BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 07:22 PM

Oh, one more thing,

Actually, probably one last thing,

I think you will find that this matter will slip away into the cesspit of media gone by now that she's done the rounds.

She'll feature in a few womens magazines talking about the miracle of david banda, but the issue of malawi will also fade away, having never really featured in the first place.

The relief workers and campaigners will get back into the swing of it, hoping that maybe they can capitalize on the wave of publicity that was created, but pretty soon life will be back to normal for them, and madonna will lick her wounds, put it behind her and correct the mistakes she made on that all important public persona "MADONNA - EARTH MOTHER"

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 07:18 PM

Well, I formed a connection with him just by seeing a picture. I think adoptive parents do this all the time with children they just see in pictures or videos. The problem is that there are millions of children, probably similar to him, that nobody with sufficient means has formed a connection to...I am sure there are struggling people locally who would or have but they can't keep the diseases away...in one year of life he has survived (I read) both tuberculosis and malaria. How many more bullets should he dodge while they sort this out? mg

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 07:12 PM

Well on the BBC interview she said she "formed a connection" with him whilst watching a video, before she met him!

She wanted to meet him after a few views so that she could form a more emotional bond.

Come on. These are the words of a fantasist.

How many deranged fans have "formed relationships" with her over the years. Even I as a teenager may have "formed" a few relationships with her - but never for more than about 3 minutes. ;-)

She claimed that she tried to offer the father the means by which he might support his own son, but that he refused, insisting (no doubt against her strongest protest) that she take him away.

mmm hmmm ... but he changed his mind later ... aaaaaahhhh ...

... I seeee ... ?!?         8-| (not impressed)

On the subject of media attention, it seems she brought her own film crew, so her "privacy" was fully intended to be very publicly shared right from the start.

Oh yes, and a quick reminder, adopting a child and the challenges of poverty and health in Malawi are two very distinct and seperate issues.

A child needed medical attention and food, so she adopted him.

At least that's one thing they'll have in common - a constant need for attention.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 05:25 PM

Well, of course I agree on the abusive parents being kept out. I think this is a case where her lack of abusiveness to children can be documented and if they can speed up the process and have one child serve as a model for other adoptions, and contributions so that families can raise them and regular charity etc.....then I am all for the speed up process. Pictures of a cute kid in Baby Gap and Geranimals will do more for Malawi orphans than six books of tragedy on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 04:29 PM

But mg, those concerns that you have mentioned are so F****ng important that it has to be a monumental imperative that in this of all matters double standards are not allowed.

What's more, Madonna, no doubt being more aware of these issues after weeks of having been confronted with them, should be backing down and at least saying:

"I made a mistake, I would rather go through the correct procedures and teach by example how to take a responsible attitude than be seen to encourage the irresponsible approach, or indeed to encourage the malawian government or any other from welcoming people in to do as I have done."

She is setting a precedent which will have a massive global cultural impact. If she had any guts she would back down.

mg

Your post has eloquently convinced me of the opposite conclusion to the one you have reached, more than any other that I have read.
Read it back. They are your admissions.

"Of course we need strong rules everywhere to prevent slave traders, and child molesters and all sorts of unfit and abusive types to swoop into a country and take children away"

and then

"this is a person who is totally in the public eye"

That is absolutely why it should NOT be happening.

And mg, I know you. you commented with great relevance on a thread of mine that I posted recently and you had much to say that was very useful and helpful. You also displayed a perspective that tells me that deep down you agree with me.

OK, maybe I'm being a bit arrogant in that claim, but I'm prepared to risk it as a suggestion at least.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 01:10 PM

You know, every negative word someone says about this, and it seems that despite her numerous faults Madonna is a good mother, hurts the children she is trying to help. She could and has done work to set up an orphanage there to help many orphans. I wish she had chosen a baby without family...but there is no doubt in my mind that she loves this baby, wants to have him in her family, should have done things differently, but I for one do not doubt her motives at all. Of course we need strong rules everywhere to prevent slave traders, and child molesters and all sorts of unfit and abusive types to swoop into a country and take children away, but this is a person who is totally in the public eye, could have 6 live in social workers if necessary. I don't care if she cut to the front of the line...this will ultimately help to shorten the line for everyone and get some babies taken care of. mg

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 01:03 PM

Well,

She's on BBC newsnight tonight at 10.30pm.

What will she say? will she tell the truth?

It should hopefully be a slightly more revealing interview than Oprah's

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 04:45 PM

Wolfgang.

The first few times I read your post, I inferred several different types of possible irony.

It pains me to admit that I have only just really understood the joke.

And to think of all the subtlety I was crediting you with possessing.

If I groan any louder, the neighbours are going to either call a doctor or the police.

You have a stain on your conscience!

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 03:40 PM

This thread has suddenly turned evil ...

lol

more more ...

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 10:35 AM

Not to be outdone, Oprah is planning the most outrageous give away ever attempted on TV. Unlike the time she gave away new cars to everyone who had a number taped under the auditorium seats, this time everyone with an even number will get a brand new Malawan boy and the odd number tickets will get a new Malawan girl.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Wolfgang
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 09:08 AM

then it follows that you don't care about dying african children with aids

But they are already black, aren't they.

Wolfgang (on a trip of deliberate misunderstanding)

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Lox
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 09:47 AM

Big Phil.

That is such an ignorant and offensive comment to make.

You have obviously made no attempt to understand what this thread is about.

On one hand you're saying you don't care whether the ritchies adopt or not, then in your next breath you're expressing your point of view on the subject.

You're happy to tell people that they're wrong, yet you aren't interested in knowing what they are actually talking about.

Come on mate, you can't have it both ways.

Either engage the subject or leave it alone.

While we are on the subject of whose business it is, it clearly isn't just that of the Ritchies.

It is, for example, the business of the childs father. (If you don't know what I'm talking about I suggest you read back)

It is also the business of anyone who believes that adoption of children should be done in a responsible way so as to ensure that their best interests are not overlooked. (again, you'll have to read back to know what I'm talking about)

In this case, there are many people who are of the view that this adoption should not be happening because it might be bad for the child being adopted. (just to make sure you don't repeat something someone said at the start that has already been discussed, I again suggest reading back)

When you see or hear about someone doing something bad, it is your business to show concern (if you want to), and if someone else disagrees with your reasons, it is your business to scrutinize the issues (if you want to) to see to what extent your concerns are justified.

That is how societies make sure that people don't get away with doing bad things. Without this kind of healthy debate we may as well go back to the jungle and beat each other with clubs.

It is important, that neither Madonna nor anyone else is allowed to get away with abusing their media status and financial clout, when it comes to taking risks with other peoples welfare. especially the welfare of children.

If you aren't interested then let those of us who are get on with it.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 12:16 AM

But it is the business of others if she is seen to be flouting rules that other lesser (well off) mortals have to abide by... see the original posting where it gives details of the Malawi adoption process.

She has not been a resident in the country for 18 days, let alone months. She has shown she will readily take the child out of the country. Malawi law forbids overseas adoptions, it insists on 18 months of residency, it insists on suitability checks. The child has a living parent who doesn't appear to have been correctly informed.

Regardless of her motives and other charitable acts, she is breaking the laws of the land and passing the wrong messages to couples who want to adopt but must go through the correct procedures.

This whole issue gives the impression that anyone with a big handfull of dollars can just come and take a child irrespective of due legal process. How many 'Celebs' will now want an African child (or in the words of Waynetta Slob - "I wanna a brahn baybee, every uvva muvva on the estate's go' wun") because Madonna has one?

I agree that every child has the right to a loving home, and that not every loving home is with its birth parents, but being rich in material goods does not always make one rich in spirit, heart or mind.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Big Phil
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 11:38 PM

Don't care if Madonna and husband adopts one or one hundred kids, it is up to them and is the business of no one else......

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 09:55 AM

You'd think that adoption was the best if not the only way to help.

It seems that madonna and her apologists are advocating without any sense of Irony that we should all be going and adopting kids from third world countries to do our bit to help.

YES - I think that approach SHOULD be discouraged. Madonna is WRONG to suggest that it is something to be encouraged.

It is a grossly irresponsible attitude to have.

Believe it or not there ARE OTHER WAYS of helping.

LOTS of other ways.

They involve trying to help the many rather than the few. They involve dealing with the issues surrounding the children properly.

She has advisors. She is surrounded by dignitaries who want their photo's taken with her who all possess enough information about how she can ACTUALLY BE OF REAL HELP to the children of Malawi and the country of malawi.

Again - to simplify

Adoption <-> poverty in malawi = SEPERATE ISSUES

The adoption thing is reprehensible. I'm sorry, but she has no excuse. Little David banda is the equivalent for madonna of one of those little reward stickers you get when you put money in a collecting jar on the high street.

"I'm a friend of malawi"

Is the kid going to wear a sweatshirt with the message "madonna saved me" on it? he might as well because he's going to known for it regardless of what the media say.

She has done it for herself. She wants the child and she gets what she wants.

Risks? - oh don't worry, she'll cross that bridge when she comes to it. She'll just give him a red bracelet and tell him to look within and how much it helped her.

She'll give him the same self centred crap that she gives the media and he'll never feel listened to.

Sorry, but she makes me puke.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 09:36 AM

how can he be an orphan if he has a father

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 11:20 PM

Oh for heavens sake it is not a stunt. There are easier ways to pull off a stunt than having an ill baby in your already hectic life, from a totally different culture etc. This will do a tremendous amount for getting other children adopted, which in their dire circumstances is better than them picking food out of garbage heaps, as they do in other countries...4,000 children will have a new orphanage. Lots of people will contribute however they can, whether through adoption, money, whatever. She means well, has done this clumsily, but a life has been saved and many more will be as result of her actions, done out of whatever motivations she has. mg

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 04:15 PM

Sometimes I'm glad my sound card is screwed....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 08:34 AM

actually,

it might be more worthwhile clicking here

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 08:31 AM

Oprrahs question,

Were you hurt?

Not hurt, more disappointed. (and that's meant to be reassuring?)

Straight away the focus is on MADONNA

And then Madonna goes on to imply that if you disagree with her adopting the kid then it follows that you don't care about dying african children with aids.

It's all the media's fault, thoughh apparently she iis aware that they have been known to concentrate on gossip outrage and hype.

Duh! I wouldn't have inagined she was aware of that - would you?

Come on - the mother teresa act doesn't wash. Lie's are never isolated, they travel in mutually supportive groups.

I see a smokescreen and the disappointment of a stunt gone wrong.

She implies that she never gave the papers a thought - uh huh - and the pope is a member of Jihad and bears use portaloos!

Check here , thoughh therre isn't really enough info to make thhis debate any more interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 05:16 AM

I also wonder at the wisdom of her adopting a child who has a living parent. Time will tell.

This is only speculation but perhaps it was not wisdom but just seeing a little boy and being told the child did have a living parent who for all intents and purposes he may as well not have had?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 02:24 AM

Hi Becca
It may be as you said "I guess maybe it's either my generation or my area", it could be the same with me, I am a bit older & I live in an area where (southern New Hampshire) where we give cows credit for the area education systems. Maybe in part too that I'm always kept up by family discussions. My sister-in-law is Paula Donovan (you can google her) so the family hear's 1st hand of the worst of what happens over there in Africa & far more than any news media will try to sell, because the situation is so horrid so it could also be a case of what's relative too. Hopefully we'll be seeing positive changes soon in the UN on who gets to lead & create new AIDS/HIV policly & who's gonna be handling it.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 08:19 PM

If indeed the mother died of AIDS, perhaps the father has it also..it would not be that unlikely, in which case it might be best all around this way. It is sad to part a child from either parent. Sometimes the world can be so awful that it is better than the alternatives. Who was it?//Stalin, who said 1 child dying is a tragedy; 20 million is a statistic. She has brought one child into the world's eyes, like Angelina Jolie and others have done, and there will be a ripple effect. mg

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 07:26 PM

No problem. I also wonder at the wisdom of her adopting a child who has a living parent. Time will tell.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Becca72
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 07:21 PM

My apologies, GUEST. It was a rather ambiguous remark and I took it to mean they thought she enlightened the world on the plight of Africa as a whole.

I have never cared for Madonna as an artist but I will give her credit for her charity work. She does worlds more than others. I still believe that she could have found a better way to help other than taking a child away from his father.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 07:14 PM

Yes becca I thought that was the post you were referring to, as I said before please read the post it was in response to.

We were specifically discussing the plight of a UK couple who are experiencing problems re adoption. Which we are now aware of because of the madonna situation.

I would have been as surprised as you had someone attributed world enlightenment to madonna.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Becca72
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 06:42 PM

GUEST 5:55PM:

"Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 03:06 PM

Well we were unaware of the problem before so of course the madonna case has helped. It has brought the problem to the public's attention.

Will it change anything remains to be seen, but there is zero chance of that happening without publicity."

Barry,
I guess maybe it's either my generation or my area (I believe it's more likely my generation) but the average American in my age bracket knows a lot more than you're given them credit for of the going's on in Africa. But we're also one of the first generations to have Aids be so prominent in our lives. I remember at 10 or 12 years old (early '80s) hearing about "safe sex" and the "Aids epidemic". Maybe that's the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 06:42 PM

I didn't get to hear Madonna on Oprah but here's what went down. see: http://www2.oprah.com/index.jhtml

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 06:23 PM

Becca
While the world may be aware of the poverty & the AIDS/HIV problem in Africa I don't think that the average American does know how bad the situation really is & I agree that Madonna's situation doesn't shed any more light on it either, regretfully. If you questioned the man, women or child on the street I think that they'd be shocked to find out that in Africa alone 20 million have died from AIDS/HIV & even more so that 40 million are now living with it. Further more I don't think they'd care all that much either. The same with the policies of their own government. If it does not apply to them directly & affect them in their day to day living then it's something that they'd simply rather not know about or at least not know the details of. Being an American I say this with a sore heart because but that is how I see it.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 05:55 PM

I can not see a post that states she 'made the world aware of the aids/poverty in Africa.' I would agree with you if there was one that it is a gross generalisation.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Becca72
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 05:03 PM

Guest 4:13, I had no intention of suggesting that Madonna shed light on the Aids crisis of Africa by adopting this boy. But it was mentioned above that she has made the world aware of the problems in Africa (poverty AND Aids) and I think that's giving her a bit more credit than she is due.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 04:13 PM

becca please see the post of 25/10/06 at 10.21am which will let you know the problem we were discussing. I don't think anyone has intimated madonna has brought the aids problem to the publics attention.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Becca72
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 03:47 PM

I'm sorry if this comes out snobbish, but anyone who was unaware that Africa suffers from severe poverty and an AIDS crisis before Madonna tried to adopt this little boy has been living in a very deep hole for the last 20 years.

I would have a lot more respect for her if she just donated money to the country/village/family instead of taking this little boy away from his father. It may not be true, but it appears to the world like she's just jumping on the bandwagon of celebrity adoptions that are currently fashionable.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 03:06 PM

Well we were unaware of the problem before so of course the madonna case has helped. It has brought the problem to the public's attention.

Will it change anything remains to be seen, but there is zero chance of that happening without publicity.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 02:37 PM

But will it help?

Call me an old sceptic if you like... (it's true after all)

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 02:22 PM

I think rather than hurting this couple, Madonna's adoption will help them by pointing things like this out. Once the sun shines on problems, solutions can come forth. mg

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 10:21 AM

As a contrast a story was published in one of the UK sunday papers, I think the Mail, of a Malawi couple resident in Britain who are trying to adopt their neice, a malawi orphan both of whose parents died of Aids. They are faced with a wait of two years while the child is "cared" for by a grandmother who can do little else but feed the child as she has to spend most of her day working. The child is left sitting alone all day in her grandmother's yard.
Needless to say the couple, although by the account are hard working, do not have three million to give to the Malawi government.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Lox
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 09:52 AM

We don't get Oprah here in the uk - though I'm sure they'll feature some selected footage on the news.

Maybe it'll be on youtube.

Either way, I'll be curious to know what she has to say exactly.

I stand to be corrected, but I'll bet the focus of what Madonna has to say is about herself.

" ... I've really had an awakening ... you really learn about yourself ... etc ..."

And I doubt Oprah will ask anything too penetrating. It's not her job. She does hype for a living. She will pander to madonna's ego.

God I'm jealous - what a sad man I've become - I'm salivating at the thought.

I won't be able to participate in the debate - aaarrgh!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 03:55 AM

Madonna on Oprah wiht no media twist????///




























NNNAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 11:59 PM

Thank you both.

I do here that Madonna will be on Oprah tomorrow the 25th but I don't remember the time. She will be interviewed by the bog O herself & she's doing this to explain her story.
At least we'll have one side of this without the media twist in it, maybe.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 07:43 PM

I disagree Lox... I'm all for a gentleman bending the knee now and then.... but in this case, no problem.

LTS










Actually... it's men who AREN'T gentlemen you have to watch out for when they bend the knee.....

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Becca72
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 04:25 PM

"I think it deeply offensive to our forum that some anonymous fellow poster (possibly kat herself) is permitted to now judge and silently delete, move, re-title my posts and those of others and provide no evidence or explanation for this imposed action - in the form of an editing comment." Cut from Shambles post.


Looks to me like you DID make that suggestion, Sham.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 03:13 PM

Once the fad is over, Mdonna would be happy to return the kid to him...also that would serve her need to be in the public eye.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 01:06 PM

It is a tragedy unfolding. One would hope that in these adoptions people would make so sure there were no close relatives who would later claim the baby..this has happened before of course...mg

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Lox
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 10:07 AM

Barry,

I am sure Liz would agree that no knee bowing is necessary. Had you not raised the issues you had in the way you did, that area of discourse might not have been explored in the way it was.

Rigorous scrutiny is the key to effective debate and I for one applaud you for your honesty, clarity of thought and your ethics, which I believe remain unbowed.

Next time it will be the other way around, and we will both, again, have a little extra wisdom under our belts, and a litle extra value to our lives.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 09:35 AM

Madona may have to bring the kid back.
Rush Limbaugh said she could still probably adopt Barok Obama if nothing else works out.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 01:48 AM

Liz if that is the case I have nothing to stand on so I bow my knee to you.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 05:46 PM

You have hijacked enough threads with your persecution complex.

I don't have a persecution complex - I am being persecuted.

Not too sure what hijacking a thread is (it does not appear for posters to be encouraged to ignore a threads subject with concerted efforts to place recipes, jokes and personal judgements in it) but is it really possible to hijack one's own thread?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 03:24 PM

Not going there, Shambles. You have hijacked enough threads with your persecution complex.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 01:39 PM

Shambles, I do NOT argue as an anonymous guest. If you ever truly read my postings about anon. guests, you'd know that. But, that wouldn't serve your egenda, would it?

I made no such suggestion of course.

You will accept that although you are prepared to be known to operate as a 'moderator' and feel yourself now qualified to impose your judgement on your fellow posters - there are others who choose to do this anonymously - and are permitted to do this anonymously?