Folklore: Deliberate imperfections

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: GUEST,quest
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 12:56 PM

Evidently this "imperfection" status does not pertain to fruits and vegetables. Modern consumers shopping at super stores are loathe to buy apples and other "fresh produce" that are dented or spotted. In Florida imperfect appearing foods are not allowed to come to market.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: Celtaddict
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 11:40 AM

I grew up hearing from my grandfather and my mother, about those individual variations that make any handmade or personally performed item slightly different from every other, "That is the print of the potter's thumb." Every handsewn garment (including my white velvet wedding dress) seemed to have a speck of blood in it from a pin or needle stick. I would never presume to think my work would be so nearly perfect that I would need to introduce any imperfection deliberately, but rather assume that artisans of all sorts over the years recognize that there will be these individual variations. To me, they do indicate the human nature of the maker, which in itself has value in this age (or probably in any age). For a practical maker (as the one Jim Dixon describes) to respond with the observation that this is a fact of life and not worth trying to change, and an esthete (such as the oriental ceramicists bee-dubya-ell describes) to see that as part of the interest of the piece, and for the devout ones to consider that perfection is a divine, not a human, trait, and for a philosopher to recognize and accept the inevitable reminder of fallibility or distinction, seem all one to me.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: Scoville
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 09:32 AM

Including a deliberate imperfection in a quilt was not peculiar to the Amish. I don't know that anyone still does it since quilting has become so commercialized and competitive, but pretty much every quilter I've ever met knows about at least the *legend* of the deliberate imperfection, and a lot of older quilts have imperfections that may or may not have been deliberate, even if they are otherwise immaculately constructed. None of the quilters I know personally are Amish.

* * * * *

There are plenty of imperfections in my music but none of them are deliberate. Of course, none of my quilting imperfections were deliberate, either. Oh, well.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: Mo the caller
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 09:05 AM

I've heard a different version.
An item (e.g. knitted garment)is more valued with a mistake as this proves it is hand-made, not machine produced.

I like the 10' rule, we have a saying "its better than it was" to excuse imperfect jobs about the house

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 08:37 AM

Interesting thread!

I have it niggling at the back of my mind that I have heard something about this before, but I cant remeber what.

Of course, like a couple of people have suggested, it may just be a craftsman thinking quick, when someone points out a flaw! *G*

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 08:22 AM

OK, here's my theory about perfection. Perfection is impractical. A pot doesn't have to be perfect to hold water. A blanket doesn't have to be perfect to keep you warm.

(Of course, I'm talking about perfection in the decorative pattern only; especially, in the symmetry of the pattern.)

Most consumers don't care about perfection, at least not enough to pay a premium for it, at least not enough of a premium to compensate the artisan for the extra care it takes to achieve perfection. Most consumers don't even notice imperfections that would be obvious to the artisan.

While there is nothing wrong with perfection per se, there *is* something wrong with being a perfectionist. If a potter (especially an unskilled beginner) obsessively tries to make a perfect pot, his productivity will suffer. He will have fewer pots to sell, and will make less money in the long run.

Musicians often have to struggle with perfectionism in the recording studio. If you obsess about trying to lay down the perfect track, it will cost you a fortune in studio time. Eventually you have to decide: "It's not perfect, but it's good enough."

I can imagine a master craftsman advising his apprentice: "Forget about perfection. Just concentrate on learning to make as many pots as you can in a day. That's how you make money. That's how you will support your family."

Consider something that takes a long time to make, such as a hand-knotted Persian rug. Suppose an apprentice rug-maker has been working several days at a normal pace, he's maybe half finished, and he realizes that, so far, he hasn't made any mistakes—his work is perfect. He thinks he has a chance to make a perfect rug, something that is nearly unheard of. Then a while later, he realizes that, a couple of rows back, he did make a mistake after all. He used the wrong color yarn. The temptation would be mighty strong to go back and unravel the last couple of rows and fix the mistake.

But the master forbids it. "Let it go. Keep going." He knows that a tendency toward perfectionism is a liability in the long run, and the apprentice had better get over it.

The apprentice finds this hard to accept. He can't give up hoping that his work will be perfect. He might even imagine that the master has ulterior motives. "He doesn't want me to make anything perfect. He's jealous." This could even lead to a battle of wills between the master and apprentice.

The master might even make a rule: "Make your mistake early on, and get it over with. Then you won't worry so much about the rest of the rug."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 06:13 AM

Hey, I'll use that excuse next time I stumble over the words of a song, or fluff a chord :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 06:03 AM

Like Topsie, I've heard it associated with Islamic art, where calligraphers were supposed not to make a copy perfect because that would be blasphemous.
It does seem to be a pretty universal myth - a meme even. Fascinating stuff; any more?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 05:47 AM

I have often heard it said about Islamic art - almost always by people who are trying to excuse a mistake they have spotted either in their own work or in mine.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: Johnhenry'shammer
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 12:33 AM

The Zen potters make deliberate glaze drips that they call "controlled accidents" (i forget the Japanese term).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 12:27 AM

AS I heard it, it was Chinese artists/artisans, because once you see the imperfection, only then do you appreciate the quality of the whole work.
From the look of the tat that we get from China nowadays, some of them take the idea too far.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 12:19 AM

I'm skipping ahead to post this without reading all of the intervening answers. I watched a fascinating program perhaps as many as 8 or 10 years ago (on PBS, probably) with information about Islamic art, and one of the central principles was that the art was not to compete with god for perfection. So there was an imperfection built in. That program was so compelling that I've used that annecdote--about building in the imperfection so as not to offend the god, as a sort of whimsical excuse for not worrying too much about occasional typos in print documents we produce at the university librayr library. :)

I have a feeling this information came through in a program like Nature, one that examined life in the north African desert and how both animals lived and humans arose there. Lots of discussion of living with very little water, and of life at an oasis, and of the cultures living in that environment.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: Cluin
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 12:13 AM

Take a picture of your face from directly in front. Divide it down the middle vertically and copy and flip each part so the mirror image fills the lost side. You'll have 2 exactly symmetrical faces that look like 2 different people that resemble one another.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: JennieG
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 12:05 AM

People aren't symmetrical! How many of you have one foot a bit bigger than the other, or one leg a big longer? Many women have one breast slighter larger than the other too.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: Joe_F
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 11:36 PM

Here's another one, from R. P. Feynman, Lectures in Elementary Physics, 0th ed., 1962, Vol. II, Chap. 52:

"Why is nature so nearly symmetrical? Nobody has any idea why. The only thing we might suggest is something like this: There is a gate in Japan, a gate in Neiko, which is sometimes called by the Japanese the most beautiful gate in all Japan; it was built at a time when there was great influence from Chinese art. This gate is very elaborate with lots of gables and beautiful carving and lots of columns, and dragon heads, and princes carved into the pillars, and so on. But when one looks closely he sees that, in the elaborate and complex design along one of the pillars, one of the small design elements is carved upside down; otherwise the thing is completely symmetrical. If one asks why this is, the story is: it is carved upside down, so that the gods will not be jealous of the perfection of man. So they purposely put an error in there, so that the gods would not be jealous and get angry with human beings.

"We might like to turn the idea around and think that the true explanation of the near symmetry of nature is this: that God made the laws only nearly symmetrical, so that we should not be jealous of His perfection!"

Feynman does not say that he himself saw the gate, tho he had been in Japan. It is not clear where he got the story. A Google search merely brings up other quotations of the same passage in Feynman.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 11:34 PM

I'd always heard that every Persian (Iranian) carpet had included "God's knot" in the early stages to state that the weaver was not even attempting to make anything perfect...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: JennieG
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 11:29 PM

Dennis, I have heard this one about the Aran sweaters too. Apparently each family was supposed to have a particular pattern, or combination of patterns, that was their own, so if a fishing boat was involved in a mishap the men could be identified.

But I don't know if it's true.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: CapriUni
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 11:04 PM

I've heard this about Navajo rug weavers, but not for the "Only God is perfect," reason, but rather, that the slight imperfection allows the "spirit of creativity" an escape route, so that another rug can be woven in the future.

And, regarding the deliberate asymmetry of Japanese pottery: Can that really be counted toward "imperfection," if, in that asthetic, symmetrical is boring (and I think I agree, on that point)?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: GUEST,DrWord
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 09:24 PM

heard exactly the same tale re: Irish (or perhaps, specifically the Aran Islands) sweaters knitted with a "deliberate imperfection".
I hunch this is mythical ... it was elaborated with the notion that the sweater could be used to identify a drowned fisherman.
Interesting thread.

cheers
dennis

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 08:25 PM

As a working potter, I'm very familiar with the idea of intentionally adding "imperfection" into one's work. Pots created on a potter's wheel are, by their very nature, round and symmetrical. For many potters, myself included, working within the framework of symmetry and striving toward an aesthetic of grace and elegance is what our work is all about.

But many other potters reach a point where they begin to feel that "round is boring" so they intentionally add asymmetry into their work. I have a friend who decided to take the entire year of 2006 "off from round". Every pot he made was struck with a wooden paddle, smacked with the heel of his hand, dropped onto a tabletop, or deformed in some other fashion.

Asymmetry is also part of the aesthetic of Japanese tea bowl making, a seemingly minor ceramic discipline, but one about which entire books have been written and to which acknowledged master ceramicists have devoted lifetimes. (Click here for a picture of a typical tea bowl.) The potter may intentionally work with a ball of clay that is slightly off-center on the wheel, "lopsided" rims aren't trimmed true, fingermarks aren't smoothed out, and random acts of deformation are common. Personally, when I see or handle a tea bowl like the one in the photo link, I feel more of a sense of the pot's earthly origins than I do with more refined pottery, my own included.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 08:03 PM

I thought it was originally about Intel chip designers.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: JennieG
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 07:57 PM

Spaw, I know women who have justified a mistake in a quilt by saying "I did it deliberately!" *grin*

Me, I go for the 10 foot rule - if you can stand 10 feet away from something and it looks good, that's OK by me. Doesn't matter if it's a quilt or anything else.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 07:53 PM

Love your post Jennie!

"Myth" is completely believable but that it HAS attached itself to the Amish (or whomever) now makes it reality.

It is the beauty of folklore to make myths real. Tell a tale long enough and it is no longer a tale but a truth. I think how many myths surround some of the instruments..............Once believed and accepted, all the facts in the world will never convince some that their treasured belief is a myth. And sometimes the truth just plain gets in the road of a damn fine tale. Remember how depressed youwere when you found out that "Posh" did NOT come from "Port Out, Starboard Home?"***grin***

Spaw

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: jeffp
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 07:50 PM

I remember reading it in a book about the Japanese game of Go. It said that the horizontal lines on a Go board were spaced slightly differently than the vertical lines. Additionally, the pieces were slightly oversize so that in play, it will not be perfectly aligned. However, the explanation wasn't religious, it was that the Japanese believed perfection to be uninteresting.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 07:43 PM

Yeah.......A pretty common story re: the Amish. I grew up in the Amish country of eastern Ohio and I remember that admonition from my youngest days. Thing is there were alot of German roots in that area and the respect for God was not the sole province of the Amish. For instance the Moravian religion had a large presence there as well and they were a pretty devout bunch too.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: JennieG
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 07:43 PM

Apparently the deliberate imperfection myth is just that...a myth. I'm a quiltmaker and I read a lot about quiltmaking and quilt history, and it seems to be a story that has attached itself to Amish quitmaking. If someone making a quilt ran out of - say - dark blue fabric before finishing the quilt and substituted a lighter blue fabric for one or two blocks it was not a 'deliberate' mistake, just an attempt to finish something already started.
We need Rapaire in on this, his wife has a house full of quilt books!

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 07:34 PM

I think someone may have confused their religious sects. I'd always heard the deliberate imperfection principle mentioned in regard to Amish quiltmakers.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: gnomad
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 07:26 PM

1: Yes re Turkish carpet-weavers
2: No
3: No


Version 2
1: Yes, again Turkey, but this time in relation to shipbuilding.
2: Artisan, no, but I have spoken first-hand with a man who took over a new-built ship from its Turkish builders. He noticed what I did not; that the port and starboard sides are not mirror images, though drawn that way on the plans. The ship is not compromised by the differences, but is imperfect, as I can witness. The explanation given was that perfection was the sole prerogative of Allah.
3: No

Thread-drift warning:

I like the slightly similar [in that it concerns perfection] story of the chieftain building one of the forts on China's great wall. It was suggested to him that he should order extra bricks "just in case" when he had already ordered what he had calculated as the required number. He duly ordered one more brick, which can still be seen lying loose on a ledge half way up the wall of the fort.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: Leadfingers
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 07:06 PM

One Day I will get a song right !!

Subject: Folklore: Deliberate imperfections
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 06:47 PM

I heard two radio announcers chatting the other day. One of them had just made some sort of mistake, and he excused himself by saying (I'm paraphrasing here): "When Quakers make a quilt, they always deliberately make some imperfection somewhere, out of respect for God, because it's supposed to remind them that only God is perfect."

This struck me as odd because (1) I have been associating with Quakers for many years, and I have never heard them mention such a rule; (2) Quakers aren't particularly known for quilt making (Maybe the announcer was thinking of the Amish.); (3) I have heard this story before, but when I heard it, it went: "When the Navajo weave a blanket.…"

I've been Googling phrases like "deliberate imperfection" and I have found this belief, or something like it, attributed to Persian rug makers, ancient Greek sculptors, Jewish house-builders (who will not build a perfect house until the temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem), and Japanese Zen potters. Maybe there are more versions.

I suspect what we have here is an urban myth.

I would like to know:

1. Have you heard some version this story before? What ethnic group, and what art or craft were mentioned?

2. Do you know any artisan who actually follows this precept?

3. (This is a long shot, I know.) Can you cite any authoritative source, such as a reference book, ethnographic study, or other scholarly work, that attributes this belief/practice to a specific group?