BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)

Subject: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 06:55 AM

Closed threads & deleted posts (2)

The above thread was closed with the following editing comment.

Thread closed. Shambles started posting his complaints in another thread.
-Joe Offer-

The last time the excuse used for closing the thread was spam.

The 'offending' posts used to be moved to this one - but this time - they seem to have been deleted.

The following post was probably the post that was liked the least by our 'moderators' and which they do not want our forum to see.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: The Shambles - PM
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 06:35 AM

Oh, and I see all these anonymous, nonspecific complaints thrown here and there about Catspaw. We don't allow personal attacks, and if I receive complaints from individuals who have been attacked by any Mudcatter, I'll review the situation. The thing is, I have never directly received a specific complaint about Catspaw from an identified person, and most people seem to think his posts are funny and not malicious. If you have reason to object to a post that is directed at you, contact me by personal message or e-mail. Anonymous complaints and complaints posted in the Forum are ignored.

Sadly - imposed editing actions from anonymous fellow posters cannot be ignored by those victims whose posts are subjected to the 'silent deletion'.

The specific 'complaints' posted from an identified long-term member were to the effect that the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team is publicly seen to be encouraging the posting of these abusive personal attacks from certain favoured posters at the same time as being seen to be banning another for the same thing.

It would appear that the only 'complaints' from one poster about another are ever encouraged and actions - but I see little point in this. Those who post abusive personal attacks only show themselves in a poor light (or perhaps their true colours) and can be ignored. And posters can be encouraged to ignore them and anything else that may not be to their taste.

But if it is announced by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team that a 'crack down' on such postings is in operation - our forum may be puzzled as to what effect he judges his openly displayed position is having.

If you want a formally worded complaint from an identified long-term memeber - here it comes.

That the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team is being seen to allow, justify, excuse and openly encourge such posts from certain favoured posters whilst being seen to take action against others for the same thing.

When at the same time publicly announcing to our forum a crack down on such posts.

And by setting this example of unfair and personally motivated treatment - has compromised all on our forum (no matter how well-intentioned this may be judged to be) - and demonstrated a complete unsuitability for this role by threatening and constantly placing posters in positions where they feel they have to publicly take sides.

I formally request that the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team should resign or be removed from this role - before any more damage is caused to our forum.

And despite our best efforts, Mudcat is no longer a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion. So, I think something has to be done. Ebbie's suggestion about putting Secret Santa in the music section is a very simple answer to one major objection I had to members-only BS posting - duh, why didn't I think of that?

So, short of members-only posting, what can we do to bring peace to this place? I'd rather have another solution, but I haven't been able to think of one.
-Joe Offer-
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Shamby-Pamby what is your problem man? Every swingin' dick in the joint has prettty much told you to get bent but you can't take "Fuck You" for an answer! Let me repeat for your benefit.....FUCK YOU!.....and the horse you rode in on. Matter of fact, you need to notice that your horse was killed by the last windmill you failed to topple but a broke-dick fanook like yourself probably beats animals. Matter of fact we DID see that from you before didn't we? Why not drop this sillyass vendetta against Max? You DO relaize that it is Max you're attacking here don't you? Probably not.....what a fuckin' mook............
Catspaw
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles - PM
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 02:04 PM

Well, I used to give you equal treatment, Shambles - but you kept badgering me about that being repressive censorship.
So, you got what you asked for. Catspaw can say what he likes about you, until such time as you stop your incessant campaign against the way we do things here. You are not a nice person, Shambles. Do not expect to be treated nicely.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 06:57 AM

Closed threads & deleted posts (3)

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 06:59 AM

Closed threads & deleted posts (2)

Has been closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 07:03 AM

You may have missed the following editing comment as it was inserted into an existing post where no editing action in fact took place and did not refresh this thread.

Oh, no! I thought you were the holy one.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 07:09 AM

Villianization starts early in the morning, doesn't it, replete with good guy/bad guy namimg, and it comes down from on high. Why should the personality likes and dislikes of Joe Offer and 'moderators' control any posting matter? Mudcat needs standards, not arbitrariness, capriciousness, and favoritism.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: My guru always said
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 07:26 AM

Just a quick phrase I noticed in the 'cut&paste' in the first post of this thread which I assume is either from Max or Joe in the closed thread:

If you have reason to object to a post that is directed at you, contact me by personal message or e-mail. Anonymous complaints and complaints posted in the Forum are ignored.

Looks self-explanatory to me & good advice!

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 07:30 AM

Deleted posts & closed threads

Has been closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 07:35 AM

A personal complaint and attack by management, against a member no less, launches this thread. Should we ignore it?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 07:39 AM

Isn't it awful what they did to Marie Antoinnette?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: jacqui.c
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 07:47 AM

And her such a humanitarian too!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 07:53 AM

Looks self-explanatory to me & good advice!

There is nothing in this assurance to say that both courses of action cannot be attempted.

I have formally complained privately.

And I have always made my views public to enable our forum to openly discuss aspects that affect all posters.

There is also nothing in this assurance that suggests that it would be seen to be honoured any more that all the other assurances that our forum have been given and which are seen not to be honoured.

When the example is set by our 'moderators' of complaining about, imposing actions on, judging the worth of individual named posters, outing them, indulging in making personal abusive attacks on them, encouraging certain favoured posters to follow this example and asking and expecting public support for such actions and the Help and Trouble Forum seems to be set up to encourge complaints against fellow posters and to request actions to be imposed on others - it may sound a little hypocritical to expect posters to post any concerns about our 'moderators's' actions to be conducted privately.

Don't you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 07:58 AM

What they did to Marie Antoinette

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 08:05 AM

I have some cake spare for the bourgoise if so required.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 08:16 AM

Well, I VERY seldom open these threads, but, I just had to see what was up.

Roger said... "...our 'moderators' and which they do not want our forum to see."

"Our"? You STILL at that crap?

Take off, eh, ya hoser.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 08:17 AM

What happened to the first post, quoted in the second (which now appears to be the first)?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 08:25 AM

I hope it's an early casualty of Joe's new crackdown!
G

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 08:32 AM

Which crackdown, G-Man, on which subset of posters?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 08:34 AM

All naughty posters XG-Man.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 08:39 AM

And really all this is besides the point. In my opinion, whether I and others here are liked or disliked shouldn't be the issue.

What I'm concerned about is the potential and/or real acts of incivility and the real & potential misuse of power without consistent consequences.

I'm sharing these opinions not to cause trouble but to try to help this community address what I consider to be real & potential areas of weakness.

That is just about saying it all. It is only a shame that so few posters are prepared to stick their heads up and say it. But hardly surprising as they fear they too will be targeted and accused of making trouble if they do.

The problem is that when such things are posted - it is either ignored, the poster's worth are judged and their motives and mental health speculated about or some vague reassurance is provided (or excuse about best efforts etc) and nothing is seen to change.

Except that in the face of this - fewer and fewer posters seem prepared to stay and try and post what is plainly true.

The only thing our forum can be sure of is that if any poster is not satisfied and does not shut up or go away - they will be subjected to the very misuses of power without consequences that they were concerned and posting about in the first place.

If the very least to be expected is posting with civilty - the example should be seen to be set by those who would feel themselves qualified to judge the rest of us.

If this is not going to happen - and there is very little sign that it is even likely - then it is up to posters to demonstrate that a better example can be set - than being seen to be adopting the very same bullying tactics used by flamers and trolls.

For then there can never be any discernable difference.

But now this biggest single and counter-productive weakness now appears to be seen - by our 'moderators' and their few but noisy supporters as a strength.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 08:44 AM

Naughty posters abound here, G-Man, and they aren't all guests. And the first post a guest mentioned came from Mudcat management.

Subject: RE: BS: The crack down
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 08:50 AM

Closed threads and deleted posts

Has been closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 09:00 AM

The crack down

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 09:06 AM

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST,fauxno
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 09:37 AM

I did not install the red print beneath my last post in "Closed threads & deleted posts (2)".

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Gizmo
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 09:44 AM

This will most likely be the first and last post I will put here -or on any closed thread #1 - 1million by the way it's going!

Shambles - I realise it has all been said before, and objectively I can see everyones point.

Just post your gripes once to the mods as a pm then if you must do it - here in public but once only - no more. The problem is, you're starting to alienate all those who may have had sympathy for your cause. You seem to be stuck in a loop, which, for some might be good entertainment, but becomes boring after awhile. Try to see this as a positive criticism and maybe learn to post differently.

As far as what I can see, the mods and clones have every right to stop anyone misbehaving on the forum. They are trying hard to keep the below line forum open and public. If you were chucked out of a bar in London, or a shop - it's the managers right and discretion to do so, and not for us to keep pester to find out why. They have the right to do so without question.

Sometimes I have to keep my children apart in a squabble - sometimes I have to appeal to the less trouble of them, just to stop the loop of "you did..." "no you did..."

In the same respect maybe you should do the same too. Stop repeating yourself, you do yourself a disfavour in doing so.

In the same context if you keep on at Joe, Max et al, then there only reply to you should be the list of ground rules to be applied by forum members. Then each time they are questioned - blue clicky to what has already been said.

Shambles, there are many, many causes out there which you would be better suited at campaigning against. Mudcats rules should not be one of them. You are wasting your time, resources and energy which if spent for more useful, world changing campaigns you would be seen as a hero, rather than an annoying poster.

Please read this for the constructive advice given, as I am not intending to dig at you or take sides as it were.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 09:54 AM

So attempts to make certain points are too repetitive but personal attacks are not?

If a rule is not enforced uniformly, does it have validity as a rule?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 10:35 AM

Just post your gripes once to the mods as a pm then if you must do it - here in public but once only - no more. The problem is, you're starting to alienate all those who may have had sympathy for your cause.

No that is not the problem at all. It is however what you are encouraged by our 'moderators' to see as the problem.

What you seem to have overlooked is why the same effort involved in trying to prevent my views from being posted is not simply put in to our 'moderators' addressing whatever 'gripes' are the problem?

You seem to have found the rather easy and obvious solution to you being irritated by reading my posts and as you won't be seeing any more of them - I may as well carry on and allow other posters to make the same choice as you - to read my views or not.

Anyone who really allows any personal irritation to alienate them from supporting the right of everyone to be seen to be given a fair crack - does not really understand how hard the struggle to ensure this has always had to be.

And I fear that they will only have themselves to blame when they wake up to find they have not only had this right taken away from them - but will have played an active role in this.

Thank you for your advice - which along with all the other unsolicited advice on how, what, and where I should post - will be noted. But my advice to you - for what it is worth is the following bit of unsolicted advice that was recently given to me on our forum...................

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

Or at least try to do this until those who do mind - are allowed to finally succeed in preventing you.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 10:42 AM

Your posts, and your cut and pastes are all over the Mudcat Roger, your claim about restricted posting is a sham. Perhaps if you abandoned repetitious postings, and trying to tweak the noses of those who keep the site tidy, by posting dubious birthday threads, and went back to posting intelligent contributions in the music threads, you might find less critical opprobrium occurring
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 10:48 AM

Accusations of repetitiousness get repetitious, don't they, G-Man, even when accompanied by repetitious personal attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 10:49 AM

Your posts, and your cut and pastes are all over the Mudcat Roger, your claim about restricted posting is a sham.

Thread closed. Shambles started posting his complaints in another thread.
-Joe Offer-

I always thought that encouraging all poster to contribute to our forum was its whole point.

Perhaps we need an additional members only forum for the encouragment of the posting of this 'critical opprobrium'?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: jeffp
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 11:01 AM

Shambles has been asked to leave

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 12:36 PM

Then this thread should be closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 05:13 PM

From: Gizmo - PM
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 09:44 AM

This will most likely be the first and last post I will put here -or on any closed thread #1 - 1million by the way it's going!

Shambles - I realise it has all been said before, and objectively I can see everyones point.

Just post your gripes once to the mods as a pm then if you must do it - here in public but once only - no more.

Seeing the end result of sending a PM - that's the last time I will follow your advice.........

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 05:15 PM

Hoisted by another's petard... YOINK!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: skipy
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 05:32 PM

Just go!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 06:34 PM

Come on. I thought this guy was gone. Can't anyone do something about him once and for all? Or are you just going to have him keep laughing in your face?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST,the doc
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 06:40 PM

Slowly walk away from your computer and deal with your demons elsewhere. You are obsessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 11:15 PM

Let's see, on the day that Shambles is asked to leave he is able to post 10 times. My guess is that he really didn't get the message. Or, as usual, he's going to throw it in Mudcat's face.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 11:24 PM

He manages to capture some management edicts or announcements, for later cut and paste quotation, that would otherwise get away from some of us, given their capability of moving around or disappearing.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Slag
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 03:43 AM

I just had to LOOK. Oh my. Hey! You kow what? All this crapping, er I mean carpping, well, either way, all this "stuff" would sure help out the 85 billion post thread? That's probably been suggested more than once. Well, I will look no more.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST,I was there in the middle man
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 04:29 AM

What are you doing over here, Slag, while your thread awaits you? Never mind, I have brought it to the top!

And where are you, IWTATBM? I don't know - do I have to do all this heavy lifting myself?

Come comrades. Let us do our duty on the 85 billion post thread, which is a much more worthy cause!

IWTITMM

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 04:49 AM

The thread Shambles has been asked to leave   has now been closed by persons and for reasons unknown.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 01:05 PM

In the closed thread, Max's withholding of permission to publicly berate a fellow human being is reminiscent of Brer Rabbit's request not to be thrown into the briar patch.

Not that permission ever seemed to be needed - but official permission to berate this fellow human being had already been given to our forum in the following.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles - PM
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 02:04 PM

Well, I used to give you equal treatment, Shambles - but you kept badgering me about that being repressive censorship.
So, you got what you asked for. Catspaw can say what he likes about you, until such time as you stop your incessant campaign against the way we do things here. You are not a nice person, Shambles. Do not expect to be treated nicely.
-Joe-

Which was included in the complaint that was ignored but for which I was then publicly asked to leave for making.

The message that seem to be coming across is that those who spend most of their time complaining about their fellow posters and blaming them, like the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team - do not like to be complained about - no matter how poor an example they set.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 03:57 AM

What happened to the thread on hemorrhaging membership? Why is selective access blocking of guests being done today, even if a guest has initiated no personal attack nor done anything officially prohibited, malicious, or illegal? The fact remains, anonymity is allowed, and even most members are functionally anonymous due to the use of authored user names.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 04:41 AM

Our membership is hemorrhaging- any ideas (and all of its 225 posts) has been deleted by persons and for reasons unknown.

I think it was the post from Catspaw explaining why he thinks he should be seen to indulge himself in his ossessions, to be seen to compromise his 'friends' and openly encouraged by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team to inflict on our forum any form of obscene personal abuse he wishes to - but still have some right and entitlement to judge and try and prevent others (who do not contribute such posts and some that follow his example) from posting what they wish.

That may have been the reason for that thread's deletion - or it may have been that it contained some sensible suggestions.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 08:10 AM

The "hemmoraging" thread is gone, not just closed? Pathetic. Mudcat is falling apart. Many members will be bitterly disappoiunted, but none will be more upset to see their toy in pieces than Max and Joe. Yet they've brought it on themselves.

Max, to be fair, probably has the intellect to give the cafe a Gordon Ramsay makeover, but seemingly he hasn't the time. Thus he has to depend on the hapless Joe, who doesn't know which way to turn.

Anyway, the loss of that "hemmoraging" thread is a bitter blow for me. It had in it a post from me that was one of the very few that has brought me PMs in support.

In a nutshell I had been remarking on the kind of personal abuse that Spaw is allowed to spew. The example I quoted was the choice piece of Spawspew which has already been quoted in this thread, in which Shambles was subjected to tirade of venomous abuse. Not only (I flew on) was Spaw allowed to do this, but he was positively encouraged to do so by the Mudcat moderator, Joe Offer. Again the relevant post from Joe is quoted higher in this thread. Yet at the same time as he was so successfully drawing out the worst in Spaw, St Joe was solemnly assuring the Mudcat community that personal abuse would not be tolerated.

Of course, the sense of justice in Mudcat's higher echelons is such that it was Shambles, not Spaw, who was asked to leave! What would a visitor to Mudcat, an innocent abroad, make of all this? Well such a visitor would be greeted by a chorus of sycophantic voices saying "Oh, you couldn't begin to understand, you poor newbie...." How very welcoming.

I don't suppose Joe and Spaw had much by way of answers to what I posted, so I guess they reckoned it was easiest just to delete the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 11:10 AM

I don't 'suppose' any answer would satisfy some of the complainers. Just how long and to what degree are forum moderators supposed to keep explaining, arguing and debating their decisions?

If every defense & explanation of a decision just leads to more acrimony and dissention, why bother? Joe and sometimes Max have explained many times what they wish to control, and how they'd like things to run....and Max has just stated that ideas are being worked on to deal with some of the problems. In the meantime, all the bickering, not only about the problems, but about HOW to bicker, have gotten way beyond hope of agreement.....and I have no doubt that if it continues in this thread, it will go too!

*shrug*...people have gotten pretty spoiled about just what is reasonable in an 'open' forum. There MUST be limits and control, even if a few see sinister plots behind it.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 12:56 PM

BELOW IS THE EXACT MESSAGE I POSTED ON THE DELETED THREAD.
*****************************************************************************************************

I thought perhaps I should post here just to expand on Cluin's and Guest's and Fionn's posts above.

I have not been posting simply because that was what Max asked of ALL of us when he posted the "Shambles Has Been Asked to Leave" thread. No one including Jeff, Max, or Joe has communicated with me as to anything else. AND, yes, I had posted on New Year's Eve the following after someone asked why Spaw hadn't been censored:

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (2)
From: catspaw49 - PM
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 08:55 PM

Because the favoured poster is so lovable.

Ya' know Roger, the only reason I ever drop by here is just for fun and to take the piss out of you for no reason whatsoever. Well, I guess there is a reason...........I seem to annoy you and that's reason enough. You have been annoying this place for years. All your huffing and puffing don't mean a thing because there is only what is. At some point Max will take the piss out of you instead of me doing it. That might be a sad day because under the neurotic asshole persona, you're an otherwise intelligent being.

Maybe it will come to you in the new year though I doubt it. You're not saving Mudcat. It isn't yours to save. Back off and let Max take care of things in the best time frame that he and Jeff can. Make it a resolution for the new year huh? You've made all the points that you have to make and you can see that no one but you is too interested. "Our" forum, as you like to say, would be far better off for it. If you can't do that, then I'll be around just for the hell of it to screw with you. I'll post a lot of stupid, demeaning, and generally stupid, stuff to try and equal your stupid stuff.

Give it up Rog......Why waste the bandwidth? We can both stop now as the New Year arrives!!!!

I had not posted a word past this and when Max asked Roger to leave, I wasn't surprised. If you'll check back, for all of those posts some of you complain about and are so offended by (please grow up), there are also a considerable number like that one where I asked Roger to back off. Roger and I have both been here about the same length of time ('98 or so with a few months difference) and I remember well and often posted glowingly with words of admiration for his poetry and song.   But even in '99' he had begun to harp on his discontent with the 'Cat. At one point, amidst much fanfare he left. When he returned a few months later he began this crap with Max's decisions regarding the way the place worked.

He and I had some good fights back then but at one point we called a truce......and it held for a good while. Then he really got going on this bullshit "every word is precious" and that did me in. This is the internet. Our rights extend only as far as the site owner deems fitting. We all post at the pleasure and with the permission of the site owner on EVERY site for chrissakes. Max has let this go on because he's a good guy and likes to see things work out in the real world. I know of no other website that allows continual harping and complaining and generally berating words and attitudes as to the site administration. Most places would have ushered Roger to the door and kicked his ass off the planet.

Max isn't like that and now Roger has forced him into an untenable position. This was just a first step. Other things will change and happen and then other steps will be taken if Roger insists upon staying. That decision is still Roger's and if I were him, I'd take a break and think about it.   If you think Roger has some good points (personally I don't) then it might be good to keep in mind that Max DID NOT ask him to leave because of things he was saying. Most sites would, but Max didn't. Max asked him to go because he has been continually harping on the same crap for years. He has been given all the answers but because they aren't what Roger wants to hear, he keeps right on pissing and moaning. Enough is enough.

I just wanted to clarify Cluin's and the other posts a bit. I'll let my New Year's post stand for itself in its entirety. And btw, I have no idea where Mick is. If his first of the year has been anything like mine, he's been busy in the 3D world.

..........and fuck Florida.

Spaw
**********************************************************************************************************
THAT IS THE ENTIRETY OF THE POST.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 01:39 PM

There must be fair and reasonable controls, Bill--and that is the issue here--there is a lot of feeling that the controls were slow to be introduced, that they are not clearly defined, that they are insufficient to the problems that they were supposed to deal with, and have been arbitrarily, and self-servingly applied--

Maybe these concerns are unjustified, but when reasonably calm "open" discussions are closed and deleted because the moderators are tired of hearing them, it mitigates to the other side--

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 01:40 PM

noted for the record. Now, let's NO ONE say any more.