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What no Limbo?
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Subject: What no Limbo? From: The Shambles Date: 06 Oct 06 - 09:59 AM THE Pope is set to abolish the concept of Limbo, overturning a belief held by Roman Catholics since the Middle Ages. The above from the following http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1897480,00.html No more Limbo dancing with the Pope then? |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 06 Oct 06 - 10:00 AM Oh dear.... For those who still wish to understand the concept of Limbo, I have a phone number for a certain Inland Revenue inspector, a conversation with whom will make you wish for purgatory and hell. LTS |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: The Shambles Date: 06 Oct 06 - 10:06 AM If it's good enough for boy scouts................. This dance came originally from West Africa and was first popular in Trinidad. It is a test of skill and strength. If you have a good strong back and a good sense of balance you will enjoy it. Two people, four or five feet apart, hold a long stick horizontally at chest height. A third faces them, places his feet apart and bends backwards from the waist. Then with little hops and shuffling steps he takes himself under the bar. If others join in, it can become a competition to see who can keep travelling under the bar as it gets lowered. Of course it gets more and more difficult as it gets lower. Bending your knees and arching your back helps. Reggae music, drums or clapping make a good accompaniment to this feat. Taken from: Hello World. The Scout Association 1985 |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: Amos Date: 06 Oct 06 - 10:59 AM Limbo, limbo, limbo with me! Who's gonna sit in Limbo with me! It always puzzles me when metaphysics allegedly handed down from the divine gets submitted for re-work to an obviously human clutch of pompous theorists. It's as if Rumsfeild were to publically call a meeting of oil executives to discuss their needs or something. A |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: GUEST,Paul Burke lost his biscuit Date: 06 Oct 06 - 11:23 AM In Ireland, I found the separate graveyards for unbaptised children (killeens) very moving. There must have been many of them given the huge perinatal death rate of old. No headstones or other markers, just the memory of the local people to keep their location. I always thought the doctrine was a touch rough on the Holy Innocents. But if the souls of the unbaptised now go to heaven, doesn't that make abortion a sacrament? |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: Michael Date: 06 Oct 06 - 12:51 PM So where now do we drink the cold waters? |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: Kaleea Date: 06 Oct 06 - 01:10 PM It is odd that a mere human creature, who only uses 6-8% of it's brain, thinks that it can define that which is the creator of all that is in every universe, or the will of the creator. |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: John MacKenzie Date: 06 Oct 06 - 01:27 PM Man on radio today asked "If the Catholic church is getting rid of limbo, will they be getting rid of mumbo and jumbo as well?' It worked for me. Giok. |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: Mooh Date: 06 Oct 06 - 01:41 PM John...Good one, but what about jingo? Peace, Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: Greg B Date: 06 Oct 06 - 01:42 PM John Paul II could do it. Good skier, all-around athlete. But as Benedict tried it, his heel got caught in the hem of his cassock. As any good altar boy knows, that's a recipe for disaster. |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: GUEST Date: 06 Oct 06 - 01:46 PM You mean the Catholic Church made it up all along? What else did they just 'make up' and claim it was an infallible doctrine? |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: MMario Date: 06 Oct 06 - 01:49 PM marriage as a religious rather then civil action; celibacy for priests; confession; and virtually every facet of organized Christian religion other then the eucharist and baptism. |
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Subject: ADD: Limbo From: RTim Date: 06 Oct 06 - 02:39 PM LIMBO I am a poor lad and my fortune is bad, And if ever I gets rich 'tis a wonder, I've spent all my money on girls and strong beer, And what riches I had are all plundered. Field after field to market I sent, Till my land was all gone and my money all spent, My heart was so hard that I never could repent, And 'twas that that brought me to Limbo. Once I could run whilst other did lie, And strut like a crow in the gutter, The people all said that saw me pass by, There goes Mr. Fop in a flutter; To the top and top-gallant I hoisted my sails, With a fine fringy cravat and a wig with three tails, And now I am ready to gnaw my own nails, And drink the cold water of Limbo. I had an old Uncle lived down in the West, And he heard of my sad disaster, Poor soul! after that he could never take no rest, For his troubles came faster and faster; He came to the gaol to view my sad case, And as soon as I saw him I knew his old face, I stood gazing on him like one in amaze, I wished myself safe out of Limbo. Jack, if I should set you once more on your legs, And put you in credit and fashion, Oh! will you leave off those old rakish ways, And try for to govern your passion? Yes Uncle, says I, if you will set me free, I surely will always be ruled by thee, And I'll labour my bones for the good of my soul, And I'll pay them for laying me in Limbo. He pulled out his purse with three thousand pounds, And he counted it out in bright guineas, And when I was free from the prison gates, I went to see Peggy and Jeannie; In my old ragged clothes they knew nought of my gold, They turned me all out in the wet and the cold, You'd a-laughed for to hear how those hussies did scold, How they jawed me for laying in Limbo. I'd only been there a very short time, Before my pockets they then fell to picking, I banged them as long as my cane I could hold, Until they fell coughing and kicking, The one bawled out, Murder! the other did scold, I banged them as long as my cane I could hold, I banged their old bodies for the good of their souls, And I paid them for laying me in Limbo. Source: Frank Purslow, Marrowbones, EFDSS 1965 Notes: Noted by George Gardiner from James Brooman, Upper Faringdon, Hampshire, 1908 Quoted from Frank Purslow, Marrowbones, EFDSS 1965.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: Joe Offer Date: 06 Oct 06 - 03:06 PM Well, back in my (Catholic) seminary days in the 1960's, I was taught that Limbo was a theological invention that dates back to the time of St. Augustine (354-430 AD). Here's a quote from Fr. Richard McBrien's Harper Collins Encyclopedia of Catholicism:
...Neither officially defined nor abrogated by the Catholic Church, this theological postulate plays no role in contemporary Catholic theology. Here's a press release dated December, 2005, from the Catholic News Service:
Closing the doors of limbo: Theologians say it was hypothesis By Cindy Wooden Catholic News Service VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- An international group of Vatican-appointed theologians is about to recommend that the Catholic Church close the doors of limbo forever. Many Catholics grew up thinking limbo -- the place where babies who have died without baptism spend eternity in a state of "natural happiness" but not in the presence of God -- was part of Catholic tradition. Instead, it was a hypothesis -- a theory held out as a possible way to balance the Christian belief in the necessity of baptism with belief in God's mercy. Like hypotheses in any branch of science, a theological hypothesis can be proven wrong or be set aside when it is clear it does not help explain Catholic faith. Meeting Nov. 28-Dec. 2 (2005) at the Vatican, the International Theological Commission, a group of theologians led by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger until his election as Pope Benedict XVI, completed its work on a statement regarding "the fate of babies who have died without baptism." A press release said the commission's statement would focus on the question "in the context of God's universal saving plan, the uniqueness of the mediation of Christ and the sacramentality of the church in the order of salvation." U.S. Archbishop William J. Levada, president of the theological commission in his role as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, told Pope Benedict Dec. 1 that he hoped the statement would be published soon. Archbishop Levada said the question is important because "the number of babies not baptized has increased considerably" and the church knows that salvation "is only reachable in Christ through the Holy Spirit." But the church, "as mother and teacher," also must reflect on how God saves all those created in his image and likeness, particularly when the individual is especially weak "or not yet in possession of the use of reason and freedom," the archbishop said. Redemptorist Father Tony Kelly, an Australian member of the commission, told Catholic News Service "the limbo hypothesis was the common teaching of the church until the 1950s. In the past 50 years, it was just quietly dropped. "We all smiled a bit when we were presented with this question, but then we saw how many important questions it opened," including questions about the power of God's love, the existence of original sin and the need for baptism, he said. "Pastorally and catechetically, the matter had been solved" with an affirmation that somehow God in his great love and mercy would ensure unbaptized babies enjoyed eternal life with him in heaven, "but we had to backtrack and do the theology," Father Kelly said. A conviction that babies who died without baptism go to heaven was not something promoted only by people who want to believe that God saves everyone no matter what they do. Pope John Paul II believed it. And so does Pope Benedict. In the 1985 book-length interview, "The Ratzinger Report," the future Pope Benedict said, "Limbo was never a defined truth of faith. Personally -- and here I am speaking more as a theologian and not as prefect of the congregation -- I would abandon it, since it was only a theological hypothesis. "It formed part of a secondary thesis in support of a truth which is absolutely of first significance for faith, namely, the importance of baptism," he said. In "God and the World," published in 2000, he said limbo had been used "to justify the necessity of baptizing infants as early as possible" to ensure that they had the "sanctifying grace" needed to wash away the effects of original sin. While limbo was allowed to disappear from the scene, the future pope said, Pope John Paul's teaching in the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" and the encyclical "The Gospel of Life" took "a decisive turn." Without theological fanfare, Pope John Paul "expressed the simple hope that God is powerful enough to draw to himself all those who were unable to receive the sacrament," the then-cardinal said. Father Kelly said turning away from the idea of limbo was part of "the development of the theological virtue of hope" and reflected "a different sense of God, focusing on his infinite love." The Redemptorist said people should not think the changed focus is a lightweight embrace of warm, fuzzy feelings. "The suffering, death and resurrection of Christ must call the shots," he said. "If Christ had not risen from the dead, we never would have thought of original sin," because no one would have needed to explain why absolutely every human needed Christ's salvation. The fact that God loves his creatures so much that he sent his Son to die in order to save them means that there exists an "original grace" just as there exists "original sin," Father Kelly said. The existence of original grace "does not justify resignation," or thinking that everyone will be saved automatically, he said, "but it does justify hope beyond hope" that those who die without having had the opportunity to be baptized will be saved. END In response to the question, "What else did they just 'make up' and claim it was an infallible doctrine?" MMario sez:
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: Amos Date: 06 Oct 06 - 06:28 PM Lord Gawd Allmighty!! They gonna change the architecture of the Hereaftah, jes' on the say-so of some guy in a pointy hat???? Lawdamercy!! Say, where can I get me one of them hats? I gotta few idees I'd like to try out at this architectin' buziness... A |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: Rapparee Date: 06 Oct 06 - 07:52 PM What the heck is this going to do to Dante's First Circle? Will the Inferno have to be rewritten? Per me si va ne la città dolente, vita per me si va ne l'etterno dolore per me si va tra la perduta gente. Giustizia mosse il mio alto fattore; fecemi la divina podestate, la somma sapïenza e 'l primo amore. Dinanzi a me non fuor cose create se non etterne, e io etterno duro. Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate. As they say as you enter Washington, DC.... |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 06 Oct 06 - 07:55 PM " a mere human creature, who only uses 6-8% of it's brain" Most, apparently not even that much... |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: The Shambles Date: 07 Oct 06 - 03:38 AM Bending your knees and arching your back helps. Young boys doing this with some boy scout leaders in close proximity - is not to be recommended. Mind you it is difficult to see how you can Limbo without doing this. |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: Greg F. Date: 07 Oct 06 - 10:46 AM OK then: what happens to the Pagan Babies? Direct answer, no weaseling. |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: Amos Date: 07 Oct 06 - 12:23 PM Same thing that happens to people who vote for Democratic Candidates. They get the nod and the smile, but they are ignored once the die is cast. A |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: julian morbihan Date: 07 Oct 06 - 01:37 PM So does that mean that at the moment Limbo is in limbo??? |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: Don Firth Date: 07 Oct 06 - 02:02 PM You're sitting there holding the phone, waiting to speak to technical support. You're forlorn hope is that some time in the future, someone will come on the line. He'll say something like "Hello, my name is Kevin. How may I help you?" but he'll be speaking with a distinctly East Indian accent. In the meantime, you're listening to The 101 Strings playing a pop arrangement of Pachelbel's Canon. And it plays over and over and over and over and over and over and. . . . That's Limbo. Don Firth P. S. It's nice of the Pope to abolish it. I really appreciate that. |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: The Shambles Date: 07 Oct 06 - 03:11 PM That's Limbo. No that's the future. |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: fat B****rd Date: 07 Oct 06 - 03:34 PM Don't knoew about all this Purgatory stuff etc. I do like Chubby Checker's "Limbo Rock" mind you. |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: Greg F. Date: 07 Oct 06 - 06:11 PM Man, will it never end? what's next? The Bossa Nova? |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: Don Firth Date: 07 Oct 06 - 06:47 PM No, Shambles, that's now! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 07 Oct 06 - 09:05 PM If "God is powerful enough to draw to himself all those who were unable to receive the sacrament", and those who reject him for "intellectual reasons", including to have Faith in that which they cannot see personally demonstrated, such as Thomas, then it doesn't matter what you do, as long as you don't practise "negative acts", for if you try to have "Moral Values", we are all saved anyway. Thus Good Atheists go to heaven too. ... but they are kept behind a high wall, as God is merciful enough to not want to disillusion them that they were wrong... :-0 |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 07 Oct 06 - 09:10 PM "what happens to the Pagan Babies?" They go to Limbo, until sufficient prayers and cash donations have been made to save their souls. How much is 'sufficient'? Ah.... you can never be sure... :-) |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: Don Firth Date: 08 Oct 06 - 03:31 AM And, Foolestroupe, I'm sure you're aware that one of the reasons for that high wall is so that the more hard-charging Christian fundies (at least those who weren't such total asses that they got sent to the Other Place) won't know that the atheists made it to heaven too. If they ever found out, they'd be so upset that Heaven would no longer be Heaven for them. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: lady penelope Date: 08 Oct 06 - 05:12 AM What happens to the pagan babies? Well it depends on the kind of pagan they are. Some get reborn, some move onto 'higher plane of existence' some go into the afterworld particular to their religion. There is absolutely no reason why a pagan baby would end up in a christian theological construct. |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Oct 06 - 10:13 AM What happens to all those souls that were already there then? :D (tG) |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: Greg F. Date: 08 Oct 06 - 10:37 AM What happens to all those souls that were already there then? Precisely! i.e., the Pagan Babies, among others. |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: Amos Date: 08 Oct 06 - 11:02 AM Interesting point -- how do so many get so beguiled? A |
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Subject: RE: What no Limbo? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 08 Oct 06 - 09:44 PM Remember, those who 'know God utterly' haved moved beyond the bounds of mere Faith... |
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