BS: Rumsfeld Gone!

Subject: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: GUEST,Peter T.
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 02:07 PM

Break out the flat champagne.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 02:16 PM

Perhaps a bit early to break out the bubbly?

Sometimes it is better to have the devil you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 02:20 PM

THIS THREAD
already running on Rumsfeld.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 02:53 PM

trivia challenge

Now that W has appointed Gates (previously from his Dad's administration) Name One person from W's dad's administration that W has not yet called upon to serve under him.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 03:03 PM

Danny Quayle.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 03:08 PM

Interesting advert they selected to put next to this story here - the Hawaii Cruises illustration

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 03:09 PM

DADDY!

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 03:13 PM

Great answers !


What is rummy doing with a gun?

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 04:15 PM

Why should there be any difference with Rumsfeld out? Same gang of thuggish, hubristic, "new american century" fools are still calling the shots.

The BuShites just jettisoned him in the hopes that the gullible will think something fundamental has changed in the administration's agenda.

And they're probably right- Mencken's "boobocracy" is still alive and well in the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 04:19 PM

We can hope that the new Congress will have a little effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 04:23 PM

Donuel, in some societies it is the respectable thing to do when failure has been so complete. Rummy, write a note, put the gun in your mouth & swallow hard, now pull the trigger.

Greg F, hopefully we'll see a new America emerging from it's own ashes. HOPEFULLY!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 04:42 PM

Let's see -- Dubyah hasn't yet called upon Dan Quayle to serve in his administration. Probably because he can spell better than Dubyah.

;-)

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: GUEST,MarkS
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 04:53 PM

Right. The new congress will have a little effect!

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 05:00 PM

Very intriguing development. The monkey shoots the organgrinder.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 05:26 PM

Har! Har! Perfectly put, McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 05:35 PM

We do live in interesting times.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 05:44 PM

Barry, 4 years ago I did a 3D still life of a table in a wealthy home with W's portrait above the fireplace. On the table are the note, the pills and the spilled wine.

If you hadn't mentioned it I would have forgotten I ever did the picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 05:48 PM

This is very good news on the face of it -- a sop to the rising Speaker of the House. I would have loved to've been a fly on that wall, though.

Because it seems to me there is more to this than meets the eye.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 06:42 PM

Is he to be hanged also?

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 07:32 PM

Sometimes the language leaps out at me and, on a serious note, I heard his speech (comments) during the press conference (announcement). The interesting part is the word(s) he left out of a particular sentence that no reporter--so far--has noted.

After some light banter about he is always being criticized he praised his boss -"W"--and said that history will record this war. Well, history records everything so I can only assume--he is not dumb--he left out the descriptive word. "Ill conceived"--or something close.

You will also note that again "W" has screwed it up. Waited till after the election (and he had this planned since the new fellow is in the wings). Frankly, good he did---had he done it earlier it might have shifted the election results.

Finally, I notice that in the end of this "ill conceived" administration "Daddy's folks" are back to bail things out. I guess the elder knew going into a nation that was artificially formed by the British Mandate made not sense. Sadam, no angel, kept things stable and now we have a society totally falling apart and our poor troops are dying for it.   

We care not a whit for genocide and warfare in other countries and yet we had to do this under a guise of fighting Terror. In reality we were fighting to create "W"s vision of control of the region and oil. The elder is not saint---but, at least, more knowledgeable.

His---GWB's epitaph should read---"..should have listened to Daddy".

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 07:45 PM

His---GWB's epitaph should read---"..should have listened to Daddy".

What has GWB been hanged yet already too? *Smiles*

When he does die perhaps it should read - should have done what Daddy did - and got out quick?

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 07:48 PM

His Daddy should've "pulled out quick" & saved us all from from him ever having a son.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 07:53 PM

Don't let the door hit ya' on the way out, Creepo...

Please don't reinvent yourself and come back into the governemnt in any capacity because you and yer bud, Dickelberry Cheney, are both jerks of the highest order...

Good "friggin" bye...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: 282RA
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 08:55 PM

I said a while ago when Bush was meeting with his generals behind closed doors about possible changes in war policy WITHOUT Rumsfeld being present that it meant he was out. So now we can be certain his ouster was some time in the planning.

Now Bush is taking shots at Rove. He knows everyone who isn't conservative hates Rove so I think he'll jettison him next. He's also ignoring Cheney who opposed the removal Rumsfeld and it is possible even Dickie's job isn't safe from the axe. Bush has to divest himself of all the baggage that ties him to failed policies that have led to this referendum. He may be dumb in most areas but he is a shrewd politician and he knows instinctively how to protect himself. Before, it was by surrounding himself with his advisors and now it is by banishing them and getting his father's advisors--the ones who told him not to invade Iraq if he knew what was good for him. In this way, he shows America his willingness to change policy without having to say, "I was wrong." It is, in fact, that unwillingness that drives his political ticker--the reason he is so shrewd.

Oh, this will be glorious! The next two years will be a wondrous thing to behold.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 09:01 PM

I don't think the Prez can fire the VP. But he can make his position insufferable.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 09:03 PM

I should do a dual portrait

Rumsfeld and McNamara

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: 282RA
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 09:19 PM

If Bush tells Cheney to get out, Cheney will have to get out. What's he going to do? Refuse? It will be a tricky thing for Bush but he has to get rid of Cheney--essential that he get rid of Cheney. Everyone and his brother blames this war on Cheney and Bush is only too grateful for that. If he boots Cheney out, it keeps his ass covered a little more although not enough to keep hearings from being held about his role in foisting off this war on America. But it might take some edge off it. There will have to be hearings because this election is telling the dems that the public expects it. I sure as hell do.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 09:32 PM

No chance. Besides, Dick Cheney is still on the edge of being the most powerful man in America -- a tied senate means that his vote is what counts.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 09:32 PM

Ah fellas, I do believe the letter has been on the boss' desk for awhile. Did it not occur to you that Bush had a new whipping boy ready for the cameras by 2:00 p.m. EST? Yah. That one wasn't exactly decided on this morning.

As to Bush waiting--he had to. The confirmation hearing for a new Secretary of State before the election would have a been a Monday morning quarterback session on the war. They'd have lost even more, had they chosen to go that route before the election. Rove may be on the way out, but not for two more years. And he isn't the least bit stupid about these things.

I agree there is something to this--in the same way there is something to those who thought to rearrange the deck furniture on the Titanic before heading for the life boats.

Repubs & their lobbyists are scurrying around like sewer rats looking for cover today, sure. But it certainly doesn't mean the world as we know it will change with Rumself gone. The damage is done now. We're still as screwed as were on Monday, and I haven't got a whale of a lot of confidence in the new crew sailing towards inauguration day.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: 282RA
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 09:37 PM

>>No chance. Besides, Dick Cheney is still on the edge of being the most powerful man in America -- a tied senate means that his vote is what counts.<<

It's not a tied Senate. The two indies will caucus with the dems rendering Cheney's tie-breaker useless.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: 282RA
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 09:42 PM

>>Rove may be on the way out, but not for two more years.<<

Unlikely. Bush is already taking shots at him in front of reporters. It wouldn't make sense to do that and then hold onto him. Bush has to get rid of him now because holding onto him when the hearings start won't do anything for his position. He has to show he is changing policy and he cannot possibly hold onto these people and still change policy. That's why Rumdum is gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 09:45 PM

Nope, I don't think so. I think Cheney & Rove will be there until the bitter end or the apocalypse--which ever comes first.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 09:50 PM

"Greater love than this hath no man, that he lay down his friends for his life" - said of Prime Minister Harold Macmillan on the occasion of his 1962 Night of the Long Knives, when he sacked half his cabinet...

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: 282RA
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 09:50 PM

By that logic, he should have held onto Rumsfeld too. He is eager to show he is changing policy and that means a new team. He has to get a new team or he's going down because those people are going to be investigated.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 10:14 PM

Thanks, Peter T. I learned about it first here from you. That and Pluto's demotion out of the planetary system. Maybe we can send R. to Pluto?

Anything else I should know about?

Elmer

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 10:19 PM

282RA, have you had a course in logic lately?

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Peter T.
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 09:03 AM

What? Is Pluto gone? Did they find the weapons of mass destruction? Did Dick Cheney ever get back into government after he and his pals decided to take Iraq and bring back the imperial presidency? Did they decide to give up on doing something on climate change? Gosh I wonder.

Underestimate Dick Cheney at your peril (actually at the planet's peril).

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 05:26 PM

You can say that again, Peter T. I didn't underestimate Al Capone, Babyface Nelson, or Mad Dog Coll...and I sure as hell would not underestimate Dick Cheney either. He's more dangerous than them three bozos put together, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Peace
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 06:41 PM

I predict that Cheney's heart will give up before the end of January, 2007.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 08:44 PM

Ding-dong, the witch is dead, which old witch, the wicked witch, ding-dong the wicked witch is dead...!

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 08:48 PM

I just got an email with the old Rumsfeld shaking Saddams hand photo..
with a balloon above his head saying 'is it just me? or has it been a shitty week?' and Saddam saying 'dont get me started'

they had to jettison Rumsfeld - because he was big target - especially since top generals and other Republicans wanted him out as well.

so he may not be a big target anymore, but its too little too late.
he should have been fired after the 'stuff happens' speech 3 years ago.

whats astounding is that Bush actually said last week he was going to keep Rumsfeld till the end and now fully admited to the press that he lied.

looks like Rove was none too popular either with George, but thats too late as well. Turdblossom's arrogant 'we can use our base' and keep America conservative forever didnt last very long either. In fact theres already talk in the Republican party about distancing themselves from the Religious right - as if thats going to make any difference.

GW is going to be the lamest of the lame duck presidents.
sure he has the veto pen, but he wont dare use it now, because if he tries 2008 will be an even more anti-republican vote.

its good to see that the American people no longer fell for the scare tactic either. (the Democrats will pull out of Iraq and the terrorists will win!)
like they knew what would happen: WMDs? Iraq oil will pay for itself?
We will be greeted as liberators? Insurgency is in its death throes.
etc..

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 10:11 PM

Well then, can we send Cheney to Pluto? Pretty Please?

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: 282RA
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 10:21 PM

Cheney will likely be impeached before Bush ever is. Bush will probably feed Cheney to the dogs to protect himself. Bush cannot hold onto Cheney--the man perceived to be the one who made this whole mess happen. Letting the dems impeach him would be the shrewdest thing Bush could do.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:29 PM

Rumsfeld was a thorn in the side of the military for a long time. They bitterly resented both his micromanaging the Iraq war-- (as I recall, they referred to the 7,000 mile thread)--and especially his lack of planning for the post-war period. I've read that he threatened to fire anybody who brought up post-war planning.

This in turn left them with an unwinnable war--which generals tend not to like.

That well-known leftist rag (WSJ) in a column today makes the felicitously phrased comment that Rumsfeld's ideas (about a lean, fast strike force, for instance) were fine "if America only aspires to blow things up overseas".

Couldn't have put it better myself.

It was pretty clear Rumsfeld's days were numbered last Friday when the editors of several military newspapers, including Stars and Stripes, called for his removal.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:40 PM

Re: Cheney

I disagree. If Cheney wants to go, Bush will let him. But he won't fire him. And I don't think he'll be impeached--again it would be a huge undertaking--and to impeach and convict him, you will need quite a bit of Republican co-operation--which will not be there. Remember, the Senate is still just about even--51 to 49. You need more than that to impeach and convict.

And it would distract from the business of the country. Nancy et al. need to make clear their goal is co-operation, not gridlock--and they realize this.

But in-depth investigations can proceed--into just how the propaganda campaign that got us into the Iraq war worked. And Cheney is in that up to his neck--or above.

That will be very instructive--as a warning to the US public--and entertaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 06:23 PM

>>If Cheney wants to go, Bush will let him. But he won't fire him.<<

He won't have to. When the investigations start, Cheney is going to find himself so incriminated that he will be impeached, convicted and booted. Bush will protest it, sing Cheney's praises and all that but, in the end, it's what he really wanted.

Don't underestimate Bush's political savvy. He knows how to protect himself and getting rid of Cheney will likely be enough to sate the public. Otherwise, who knows what might happen?

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 07:03 PM

Not this public Ron.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 08:54 PM

Stars and Stripes did not call for Rumsfeld's resignation.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 10:04 PM

Rumsfeld facing charges; November 11, 2006 - 12:40PM

The US Centre for Constitutional Rights will again seek criminal charges against outgoing US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld in a German court over detainee treatment at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo prisons. The complaint also will name Attorney-General Alberto Gonzalez, former CIA director George Tenet, high-ranking military officers and others.

The centre hopes German prosecutors will take up the case under Germany's universal jurisdiction law, which allows them to pursue certain cases originating anywhere in the world, a spokeswoman said yesterday. Rumsfeld resigned on Wednesday after nearly six years on the job after the opposition Democratic Party regained control of both houses of the US Congress from the Republicans amid voter discontent with the war in Iraq.

The Centre for Constitutional Rights is challenging what it considers US torture and indefinite detention of detainees in several court cases. In 2004, the centre had asked German prosecutors to file a criminal case against Rumsfeld over the US military abuse of detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. German prosecutors dropped that case. Now the centre will try again, this time adding a plaintiff who was detained at the US military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, the spokeswoman said.

The complaint will be forwarded to German federal prosecutors on Tuesday, she said. Private citizens can file criminal complaints in Germany but it is up to prosecutors to decide whether to pursue charges, the centre said.

A Pentagon spokesman declined to comment.

Reuters

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Alice
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 10:53 PM

Bye, bye, Rummie, bye bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 02:21 AM

Peter T--


Do you not believe that any military newspapers called for Rumsfeld's departure? I heard an interview--on NPR--with a person up in the hierarchy of military journalism--who said exactly that. I don't make this stuff up--nor get it either from sources like Rush or blogs on the Left.

I really don't care if you believe me or not. I was surprised myself to hear it--so I noted it.

It's a moot point anyway--but I suspect it can be proven.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 04:37 AM

So Rumsfeld has had his collar felt.

When it all goes pear-shaped (yet again) will that be a Gatesgate?

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 05:25 AM

I didn't say that military newspapers like Army Times didn't call for his resignation, what I said was that Stars and Stripes didn't.   It was widely noted that having Stars and Stripes call for his resignation would be the equivalent of People magazine deciding no longer to mention Angelina Jolie.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 07:04 AM

Rumsfeld to go, Army Times, Air Force Times, Navy Times and Marine Corps Times

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 10:38 AM

Congratulations, Peter, you're absolutely right--it wasn't Stars and Stripes--just Army Times, Air Force Times, Navy Times and Marine Corps Times.

Believe it or not, these are all publications which serve the military--point being that they are likely to reflect the views of a sizable number of people in the military--perhaps in the higher echelons. And when organs like this say, as they were to do in the edition of 6 November, that "Donald Rumsfeld must go", this may just possibly be more significant than when a group like MoveOn says the same thing.

Or perhaps you disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 03:52 PM

Rumsfeld's gone, one more round, Rumsfeld's gone.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: bobad
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 04:05 PM

Looks like Rummy's fun is just beginning:

"WASHINGTON -- Twelve former detainees in the US war on terror will ask German prosecutors next week to indict Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and other top Bush administration officials on charges related to torture and other war crimes, a lawyer for the group said yesterday."

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/11/11/charges_sought_against_rumsfeld/

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 06:02 PM

Bev and Jerry--Perfect!

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Peace
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 06:48 PM

In the spirit of levelling things out, I would humbly draw your attention to this:

Dans ce pay-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres.

I feel that way about Rumsfeld. Unfortunately, I also feel that way about his bosses.

Subject: RE: BS: Rumsfeld Gone!
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 09:10 PM

Ah, but Bruce, you & Voltaire assume that the others are intelligent and practical enough to profit by the example.

With the BuShites, this assumption is wildly off the mark.