BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST, Ex BBC producer
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:19 AM

Of course we can't 'fire' the BBC or Smooth Operations in so many words, George.

But the ownership situation is a fact, which is widely trumpeted by the BBC.

That means we have leverage which we wouldn't have if the awards were organised by a commercial station - and the BBC does encourage us to use that leverage.

I take it from your post that you are not perhaps 100% comfortable with the situation - just think it's a lost cause?

Well, I don't think it's a lost cause at all. I think the awards are poorly concieved and wrecklessly executed - and I have done so since I first encountered them.

If I was making a programme of that profile, with that budget, I would expect to be attacked if I carried on as casually Smooth Operations have done.

I think we should insist on an improvement - not because of any dreams of winning a trophy, or reaching a mass market, purely because I think the awards should be a credit to folk music, and at the moment they are not.

There is only one thing that is stopping our only national showcase from being a credit to everyone: JL's attitude. I think we should be doing everything in our power to persuade him to change it.

If you were up for best song, wouldn't you want to be sure you'd won on your own merits?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 04:14 AM

"Employ" SO? Fire them if you can.
"Own" the Beeb? Cancel their next fine/court case for non-payment of licence - if you can.
Too many degrees of separation in those relationships to have any meaning at all.

But why bust a gut to persuade the Beeb and SO to do "the right thing"? Why does it matter? Neither is an authority on what is "traditional", after all. Yes, the media have the power to influence the masses into believing Seth's song is "trad", just as they have the power to influence them into believing that the next "celebrity" they manufacture is worth watching in some so-called reality show.

But we were never in folk music for the sake of what the masses believe, were we?
So why bust a gut?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST, whistleblower
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 03:27 AM

and who says our 'rage' is 'impotent'? we employ smooth operations. we own the bbc. in the longer term we call the shots. it is only a matter of time

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 07:52 PM

For those of us that are required to fill out PRS forms, let us just put White Hare, trad. Seth Lakeman won't get a penny, after all, the forms that I have had to fill in will not make the distiction between his White Hare and the one that is trad.

For those who miss out on the best trad track in the BBC FA, why should we worry about their lost revenue either?

Distinctions? Who needs them?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:41 PM

oggieoggieoggie oy oy oy (in the words of the bard)

and that's exactly what those tolpuddle lads said isn't it?

just accept it when they shit on you because that's all you deserve.

yes?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: oggie
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 05:39 PM

And how many angels can balance on the head of a pin? Yawn.

If you don't like it don't listen, go out and make some music, learn a new song!

Impotent rage is just that, impotent!

oggie

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Scrump
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 05:06 AM

Thanks for the detailed update GUEST.

As for the comments earlier, I agree it's a matter of principle that Seth Lakeman's song should not be considered for the Best traditional track award. It's nothing to do with the merits of the artist or the song, it's just that there's no way a non-traditional song should be nominated for the award.

Withdrawing the nomination is the only correct resolution to this issue. If the BBC/Smooth Ops don't do this, it destroys any credibility the whole of the awards have, so it's in their interests to resolve it properly, i.e. withdraw the nomination for White Hare from this award.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 04:32 AM

k has plainly also not been reading the thread.

S/he says" "People still keep demanding answers to the questions that have already been answered."

Smooth Operations have given some answers:

They have explained (finally) that 'collation' does mean 'counting' and that White Hare did get enough votes in the trad category to be nominated. They have apologised for the picture of Leonard on their site and removed it. They have stated that the winners are not fixed to make the manufacture of the trophies easier. They have restated various procedures that we already knew from their website. They have claimed that they don't publish the names of the panel because it would put smaller, poorer, CD producers at a disadvantage.

But they have not done the following in response to questions I've seen here and on the BBC site.

They have not:

1) Given a geographic breakdown of the panel, justified the inclusion of vested interests, or given a breakdown of the percentage of vested interests to independant voters.

2) Shown any understanding of what the word Traditional means in terms of folk music, or why it's important that this definition is respected. They have not offered a sensible solution to the White Hare problem.

3) They have not answered questions about their guide list of CDs, nor responded to suggestions on how such a list could be made more open, resonable and fair.

They have not explained why they release a list of CDs rather than CDs AND gigs, when six of the awards are as much about live performance as recording; (Folk Singer of the Year, Best Duo, Best Group, Horizon Award, Musician of the Year and Best Live Act).

They have not explained why they told the panel that the list was only of (?all) CDs that contained tracks played on the MH show, when actually it is put together with 'advice' from various sources, including record companies (the big ones, we assume). Having had conflicting statements on this we really have no idea what the criteria are or what their thinking is.

They have not explained why CDs from smaller record companies do not appear on the list of CD releases, even though Leonard has claimed he want to include them in the process (for fairness) and even though they contain tracks that have been played on other BBC stations, and/or are by major touring artists.

4) They have not told us who polices the vote counting - if anyone.

5) They have not told us why the names of the panal cannot be made public, even though their stated justification has been discredited, and good reasons put forward for an open pubic system (such as large record companies actually having a major advante under the current system).

6) They have not given reasons why public voting cannot be introduced, or at least a much bigger, nation-wide panel recruited (a password-protected website-based system would be simple and fair).

7) They have not explained why the full list of nominations cannot be published. (If I had faith in the system I might be with k on this - but given the debacle I feel they owe us an explanation themselves).

8) They have not responded to suggestions that a new category cannot be introduced which could safely include songs like "Man of Constant Sorrow" and 'White Hare"

9) They have not responded to suggestions about other omissions/anomalies such as a cappella, best original tune, best trio etc.

10) They have shown no willingness whatsoever to accept their duty as a company whose salaries come from licence-fee payers to be open, responsive, honest, culturally aware etc.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:35 PM

A new player has entered the game at the BBC someone called K.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F2142825?thread=3737319

We are now accused of being trolls on our own threads.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 02:56 PM

You could e mail Tony Blair I have.
http://www.number-10.gov.uk/

Maybe if you are sure of the facts and enough of you mail in about it you will get an answer from the Beeb or the Company involved.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,working musician
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 02:54 PM

It's called "ignorance", GUEST,ChorleyBob.

And "disregarding the actual arguments for the sake of your own petty prejudices".

And "offensive".

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,ChorleyBob
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 02:39 PM

"You people just don't get it, do you? You don't believe that people might take a stance on principle, as opposed to embitterment or self-interest"

It's called realism , GUESTworking musician.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,working musician
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 01:20 PM

"The greater truth is a handful of embittered performers who're outside the tent pissing in, when they'd sooner be inside the tent, are stirring up as much trouble as they can to try and discredit the awards."

You people just don't get it, do you? You don't believe that people might take a stance on principle, as opposed to embitterment or self-interest. You can't understand that musicians might be passionate about the music they play, and object to what should be a showcase for it - a really good performance and/or arrangement of a traditional song - allocated instead to a modern composition.

I only mentioned the musicians who have contributed to the thread because Troll the Twangler was trying to dismiss opinions contrary to his own as the work of "middle income middle englanders" and "lawyers". As Ruth Archer pointed out, many of the contributors here are not musicians, just music-lovers.

Twim, I'm still trying to make sense of your latest messages, but the final sentence of your 11.23 post is clear enough, and I hope it's a promise you'll keep.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 12:30 PM

Bruce, if Leonard is doing his best within a difficult BBC brief why doesn't he say so and explain why things are done the way they are?

The BBC are VERY strict about producers staying within their house rules. I've got family who've worked for the beeb, and they tell me the awards are completely at odds with BBC rules (as has been pointed out in detail before).

The BBC are not clamping down only because the people who wield the power don't realise (yet) how far out of kilter with the Producers Guidelines the awards actually are.

Some minor changes to the system could effect a huge improvement all round - and a lot of good ideas have been posted here and elsewhere which would cost almost nothing but remove all of the problems. But Leonard won't make changes because HE thinks everything's hunky dory, and he simply doesn't care what we think.

Smooth Operations silence tells us all we need to know.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 12:22 PM

Nobody doubts his musical talents or history.

How many times is it worth saying this:

"I think almost everybody on this thread agrees that the song in question is not traditional and this includee Seth, who wrote it. Argument resolved?"

This is a Smooth Opps problem not a BBC problem

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST, JC
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 12:19 PM

Posts to this thread seem to be about 90% who think the awards are unfair, misguided or rigged and want to see them changed, and 10% who think they are unfair, misguided or rigged but don't care.

I don't think I've seen a single post on any message board by anyone who thinks the awards are good.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 12:18 PM

...I should imagine John Leonard cares at least a reasonable amount about folk music since he was a professional singer back in the 70's, I remember meeting him on numerous occasions and he always struck me as a decent chap, used to play with John Squire and before that Mick Miller and was booked regularly at clubs and festivals, give over hounding the poor bugger he's probably doing his best within the restraints set by those wankers at the BBC!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 12:06 PM

Pearls of wisdom from Tim the Twangler:
"well mate disagreeing isnt abusing. but calling names is."

"...middle class wazzocks start howling and whining..."
"...go and lick arse its what you are good at..."

Tosser.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 11:54 AM

Well put Ruth!

It is the people who run clubs and festivals and who sing at them that make Smooth Opps possible not the other way round.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 11:46 AM

Chorleybob, I'm not a performer. Neither is anyone else I know who has contributed to this thread. I have no axe to grind.

We do care about traditional music, though, and care about the value of the folk awards. While the number of artists who benefit will always remain small, I'd like to at least believe that the musicians "inside the tent" have arrived there fairly. At the moment, it feels a bit like a closed shop. Seth Lakeman's nomination has deprived someone else (who presumably performed an eligible song) of a nomination. I don't know or care who they are. I'd like to see them on the list.

I reiterate that the term "folk" has come to mean so many things to so many people. The "traditional track" award is one tiny corner of the folk industry that acknowledges the more traditional end of the market, and in fact of the culture. To have a song nominated for the award which isn't traditional undermines even that little bit of acknowledgement. That's why it's important.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 11:40 AM

I have just posted on the BBC site

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F2142825?thread=3737319

asking as we relentlessly do. I guess it is up to each to decide if we have hit a brick wall or a crumbling something or other

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 11:23 AM

well mate disagreeing isnt abusing.
but calling names is.
I have no interest in being told what is or isnt Trad by anyone.
It is aspurious arguement put forward by those who wish to make a little bit of turf for themselves ,somewhere were they are king.
Any one who disagrees is to be slated.
Having said that I have no arguement with anyone who wants to hear or perform the music that we all claim to love and admire.
I therefore will leave you to it in the hopes that you will all get some enjoyment and satisfaction from your own company.
Cheers

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 10:38 AM

Tim,

I think almost everybody on this thread agrees that the song in question is not traditional and this includee Seth, who wrote it. Argument resolved?

Their is a continuum in folk clubs, at festivals and in recordings of songs written a few days ago by someone who is known and dozens of variants of some ballads that can be traced back 400 years without finding out who wrote any of it. Many songs exist somewhere in between.

The main difference between the thing we call "folk" ie the clubs, festivals and recordings and the commercial world of popular music is that folk is mostly made possible by people who run clubs and / or sing in them for nothing other than the pleasure they gain in keeping alive a strange collection of music.

We don't mind if you don't care. We object to Smooth Opps doing something or other in secret and confusing our general conviction that this music belongs to us all. We enjoy the Award winners, but they are only a small part of the dog and we what the contest for the curliest tail to be fair.

If you carry on abusing us all you are a troll, figure that out if you can.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 10:38 AM

Flawed argument, working musician.
I also care about the tradition and the music but I think some peopel are in danger of getting themselves steamed up over a technicality

So we don't care then about the correct attribution of authorship or arrangements? Along with other performers, I'll remember to tell the PRS to shove it next time I'm asked to fill in a form when either doing a gig or recording.

How can you care about the tradition and yet think the "technicality" of its attribution is unimportant? The converse must also be true, let's not worry about acknowledging original work either. Its obvious that Smooth Ops and the Beeb feel the same way.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 10:31 AM

..So the BBC has become as shit as its braindead commercial competitors..

BBC programme & scheduling management are arrogant conceited self-centred wankers
with total disregard & contempt for the BBC's veiwing & listening public

sad..

..but far worse is happening out here in the world of dead-end jobs/unemployment and survival !!!!


so f@ck 'em !!! consume less mainstream media culture..

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:45 AM

Sounds like you got a touch of the old high blood pressure there matey.
Is another thread that some of you start because you think you know best about what folk music is and enjoy the chance to tell the rest of us how clever and commited you are.
It must really burn you up that some of the real movers and shakers in the communications industry dont bother listening to you .
Still Fretting about it will keep you warm over christmas so maybe it will save on the yule tide logs etc.
When one comes across a thread like this one can practically hear the cobwebs forming.
I am so sorry that as a mere listener to your precious and oh so wonderful music I do not understand the real and special meaning of it all and am so gratfull that you are there to tell what to think.
How would the world ever manage with out you .
Define it how you like if no one can be interested in listening to your music then there is no point to it.
It happens to all things in the goodness of time they become obsolete
is just natures way of making room for the new the vital and the interesting. It is not personel.
Oh and terribly sorry for not sticking to the arguements aproved and passed as fit to use By some w*nking musician who only appears as a guest.
Have anice day
Tim

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,ChorleyBob
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:25 AM

Flawed argument, working musician.
I also care about the tradition and the music but I think some peopel are in danger of getting themselves steamed up over a technicality. Just because Twanging Tim disagrees with some of the posters shouldn't debar him from having his two pennorth.
And b) in terms of accuracy and openness at the BBC - I've never heard anything so pompous. Perhaps the DG should resign!
The greater truth is a handful of embittered performers who're outside the tent pissing in, when they'd sooner be inside the tent, are stirring up as much trouble as they can to try and discredit the awards.
I'd love to be inside the tent but I've got enough self-awareness to know I wouldn't come within a mile of getting an award. It doesn't mean I'm any worse than those in the inner snactum....I'm just not award material. GET OVER IT.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,working musician
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:46 AM

It's always entertaining (in the sense that an attack of shingles is entertaining) when someone like Tim the Twanker arrives on a previously thoughtful and well-argued thread, proceeds to deliver a stream of posts that are incoherent, that fail to address existing arguments, that accuse people of saying things they hadn't, and that demand clarification of points already clarified at length, before wrapping the whole thing up in phoney class-war bullshit (as if this trumped all other opinions), and then tells everyone else they're wasting time that could have better spent on more worthwhile actions. Surreal.

Some of us are getting het up because (a) we care about traditional music, and object to our (supposed) flagship media outlet make a mockery of accepted definitions, and (b) we care about the accuracy and openness of the BBC, which is a much bigger issue. I know some of the musicians posting on this thread, and they are neither middle-class do-gooders nor disgruntled wannabe award winners.

As to the guitar, I suggest you try Argos.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Scrump
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:21 AM

It's a point of principle about Seth's song being nominated as 'traditional'. It has been pointed out that the song is not trad (and Seth himself agrees). So why hasn't it been removed from the nominations? That's all we want to know - this is the issue.

If the BBC / Smooth Ops refuse to answer this question, they imply that any song could be accepted (whether written 500 years ago or this year) as 'traditional'.

(Whether the song is 'good', enjoyable to listen to, etc., is another question, and entirely subjective, so doesn't help resolve the above issue.)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:04 AM

1. AS GCB said

2. I've only ever heard one Martin that sounded good - they may be good value in the US, but in the UK they don't pack huge bangs for your, err pound, this is not just my opinion, I know other people who feel the same way. There are plenty of other good guitars around, especially hand made ones. You want a good guitar, how fat is your wallet and soon do you want it? For £10k, you'll get a Sobell Martin Simpson signature, but you'll be a year older before you get it. For £1500 to £3000 you can get a hand made guitar in the UK which will be:-

a) unique
b) better than most production Martins. Now if you have a fat wallet and a big reputation, no doubt Martin will supply you with something special - I'd sooner have something unique.

BTW, don't go looking for a Louden guitar, they don't exist. But should you find a Lowden guitar, there was a period when they were considered not very good at all, but just about every Lowden I have heard is superior to a Martin.

3. From the point of a listener, whether or not is trad or not may not be important, but then again, you may not be bothered about the type of cheese you eat in your sandwiches. For an artist/composer, you will not get royalties on a trad song because you do not own the rights to it, just your arrangement. For a contemporary song you get all the rights unless you sell them to Michael Jackson. Now the issues of revenue earning potential are very important to folk musicians. There is nothing like the amount of money sloshing around in folk music as there is in popular music and many, if not most, professional folk musicians in the UK struggle to make a living. One of the most respected melodeon players in the country has said that he could earn more money as a postman.

Put yourself in the position of Kris Drever, Salsa Celtica, Tim van Eyken or the fifth placed nomination for the best trad song. You might be mightily pissed of if Seth won because you could lose out on sales of CDs, but I suppose that doesn't matter does it?

And on the subject of CD sales, I suppose we should buy from Amazon where, because of discounts, the artist earns 50p at best from an album. If you buy direct from the artist (either web site or at a concert) the artist will get considerably more by having no middle-man. What do we want? Lots of money wearing a hole in our pockets and filthy rich multi-nationals or folk artists who don't need to make a decent living by flogging their guts around the motorways of Britain? Don't forget, we lost one of the best guitar/fiddle/singers in the business when he ran into a lorry, exhausted after doing yet another gig miles from home and not being able to afford accommodation. Is this what we really want? Quality costs and we need to wake up and pay for it.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 06:45 AM

actually there are far too few categories. that's the problem. how about best original tune then - where does that go?

and what's the thinking behind best duo, best band and best live act? are the duo and band not live then? are people supposed to be voting on recorded or live output or both, and why is that not made clear? why do they send a list of CDs out when people are nominating performers - some of whom many not have put a CD out this year?

they should spend less money paying celebs to hand out the gongs and put a bit more effort into making the awards worthy and sensible in the first place

the whole thing is a mess

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST, John C
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 06:37 AM

Maybe the awards should have three 'best song' categories.

Best original

Best traditional

Best reconstruction from trad sources.

Tams' Constant Sorry would have fitted in the last too

In any event the system needs changing

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 06:32 AM

I dont personally take the view that anything Martin does is ordained by the gods of acceptability

For the sake of clarity (would that some would marshall their thoughts into some semblance of which before posting). neither do I and it's not what I said. I was merely describing his reconstruction work, something which Mary Humphreys has done similarly with floating verses. It is not the same as writing a completely new song about a subject (eg a Cornish white bunny) which has never before (as far as can be established) occurred in lyrical form before.

The Folk Awards have two categories, one for Best Traditional Track and another for Best Original Song. It should not be hard to distinguish which songs should be in which, and for the sake of the credibility of the awards and for the profile of our music in general, the process needs to be both accurate and transparent.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 06:14 AM

"3.WHat is the point of stressing over music ,'tis either of atype you wanna listen to or it aint."

You are speaking purely as a consumer, not as a creator, or as someone who makes a living from music. We have a different perspective - as you would if this was about your work and pay packet.

The discussion above is about 1) whether the awards are fair to artists, and 2) whether they will help or hinder the survival of the music we care about (I presume you care, Tim, since you are here).

If it doesn't matter to you, fine. Don't contribute.

This is only 2 threads among thousands. If you're not interested in the debate don't click on this link and post (ithat's what we mean by trolling), click on any one of the hundreds of threads about guitars, where you will find answers to your question 2).

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GerryMc
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 06:06 AM



FWIW

I think the White Hare is a great song. I hope it is trad coz I just recorded a version on me new live CD. (Trad. arr GM/SL ?????)


Gerry :-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,ChorleyBob
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:58 AM

1) A troll is someone who infiltrates a message board to deliberately stir things up ( I think)
2)The best guitars are MARTINS - but I've heard wonderful reports of Loudons
3)I couldn't agree more with questions 3. Well said, sir.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:23 AM

Thank you for that and yes I was refering to TB.
As I said I have not heard the song to which he was refering so cant comment on that.
I am getting the sense that the attribution attached to these none traditional songs as apposed to the actual content or musicality
or other merit that you may feel they have is what is stirring the pot here.
So will leave you too it in the (soon to be corrected belief?) that most of you that are agin' the possible award of a prize to Seth ar basing their opinion around the idea that it is ok to cobble together some spare bits and peices from a library.
Stick a nice tune on and voila a "new Trad" song is born.
But if you make a new song based on the telling of a "Trad Story"
that is not acceptable as "Trad"?
This would seem to be the perfect oportunity for one of those interminable threads about what is Trad?
So is this a thread in which the intent is to uncover a plot to award a prize undeservedly to someone in the hopes of somehow making a profit.
Or
Is it that the company involved doesnt adhere to the prefered veiw of some of you as to what is a traditional Song or tune?
I dont personaly take the veiw that anything Martin does is ordained by the gods of acceptability,although I love his music.
There does seem to be a lot of thoughtful energy going to waste here
But thanks to your kindness in trying to illuminate my ignorance I have only three questions I need to have answered to avoid disrupting my sleep pattern.
1,What is a troll?
2.what is the best guitar?
3.WHat is the point of stressing over music ,'tis either of atype you wanna listen to or it aint.
Is all a personal preference thing at the end of the day innit?
Ok four questions.
Have a fun holiday.
Tim Twangling Troll(maybe)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:29 AM

Tim - I'll hazard a guess that you may be talking about Tom Bliss and his version ('Rue') of Mary Humphreys 'No My Love Not I', made from various other songs that Mary found in The Vaughn Williams Library?

If so there is no comparison with The White Hare.

The tune of 'Rue' remains unchanged from the original, and is clearly Trad however you look at it. Also, all the key lyrical phrases in both Mary and Tom's versions are traceable back to the various collected works - and Tom and Mary list all of these in their sleeve notes, web sites and stage intros (time permitting), so people can go back to these sources if they choose to.

The White Hare would equate better to another of the songs on Tom's solo album: Gentle Maids Ashore. This borrows various lyrical and melodic ideas from various traditional songs, to give it an authentic feel, but Tom does not attribute these in his notes (though he gives a few clues) because he has clearly crossed the line from arranging to composing. He has made a brand new song with a new tune and words (even though from an existing story - much like Seth's Hare), so it is registered as a Bliss composition, and rightly so in my opinion.

I'm hoping Tom won't mind me using his name like this. He has contributed a little to the debate on the BBC thread - so sorry Tom if not!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 09:15 PM

Seth Lakeman has already offered to withdraw his song The White Hare, but Smoothops have so far refused to do so. It was not as though he entered it himself into a contest for Best Traditional Track, but that somewhere between 150 'experts' and Smoothops management, it has somehow been contrived that it has become so. Doubtless SL would have been far better pleased had it been nominated for Best Original Song, since it is far better suited to that category (and apparently a number of the jury did nominate it thus). What is certain is that no-one would have batted an eyelid had it been, and it might even have won.

SL has already explained that he described the song originally as trad because he had culled the subject matter from a Cornish legend and the tune from an, as yet, unidentified source musician. No doubt in retrospect he views this as a mistake, I don't think anyone is accusing him of deliberate deception, just of being a tad inaccurate.

The 'patching together' process which Tim describes is a perfectly legitimate activity which Martin Carthy (to name but one) does absolutely all the time and which usually ends up with a trad/arr attribution. The White Hare (other than its title) has absolutely no basis whatsoever in the tradition as a song, and only possibly as a tune. SL has adapted/arranged many other songs which do have an identifiable traditional origin, and could therefore have had a far better claim to pass muster as trad than this one. What is really strange is Smoothops' adamant insistence on this particular track going forward. One has to ask why.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 08:25 PM

I am sorry that I dont see this as being as important as some of you do.
If there any under hand shenanigans going on I would condem them as you would.
I still dont know what a troll is as applied to me by one of the contributers.
The reason I asked about the patching together of bits of old songs etc is that I recently heard a very well thought of proper folky explain how another of the same was doing this and from his acceptance and enthusiasm for this ladies work(which I dont know)
I have assumed that this is part of finding the music and saving it.
It came over as being part of the way of "the tradition".
I dont know wether it is generally accepted as the way to carry on by those of you who are Traditionalists if I may use that term in a none pejorative way.
If it is then I see no difference between what this guy described to a room full of folkies and what Mr Lakeman seems to have done.
I dont know Mr Lakemans veiw on this but I have generally found people that I have come into contact with on the folk scene to be as honest and straightforward and subject to change as any other group of people.
Perhaps he will withdraw his song or if he has no say in the matter make his veiws known.
I will look in in this thread again but maybe not add anything to what I already contributed.
Have a great festive season and a good new Year.
Dont forget the old saying
Just because you are paranoid .......
LOL
Cheers Tim

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,ChorleyBob
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:32 PM

I'm with Tim on this one : there are a (relatively) small number of undoubtedly decent people working themselves up into a lather over something that really doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:54 PM

(1) SL didn't 'find bits of old songs'. He wrote an original one based on a story.
(2) He fitted the song to a tune which may have been quite old (unlikely) or quite new(ish).
(3) No, this does not constitute 'a traditional song'.
(4) The White Hare (in this form) wasn't revived because it wasn't lost. It didn't exist.
(5) The tune is never likely to be considered trad (despite its unknown authorship) because its structure is not trad,
(6) Neither Smoothops nor the BBC are due for any congratulations whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:18 PM

I forgot to ask.
If someone goes to the trouble of finding lots of bits of old songs and patching them together so they fit into a fairly old tune and sound sort of old and maybe like they should be traditional
Does that make the product of the research,the rewriting and the arranging an acceptable traditional tune or song?
I only ask because I believe that for something to be traditional it has to be part of a tradition and as far as I know an tradition is something that is actualy extant as it would be in say a family tradition of singing a particular song ar drinking a given drink at some point in time in celebration or rememberence of something or someone.
Something that is ongoing could be traditional but can something that is traditional still be considered to be traditional if it is no longer drunk,sung,performed,remembered,etc.
Would a traditional song or tune need reviving,or discovering or finding?
Surely if it were traditional it wouldnt be lost.
What it could be is a tune or song that was traditional in a certain time period.
If it needs reviving or finding or whatever that surely means it is no longer a tradition.
So Mr Lakemans song even if it is not trad at this time may be at some point in the future.
So shouldnt the BBC or their representatives be congratulated for their forsight is shortlisting it now?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:07 PM

I have noticed a remarkable variety of opinions on this thread, but haven't so far detected anyone chasing a Smooth Operations Folk Award yet. We don't move in such rarefied social circles.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:00 PM

Or maybe less interested in winning awards than some?
Whats a Troll BTW?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 04:10 PM

Tim the Twangler: troll or rather inaccurate estimator of other people's income and social class? The choice is yours.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 04:01 PM

Seth Lakeman hasn't done anything wrong, nor has he won anything - yet. The Awards ceremony is not until next February. If Tim would care to actually read the thread, he might grasp that the putative villains are Smoothops who seem to have somehow 'manipulated' the nomination of one of SL's self-composed songs in the Trad category.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:32 PM

Not at all I assume you are all decent humans beings who are getting hung up about as you see it unfair winning of awards by Mr Lakeman.
My point is what does it matter?
The world is an unfair place for the majority of the population all the time.
This appears to me to be the out pouring of luke warm anger over something trivial in the scheme of things and basically some nice middle income middle englanders are a bit miffed that they dont agree with the way some other middle income middle englanders have given out an award.
The one party works for a londoncentric Broadcaster or their representetives the rest of you ?????
Just enjoy the school hols, have afine time with freinds and relations and if there is anything illegal going on the lawyers among you can progress things along the usual channels.
There are worse things being done in your Name(and Mine) that could really do with some pressure on our great leaders from people like you. Witty inteligent well educated etc.
Thats all folks
Cheers
Tim

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 02:26 PM

Tim,

why are so angry at us? This is what we want:

"I think we have discussed and rehearsed the arguments. I suggest that those who are dissatisfied with the current arrangements for who gets what should keep asking the BBC about two issues:

1. The White Hare, by any current deffinition, is not a traditional song.

2. The method of deciding who gets awards is unclear, unavailable and not trusted by lots of people who are the natural and continuing supporters of folk music.

If these points do not matter then neither do the Awards. Since the Awards are the BBC Awards, the BBC should:

1. Remove the song from the traditional catergory

2. Tell Snooth Opps to reveal the details of exactly how Awards are given

3. Organise a system that is open, transparent and trusted."

Se post 1.

You seem to assume we are all kinds of things and are guilty(?) of all kinds of class offences and that this thread and traditional song is all we care about.

I have posted on here for a few years and it seems to me that lots of people have lots of opinions and say that they take action about some of them. I guess you do as well. That makes you a bit like us doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 08:59 AM

There are a lot better causes for speaking out about natural justice on this dirtball planet,and whoever told you that there are any working class persons who have any ownership of anything is this middle class dictatorship we live in?
Maybe you mean because poor people pay taxes that are proportionaly higher in there effect on our living standards,we would have a stake in what the BBC does?
That is rubbish,we live in a democracy that is designed to maintain the middle and upper classes in their positions of power
The only reason you lot are moaning is that you are used to getting your own way,you feel ignored and not part of the establishment,no longer on the inside,but out in the cold with the rest of us.
Well tough!
You only belong as long as you agree to be told what to think,you need to be carefull you might start to feel marginalised and excluded
then people who dont have the balls to disagree with the system will start to humour you and snigger behind your back.
You may be shunned in Sainsbury's and passed over for promotion at work.
LOL
Better start practising your pucker then they will maybe take some of your veiws on board and you never know perhaps in a year or two if you are really good...
and without admitingthat they have changed their policies in any way you may get to be allowed to ?
What is it you want to happen exactly?
I dont think there was any mention of that on the whole of this thread was there?
Take the prize back?
Give it too .... do any of you even have another recipient in mind?
Of course you wouldnt want it yourselves thats not the point is it?
LOL
ANd a happy new year!