How to learn to pronounce Gaelic

Subject: BS: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: GUEST,Keith Lucas
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:05 AM

Have been listing to a lot of a Scottish Band named Runrig and working out a lot of their songs, fantastic band, trying to learn how to pronounce Gaelic the way it sounds compared to the way it's written, for example in the song The Stamping Ground in each verse after the main verse is sung in English there's a Gaelic line added that means (theres a new grass growing on top of the soil), this is how it is spelled in Gaelic (Tha feur ur air bar an tallamh, bar an tallamh horribh o)
   I have found some web sites which teach Gaelic but being honest I'm not as good at book learning as I am hands on learning, any help with this would be greatly appreciated as Runrig also have some songs sung entirely in Gaelic which I would love to learn.

Subject: RE: BS: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: vindelis
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 03:45 PM

It is my understanding that, For Scots Gaelic you pronounce the word GALic ( to rhymn with PAL - Friend).

The Irish Gaelic is pronounced Gale-ic (wind force 8).

Hope this helps

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 04:05 PM

I was going to cross-link some related Gaelic threads, but there are far too many.

Search for other Gaelic threads

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Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: Effsee
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 04:13 PM

Maybe this site would be a useful resource:
www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/alba/foghlam/beag_air_bheag/index.shtml   
Good luck, you'll probably need it!!

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 04:25 PM

I would say to you that if your goal is too sing in the language, there are tutorial and CD's out there that will let you "ape" the language to a fair degree. But this language is very nuanced, and if you want to deliver the song with its full effect, then you must study it and speak it. The speaking will be critical. I am very envious of my friend, Philippa. She lives and works in the North of Ireland and has studied and immersed herself in both Irish and Scots Gaelic. Where I grew up, I had a lot of exposure to Irish, but not the ability to speak on a regular basis. Hence I have to really work at it. I can sing in the language, but I have to really take the time to learn a song, as opposed to getting lyrics and just singing it.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From:
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 04:38 PM

Keith,
I hate to tell you, but Gaelic IS pronounced exactly as it is written.

Only problem for English Monoglots is that they are conditioned to the Roman alphabet holding a very limited amount of sounds. English is THE HARDEST language to learn.

However with Gaelic, it is simple, the consonants basically hold only ONE sound, but those are modifed by other letters. Also, it is like in English, where vowels sound different depending on the letters surrounding them. With Gaelic, vowels which sound different, LOOK different with accents, acute and grave modifying the length and sound of the vowel.

With consonants there are a number of very simple rules, but there are quite a lot of them. One of the simplest is that there is NO letter H in the language. Whenever you see an H in Irish or Scottish Gaelic, it means that the letters before or after is likely to sound different that that word would be sounded if it didn't have the H. It's there as an indicator of the change. In Gaelic there are NO DOUBLE VOWELS to show lengthening of the vowel sound. It's shown with the accent, usually a GRAVE ie à. For instance, the word bata is a different kettle of fish from bàta. One is a stick and the other a boat. HOWEVER there are tons of double consonants, which change the length of the consonant sound. ie an and ann being totally differnt sounds. An sounds like the English word an, but the word ann sounds like awhn. One means the and the other word is in.

Anyway, if you want to sing Gaelic, I DO recommend taking some courses where you can learn the basics of how Gaelic is sounded at least. That way you can have a start at making the right sounds.

Where are you located? In the UK?, North America? or NZ/Au?

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 04:42 PM

Thanks, George. You managed to explain much better than my "nuanced" comment. English speakers want it to fit their pronounciations. How many times have I given lessons to someone on how to strike a bodhran, gave them the appropriate pronounciations of the name, and listened to them later still pronounce the dh as in English. It's like they just can't get outside of their pronounciations.

Thanks for your clear description.

Mick

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From:
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 04:51 PM

You're quite welcome, Mick. Here're a couple of links to help with the start of the learning process.

Wikipedia on Scottish Gaelic

It's not perfect, but it is a nice place to start. They cover a lot of the basics..

Radio Nan Gaidheal

An excellent resource for learners, and includes listening segments. Check it out, Keith

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: Declan
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:17 PM

Difficult to answer this on a text forum without sound. Best one can do is to try to spell words phoneticaly as thwey might sound in English.

There are no grave accents in Irish (Gaeilge) but these appear to be used in Scots(Gailg). As pointed out above vowel sounds are consistent in Irish roughly as follows:

a without accent is pronounced quite like an English O. (e.g the word gan meaning without is pronounced gon as in gondola. With an accent (síne fada, literally translated as long sign) sounds like 'aw' in béarla (the gaelic name for the English language. Thus Bán which means white is pronounced Bawn (rhymes with lawn rather than Swan).

e without an accent souds like 'eh' as in 'the' (but not as in Thee as somw people pronounce the definite article. é (called e fada when spelling it sounds like "ay" as in "hay". Mé which means me is pronounced like May.

o with no fada is an uh sound as in utmost. O fada (ó) is pronounce oh as in "Oh Dear". The Irish word for a kiss for example Póg is pronounced pogue (rhymes with vogue) thus the name of the band derives from an abreviation of the phrase Póg mo Thóin (Pogue muh thohin) which means kiss my behind.

i with no fada sounds like ih (as in the knights who say Nih) sin which means that sounds like the English word Shin. i fada (í) sounds like a double e. So the word Sín which means to stretch is pronounced like Sheen. As you'll gather from these examples an S before an I is pronouced like 'SH', in most other circumstances S is pronounced as in English.

u without a fada rarely occurs (at least I can't think of an example off the top of my head) except when it is followed by an i. The ui sound is a bit like wi in english. The word cuid which means a part is pronouced cwid or in this case more like quid. Ú is pronounced oo as in moo. Condae Lú (County Louth) is pronounced coon-day loo.

H after a consonant is called a séimhú (litterally softener). Sounds vary depending on the letter. Some examples are
Bh = V. Bhí mé (I was) is pronounced Vee May
Ch = is a gutteral sound like Gh in Van Gough. Chaith Mé (I spent) is Chah may (roughly)
Dh is like a g sort of, or can sometimes be more like a Y (hard to explain this. But Dhein Mé (I did) wsounds like Yen May.
Fh souds like a h.
Gh is is a gutteral one again hard to describe phonetically.
Mh is like a w mostly. Mo Mháithir (My mother) is pronouced Muh Waw
hir
Ph rarely occurs nor does sh
TH is pronounced like a h

Hope this helps and is not too confusing. It is a longer post than I intended.

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From:
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:20 PM

Note that Declan is specifically talking Irish and not Scottish Gaelic. Runrig is Scottish Gaelic.

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: Declan
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:20 PM

All of this gets even more complicated when different dialects and accents are taken into account. But try learning English as a foreign language and you'll discover Gaelic is actually less complicated.

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: Fiolar
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 09:43 AM

Just in passing, the Irish Gaelic alphabet consists of the following:
A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, L, M, N, O, P, R, S, T, U.
Also I would reccomend Father Dineen's Irish-English Dictionary. ISBN is 1-870-16600-0

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:50 AM

I expect "bar" should be "barr" (top) and after "air" (on) it should be "bharr" . The line means "fresh grass is growing on (top of)the ground". "Bh" has a v sound in Scottish Gaelic regardless of what vowels follow. "0 huiribh o" is a typical vocative,no more translatable than "fal da dol" or "tra la la". The accent marks in Gàidhlig usually mean the vowel sound is elongated, the sound held onto longer.

Having learned Irish first, I find Scottish Gàidhlig pronounciation difficult, even though it does have a quite consistent spelling system (better than modern Irish orthography). Ideally you would find a teacher (someone who is a good speaker of Gaelic or even a lapsed native speaker who can help you with sounds if not with language learning) and also a book with tapes and diagrammes of tongue and lip positions. There are some teachers who will coach long-distance by telephone, though I would like to be able to watch speakers' lips. I'm reasonably fluent in Irish. Although I don't practice my Scottish Gaelic much I can engage in basic conversations in that language. But I would love to find someone to coach me specifically in pronounciation for singing in Gaelic ... and I wouldn't even mind getting some individual tutoring for Irish songs. Sometimes I ask others for critique after I've sung a song, but I think they are just too nice when they say I was fine!

If you say where you are located, someone may be able to advise you better about finding someone to teach you a little big of Gàidhlig including pronounciation.

some more websites to look at:
www.beathag.com (she teaches)
www.smo.uhi.ac.uk (a Gaelic-medium college, has a page of Gaelic on the web with links to many other sites)

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From:
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 01:41 PM

Philippa, check for a fellow named Alistair Codona. Last I heard, about 3 years ago, we was living in Ireland, and studying the wire-strung harp. He's a Scottish speaker, and singer. He used to spend a fair amount of time a few years earlier teaching Gaelic singing in the Feisean environment. Don't know where in Ireland, but you might ask around. For that matter, I'm not sure where you are in Ireland.

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: Dave Swan
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 02:59 PM

Have a look at this course offered as distance learning through Sabhal Mor Ostaig , the Gaelic College of Skye.

It's worth wandering around their website.

Christine Primrose, the astounding Scots Gaelic singer and native speaker is on the faculty there.

D

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 09:08 AM

if you are offering me the Sabhal Mór intensive correspondence course, my learning is too advanced for that, but for others who don't mind the time and expense, I hear it is good. I don't think Keith presently has ambitions to really learn the language so in this instance both of us are specifically speaking of coaching in pronounciation.

I'm amazed to hear Alisdair Codona is in Ireland. He lived in S Uist for some years and I thought he was still there, teaching music. I know good friends of his in Skye (long-term residents there, not SMO students)so I'll ask them what the news is about Alisdair. He learned Gaelic very well.

I'm living in the Northwest of Ireland. I do get around to various music festivals from time to time (mostly in the north, including Donegal), and make a special effort to attend if I hear of visits from Scottish Gaels ... I haven't come across Alisdair in the past couple of years.

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From:
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 04:57 PM

Well, as I said, it's been about 3 years since he was last at Celtic Colours and at that time he was somewhere in Ireland learning the wire-strung harp. If you get hold of him, say hello!

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 12:37 AM

As stated above the letter "H" is only used in Gaelic to change the sound of the letter before it (lenition). This concept should be easily understood by English speakers as the language is full of the same stuff, and only the phonics are different. CH in English as in church and in Gaelic as in loch. Other English words like enough the gh becomes an "F" . In telephone ph becomes an "F". In Gaelic words mhor the mh becomes a "V" and in bheag the bh becomes a "V" as well etc.
Nach eil e doribh? :-}
          Slainte,
                Sandy

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: DoctorJug
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:08 AM

Just one note of caution. It's too easy to get into arguments about Gaelic pronunciation. There is no one "right" way in many cases. The same even goes for spelling.
My home is Taigh a' Bata. That's a modern way to spell it. We say it "Toy a Bata", with an umlaut over the "o". You may see Tigh na Bhata, or say "Tie na Vata". The trick is not to be precious about it.
Hope you enjoy the learning!

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: DoctorJug
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:11 AM

Odd how the accent didn't come out over the "a" in Bata! We don't live in "The Stick House"!

Subject: RE: Accents in HTML
From:
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 01:30 PM

Scarecrow, to put accents in, you have to use HTML tricks.
ie
à = à
é = é
ó = ó
ì = ì
ù = ù

That sort of thing.

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: Artful Codger
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 07:47 AM

To simplify the process of generating HTML escapes like these, I wrote a custom map for use with the groaty Microsoft Transliteration Utility. So now, I can paste my Unicode (or Latin-1) text into the transliterator's input window, then copy the output to a web page or browser message area. My map works for most Latin, Norse, Celtic and Slavic languages, plus Esperanto. I could make it available to Mudcat or someone else with a reputable public download area, but folks would still have to find, download, install and learn how to use the Microsoft utility as well, on their own. If you need characters in the map which aren't there, you could easily edit the map to add them, as long as you know the corresponding Unicode hex values. Please do not PM me for a copy of this map, unless you're offering to make it available publicly.

NOTE: Most Unicode key names are NOT recognized by most browsers and web authoring utilities, despite what names may be listed in HTML standards. You're safest using hex escapes like "—", particularly if the character is outside the Latin-1 range. This is what I do for all values in my map.

In a sane world, it would be possible to define a simple keymap to generate HTML escapes directly from deadkey sequences, but Microsoft's keymapper is too limited for this. Have I mentioned yet today how much I hate Microsoft?

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: Artful Codger
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 08:47 AM

Correction to my above post: In my example HTML hex escape I forgot the x after the pound sign: "ő". Without it the value is interpreted in decimal.

As for generating the original Unicode characters in the first place, I use custom keyboard maps. If you want to do this without having to learn a native keyboard layout for each language, you can install Microsoft's "United States-International" keymap. You'll have to experiment to find the deadkeys and their associated mappings, or I might be prevailed upon to provide a crib sheet.

Even better for Celtic is the keymap "US Ireland Extended" - search the Net for it, as it's not a Microsoft-supplied map. It also supports French, German, Esperanto and a few other languages (as long as you don't require things like «-type quotes.) It even comes with complete and useful documentation!

Thread creep: I've written custom keyboard maps for Spanish, Cyrillic Slavic (Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Bulgarian, Makedonian and Serbian) and Romanized Slavic (Czech, Slovak, Polish, Slovenian and Croatian). These are based on the standard US-Qwerty layout. I'm willing to make them available in the same way as my transliteration map.

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From:
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 07:09 PM

Artful, the reason we don't recommend the Hex codes is because Mac and Windows/MS-DOS are likely to be different. They were in the past, and maybe that might change, but it's safest to use the HTML coding to be the same on both types of computer's browsers.

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: Artful Codger
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 05:32 AM

Named literals do not work here for Unicode characters beyond U00FF (i.e. not in the old ISO Latin-1 mapping). You have to use hex or decimal escapes for them. Or use an obsolete character mapping and make other users hunt for the right one (yikes!).

Within the ISO Latin-1 set (which includes the Celtic accented vowels, but not dotted consonants), named literals might be safer, as they may be translated properly if the selected viewing translation includes those characters, only in different positions. But not all Unicode-savvy software yet recognizes all the Latin-1 named literals. As the translation problem exists only on obsolete systems which aren't Unicode-savvy (i.e. a rapidly diminishing proportion of the Net community), my choice is to stick with hex escapes, as the lesser of the two compatibility evils. This accords with the advice given in most books I've read on good web design.

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: RB3
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 10:27 AM

The only problem you might run into is that, at least with Irish Gaelic, like any other language, people from different parts of the country sound different when they say the same things. Watch out for that. Learning the language would make learning the songs easier, but not necessarily make it possible to decipher what someone is singing on a recording without having the words in front of you, depending on where they're from.
I don't speak it (yet), but having "learned" songs from several different albums/artists and attempted to learn how to pronounce things based on that, it doesn't work very well unless you always listen to the same person.
-RB3

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From: DoctorJug
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 10:48 AM

Thanks George.
I'd thank you too, Artful Codger, if I understood what I was thanking you for.
My grasp of technology fades away badly after the development of the modern banjo, but I'll save your advice for future reference.

Subject: RE: How to learn to pronounce Gaelic
From:
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 08:43 AM

You're welcome, Scarecrow.

Takes me a bit of time to work out the stuff in the Artful Codger's posts too! I know the HTML stuff works for the browsers and are supposed to.

RB3,
Yes, differing dialects is also a problem with Scottish Gaelic too. As a new learner, I have always felt more comfortable with the words in front of me. The main part of learning the language has been in learning the meanings of the words to allow ME to say something about the meaning of the song rather than using whatever "translation" is given.