't say for sure, and I don't intend to believe things other people tell me just because they happen to believe those things for some reason that they can't really explain.

When I say that the above lady is a Christian, you may ask "What does she believe, then?" Briefly: she believes in the validity, great value, and general good sense of what Jesus taught and demonstrated about forgiveness, non-violence, not judging others, treating others as you would wish to be treated yourself, bravely confronting unjust forces in society, speaking the truth, being responsible, helping people in need, etc...and she has tried to follow his example and pattern her own life on his teachings. As I said, she's a very bright woman and a very independent thinker.

She does not believe a lot of the standard traditional Christian doctrine that's in the Bible such as the physical Resurrection, the "virgin" birth, the idea of Jesus being a "sacrifice" for humanity's sins, the idea that God is a male super-being, the idea that Adam and Eve were 2 people who started the whole human race, the idea that Noah took 2 of every kind of animal in the world into a giant boat and saved them...etc...and so on, and so on. She regards most of that stuff as either legends (many of which came from previous religions anyway)....or symbolic parables...or both.

This didn't prevent her from being a very capable Christian minister or from finding powerful meaning in what Jesus taught and demonstrated about conduct and morality.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 08:16 AM

Jesus can take 'um where ever he wants... Just take 'um...

Bobert, what the heck makes you think Jesus WANTS 'em? He's not crazy, ya know.

Now, if he would just DISAPPEAR 'em, that's a whole other story....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 07:28 AM

I reckon the real RAPTURE will be that which the rest enjoy, when all the fundies have been removed.

The world will be a better place, but I pity the God who has to put up with them.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Ian Mather not Musket so shut up Jerk
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 07:24 AM

Does anyone here distinguish between believing in the resurrection and believing the resurrection physically happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 08:24 PM

Well, pete...if you 'suppose' you could be missing something, why not examine the entire argument...all sides of it?

The point about rock dating is that SOME rocks and/or minerals are clearly many millions of years old. This is proven beyond any reasonable doubt. The age of proven materials, combined with other scientific data shows us that 'life' is pretty old, and that we humans are a fairly recent developement....not thousands of years old, but several million. In terms of proven ages of other stuff, that IS recent.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 07:42 PM

bill-i must admit that i did wonder if elements from vast ages ago [for sake of argument] could be retained in a recent lava flow.
but then i thought- how could you be sure when any rock formed,after all the dating could be miscalculated by former elements.
the recent rock formed from lava and was misdated.
so if we cant trust the dating of rock of known age of forming,why should we trust the dating of unknown age. sigh.
i suppose i could be missing something in the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 07:29 PM

""how much carbon to begin with or if the rate of decay has always been constant.""

Genuine science has examined every isotope in the periodic table stable enough to examine, plus several that only exist for milliseconds in earth conditions, and it has yet to find any single isotope that DOESN'T have a constant rate of decay and a fixed half life.

And once again, there are NO Creation Scientists, only people with degrees in unrelated subjects and a religious fundamentalist mindset.

The REAL scientists are archaeologists, paleontologists, geologists and biologists, none of whom would give your concept Young Earth Creationism a second's thought, or the slightest credence.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 07:13 PM

""Well with Shaw, it s more like

"Change your mind you !! It is true because I have thought about it and MY belief in my own opinion is not faith or belief it is science."""

Nothing could be further from a true representation of what Steve said.

In fact, it is much more redolent of the religious fundamentalist stance.

I don't know whether that asinine misrepresentation indicates a genuine misunderstanding on your part, or a deliberate choice of wilful ignorance.

His stance is based upon drawing conclusions from the results of overwhelming scientific evidence, evidence accepted by the vast majority of Christians insofar as it relates to evolution and the age of this planet.

Your stance is based upon your inability to stop picking at a sore that plagues you, over which you have no control, that there exist some people who simply don't believe as you do. So you, to justify your beliefs, find it necessary that they accept your categorisation of their position as an opposing faith.

Pete has a good brain, which he refuses to exercise, as doing so would destroy the fixed determination to believe that a book of fables, anecdotes and control mechanisms, laced with a very flimsy framework of historical events, is in every respect inerrant truth. Pete's brain has been thoroughly washed by some very clever evangelists, and no logical thought whatever is permitted therein.

Hence, he cannot ever approach any scientific treatise which does not come from his (non existent) ""Creation Scientists"", for fear of being contaminated by logic and reason.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 06:51 PM

bill- i was quite aware that you would not believe in the ressurection.i was wondering if jack did.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 06:23 PM

"...dating methods can be wildly wrong."


No... if you understand the physics behind radioactive decay, it cannot be "wildly" wrong. It is not accurate to days or weeks, but in thousands of years it is pretty clear. It is not about "how much carbon", but rather the amount of radioactive decay in any amount of C14.

" rock formed from volcanic action this century have been "dated"as millenia old.

*sigh* volcanic deposits are FROM material that was melted or disturbed from MANY ages. It is perfectly possible for magma from last week to have components dating much longer ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 06:11 PM

Pete... *I* have no doubt that there is much historical data in the bible. Many of the locations and a number of the characters are known from other sources. I will even concede that the story of Jesus may have historical referents.... there may indeed have been a preacher who inspired stories to be told about him.
   However... the best analysis of various texts and comparisons of known events suggests that the 4 gospels were set down between 70 & 200 years AFTER the death of Jesus.

(see long discussion here)

ALL stories were cobbled together by various scribes from sparse documents... and in such interesting stories, it is more than possible that stories were enlarged and embroidered by story tellers...a perfectly natural thing to do. The problem is with things like 'resurrection' that it is very hard to put it in perspective since we have NO clear proof as to where a tomb was and not even a story about witnesses as to its opening or any large stones..etc. Those details are ONLY stories... the kind that WOULD be written if one wanted to inspire awe & belief. So...no, resurrection is not scientifically respectable. It remains a matter of 'belief'.... as do many of the details of Jesus' life.
There are very good reasons why people say they **believe** in various things..if we had strong evidence from many sources, other words would be used.

There is an important principle about the process of reasoning and logic... it says: " From false premises, ANYTHING follows!" This means that if someone has even SOME facts incorrect, they can derive many conclusions from them. This happens in religious areas, as not *all* the different opinions can be factually true.
It does not prove any one false... it merely reminds us that IF we see contradictory conclusions, we should suspect some incorrect premises somewhere. If it is not possible to test all the premises, the best course is to refrain from committing to a judgment. That is what a good skeptic does.... and why it IS possible to 'believe' the bible as a good and inspiring guide and to 'believe' in a creator without committing to a literal view of its contents.