BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder

Subject: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 07:26 AM

Since we've had a thread bemoaning the lack of Irish Threads, here is a link to a UTV Storey that may be of interest.
UTV Newsroom

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 09:09 AM

In case the link is removed, here are some excerpts. :
British being urged to investigate findings

The Irish government has been urged to step up diplomatic pressure on United Kingdom Prime Minister Tony Blair to investigate evidence of alleged British state collusion in 74 sectarian murders

Pressure was building on Taoiseach (Prime Minister - Eddie)Bertie Ahern to take action after an international panel of human rights experts published a report into killings on both sides of the Irish border in the 1970s.

The 115-page document, which took two and a half years to complete, uncovered considerable evidence of British army and police involvement in 25 loyalist atrocities, its authors claimed. The probe included the May 1974 Dublin Monaghan bombings which claimed 33 lives, and the Miami Showband massacre in July 1975 in which three musicians and two members of the Ulster Volunteer Force gang died.
....
Head of the investigation team, University of Notre Dame human rights law Professor Douglass Cassell, said he would urge the Irish government to act on its recommendations during a meeting with officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs.
Independent TD for Dublin North Central Finian McGrath called on the Taoiseach to establish a special summit with the British government to deal with the evidence.

The report found that senior Royal Ulster Constabulary officers were aware and approved of collusion while London officials had enough information to intervene.

The human rights experts - including Piers Pigou, an investigator with the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and Susie Kemp, an international lawyer based in The Hague - gathered and scrutinised documentary, testimonial and ballistics evidence....

Professor Cassell said the British government was duty-bound under international law to investigate the alleged state involvement in the terrorist killings.

It was in Britain`s interests to fully investigate how "a democracy that purports to respect the rule of law could go so far off the rails as to have its police and army officers involved in, according to our findings, 74 murders," he said.

After meeting Irish government officials, Professor Cassell is to hold talks with US government representatives, the Committee of Ministers in the Council of Europe and the Joint Committee of Human Rights at Westminster about his findings....

"If the British government is going to make sure that this kind of thing doesn`t happen again, it needs to understand how it happened this time and make sure the changes are made to try to prevent it in the future....

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 09:10 AM

And how much collusion did the IRA murderers get from the Irish police and army in running away back over the border after their cowardly attacks?

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Den
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 09:33 AM

Well guest you could look into that and then get back to us with some hard facts as opposed to conjecture. The question I think remains how could a Government collude in the murder of some of its citizens at the whim of other of its citizens?

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Den
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 09:48 AM

I think too that there is enough evidence in the public domain to suggest that you can safely remove the word alleged from the thread title.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 10:04 AM

War is war. The ashes are raked when it's over but only the bones of the innocent are found, the innocent of both sides betrayed and murdered by the guilty of both sides. Nothing changes. There is nothing to learn. It will always happen again, somewhere else, another time.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 10:04 AM

"And how much collusion did the IRA murderers get from the Irish police and army in running away back over the border after their cowardly attacks?"

A fair question guest. I have heard allegations of this, but I haven't seen any hard evidence. Frankly, given the length of time the (modern) troubles have gone on, & the strength of feeling involved, I would be surprised if there were no incidents of collusion by individuals.
Evidence is what is needed though. Times, places, specific incidents, names. And of course how high in the police force it went & whether intelligence services & or politicians were complicit. If you can point me to any information about this guest, I'd be grateful.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 10:10 AM

Guest 10.04 "Nothing changes. There is nothing to learn. It will always happen again, somewhere else, another time."

I greatly hope you are wrong. I wish I could be more confident though.

Did you really believe them when they told you the cause?
Did you really believe them that this war would end war?
The suffering, the sorrow, some the glory, the shame -
The killing and dying - it was all done in vain.
For Willie McBride, it's all happened again
And again, and again, and again, and again.
Eric Bogle

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 09:24 AM

Oh well that's settled then. We did it, but it was the war.

That's probably as near as you're going to get. Did they ever get the whole truth about Parnell, Casement, 1916.... theres still speculation and claim and counter claim.

lets face it, they all lie to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 11:12 AM

Does the thread title sound as awkward and ambiguous to a native speaker as it does to me?

Wolfgang (curious)

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 11:15 AM

Yes. It reads as if 'The British State' is alleged.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: GUEST,Crazy Eddie
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 11:22 AM

Wolfgang,
the original title was something like [b] "A Report alleges that the British State was guilty of collusion in 74 murders"

This was too long for the Nudcat title box, so I had to prune it.
I tried not to distort the meaning,(eg by removing the "alleged") so I settled for stilted.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 05:33 PM

Alleged Collusion in Murder by Brit State would have done.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 05:56 PM

Crazy Eddie in your second (original) post you reported that some members of a loyalist gang were killed in the Miami Showband Massacre, I do not think this is fact ??
Whatever reasons may be put forward to rationalise British Government and Security Forces collusion with terrorists within their own (British) jurisdiction, there can be none for any collusion that might have allowed loyalists to plant bombs in the jurisdiction of another, friendly, State. Or can there ?

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Den
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 06:46 PM

Beachcomber, Harris Boyle and Wesley Sommerville were members of the UVF and were killed trying to plant a bomb in the Miami Showband's bus between Banbridge and Newry in N. Ireland. There intention was to have the device activate when the band returned to Dublin. When the bomb exploded prematurely the other UVF men shot the band members killing singer Fran O'Toole, trumpet player Tony Geraghty and Brian McCoy. Guitarist Stephen Travers and Des Lee survived. The UVF men were wearing uniforms and used weapons supplied to them by the Ulster Defense Regiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Grab
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 05:06 AM

Fair enough, let's find out about it and try those responsible.

Oh, and let's also ensure that all IRA members who killed or mutilated soldiers and civilians (and more than a few of those were tortured to death) are locked up for life. And the same for the leaders of the IRA (and that means *everyone* at the top of Sinn Fein today) are also put away.

Remember, you don't get the first without the second...

For the record, I despise what the British government and army did to the Catholic population of NI, either by themselves or in collusion with UVF scum. But I equally despise the IRA scum who murdered, tortured and mutilated, and the Eire government who did sod all to catch them. So go figure - do you want them all in prison, or do you want them all free on the basis that it was war? You don't get to apply different rules to different sides.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 05:56 AM

Good post Grab. It seems to me that there will now be years of attempts to prosecute soldiers, yet all the IRA murderers were set free a long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 06:18 AM

Grab, I don't think there is any chance of most of the murderers doing time in prison. That was part of the deal to get a ceasefire.
However, I think it is important that the truth be revealed. It is quite clear to anyone, that the Provisional IRA, INLA, IPLO, UVF, UFF etc. etc. acted illegally.
The question is, to what extent, and at level of seniority, were members of state organisations (UK or RoI), [whose job was to maintain law & order] complicit.

Frankly, given the polarisation that occurred, it was always likely that some members of the police/military would turn a blind eye to certain things done by "their own side". The "few bad apples" scenario.

However, if senior police/army officers, senior civil servants, or even government ministers, who were supposed to uphold the law, were involved in politically motivated murders, the public has a right to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Grab
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 07:13 AM

Does the public also get the right to know about the blind eyes turned by every government official in Eire? Or more significantly, about Gerry Adams' and Martin McGuinness's involvement in overseeing the IRA cells that carried out bombings in Guildford, London, Manchester, Brighton, etc?

If the British government is going to make sure that this kind of thing doesn`t happen again, it needs to understand how it happened this time and make sure the changes are made to try to prevent it in the future

This was 30 years ago in a warzone. You reckon they've not figured it out already?

I'm not saying that any of what they did is right - it clearly isn't. But part of the peace deal in NI is that the British government says "what's past is past", so IRA members aren't prosecuted for past acts and convicted IRA members are released. Suppose the British government started a massive hunt for the bombings which were attributed to the IRA but never had a conviction, what do you think the reaction would be? Even if they said "we're not going to prosecute, but the public has a right to know the truth", what do you think Sinn Fein would say to that? I can tell you right now - they'd say that the British government was starting a witch-hunt to slander the nationalists and had no interest in the peace process. And they'd probably be right, too.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: GUEST,A Different Guest
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 07:39 AM

The IRA say it's done. The UK Government say it's done. IT'S DONE. Which bit of "It's done" don't some people understand? Get over it and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: ard mhacha
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 07:44 AM

The facts are the RUC and the British colluded with Protestant para-militaries and set up Nationalists to be murdered, when British police were sent over to investigate they met with a "wall of silence",.
John Stalker not only got the runaround from the RUC and the Brits, but was set-up and lost his job, Stevens had the same problem.

The plain and simple facts are, there was wide spread collusion by an established government.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 07:53 AM

"Does the public also get the right to know about the blind eyes turned by every government official in Eire?"
Yes, absolutely. As stated in the third line of my post dated 10 Nov 06.18. In fact, if you have any factual evidence of this I'd be very interested in seeing it.

"Or more significantly, about Gerry Adams' and Martin McGuinness's involvement in overseeing the IRA cells that carried out bombings in Guildford, London, Manchester, Brighton, etc?

As members of SF/IRA, they were clearly associated with those atrocities, whether they were involved in planning the specific events or not.

This was 30 years ago in a warzone. You reckon they've not figured it out already?
The British Government of the day never said it was a war. PIRA etc. were treated as criminals, not as enemy combatatants. (IMO they were correct in this, but you can't have it as a warzone when it suits, and not when it doesn't).

If members of a supposedly law-abiding government are complicit in terrorist acts, those who elected them have a right to know, whatever the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 07:58 AM

I don't think any of the above posts have disputed that fact, Ard. I don't think anyone is trying to detract from the seriousness of the situation. I do think though that Grab has a good point. If we are going to be investigating and, presumably, handing out censures depending on the results of those investigations then surely the WHOLE area needs to be investigated, not just one side of it. Isn't that what caused this whole mess in the first place? One law for one side and one for another? I'm genuinely trying to understand here. There were attrocities commited by everyone involved. Why just investigate one part out of the dozens involved? Surely it is now best to close the book on the affair?

One thing I will add. The IRA has had the bottle to step forward and apologise. For that they must be given nothing but admiration. If an apology is what is needed from the Britsh Governemnt then I will do my upmost to let my elected representatives know that that is what I wantas well. I doubt we will ever get Paisley and his rabid crew to do the same but we can all live in hope!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Den
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 08:26 AM

Dave et all, in cases where IRA members were prosecuted under British law they received sentences, served time. To date noone from the British government has ever been charged with any crime associated with the collusion with loyalist paramilitaries. Grab alludes to double standards above but double standards were used when soldiers were charged with murder in N. Ireland. Atleast three cases I know of soldiers served reduced sentences for murder and were released back to their regiments. If memory serves each one served three years in prison. Its all very well to say lets sweep the past under the carpet but that doesn't make the problems go away. The British goverment has a responsibility here to show some kind of leadership. Its been over 30 years since Bloody Sunday and still we will have to wait another year for the report to come out and I'll bet that there will be no charges laid against any of those murders either. As for the Irish government if it is proven that they were implicit in collusion then they should have to answer to those charges aswell. When I speak of murder here I'm speaking of the murder of innocents by their own Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 08:35 AM

Good point, Den - It's easy to forget that people have already been punished for crimes from one side but not the other. It is highly unlikely that anyone in the British Government will ever serve time (except Geofrey Archer but that's a different story...) so what kind of reparation would be acceptable?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 08:50 AM

The British Government always denied that this was a war. That was the basis for refusing POW status to prisoners, and was the cause of the Dirty Proterst and the Hunger Strikes.

It's a bit late now to say "Well, it was a war, so these things happen."

In any case the fact that it was a war does not means that actions carried out may have been criminal. It just means that, if criminal, they were war crimes, and should be treated as such.

There are times when amnesty is necessary and appropriate - but that does not mean that the truth should be concealed. The South African model in which amnesty is conditional on being open about what people have done is one that should be applied in other places.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Les from Hull
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 12:19 PM

Well if there's a chance that we could put Margaret Thatcher in jail, we should go for it!

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:09 PM

Except the Prime Minister at the time of many of these events was Harold Wilson...

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Den
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:43 PM

Ted Heath.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 02:44 PM

Harold Wilson became Prime minister in February 1974, and was there until 1976. The Dublin Monaghan bombings were in May 1974, and the Miami Showband killings were in July 1975.

Ted Heath did his bit too, mind you, including Bloody Sunday, and the subsequent cover-up.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 03:12 PM

"The UVF men were wearing uniforms and used weapons supplied to them by the Ulster Defense Regiment. "
Den, you make it sound as if the UDR supplied the UVF.
The UVF murderers had joined the UDR and used their own uniforms.
They were soon brought to justice, not having protection from any colluding authority.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 03:53 PM

Major Killings in or Associated with Northern Ireland 1969 - 1998 "This table includes all single incidents in which 5 or more people were killed. NB: Many more deaths occurred than these."

Just to remind us, if we need reminding. Please God it's over.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Den
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 04:30 PM

I do indeed Keith, make it sound like the UDR supplied the UVF because that would appear to be what happened. How many soldiers get to take their SLR rifles home at the weekend? How many roadblocks could be set up in an area of high military surveillance unnoticed? We are talking the main Banbridge to Newry road. The showband's vehicles were followed by a blue Triumph 2000 the minute they passed through the RUC's security checkpoint in Banbridge.

So lets move on to the collusion part shall we. Stephen Travers one of the survivors of the attack said that he recalled a soldier with an English accent and wearing a different uniform take charge when the band's van was stopped at the UVF road block. After the band were lined up at the side of the road this soldier began to demand that their names and dates of birth should be taken. Then the explosion happened the UVF men were ordered to fire on the band members. Travers survived by pretending to be dead and Des McAlea escaped across a field. The forensic tests on the weapons used to murder the band members revealed the links of the gang to a series of sectarian killings right across the so-called 'murder triangle'.

For years after the event it has been claimed that the killings were organised by Captain Robert Nairac, the British intelligence operative killed by the IRA in 1977. That would certainly account for the soldier with the English accent in Travers' statement. That claim has also been made by, among others, the former intelligence operator Fred Holyroyd. And how about this for another piece of collusion there was evidential linkage to Nairac's presence at the killing of John Francis Green an IRA escapee from the Maze six months earlier. The gun that was used to kill Green was also used to kill band member Brian McCoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 05:51 PM

Yes that's the tricky bit. According to the Spycatcher bloke - the security forces were all putting as much effort as possible into destabilising the elected Labour governmant. So although you could make a case for prosecuting those responsible - you have to remember, it wasn't necessarily the elected politicians.

And lets face it, no elected government in England seems to have the stomach for cleaning out this particular set of stables.

so you have no real way of being sure you can get to the bottom of the situation.

I wonder if anybody caught Tebbit's tv interview last night. Apparently he feels that the IRA's peace initiative should have been seen as a declaration of weakness, and we should have pressed home our believed advantage. Given that, its hard to escape the conclusion that if the Thatcherite element were still in charge of the country, we'd all still be up to our ears in the conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 01:39 AM

Reading through what I wrote last night, I am somwhat reminded of something James Connolly once said or wrote. Something to the effect, that you can say - well you can't blame the people of England for Ireland's problems, I'm afraid that I do.

For after all, why did we get rid of Thatcher? Was it because her intransigence over Ireland that was getting people killed on the streets? No it was because she couldn't run a piss up in a brewery when it came to economics. One generation of kids had grown up without a job - bringing with it all kinds of social ills, for apparently no good reason. And if we had left it to her, things would have doutless continued that way.

Really it was only when people were getting killed that it was in the consciousness of the English people. And yet who would want that back. (rhetorical question)

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 07:27 AM

"We" didn't get rid of Thatcher. Her loyal friends did the job for us.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 08:55 AM

In Den`s detailed post it may be noted that Miami band member Stephen Travers was a northern Protestant,his evidence was crucial in arresting the UDR soldiers involved.

Nairac who operated around the south Armagh area later on went"missing",
his body was never found.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 01:00 PM

How would the murder of a band further british establishment policies?
It sounds much more like a sectarian hate crime.
Were the killings carried out with UDR issue rifles?

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 01:33 PM

As has been indicated earlier, it appears that the murder of the band in the way it was carried out was not pre-planned. It is believed that the idea was to use them as a way of carrying a bomb to be detonated later, which could be blamed on the IRA.

When it went off prematurely, the band members were shot on the spot, presumably because they could have been inconvenient witnesses. It was clearly a botched operation, but that proves nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Den
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 04:42 PM

Keith, maybe I should have been more clear in my post but I thought you would be able to read between the lines. McGrath has hit the nail on the head. The bomb was being planted in the van to be detonated in the Republic of Ireland. The killing of the band members was to ensure there would be no witnesses after the placement of the bomb was botched.

Maybe a more interesting question you shold be asking or pondering Keith, is how would a bomb intended for the Irish Republic, planted by a loyalist gang aided by an English officer, further British establishment policies? It appears that Nairac was not carrying a UDR issued weapon, incase you were interested.

While we are on the subject it may be interesting to research Nairac a little more especially in the case of the Monaghan and Dublin bombings. Those bombs were spectacularly effective and accounted for the most people killed in one day throughout the entire period of the troubles. This atrocity has always been credited to the UVF. Which is surprising given their track record of effectively removing themselves from the face of the planet as opposed to their intended victims.

McGrath could you clarify,"but that proves nothing", at the end of your post? I'm curious, thanks in advance.

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 04:53 PM

I meant the fact that it was a botched operation does not mean that it couldn't have been organised by "the British establishment". (I mean, look at Iraq...)

Subject: RE: BS: Alleged British state colluded in Murder
From: Den
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 11:29 PM

Many thanks for the clarification McGrath.