BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 08:34 AM

Being discussed on Feedback now.
Traditional prize to a self written song.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 05:11 PM

Modesty ought to forbid me from drawing attention to this thread ......

thread.cfm?threadid=98104&messages=4

but it doesn't.........

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 05:04 PM

I hear there might be some BBC radio coverage/response to the controversy over the albino bunny this week...can anyone confirm?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Scrump
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 10:56 AM

Yes, I think the controversy must have seriously spoilt Seth's chances of winning the 'trad track' award, so he must now be front runner for the FSOTY award ;-)

Although of course it will all depend on the unbiased opinions of the individual voters, no doubt :-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 10:37 AM

Scrump: I see your point, that he's nominated in several categories and the one track is standing for all. It makes sense. Having said that, I'm still prepared to bet that he will not win in the trad category, and that all claims about the the White Hare being traditional will be quietly forgotten by John Leonard, and by SL's business associates. And I would still love to see the voting figures.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 02:51 PM

Tim van Eyken's Barleycorn. Narrowly pipping The Grey Cock by Eliza and Salsa Celtica.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 11:17 AM

5th Feb,eh!
So as an ignorant troll I am wondering what else is in the category and,ignoring the white Hare track,what do you knowlegables fancy to take the Trad prize?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 09:13 AM

Well, greg, Seth is on the compilation, along with all the other nominees, but with The Colliers, not White Hare. So obviously he will get the benefits you describe from being on the compilation.

It's just the choice of track that's been questioned. Seth was also nominated for "Folk Singer Of The Year", so the track could be anything by him (if he had only been nominated for the Best Trad Track, White Hare would have to be chosen, I assume).

Many people who buy compilation pop CDs don't bother to buy the singles. Maybe the same logic is applied by record companies to folk compilations, so they wouldn't want to jeopardise sales of the White Hare single by including it on the Folk Awards album.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 07:01 AM

Scrump, the White Hare is already on an album and a single. How does that affect things? Believe me those compilation albums are very good for artists. If he's not on it, there's a reason of some kind, and I'd be very surprised if is was anything to do with his people trying to protect single sales. Which, surely, are well in the past? I thought the single has already had its rise and fall in the ordinary way of things, wouldn't that be the case?
I don't understand the music business. Do you think perhaps the single sales will rocket when the awards are announced, but that that wouldn't happen if it was available on a compilation> I can't really see that.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 05:40 AM

White Hare has been issued as a single, which is the main reason for not including it on the Folk Awards compilation. Sales of the single would be affected otherwise. That's the reason, it's nothing to do with the controversy about the song.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 06:00 PM

Well who knows? Unless you're a Smoothops insider (which I'm certainly not).
The annual beanfest/squandering of licence-fee payers' cash doesn't happen till 5 February. It'll be funny (not) if they announce The Colliers instead.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 05:32 PM

So has he won it yet?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 05:32 PM

I agree with Ruth Archer, a I think GUEST Dan has got it wrong. Firstly, artists are generally very happy to get onto these compilations, they are very good publicity. And secondly, as she points out, there is another Seth Lakeman on the CD anyway, presumably representing his nomination in another category. I would be prpared to hazard a pint on the fact that the White Hare will not win the best traditional track award. I think this story is being quietly buried.
   By the way, Ruth, I'm sorry it's getting a bit edgy again now the kids are back at school. I recommend your best underwear and a bottle of vino.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 03:40 PM

that would work - if they hadn't substituted a different SL track instead of The White Hare...

Which they have.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 03:32 PM

The terms offered for tracks included on the Folk Awards CD are generally not very good. I suspect that Relentless (the imprint of EMI that Seth is signed too) has not allowed his track to be included.

Thats all.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 02:54 PM

Interesting development in this laughable saga. Apparently, according to the BBC Radio 2 message board, a compilation CD is about to be issued with all the award-nominated tracks on. And lo and behold, that famous traditional song Seth Lakeman's White Hare is not on the CD. Strange. The BBC(or should that be Smooth Ops) has declared that the nomination was valid, and that the song is traditional, so what can have gone wrong? Watch this space.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 05:31 AM

not quite as 'seasonaly drunk' as i was as last time i came here..

Well, you could certainly have fooled me............

Dave

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 10:09 PM

not quite as 'seasonaly drunk' as i was as last time i came here..

but listening to the pre rerecorded version on young boy seths LP again..

still sounds good enough to me..


so only reasonable tactic is to completely ignore BBC piss poor folk coverage


and get your balls and money together and put them where your mouth is

and resource a proper nationwide digital radio folk channel..


.. course you'd all be fuckin moanin and whinging and arguing with each other
and it would most probably collapse in bankrupt misery in less than 6 months..

but f@ck it why not!!!???



if only 20 of you rich folk w@nkers who can afford to buy martin and taylor guitars
just to learn basic C & G chords on
to prat about in pubs trying to
impress stoned old hippy girls
coughed up that kind of investment..

you would be at least most of the way to a real sustainable alternative
modern media channel
to showcase real folk as we truly beleive we should hear and record for posterity..


.. ps.. i love folk music.. but get right fed up with old folk self pity..

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 12:01 PM

Somebody seems to have had a shit Christmas. Didn't Santa bring you the toys you wanted then?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,punkfolrocker
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 03:04 AM

frankly.. me and the mrs dont give a folkin monkeys..!!!??

young boy seth do gurt good led zep 3 update music..


so if bbc Rad 2 folks are so thick they cant tell their trad

from their

trad arr'soles


f@ck 'em all for the corporate wa@nk @rseoles they all effin @re.!!!!!


we dont need 'em

who cares !!!???



rip it up and start again.. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 06:37 PM

Lennon and McCartney were local musicians too - to Liverpool. I guess they they restricted themseleves to writing trad tunes to which they added their own words.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 01:21 PM

He adapted a tune he had heard from a local musician

Like I said earlier, no evidence whatsoever that this tune was (by any definition of the word) traditional. It may or may not have been.

"Old" does not equal "traditional".

Dave

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 08:45 AM

In this case, greg. It (under Smooth Ops) has provided its own definition of tradtional for the purposes of the awards and since suggested different meanings and its (JL) "understanding" to try to make the White Hare fit the term "traditional", changing what they had said for nomination as well as defying anything I can imagine being considered (from SL management) "the true definition of a 'traditional' song"

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 07:38 AM

Funny organisation, the BBC. It uses the term traditional cooking, traditional Christmas carols, traditional architecture, traditional stories and traditional family customs(i have heard all of these phrases used today). And in every case they were used in exactly the way anyway would use them. Except of course John leonard, who unaccountably uses traditional to mean "recently made".
Pray God he doesnt get put in charge of those programmes where they decided about which gems of our architectural heritage are to be saved. They'd be be concentrating resources on the giant Sainsbury's storage depot shed down the road. It's certainly traditional, it's got walls,roof and doors.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 07:24 AM

Its not just traditional folk music....its Marks and Spencer traditional folk music....!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 05:20 AM

John Leonard's stance since then has been that the song classes as traditional even though it even fails to qualify under Smooth Ops entry conditions:

6. TRADITIONAL TRACK OF THE YEAR
The best performance of any traditional song or tune on CD released during the past 12 months. This is a category designed to recognise the work of people recording traditional material. It is to be a new recording of a traditional song, from any tradition.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 05:16 AM

any chance he could speak up for him self here.??

Why should he?

There was a letter from his management to Smooth Ops which was posted to the BBC F&A site:

"4/12/06

Seth Lakeman is extremely proud to have recently received nominations in various categories for the 2007 BBC Folk Awards and is grateful for the support he has been given over what has turned out to be a remarkable 18 months.

However, in response to recent queries about the source of the song, The White Hare, nominated in the Best Traditional Song category, Seth would like to explain where it comes from.

He adapted a tune he had heard from a local musician as a child and combined this with lyrics, which were based on a legend he grew up with and one which was also later recounted to him in a Cornish pub - the story of The White Hare.

As Seth adapted the tune and lyrics from a combination of what he believed were largely 'traditional' sources he thought it right to credit The White Hare, on his latest album, 'Freedom Fields', as 'trad/arr..', rather than suggest that it was completely 'original'.

If the BBC, voting panel and other experts involved believe that The White Hare does not fit the true definition of a 'traditional' song, then Seth agrees that it would be entirely appropriate for it to be withdrawn from the category in which it has been nominated."

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 12:22 AM

so.. seth seems a nice enough bloke..

any chance he could speak up for him self here.??

i'd buy his previous CD that sounds a bit like led zep 3..

[when i find it cheap enough ]

but i just bought the 'contraversial' current CD with white bunny for the mrs xmas present
cuz it souns like its mixed more comercial chart sounding for girlies


[but me being crafty.. i got the limited edition first 'folkie' pressing with 2nd video cd..
still available on ebay at sensible prices..!!!!

ja.. punkfolkrocker pissed onj cider and so happy with modern folk CDs..

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 07:27 PM

Its not just folk music....its Marks and Spencer folk music....!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 07:40 PM

Ah now I've realised what a previous post was about. My "Beggar Boy" CD is advertised on the Mike Harding/Radio 2 website. I didn't know that.
Great!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: McMullen
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 06:42 AM

i dont like seth lakeman hes just well look at his music vidieo ANOYING!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 05:01 AM

Well, may I be the first to offer my congratulations to Seth Lakeman for winning the "Best Traditional Track" award with "The White Hare". Well done, Seth! :-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 04:54 AM

You are labouring under a misapprehension there Greg, it's only traditional if John Leonard says so.

eric

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 01:12 PM

GUEST I think we should be told: I dont know quite what point you are making, but the entries   for the second round were decided a month or two ago, and the outright winners I believe were settled last week. I certainly have two records out this year that would have eligible to be included in several categories(along with at least a thousand others folk CDs that came out this year), but alas my humble offerings didn't trouble the voters' pencils. (Possibly their content, 100% traditional, were a bit inappropriate? Or perhaps they are rubbish?)
But they do make excellent Christmas presents, so get down to HMV. They are "The Beggar Boy of the North", Greg Stephens and Crookfinger Jack, Harbourtown HARCD051, and "A Trip to the Lakes", the Boat Band, Harbourtown Records HARCD047. Buy now while stocks last, only three shopping days to go.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,I think we should be told
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:12 AM

What a strange format this board has, my message should have linked to the review of Greg Stevens and Crookfinger Jacks Begger Boy of the North. It's easy to enough to find, but strange that one of the people protesting so strongly here has an eligible album for the next round.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,I think we should be told
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:05 AM

I wonder how smooth ops choose the cds it features in the review section of their s(h)ite at the BBC? Today they are plugging the reissue of <>. Are the cds on the list given out to the panel the same as those they review? If so, those featured are at an advantage over the many other which they can't be bothered to review, perhaps they should be withdrawn from next years Award list?

I think we should be told.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 09:52 AM

Mike Harding played it last night, this is the start of the winning campaign.

I am reasonably sure you are wrong there. The results were decided in mid-December, John Leonard has said this, each winner gets an idividualised trophy and these have to be made.

I think you might be right in saying Seth has won. I think that is the heart of the problem.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: s&r
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 07:32 AM

Transparent competition, public voting, live performance....

from X factor to Folk Factor?

Now there's a thought

Stu

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 07:28 AM

Seconded Les - IMO Seth Lakeman is a talented lad and a superb entertainer with a great future. It's not his fault that the song in question was nominated for the wrong award. I have enjoyed seeing him and his band live on a few occasions and would certainly pay to see them again, any time.

So in asking for the song to be withdrawn from the nominations, I am not trying to belittle Seth or cast doubt on his ability - just on those responsible for this unsatisfactory situation, who seem unwilling or unable to appreciate the stupidity of their actions, or to rectify the problem they have caused.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 07:24 AM

I think Seth Lakeman has a lot to answer for, he must be well aware of the controversy, and there is no such thing as bad publicity, someone from PRS has already explained, the royalties are the same, authorship or ' trad arranged Lakeman '

Mike Harding played it last night, this is the start of the winning campaign.


eric

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 06:11 AM

I would like to re-state that I think most of us think Seth has a lot to contribute and we like his music, it is not about him or his music.

TWHINATS

Les

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:45 PM

I wonder is Seths' hair turning white with the stress resulting from the selection of his track?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:12 PM

I noticed that the well-known traditional song "The White Hare" was played on the Mike Harding show tonight. The Seth Lakeman, version by the way, they dont seem to have played any other recordings of it yet. Perhaps we should request some of them?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 08:52 AM

Jenny Crawford. You are trying to turn this legitimate debate about the BBC into a slanging match by accusing people of "professional jealousy" and "poisonous" behaviour. Which people are you in fact accusing of this? And is "Jenny Crawford" actually your name? There are a lot of pseudonyms floating about. Not all musicians, incidentally, are posting anonymously in this discussion. I have noticed Ton Bliss, George Papavgeris and myself are using our actual names, and I expect there are others.
Another intriguing sideline: I believe it is still the case that John Leonard is still the only actual named individual who has stood up to claim that the White Hare is actually a traditional song. Even Seth Lakeman has back-tracked, or so I understand. It would be extremely interesting to know who voted for it, and what their relation to folk music was.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST, musician
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 07:36 AM

Musicians don't use their names here becuase Smooth Operations have power over our careers. Cowardly, yes, but some of us have kids to feed and bands to pay. It's not fair on them if we use our real names and get blacklisted.

It doesn't matter who is typing. There is no flawed logic. The awards system is full of bias. Fact. Given what you feel about awards in general, Jenny, is that a good thing?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 07:21 AM

Not at all.

I think most applaud them for being successful. They are being castigated for refusing to answer some very pertinent questions - when they are required by their contract to answer questions.

That's a totally different thing.

We just want the awards to be be transparent and fair.

At the moment there is injustice even between the nominated acts (caused by the White Hare issue), and that's a symptom of either the weaknesses they built into the system or something more sinister.

We don't know which because they won't answer questions, but in either event the White Hare is proof that the awards don't work and need change.

They have brought this upon themselves.

If they changed tack and showed some willingness to respond I think most of us would be happy.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,Jenny Crawford
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 07:08 AM

There is some seriously flawed logic here driven, I suspect, by professional jealousy and a pretty poisonous campaign to discredit Smooth Ops. I am no defender of the Folk Awards or Smooth Ops --- I actually loathe the whole concept of Awards ceremonies and also hate the idea of a hierarchy in the folk scene with the hallowed krusby and co at its helm (yuk). The schmaltz and "class system" generated by the awards goes against everything I love about the folk scene.
But there's a real visciousness creeping into this thread and unless people are prepared to put their names to the posts, they mean abosultely nothing and its turning into a poison pen feast.
I also remember John Leonard from his days as a singer round the folk clubs in Nottingham and he always seemd a decent sort to me. It's gone beyond the White Hare (is it or isn't it?) debate and it now appears that him and his honchos are being castigated for being succesful and raising the profile of the music. - Jenny Crawford

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 06:44 AM

Hear hear. Very well said.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST, Ex BBC Producer
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 06:34 AM

"there's no harm in trying."

Actually I think we have a DUTY to try.

John Leonard is to be congratulated for getting the awards commissioned in '99 (I know how damn hard that was to do, and what a major achievement).

For the first couple of years I was happy to applaud as loudly as everyone else.

But the world has moved on. Folk music is in already in a different place (partly thanks to the awards, in fairness), and it is going further down the road - and even picking up speed.

We are experiencing a surge in interest, which is excellent news, but if we're not to be criticised by future generations, we need to make sure we handle this surge responsibly.

Yes, we do need to take every opportunity to 'sell' traditional and traditionally-derived music to a wider market - partly for financial reasons and partly for cultural ones (specially English and Welsh) - but we need to do this in ways that we won't risk destroy the things which made the music what it is in the first place.

And in particular we need to repect the people who made and handed down the songs we now call tradtional - so that new-comers will begin to understand how the whole thing works.

Now. When the awards were set up the team faced a number of challenges. Their solutions to those challenges were compromises, and perhaps reasonable compromises at the time - but they were, and are, NOT reasonable compromises for the longer term.

But in spite of helpful and good suggestions from many sources over many years, there has been no change. At all.

Smooth Operations have rested on their laurels.

But those laurels are not really theirs to rest on. They belong to all of us who work with, play and love folk music.

Now if I could see ANY glimmer of hope that Leonard was at least listening I would be content.

But I don't. I see him thinking, we'll just sit tight. They'll soon get bored.

Every time someone comes on here of the BBC forum and says it we can't change anything and it doesn't matter anyway, he goes - 'yep'

And the chances of improvement dip again.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:29 AM

I have been involved with the BBC on and off since the 60's..by first association was when I was involved with Charles Parker of Radio Ballads fame, so I have encountered the very highest standards of the organisation. I have had several things on "Pick of the Week", which I regard(smugly) as something akin to an award.
   So naturally, I am shocked and horrified by what I know has been going on in connection with these awards, and also disturbed at allegations of other thinngs that may or may not have been going on. I belive in the BBC, seriously. I believe in folk music, seriously. So I think it is entirely right for people to demand improvements in the way the BBC organises(or rather outsources) its awards; and demand these imporovements now. Whether this will get people anywhere is, of course, another question. But there's no0 harm in trying.