BS: How high can a brick building go?

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 08:51 AM

If all the young ladies were bricks in a pile,
I'd be a mason and lay them in style!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: gnu
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 08:48 AM

Apart from the big hole in the middle, I suppose not.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 07:16 AM

"the dock is pulled apart in the horizontal direction"

which is what I suspected - the 'infinite vertical' thing was a lead - just didn't get around to working it right thru in words.

But if the dock is infinite, then there would be no problem.... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: gnu
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 06:41 AM

Cohesionless... like sand. Sand will pile up, and, yes, there will be a particular angle (the angle of internal friction which is dertermined by the "slippage factor" between the particles as Robin has mentioned) to the exterior of the slope.

An example of a cohesive material would be clay, as in, say, a clay brick.

Seems like few people are interested in this, so I'll spill the beans now

In addition to the "slippage factor" ("friction factor") within the sand pile, there is a friction between the sand and the dock. This friction exerts a tensile force on the dock acting from centre of the plie toward the edge of the pile. When this tensile force exceeds the tensile strength of the dock, the dock is pulled apart in the horizontal direction.

Failure analysis is some cool, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 12:22 AM

"cohesionless material"

Ah - Trick Question!

The answer to 'critical angle' above is thus zero - all of it will spill over a practical surface, or spread infinitely out - sorta like one' dem 'SF Horror Movies'...


Another interesting thread of investigation...

"pile ... particles of uniform gradation upon a structure such as pile supported marine dock"

The 'Average weight' over the whole thing is just that - in the middle of the pile (assuming a 'critical angle' of greater than zero!) the greatest actual weight will be where the resultant slumped pile is highest - in the centre.

The 'average strength' of the dock doesn't matter - just where the greatest stress is - 'the weakest link in the chain' thingie...

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 10:24 PM

Where the heck do you find a cohesionless material? Even in zero G each particle would exert a minute gravitic attraction upon each other. Unless your material doesn't have mass, of course. Then it would be pure energy, and I don't think that energy HAS a gravitic attraction. Come to think of it, does gravity attract gravity?

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 08:18 PM

hmmm, didn't take first time...


"The steel re-enforcement Earthquake codes force people to put in buildings may work in standard masonry, but actually weaken Adobe.... "

An Aussie has recently invented a cheap and simple method for tying together mud very low level structures using locally found materials - bamboo and fencing wire - this technique is being used in rebuilding in the recent earthquake and tsunami zones to the north of Australia, and I think perhaps elsewhere in the world.

It is just intended to hold the building together long enough so that people can run outside before the roof falls on them and kills them. It has been tested on 'shake tables' - think it even made it onto the ABC (Oz) TV program 'New Inventors' this year or last.




"a cohesionless homogeneous material consisting of particles of uniform gradation upon a structure such as pile supported marine dock"

In a practical case - i.e. non infinite area, the sand will spill over the edge, so the height is limited by the 'slippage factor' (I'm not a qualified engineer, so I don't know all the 'real terms'), which any engineer should be able to tell you - there is a critical angle for each material.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 08:05 PM

"How much will the Wharfs foundations hold? And the ground they're on?"... as stated... infinite vertical load bearing capacity.

"How regular are it's piles?"... as regular as you want.

If they're several hundered meters apart, then it doesn't matter how strong they, but it does matter how strong the deck is".... ahhh, yes, but I think you may be thinking in the wrong direction.... reference your first question. The foundations and ground can, by definition in the original poser, bear an infinite vertical load.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 06:01 PM

How high can you pile a cohesionless homogeneous material consisting of particles of uniform gradation upon a structure such as pile supported marine dock of infinite area and infinite vertical load bearing capacity?

For instance, say you were stockpiling sand on a wooden wharf. You know that the wharf can easily handle a vertical load of a thousand truckloads of sand but, when the 500th load goes on top of the pile, it's goodbye wharf. How did the wharf fail?



I don't know the answer to this, but there are a couple of lines to go down:

How much will the Wharfs foundations hold? And the ground they're on?

How regular are it's piles? If they're several hundered meters apart, then it doesn't matter how strong they, but it does matter how strong the deck is.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 02:43 PM

Well, I'd say this one had just about been trowelled to death.... I'd say the hod is empty... I'd say the wake is over (Tim Finnegan's)...

Soooooo.... How high can you pile a cohesionless homogeneous material consisting of particles of uniform gradation upon a structure such as pile supported marine dock of infinite area and infinite vertical load bearing capacity?

For instance, say you were stockpiling sand on a wooden wharf. You know that the wharf can easily handle a vertical load of a thousand truckloads of sand but, when the 500th load goes on top of the pile, it's goodbye wharf. How did the wharf fail?

John is disqualified from answering this one as it is one of the most common modes of failure analyzed in structural and soils engineering.

Ah... if this is a stunned question, er, ah, not appropriate, ignore it. I just think it's cool. But then, I AM a beaver, damit!

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 10:58 AM

Hmmm...the buildings at Mesa Verde are braced against cliff walls. Those at Hovanweep and Chaco stand alone. Eleven meters, huh? I'm going to have to research some of the California missions, as I think they are more than 11 meters, but then they might be stone.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 09:06 AM

Using a selection of values pulled from research papers, an Adobe column will give way at the base at about 11m.

This is for well made, average bricks, without straw re-enforcement.

Tapering Walls, and ignoring the building codes would allow you to go alot higher though. The steel re-enforcement Earthquake codes force people to put in buildings may work in standard masonry, but actually weaken Adobe....

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 08:31 AM

So, what about adobe bricks? Some of those buildings in places like Mesa Verde are pretty high for unkilned mud bricks.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 08:11 AM

That does depend somewhat on your definition of a storey, Jonm.

New houses/flats in this city are built with the standard 7'8"(ish) ceilings, where as the Georgian and Victorian ones next door are in the range of 12-15'
They're all assorted masonry, so the same structural problems exist.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 07:02 AM

Paul B, & Mr McGrath,

Though not the size of a Cathedral, its as big as a Minster, & brick-built:

Holy Trinity Church (scroll down page for links to pics)

...its the largest Parish Church in England.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 06:54 AM

Lego towers only go so high before they start to bend... then they smash to the floor in a satisfying manner whereupon there will be at least 4 bricks that go under the piano, 19 under the table, 3 where they can't be found except by bare feet and one that is never seen again. You can always guarantee that this one is the one you require to build Hogwart's Castle and no other brick can replace it.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: jonm
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 06:45 AM

A simple stack of bricks could go to about 340m before the lowest are in danger of compression failure, based on compressive strengths given below, unchecked. As stated below, the mortar is generally stronger than the brick.

This presupposes that the foundation is inflexible - any movement will put all or part of some of the bricks into tension and you will have cracking almost immediately.

It would be very difficult to construct a brick building more than five conventional storeys high without internal structural bracing. Conventional houses have floors which are laid onto joist hangers; once the structure goes above three floors, there is a requirement for internal bracing so some of the floor joists are structural to prevent rotation of the structure or flexing. Small areas in plan, such as chimneys, can go much higher before this becomes a problem.

Openings for windows and doors present opportunities for the structure to flex as well; this is again where bricks and/or mortar joints are placed in tension with reliably catastrophic eventual results.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 06:24 AM

Hey Gervase, you're not lining another chimney with sh!t again are you?? You promised I could help next time!!!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 04:59 AM

Sorry not to have replied earlier but I've been out all weekend at melodeon workshops in Witney (but today is a nice day for kite flying).

Thanks for the info (and the smiles)

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Scotus
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 06:17 PM

"It really depends on how much explosive you use"

I used to lecture in a tech college and our gas engineering lecturers described the strength of an explosion as '1,000 bricks' or '10,000 bricks' etc.

Jack

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 04:42 PM

Especially if you have to use hand signals . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: frogprince
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 04:39 PM

--" trying to order a hot dog took me over an hour."
"YEAH. You were in the lineup for the washroom."

Standing in the men's room lineup, trying to order a weenie, with a translation problem; that's one frightening scenerio!

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 04:25 PM

'The Captain told the Mate' is here

Andrew

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: danensis
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 12:33 PM

Many of the old mills and power stations had brick built chimneys, and I can recall one or two that were 200ft high or more. Pity Fred Dibnah's gone to that breaker's yard in the sky, I'm sure he would have known the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 08:00 PM

Is that here in another thread in complete version or in the DT? if so a link please, if not, can we have it in a new thread?

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 02:01 PM

You lot should know by now that folk music has the answer to everything . . .

I'll tell you a tale about a man,
A builder he was by trade,
He built a chimney nine miles high,
And all of the bricks he made.
Along came another who said to him,
"I can do better than that,
I'll mix all the mortar and make all the bricks,
As sure as me name is Pat!"
He built it up so high,
It reached beyond the sky,
They had to take a brick or two off,
To let the moon go by.

(from The Captain told the Mate)

So that settles that . . .

Andrew

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Bert
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 01:54 PM

Hey Squeaks, them dung bricks not only sticks better, they stinks better too.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 01:26 PM

We really need to get to the definition of a building here. Is a solid pyramid a building or just a shaped pile? As mentioned, the Flatiron building has an iron skeleton. If the building is all brick, how many doors and windows and of what dimensions. In the NYC building code, rooms must have windows to be counted as rooms. There are too many variables being left undefined here.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Gervase
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 01:25 PM

Of course, if you build with a lime mortar rather than OPC you don't need expansion joints.
In truth, most modern mortar is ludicrously over-engineed for what it needs to do. A standard 5:1 mix has a compressive strength of around 70Nm/mm, whereas your average housebrick has a compressive strength of around 11Nm/mm. That means that, under stress, the bricks crack first, which is not a good idea (and which is why modern houses are built on massive concrete foundations and why, when you use OPC mortars and renders for repairing old houses, you end up with cracks and damp problems). Ideally the mortar should be softer than the stuff it's binding.
And don't get me started on the wonders of cow-dung - I've got a job coming up next week which will require plenty of the fresh stuff. The client has been warned about the whiff, but says she doesn't mind!

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 12:58 PM

The blood usually goes in the lime for the final wash - gives the house a lovely reddish brown colour that over the years fades to pink.

I know about dung in bricks because it's still used in some countries. Why waste valuable topsoil on bricks when you can use what the animals give free and gratis.... We have a Victorian house and whilst replastering a wall I noticed that the plaster contained rather a lot of coarse hair - probably horse, to aid cohesion.

AS for the stickiness of dung... I grew up on a dairy farm. There is NOTHING stickier than the dung of a cow that's been fed on fresh grass. Unless it's the smell.. that sticks around for months!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 08:12 AM

Don't use water in your mixture, use bullock's blood.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 06:06 AM

Ancient time?

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 04:59 AM

Well at least it is made of Bullshit so we have the thread in the right place.

Isn't the dung brick technically called cob? Still plenty of old houses in Devon built that way. Ususally no more that two storeys but the Pennymoor Song and Ale (June - Cruwys Arms - Pennymoor) used to be held on the Penny premises in a barn built of cob and that was high enough to hold three storeys but had no floors above ground level.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 03:48 AM

... one wonders, how do you know? :-)

not sure if the engineers here have tables for dung coefficents....
:-)

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 03:43 AM

Some of that mud and straw would have been dung and animal hair... gives better cohesion and what's more, it sticks together better too!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 03:39 AM

"if you try to build it up to the heavens, God's gonna knock it down"

So just how high would the Tower of BaBel have been - I suspect from the ancient time that it was probably built from mud brick, perhaps reinforced with straw... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 10:08 PM

I remember just trying to figger out which was the gents -- doors labeled "Femmes" "Fir" "Mna" "Hombres" "婦女" "люди" "homens" "άτομα" "Frauen" and more! Finally I just stood in the same line as Peace and hoped he knew what he was doing.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 10:04 PM

Fascinating what musos trying to avoid practice will come up with - you lot should see my 9 year old goddaughter during 'guitar practice' time... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 09:52 PM

YEAH. You were in the lineup for the washroom. Sheesh!

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 09:51 PM

Yeah, FP, that's what happened the last time I did something like that. And just getting lunch afterwards was a pain -- trying to order a hot dog took me over an hour.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: frogprince
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 09:41 PM

You can theorize all you want with your godless secular speculation, but I'll guarantee you this; if you try to build it up to the heavens, God's gonna knock it down, and mix up all your languages so you can't try that again!

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 09:36 PM

Moving the CH lighthouse. Diary.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: NH Dave
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 09:31 PM

I suspect that the vertical move was mostly to allow the movers to get beams and dollies under the lighthouse so they could then move it horizontally.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 07:34 PM

The Cape Hatteras lighthouse, that was the one.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 12:25 PM

Sorry, Bruce, but according to the Wikipedia article on the Flatiron Building (click):

Since it was one of the first buildings to use a steel skeleton, the building could be constructed to 285 feet, which would have been very difficult with other construction methods of that time.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: GUEST,Bruce Baillie
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 12:10 PM

I seem to recall seeing a TV programme which stated that the Flatiron Building in New York was the tallest building built purely from brick with no steel frame, and has walls at the bottom nine feet thick.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: GUEST,Mr Red (with a minor fascination for Blue Br
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 10:24 AM

You don't hire buildings - you rent them (with that Semtext mentioned)

However if you higher them - that's another storey

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 09:09 AM

Which reminds me of the sign the NPS had posted on the lighthouse at the Outer Banks before it was moved inland. It read, in part, "The lighthouse will be moved vertically." I asked a Ranger if they were going to use surplus rockets or missiles, but he ignored me.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 09:01 AM

Bunn, are you then advocating the use of brick spaceships? I've heard of, and even seen, brick shithouses and I would assume that some of those might possibly have achieved orbit if the users thereof provided the right fuel. But brick spaceships would open a whole new era in space travel.

Subject: RE: BS: How high can a brick building go?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 08:33 AM

Of course, if you took those same bricks, and buid the same towers on Mars, where Gravity is about 38% of Earths, then a Brick tower could reach about 14 Km tall, assuming you had motar that would cure properly in the cold, expansion jointing, ans proper butresssing.

If you wanted to be silly, you then build this lot on top of the Martian Volcanoes, and you'd have an instant space port, as it would be above virtually all of the Martian atmosphere....