BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: KeithofChester
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 10:59 AM

http://www.frootsmag.com/content/critpoll/critics_poll_2006.pdf

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 10:52 AM

Funny, I thought that would be a clickie. Not sure how to turn it into one, maybe someone could help?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 10:50 AM

Here, by the way, are the raw results of the fRoots Critics Poll; not sure what happened when they added up the votes to see what got most.
http://www.frootsmag.com/content/critpoll/critics_poll_2006.pdf

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 10:11 AM

Naming the judges seems to be the only feasible way of rescuing the reputation of the competition from the effects of last year' rolling low level fiasco. John Leonard, for example, issued a statement saying that only one judge had any financial interest in Seth Lakeman's succeeding in the votes(he avoids mentioned how said person voted, of course). It is a pity that he was forced to make this statement about one person's position, as if Seth Lakeman was somehow the problem. He wasn't, ansd it is very invidious to have him and his associates picked out like that. It would be infinitely better to name the panel, so that we could judge for ourselves on the people concerned. fRoots Critic's Poll seems quite acceptable, a broad range of knowledgable people tthat are identified in the published results.
    In view of the BBC's current preoccupation on where and when it has been deceiving people, obviously the topic of last year's competition is being revisited. I think we are a bit overdue for a statement on when and if the next competition is going to happen, run by who, and with what rules. I still find the whole sorry business last year extremely puzzling, and SmoothOps various statements on the subject in no way clarified things, quite the reverse. It still puzzles me who these people can have been who are meant to have voted in that very inexplicable way.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 08:50 AM

Best of luck mate. I just don't see any great conspiracy or skullduggery.

What you've got here is the rump of those guys who used to play the folk/cabaret places like The Boggery in the 1970's. They weren't much fun to be around at the time, nowadays they're an endangered species. In a way i would be sorry to see them disldged from their pathetic little nature reserve. Its their view of folkmusic.

I daresay its as valid as some of the half witted nonsense you encounter most days on mudcat.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: KeithofChester
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 06:25 AM

I've added a post to your on the BBC Board.

BBC Folk Awards Thread

It would appear that every time Mark Thompson turns over a stone he finds a new worm on this one.

BBC Competition Story

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 04:03 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 02:32 PM

I have posted to the BBC Message Board about this. Any who feels that the BBC Folk Awards are as open and above board as I do, might like to read what I have said - and if they support it post to that effect.

Remember the board there is run by Smooth Operations.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 02:06 PM

I wonder if there is a window of opportunity here?

Certainly if one's voice could be heard in the higher echelons of power then I doubt Smoothie Chops' secretive judging process would survive.

Any suggestions how people might go about this?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 01:22 PM

It was nice re-reading this thread and hearing Scrumps cyber voice again. I never knew him. But he must have been body and soul into this music.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 12:42 PM

Smooth Operations constant excuse for not naming the judges is because it stops record companies and publicity people trying to nobble them.

Here's another way. Name a list of judges.

It is very similar to the Sony Radio Awards - which a Smooth Operations production won last year.

But this will not stop the Folk Awards. You are under the mistaken impression it is a competition. It isn't it is a publicity stunt.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: KeithofChester
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 11:34 AM

It will be interesting to see what revisions there are (if any) to the BBC Radio Two Folk Awards process after all this current "excitement" about competitions run by the BBC.

BBC Suspends Competitions

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Scrump
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 04:04 AM

Of course it isn't a fiddle

No, it's a violin...

... ah... sorry, wrong thread.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 03:55 AM

Of course it isn't a fiddle.

Sorry............................

I may have a source here.........I'll see what I can find out....

Best regards,


Dave

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 03:48 AM

HHHHhmmmmmmm!
OH well Back to the grassy knoll!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 03:37 AM

R4 Today have also just said that Freedom Fields won Best Album. Who indeed knows where the muddle goes?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 03:34 AM

It is not as open and clear as you might think.

Someone at the BBC has put up a set of results on the website where Burlesque won Best Album. This has just given Phil Jupitus on 6 Music a few problems, because having believed the news braodcast saying Seth Lakeman had won both Folk Musican of the year (sic) and Best Album, he could only find one reference in the detailed list when he just read it out. I've capture the current form of the press release below, because I don't think it will stay like that for long, although with Smooth Ops, who knows where the [muddle] goes....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/events/folkawards2007/winners.shtml

Quote


BEST GROUP – BELLOWHEAD

Formed by the duo John Spiers & Jon Boden, the eleven-strong big band made their debut at the 2004 Oxford Folk Festival and were named Best Live Act at the Folk Awards in 2005. Their spectacular multi-genre arrangements of traditional song are truly unique. The line-up includes acclaimed individuals like Benji Kirkpatrick (guitar, banjo, bouzouki, mandolin), Paul Sartin (fiddle, oboe), Pete Flood (percussion), Rachael McShane (cello, fiddle), Giles Lewin (fiddle, bagpipes) and Gideon Juckes (sousaphone, tuba).

BEST ALBUM – BURLESQUE: BELLOWHEAD BEST ORIGINAL SONG – DAISY: KARINE POLWART

The Scottish singer-songwriter took three prizes at the 2005 Folk Awards and followed up with her second solo album Scribbled In Chalk, full of typically moving and thought-provoking songs. Formerly a member of Battlefield Band, Malinky and MacAlias, she has a Masters Degree in Philosophy and abandoned a secure career as a social worker to work full time in music. In the last year her music has been heard on everything from the BBC's updated Radio Ballads to soap opera Hollyoaks and The Hairy Biker's Cookbook!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 07:00 PM

Curmudgeon of Sheffield writes:

Bang!!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 05:33 PM

*starts nailing the coffin shut*

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 05:20 PM

Tim Van - Best Traditional Song

Would this be an appropriate time to declare this thread to be well and truly dead?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 03:22 PM

very naughty!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 03:21 PM

I understand someone - believing that the Mods would all be at the Folk Awards - have posted this on the BBC Message Board.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: AlexB
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 02:05 PM

Makes me wish I was there really.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 01:55 PM

I have reason to believe SethYettie's version has also been taken to tonight's festivities...

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 01:27 PM

Every word of this ditty from Seth "Not-Of-The-Lake" is absolutely true, inspired by copious quantities of Chilean red. I do believe The Little Hobbit may be requested to sing it. Whether he will I know not but I do hope someone snaps Two-Fingers Leonard's face.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Scrump
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 12:15 PM

Here, Seth, you're not taking the p*** out of my traditional song, are you?

Btw, I gave the lyrics to a very well known guitarist and fiddler who will be there tonight. If anyone from this group is going, maybe they could request it :-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,SethYettie
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 11:21 AM

With the folk awards on the horizon, and the sound of plastic corks being eased gently from myriad bottles of cheap Chilean red, here's yet another cheap parody. Tune is "Jolly Old Hawk", and it was written while I was in the shower this morning. i reckon that's longer than Seth spent on his.


Jolly white hare and her ears were pink

Now let us sing
Who's going to win the award but me?

Jolly white hare and her ears were pink
Wrote it one night after lashings of drink

I left the pub and I'd had 20 whiskies
Walked home o'er the moor and the hares they were frisky
When I got in, I wrote it all out
Crawled into my bed and promptly passed out

Jolly white hare and her ears were pink
Wrote it one night after lashings of drink

Woke the next morn, there it was on the table
But I had forgot that I'd written this fable,
A traditional tale of a sweet Cornish hare
That turns into a mad bint and gives you a scare

Jolly white hare and her ears were pink
Wrote it one night after lashings of drink

Wrote it one night after 20 libations
Then told a good story to Smooth Operations:
"It's an old Cornish legend from Looe by the shore
That's why the rhymes and the scansion are poor."

Jolly white hare and her ears were pink
Wrote it one night after lashings of drink

The tune I once learnt from an old Devon man
Who travelled the country in his caravan
I memorised each little phrase and each note
But it still sounds like everything else that I've wrote

Now let us sing

Who's going to win the award but me?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 08:45 AM

Excellent news - Power To The People!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:17 AM

Listen to Feedback this Friday, 1.30 rqadio 4. A little birdie tells me that they may be revisiting this topic.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 09:54 AM

one of many recordings on ourtoob although all the rest seem to be by the great man himself

So EMI, as in the words of the Small Faces, "what you gonna do about it?"

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:17 AM

Let's all record it then - should be a nice little earner :-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:56 AM

When I wrote I emphasised the lack of transparency since I believed that was an issue that would get it noticed.

When I did the recording I tried to emphasise it was about this one song - since I wanted JL to defend it. They took a bit of both I am afraid - but that happens. Remember the recording was edited - which I expected.

As far as taking a copywrite tune - he does say he altered it. But since he registered it as Trad. go though, do likewise and record it as Trad. He can't complain - though his record company might!!.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:41 AM

Having listened to it again, I wonder if it was a mistake to try to address the two issues in the same complaint:

1. The nomination of Seth L's song for best trad track
2. The transparency of the voting

The programme only devoted about 5 minutes to the whole item, and most of it was spent trying to persuade Leonard to disclose the number of votes. What he has ended up doing is simply to promise to disclose the number of votes for the 4 nominations in each category. So we won't know about any of the other items on the short lists, or the names of voters, etc. I doubt we'll be able to learn much from that. It would have been more interesting to know how many votes the 5th nomination in the trad track category got. JL's 'justification' for not publishing all the votes (numbers only, no names) was hardly convincing.

The issue of a non-traditional song being nominated for a trad song award is to me more important than knowing how many votes were cast. Leonard was allowed to get away with an unconvincing justification for White Hare being included, while the presenter focused on the other issue.

I'm not criticising Dave for raising it - he did a good job getting it discussed on air. But maybe out emails to the BBC should focus on the White Hare issue - what do others think?

Another point: Leonard claims Seth L "heard the tune in a pub as a lad". How does he know it wasn't under copyright? Maybe I could claim I wrote it and it was me he heard - but I doubt I'd get away with it :-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:38 AM

Great post from Tom.

Can I suggest that as many of you as possible put it on your records and just call it trad arr. whoever.

My bet is that EMI would scream the rooftops off!!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:24 AM

I fear I may, over on the BBC site, have contributed to some confusion over the registration of The White Hare with PRS.

I checked with them when the debate first began, having asked the question there and had no answer.

I'd understood that I'd been told it was registered as Tune: Trad arr Lakeman, Words: Lakeman.

However, I've just doubled-checked - and it seems that both words AND tune are down as Trad arr Lakeman.

This is actually what I put on the BBC, having only been concerned to answer my own question on whether it as registered as an original Lakeman or not - so at least that was correct, but others have suggested otherwise here so I thought it should be re-stated clearly for the record.

FYI the arrangement was registered in March 06, by EMI, and has not been changed since.

Now I'd understood - as have others here - that John Leonard has suggested that Seth will get less money from PRS for performances of HIS OWN version of the White Hare.

Actually he'll make exactly the same as if he'd written it - as PRs confirmed this morning.

However, John would be correct if he was saying that Seth may get less money overall, in the final anlysis - because any PRS member can record 'Seth's' words and tune, make some minor alterations, and register his or her own arrangement - exactly as anyone may with any traditional piece.

People are already putting the song onto their albums (Gerry McN - is that you, Mate?). Those who don't want to, or can't, register a new arrangement, can call it simply 'Trad.'

There are, of course, also a number of registrations of arrangements of the very different traditional song The White Hare.

I'm not sure how royalties are divided between different arrangers of Trad tunes. I'll ask next time I need to talk with PRS.

By the way, I did mention the circumstances (as explained by Seth) behind his arrangement of White Hare, and they did express surprise that it could have been registered as Trad Arr in those circumstances. It would not normally quality with such a gestation.

I'm not quite sure where that leaves everyone, but I thought I'd better clear up any confusion I might have helped to cause!

Tom Bliss

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,working musician
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 11:12 AM

The sad thing about this mess is that interpreting a traditional song is a quite different musical exercise from writing a new one. Taking old material, finding its emotional heart, constructing an appropriate musical arrangement and telling the story properly, while making it sufficiently gripping to engage an audience in the twenty-first century, is as great a creative challenge (in some ways more so) than producing a piece of new material. As has been pointed out before, the BBC has the one Folk Award devoted to the recognition of this talent, so why debase it? The irony is that many of the young musicians the MH show likes to feature - Eliza, Spiers and Boden, Tim van E. and Devil's Interval - are doing precisely that, often in innovative and exciting ways.

It would be interesting to see the voting figures, but even if we do (and believe them) I would still bet you anything you like that not all those who voted for SL's "White hare" had actually heard it. "Ah, Seth Lakeman, he's hot shit right now.... The White Hare, oh yes, I vaguely remember that's a traditional song.... tick the box."

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 08:08 AM

I think I can answer that by saying he (Roger Bolton) is just a presenter....everything will have been set up beforehand.

And the way to get back at them scrump is to write to them as I did. See my previous post which tells you where to go to and who to talk to.

They aren't perfect - but then neither am I!

Best regards,

Dave

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 08:05 AM

If you go to Listen again you can hear the Feedback prog. as many times as you like.

True Les, but for how much longer? I was only suggesting a transcript would help in future, when people won't be able to "listen again".

Yes, JL's "definition" of 'traditional' seems to disqualify the song in question - so why on earth didn't the interviewer say so? Is he a mate of JL;s or what?

I haven't listened to "Feedback" before but if this sort of feeble response is what you usually get on the programme, I don't think I'll bother again.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 08:03 AM

Thank you.

I am not intending to go back to Feedback since - FOR ME - I feel it would be a waste of time. It would look like I am trying for a second go and criticising the firm that made the programme. They weren't perfect but neither am I and I am not naive enough to think my words would not be cut. (Though I tried to be succinct). At least they did not move them around.

If folk performers or those others who have read this thread, are prepared to contact "Feedback" either via the BBC website or via the production company "Testbed Productions" [e-mail] then I would be happy to re-appear on the programme - or listen to someone else do it. Not bothered either way. The contact is Penny Vine. They have gone back to programmes before so if there are enough of you prepared to be "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" or in Les's case "of Chorlton" or Ruth Archer's case "of Ambridge" then they may take notice.

It might be worth making the point that people are actually afraid to appear on the programme because of S.O.'s monopoly.

And to "Guest" I can promise you that no-one has broken any confidences, or even dropped any hints, simply that I managed to add 2+2.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 07:09 AM

If you go to Listen again you can hear the Feedback prog. as many times as you like. I listened a couple of times and this is the bit I thought most valuable:

John Leonard, when asked to define "traditional" gives us

a. No known composer and
b. passed through many hands.

Discussion over

TWHINATS

And it is a lovely sunny day here in Chorlton cum Hardy, so to speak

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 07:05 AM

Indeed, Roger Bolton did not pick JL up.

The entry criteria for Best Traditional Track, as published by the Smoothies themselves, is the best performance of any traditional song or tune on CD released during the past 12 months. This is a category designed to recognise the work of people recording traditional material. It is to be a new recording of a traditional song, from any tradition.

And the money you get from a self-written song is exactly the same as what you get for Trad/Arr.

As for a 'reputation for being vindictive', never. I should think my invitation to the Brewery this year is just delayed in the post. And the Smoothies would never exclude anyone from their forum for telling it like it is, would they?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 06:41 AM

I just wondered: is it possible for a transcript of the BBC Feedback article featuring Dave Eyre and John Leonard to be published here, so that we can see what was said once the programme has been removed from "Listen Again" (which I guess will be pretty soon now)?

I for one wasn't convinced by JL's 'explanation' of the voting system and the reason for including White Hare as 'traditional'. As I said above, regarding the latter, the definition JL gave of 'traditional' seemed to imply that the song shouldn't have been included - from memory, he said that a traditional song was one where we don't know who the author is. But we do, in this case, don't we?

And as someone said earlier, he said that Seth could have got more royalties by claiming he wrote it, which of course isn't true.

I was disappointed that the interviewer didn't pick JL up on eother of these points. What's he there for if he doesn't do that?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 06:22 AM

Thank you Countess.

Even closed lists leak, so people tend to be guarded.

Those who want to post here are probably already doing so, but I'd surmise that, of those few who have made a contribution in this other place, most would appear to agree with the majority view here.

That said, there are plenty who say nothing, and for all I know they may hold quite the opposite view.

For myself I think things have come to a pretty pass when professionals, who put themselves on the line night after night for this music, do not feel able to contribute openly to what should be a healthy debate about a very pleasant, worthwhile and noteworthy event.

But then I'm one of them, and the truth is that a tiny handful of people have managed to effect a stranglehold on the single dedicated media outlet for this industry, and in so doing have acquired massive power, without - it seems - much of the responsibility that is supposed to go along with the spending of public money, or the separation of personal gain from public promotion.

And some of those people, it has to be said, do have a reputation for vindictiveness (which may be unfounded for all I know, but who wants to take the chance)?

Dave - are you planning to go back to Feeback, to make a rebuttal?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 06:11 AM

Some fairly senior performers are picking up on this issue and would like to read what both sides have been saying.

JL made a belated statement on the BBC Board - more or less saying what he said on the programme.

Smooth Ops operate the BBC board for them - so they really have has a number of questions to answer all of which they have ignored.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 06:01 AM

Thanks for that Countess Richard - you beat me too it.

For anyone else with the problem I found it by clicking on the first name in the thread - then looking through all his posts till I found something that remotely looked like it!!

There is probably an easier way..........

And "Guest" I respect your need for privacy. It is interesting what you say about senior performers. I understand that discussions have been going on an a "closed" list. Do not worry no-one has broken any confidences but it would be nice of thus could be summarised if at all possible - without mentioning any names.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 05:55 AM

thread.cfm?threadid=96615

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 05:07 AM

There was long thread with some quite detailed points made about Smooth Operations logic, and the BBC producers guidelines. There were also links to the BBC Governors site and comments thereon.

Les started this thread to sum up the arguments in that earlier thread - but even though I've set my computer to read 90 days I can only go back to Jan the 5th.

Some fairly senior performers are picking up on this issue and would like to read what both sides have been saying.

We're aware of the BBC forum.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:30 AM

To Guest:

As far as I am aware there are no previous threads. There was a short thread that drew attention to the radio programme.

There is a thread on the BBC 2 message board This link should take you there: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F2142825

If you have any thoughts you want to share feel free to contact me (I am the person complaining on the broadcast).

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:26 AM

I finally managed to listen to this today, before it disappears up the BBC's backside.

Well done Dave for getting it 'Eyred' (sorry!)

By his own definition given on air in the programme, John Leonard seems to have ruled out Seth Lakeman's White Hare as a runner for the Trad track award. The presenter should have picked him up on that, IMO.

So disappointing in a sense but having raised the issue, I hope it will make them think a bit harder next year - probably too late this time.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 07:22 PM

I can't seem to find the previous threads on this topic - my screen is only showimg me as far back as early Jan.

Could some kind person please post a link/s?

There were some important points I'd like to read again before taking next steps.

Thankyou