Research project: Traditional Folk music

Subject: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Cristian Nicchitta
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 08:57 AM

Hello all,
          As part of my music degree i have decided to research to what extent text based representation encourages the transmission of Folk traditions. In other words, i would like to hear from folk musicians, concerning how they would go about sourcing a song... would they learn it aurally in the age old tradition... would they make use of folk collections such as those of Baring-Gould and Childe? Another area i would be interested in hearing about is in how far it is acceptable or necessary to adapt and interpret a traditional song in your own way... whether it is predominantly the words and the melody that convey the folk tradition and how important harmony is. Also some opinions on the importance of preserving folk traditions would be great.

I would be very grateful for any feedback and you can contact me on the following emaill address - [e-mail]

Thanks again

cristian nicchitta

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:14 AM

Ah, Dartington! The simple answer is ALL. I'd also be inclined to use Child, rather than Childe - more comprehensive.

I suspect different singers will give you different answers about the rest - largely because there are different motivations for performing this stuff.

Not helpful, I know, but the subject as defined in your posting is too huge for a degree discourse - I'd recommend narrowing it down - A LOT.

Good luck - and keep fighting the move to Totnes. Might be useful to meet up some time - we're at the other end of the County, but sometimes down your end. Try our website at www.umbermusic.co.uk

Tom Brown

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:17 AM

Hi Christian

Since you are at Dartingtom you are likely to have some familiarity with the material with which you plan to work.

I (as one of the resident pedants around here) would urge you to be careful and consistent with your definitions: for example you speak of "folk musicians" and you can find several of us prepared to dance a Highland Fling on the point of a needle to decide (or more likely disagree) which such musicians are "folk singers", which are "folksong singers", which are "revival singers", which are "source singers" and which are what else. Of course to those like me, singer songwriters are by definition NOT folk musicians, but there are others who think they are. There was a useful coinage I spotted the other day, but I can't remember what it was.

There are many many threads where we argue about this, and they tend to be thought of as about one category "What is Folk" - so if you look or search for some threads that might be about that you may find a large body of opinion. There will be little that agrees with anyone elase, and if there are signs of agreement they may or may not indicate an Atlantic divide.....

You may also want to compare the EFDSS with Comhaltas and/or with the Newcastle degree. For some discussion on that search for Captain Birdseye or Dick Miles.

My suspicion is that so far as the new generation (largely Newcastle graduates) insofar as they do or use traditional material, it will largely spring from written sources, but in some cases historical field recordings - but in some cases (Hares spring to mind) the amount changed may be so radical as to undermine any assertion that any part of the tradition is being preserved.

Have fun.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: RTim
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:19 AM

This is a wonderful subject, and something I would love to talk with you about face to face - but as I am currently living in the USA it would be difficult. However, my daughter - Cat Radford, works at the college and you should try and talk to her as well as looking at my web page - www.timradford.com.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:55 PM

ah,Ilearn my songs from recordings, books ,and other singers.
forexample I might hear a singer, singing a song.And think golly gosh, havent heared that in ages, remember the tune,go home and find an interesting collection of words ,and put the two together[and we have a new hybrid].
I consider nmyself a singer,and my repertoire consists of traditional material, contemporary material written in a traditional style,and very occasionally blues. http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:58 PM

Christian,

What Richard said.

Also,

If you are going to write some sort of academic paper about "folk traditions"
and if the paper is to be in some sense "scholarly"
You need to make sure your paper has the following three components in addition to all the other stuff.
1. A review of the literature - what other scholars have mean by "folk traditions" (to prove that you have done your homework)
2. A detailed explanation of what you will mean by "folk traditions" (to prove that you have attained some level of conceptual clarity about your topic)
3. Some sort of justification for your usage of the term "folk traditions" in the paper (to prove that you have actually though about the homework you've done)

Apologies, of course, if I have simply stated the obvious.

Russ (Permanent GUEST and pedant in remission)

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 03:11 PM

I can recommend some reading if you like - do you have access to a good library with loads of books? If not and you are in this area come and visit me. You can have a complete run of my collection. But be wary they are all for sale for I sell folk books, and most are tempted!!

I also agree with those who say this is too large a subject. You might look at something smaller say the relationship between (I make this one up) Broadside Ballads and records made in the what people call the folk revival of the 60's/70's. Instead of having an idea and seeking the material - a hard way to do things - see what material there is and make up what your dissertaion is from there. Much easier!!

Go to things like the Baring Gould Weekend down your way, Wren Trust also down your way and Eddie Upton at Folk South-west- all may prove helpful. Many of the books you need are on the web nowadays (Project Gutenberg is a good place to start).

There, see how helpful we all are? :-)

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 03:34 PM

Did anyone email the requestor to let him know that there's all these responses and a widening discussion available right here?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 03:20 AM

Do I detect a long, interesting and occasionally acrimonious thread opening up here; I do hope so.
Richard Bridge and Guest Russ are quite right; you are going to have to define what you mean by 'Tradition' if you are going to make a half-decent job of your project.
In my opinion, all you are going to get by asking your questions to members of this forum, is a picture of 'the revival', people who had nothing to do with a living tradition, but have come along from the outside and taken up the old songs and music. Unless Sheila Stewart, or one of the other of the miniscule number still with us avails themselves of a computer, you are not going to get a response from a traditional singer. I suggest you read through an earlier thread on this forum entitled 'What is Traditional Folk Song' and the related threads for background to this.
Unfortunately, there is very little information on the tradition, simply because the collectors never got round to asking the singers themselves. I believe that the nearest you have is 'Jeannie Robertson', James Porter's and Herschel Gower's study of the great Scots Traveller, but this falls far short of gathering enough information to give us a full picture of the tradition.
Here in Ireland the tradition lasted relatively late and the singers learned their songs mainly orally, from family members, from neighbours. Also from 'the ballads', the song sheets that were sold around the fairs and markets, mainly by Travellers, a practice which went on right into in 1950s, when records and the radio took over the role of entertaining the general population.
I suspect the answers you will get by asking forum members will be similar to those supplied so far by Captain Birdseye. We learned our songs mainly from books, records and from other revival singers. Those of us who have been involved for centuries started off with collections like A L Lloyd's and Vaughan Williams' 'The Penguin Book of English Folk Song', and MacColl's 'Singing Island' and Frank Purslow's selections from the Hammond and Gardiner collection 'Marrowbones', 'Foggy Dew'. 'Wanton Seed' and 'Constant Lovers'. In the early days we also had a wealth of recordings of real traditional singers, such as those made by the BBC, of people like Harry Cox and Sam Larner, and later the songs of Walter Pardon (arguably the three most important English singers in living memory). One of the changes that has taken place nowadays is that singers seem to me to now be learning their songs almost exclusively from other revival singers (along with the mannerisms, idiosyncrasies and accompaniments). Look through Mudcat and you'll find requests for 'Martin Carthy', or 'Kate Rusby', or 'Christie Moore' songs rather than 'Harry Cox' or 'Mary Anne Carolan' or 'Sheila Stewart' ones.
Thanks for starting this thread; I hope you get as much out of it as I think we might.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:09 AM

"Those of us who have been involved for centuries started off with collections like A L Lloyd's and Vaughan Williams' 'The Penguin Book of English Folk Song', and MacColl's 'Singing Island' and Frank Purslow's selections from the Hammond and Gardiner collection 'Marrowbones', 'Foggy Dew'. 'Wanton Seed' and 'Constant Lovers'"

Exactly so in my case Jim (being centuries old) and I'll just add also that Stephen Sedley's "The Seeds Of Love" was a staple as well for me.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:17 AM

It is surprising what you can find hidden even in your local library. At Oxford I managed to find 7 books, two of which were collections of Cecil Sharp, three by Frank Kidson, one by Lucy Broadwood and another by Roy Palmer. Some of these have interesting forwards on what the collectors did with the songs (ie editing) and some with variations in tunes and story of either the same title or different titles.

A recent treasure is Topic's Voice of the People. It is expensive to buy all 20 CDs but maybe the library could be persuaded? This is as close as many of us are going to get to the old recordings without making long journeys.

Another resource is the Bodleian Broadsides and I think folkinfo.org that 'catter Jon Freeman runs.

But yes, the replies you have had so far should get you going. WRT to some labels, there are source singers, song carriers, revivalists and singers, I guess (thinking on the hoof). Source would be part of the tradition and I doubt if many of those are left in the UK because of their age, though notable exceptions are the Copper family of Rottingdean. Song carriers are performers who have collected from source singers (like the Watersons, Shirley Collins), revivalists I guess are the people/leaders who got involved in the fifties/sixties revival and singers, well thats the rest of us.

The EFDSS at Cecil Sharp House in London has a vast archive, but it would be a long, expensive and bewildering trip. Now what would be interesting would be to get an interview with the Coppers, Martin Carthy and Shirley Collins (who has been collecting with Alan Lomax in the US?) - I'm sure all of these people would be happy to help if they had the time. Send them an email explaining what you are trying to do, they are all lovely and approachable people.

Did you get to see Folk Britannia on the telly? Lots of people thought it was flawed, but it was interesting nonetheless.

Finally, there are still gypsies who have a singing tradition. How you would go about this I don't know and what measures you would need to mind, again I don't know.

For people who are performing today, where they get their source from is not necessarily relevant but acknowledging the source is - this gives the listener an idea of where the song came from, the inspiration for doing it and the manner of doing it. It is probably also incumbent upon us to do a bit of research about the history of the song and where it came from - but hey, hours in the day and all that.

Good luck, an exciting time lies ahead. Do you play/perform yourself?

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:42 AM

I contacted the person in question.

Some great replies there!

As a piece of blatant self-advertisement - I have copies of all the books mentioned so far for sale.

Dave

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 05:53 AM

Don't be put off by an anonymous "Do I detect a long, interesting and occasionally acrimonious thread opening up here; I do hope so."

All that counts in your work is that you acknoqledge others' definitions, and clarify your own for the purposes of the dissertation - let everybody else keep arguing, thay always will.

Tom Brown

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 08:30 AM

dear JIM CARROLL,I said I learned my songs from other singers,I didnt specify that they were exclusively revival singers,.
I am happy to learn,AND TO HAVE LEARNED somgs from anyone. traditonal,OR revival.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: RTim
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 08:53 AM

Reluctantly I would like to take slight issue with Jim Carroll and what he says. (I am NOT being very critical)
The originator of this thread quite clearly says - "Folk musicians" and not "Traditional", and asks simply about how one learns songs, etc.. That should not start a debate as to what is or is not Traditional music or be an excuse for being critical of "revival" performers.
We all sing and play for different reasons, and in our performances we seldom get the opportunity to explain exactly what the music does for us, or explain our connection to each and every song, or even explain the simple joy of making music.
I my opinion all performers are great, even those whose music is not to your taste - you just don't listen to them.
However - I do think it interesting to know why someone makes the choices they do and where they look for their material, etc. And that is what the original question was about!
Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:29 AM

To confine myself to Cristian's original questions, without getting bogged down in arguments aired already on Mudcat at great length......

1. "to what extent text based representation encourages the transmission of Folk traditions...."

Text has encouraged the transmission of traditional song for hundreds of years. Printed broadsides are now accepted as having had a much greater influence on traditional singers than they were in the days when I was led to believe that the whole process was one of "word of mouth". Some of the best traditional singers kept collections of broadsides. On Fred Hamer's "Leaves of Life" collection you can hear one old singer explaining how he bought printed texts on the market place and made up his own tunes (although you might argue about the latter claim).

In terms of the Folk Revival, books like the ones Jim listed ("Marrow Bones", etc.) have been enormously influential on singers' repertoire. The key to this is accessibility. Those books were easily available once, but are now out of print (though being considered for reprint). The whole point of EFDSS reprinting new editions of The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs and selections from Cecil Sharp is to make that kind of resource generally available once again. The Child Ballads can be obtained in a reasonably priced new edition, but if you want tunes for them the place to look is in Bronson's Traditional Tunes to the Child Ballads, which is very hard to get hold of unless you have access to a specialist library. On the other had, the internet is making all kinds of interesting collections availble online, and let's not forget the Digital Tradition resource on this very site.

2. "would they learn it aurally in the age old tradition...."

If by that you mean "learn it from someone else's singing" then the only opportunity to do that (unless you're a song collector working amidst the last redoubts of traditional singing) is to steal it from someone else at your local folk club. If you want to learn a song from a *traditional* singer, and absorb at least something of their style, then there's the aforementioned Voice of the People collection and any number of CDs containing songs by the greats (Larner, Tanner, Cox, Lizzie Higgins, etc. etc.). I would guess that many professional singers use a mixture of book study and source recordings to gain new material (that's what I do, but then I have the time to do it), but a lot of the songs that get sung in folk clubs and sessions have most likely been learned from recordings of modern folk revival singers. Some of us wish that more people would dig a bit deeper!

3. "how far it is acceptable or necessary to adapt and interpret a traditional song in your own way...."

When I first got interested in traditional song the conventional view seemed to be that real traditional singers sang deadpan, with no personal expression, and that the rest of us should do the same. 'Letting the song tell its own story'. The first time I heard recordings of Sam Larner and Phil Tanner was sufficent to disabuse me of this notion. On the other hand, trying to "make the song your own" by drowning it in a hundred personal quirks risks putting yourself in front of the song, which isn't the idea at all. But whatever you do in terms of phrasing, expression or ornament represents an individual interpretation of a song, and that's before we even consider accompaniments, be they simple and understated or wildly experimental. What is "acceptable" is a subjective and ever-changing judgement, though I don't doubt all of us have our own (probably strong) ideas on the subject.

"whether it is predominantly the words and the melody that convey the folk tradition and how important harmony is...."

In terms of the kind of singers I've already mentioned, harmony was not important at all (though I have wondered whether any of them heard harmony in their heads, in the way I sometimes do even when singing unaccompanied). The Copper Family were and are a glorious exception, while the traditional village carols sung in harmony are owe much to more formal music-making. We live in a different world to Phil Tanner's, and we are exposed to an awful lot more music, whether we like it or not. The unaccompanied voice is a more difficult thing to "sell" to an audience raised on the rhythms and harmonies of the modern popular music that comes crowding in on us everywhere we go. If I stand up in a schoolroom of 8-year-olds and launch into a song, the reaction is a mixture of shock and nervous tittering - they've never experienced an adult doing something like that before, and they don't know how to respond. Anyhow, I'd say that words and melody are considerably more important than harmony, but bear in mind that both have been historically fluid. You could argue that the essence of the song tradition lies not in the words or tunes but in the stories that the old ballads tell (the same story can be told through very different lyrics) or you could just as well argue that the important thing is the style of singing, rather than the songs themselves. Or that the process of transmission and change are the things that count, over and above content. Your research will doubtless find people prepared to argue these and other standpoints to the very death.

"some opinions on the importance of preserving folk traditions would be great."

Well, I think it's important. The English, with our history of imperialism and suppression of other races, are in a rather different category historically from the Irish, the Scots, the Cajuns, the Basques, the Quebecois and all sorts of other peoples who have clung to their traditions (which can mean cuisine, clothing, language, jokes, and all kinds of stuff as well as folksongs) as a means of expressing their identity. Nonetheless I think we Anglos need to keep a sense of identity as well. As a single example: traddy-baiters always accuse us of singing songs about ploughboys with whose lives we have absolutely no affinity, but many of those old rural songs reflect a specific landscape which despite some degradation is still around us. Trying to define an English identity that isn't about empire or bulldogs or St. George or sending the foreigners home is a tricky business, but I believe that our traditions can help us realise in some small way who we actually are. And that's no bad thing in a world spinning ever faster.

Now please leave me alone so I can get back to my tax return.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:36 AM

I would say that your topic is far too broad and far too ambiguous. I would suggest that your prof. is not on the ball viv a vis research and should perhaps send you off to see a research advisor. It may save uou a lot of grief if you knew how to narrow the topic and define your terms.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:44 AM

PS Hello to Tim Radford.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:48 AM

No RTim, contemporary song is no part of the Folk Tradition. 1954 definition. That's the point. What is it that is being preserved and passed on (additionally) by printed material.

For research definition is all.

I would have thought it wise to separate folk dance and folc culture (eg corn dolly making) from music and maybe music from song.

Almost certainly it will be necessary to decide if one is speaking of England, or including Wales, Scotland, parts of Ireland or all of Ireland, and/or traveller traditions.

Then the researcher can point to the 1954 definition and the research on which it was based, and start to identify the previous and/or subsequent singers who departed from the transmission model presupposed by that definition.

That might (unlike all the silly arguemtns about horses) show that the 1954 defintion was flawed.

It leaves unaddressed how one will define folk music if that defintion is flawed, and that in turn will upset the stuff from the Oxford Dictionary of music about what modes and intervals are found in folk music.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: RTim
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:54 AM

Hello Brian - and I agree with almost everything you said and you said it all very well. Wish I had the patience to sit and write out exactly what I feel - but would rather just sing!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:57 AM

Tim, when you're filling in a tax return you use any excuse you can not to get on with it!
Cheers,
Brian

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:01 AM

me too.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Cristian
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:26 AM

First of all, thank you very much !! I am really grateful for the time and effort everyone has put into helping me, it is greatly appreciated. Secondly, i have taken on board peoples advice of narrowing down the subject for this particular project, although i intend to do more thorough research in my own time. For example, i shouldn't have used the broad term "folk traditions". I am, at this stage, only intereseted in the transmission of musical material.

As for performing myself, no i don't. I really see studying this area as a great benefit compositionally as i am very interested in assimilating some of the musical qualities i.e. modes and intervals, into my own music. Saying that i do think it is very important for my generation to show interest in our musical heritage and unfortunately i don't know that enough of us do.

One more thing, not wanting to fan the flames of the 'traditional' vs. 'revival argument. Does belonging to one of these particular schools of thought change the way you would go about sourcing, learning and adapting a song? Would musicians belong to these two distinctions be ,for example, comfortable sitting next to each other on the same bill at a folk club?

Once again thanks alot!

Cristian

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:37 AM

It's highly debateable to what extent modern musicians can be said to be part of a "folk tradition". Most of us have not grown up within a living folk tradition, which is something we've had to seek out, usually after exposure to the music from revival/non-source (whatever you want to call them) singers. In other words, for most of us our first experience of the music was already second-hand, although we may then have been inspired to go to source singers for inspiration or material.

For myself, I get songs wherever I can find them: from live singers (source or otherwise), recordings (ditto), books and now the internet.

Of course, the distinction between "source" and "revival" has become blurred: Fred Jordan was one who increased his repertoire from wherever he could, including that most traditional source of all, Martin Carthy albums.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:56 AM

.. Would musicians belong to these two distinctions be ,for example, comfortable sitting next to each other on the same bill at a folk club?
Err .. not unless you're seriously odd. Being lazy I learned most of my stuff from singarounds & sessions. Ergo, most of what I play is wrong (as in theres bound to be a pedant about who'll say so).

Kudos to Brian - that's a scholarly dissertaion, excellent sense and no less than we might expect :)

As you'll gather Cristian, this is an excellent place for free advice - Fear Not, it's not always like this in here ....

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Marje
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:13 PM

Re your question, Cristian, about "traditional vs revival" singers sitting next to each other- well, most of the singers who are described as "traditional" in the strict sense of being a "source" singer are, more or less by definition, old (or dead) and not likely to come to folk clubs; indeed, going to a folk club more more less marks you out as a revival singer at best.

The difference, as I see it, is more between, on the one hand, those who prefer to sing and listen to songs that are either traditional or that draw on the tradition (often called "revival" singers), and on the other, those who prefer more modern songs in a style that's much more similar to pop music (and more American-influenced). The first group often sing unaccompanied or with something like a concertina, whereas the second group rely heavily on guitars. (I know, I know, guys, that's a big generalisation - many trad singers also use a guitar - but I'm trying to keep it simple)

Folk clubs tend to welcome all comers and not be too fussy about the boundaries and categories, largely because many of them are struggling to survive and are anxious to appeal to as wide an audience as possible. So yes, you get people with very different values and expectations sitting together. If you want to know more about clubs in the area, PM me as I live locally - there is, for example, a new folk club about to start up in Totnes in March.

Howard (above) has made some good points about how people learn songs - all I'd add to that is that even the "source" singers were singing second-hand songs - they just happened to be the singers the early collectors got hold of. I don't consider the difference between "source" and "revival" to be that clear-cut.

Oh, and in the folk world, song is not part of "music". It's a very odd usage, but there it is - people will say, "Well, let's have a break from the music- will someone give us a song?" "Music" generally means instrumental music only.(This is in the UK. In the US they say "song" when we'd say "tune" and you may see that usage in this forum).

Marje

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:48 PM

Cristian,

For what it is worth,

In the states there are still quite a few people who are "traditional musicians" by any definition, no matter how stringent.

They are living members of still living musical traditions who have learned in traditional ways. We refer to them as the "real thing."

Some but by no means all of them are ancient. They are probably people you've never heard of: Marvin Gaster, Sheila Kay Adams amd Bobby McMillan of North Carolina, John Morris, Dwight Diller, Dave Bing, Lester McCumbers, Frank George, and Phyllis Marks of WV, Paul David Smith and J. P. Fraley of Kentucky, etc.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:02 PM

Cristian, I hope now you're getting a better idea of what those of us 'in the know' understand by "traditional" as opposed to "revival". 'Revival' singers sing traditional songs that they have learned consciously because they have developed an interest in that kind of material. 'Traditional' singers are generally understood to be those who learned the songs as a natural part of everyday life, from parents or relatives, from fellow workers or possibly in old-style pub singing sessions. Today's professional singers of traditional songs would all be considered 'revivalists', and whether we are part of an ongoing tradition, or part of a separate, self-perpetuating tradition based around folk clubs and other performance venues, or part of nothing at all, is a matter for debate. All of this is quite apart from the (sometimes overlapping) element that prefers to write songs or cover modern material.

There aren't too many traditional singers still around these days - many of the greats I heard, like Walter Pardon and the aforementioned Fred Jordan, are gone now, although collectors like John and Katie Howson are still finding singers in East Anglia and I guess there is still singing going on in some traveller communities. Incidentally, as Howard said, some of the more recent traditional singers have indeed fed on the folk revival for new material, and even going back to the days of Baring-Gould I've heard of one singer who sang a song for the Rev. B-G, was presented with a copy of "Songs of the West" by way of thank-you, and proceeded to add to his repertoire from the book. A feedback loop!

I sing traditional songs mainly because I love them and find them exciting for a whole raft of reasons too long to explain here. I also hope that by continuing to sing them I may occasionally pique the interest of younger musicians, either to want to sing the old songs themselves, or to do what you are suggesting and incorporate some of the musical or lyrical language into their own new songs. What happens beyond my generation is enirely up to the next generation, and no amount of Mudcat punditry is going to determine that.

As to whether 'traditional' and 'revival' singers could sit side by side in a folk club, well, until it lost its venue a couple of years ago we had a festival - The National Folk Festival - which encouraged precisely that - in mostly informal performance spaces. Other festivals have also booked performers from the tradition, and there are various pub sessions where tradition and revival mix. I'd be pretty confident in saying that most revival performers regard it as a privilege to be sharing songs with traditional singers (two of my most precious compliments came from Bob Copper and Fred Jordan), and certainly people like Fred - although he was a discerning listener and couldn't stand the long intros favoured by modern pros - often found plenty to enjoy in the revivalists' performances.

What goes on in folk clubs is another thing again. As Marje says, they are often very eclectic in the range of music they present. Although my own repertoire is very much based in the tradition (give or take the odd bit of blues or music hall or pop or made-up stuff), the folk club I enjoyed most was that run by Harry Boardman in Manchester where, in addition to top-notch unaccompanied singing, you would regularly hear modern political songs, Lancashire dialect material, blues, eccentric poetry, punk rock covers and God knows what else.

Now back to that tax return......

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:39 PM

.... I forgot to mention Vic and Viv Legg, fine singers in Cornwall who are certainly traditional singers as far as I'm concerned. And, Russ, one of my fondest memories of touring the US was hearing J. P. Fraley play (to a sadly small crowd) at Old Songs festival several years ago, and of sharing a stage with Dwight Diller the same weekend. As you say: "the real thing".

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: 14fret
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 06:23 PM

Get in touch with John Leonard. He knows all about it.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: SylviaN
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 05:29 AM

14fret - now that was hilarious! A joke at last. Having Brian keep mentioning his tax returns was getting depressing.

Cristian, someone you should speak to is Vic Gammon (see contact details below). Not only can he advise you on the structure of your paper, etc, he's a performer as well.

Dr Vic Gammon
Senior Lecturer in Folk & Trad Music
Email: [e-mail]
Telephone: [phone]
Address: School of Arts and Cultures
Armstrong Building
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE1 7RU

Cheers
Sylvia

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: bubblyrat
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 07:24 AM

" The English,with our history of Imperialism and suppression of other races "
            Ditto the following countries : Germany--France--Italy--Spain--Morrocco--China--Japan--Turkey--Mongolia--Greece--Russia---Portugal--Belgium--The USA !!!
             Still feeling guilty ??

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Fidjit
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 07:45 AM

Jim Carrol wrote,
Those of us who have been involved for centuries started off with collections like A L Lloyd's and Vaughan Williams' 'The Penguin Book of English Folk Song', and MacColl's 'Singing Island' and Frank Purslow's selections from the Hammond and Gardiner collection 'Marrowbones', 'Foggy Dew'. 'Wanton Seed' and 'Constant Lovers'

I would add Alfred Williams, "Folk Songs of the Upper Thames" to that list.
And as others have mentioned, lots of Topic and Leader records.

We all seem to have been there. Do we really need to go through all this again?

Think I'll wait for Dereck's book. to come out.

Chas

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 07:54 AM

Hail Rirchard - saver of BBs ankles.

The International Folk Music Council definition was flawed from the outset: it is debatable that there has been 'a community uninfluenced by popular and art music' in England for several Centuries. However, the critical part of the definition (the 3 'factors' in para 1, together with the 're-fashioning and re-creating'in para 3) focus the definition on the performer, rather than the content, and define him/her as creator rather than copyist. And for that we have to thank Douglas Kennedy.

How come Brian Peters nearly always makes such sense? However, Brian's definition of traditional singer makes Barbara & me traditional singers - which lots of people wouldn't like to contemplate - we'll leave that to other's judgement!

On another point, I can't think of a single 'traditional singer' (as defined by general concensus - who's consensus? err...) who hasn't added to their repertoire from contemporary sources (be it broadsides or some singer/songwriter who's LP they have). Given that, then CONTEXT OF PERFORMANCE becomes, again, a critical factor in defining folk music.

Once again - in response to Cristian's initial posting - make sure you've got your definition watertight for the purposes of your thesis. Everybody elses definition than become irrelevant to the work you are doing.

(Dr.)Tom Brown

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 11:57 AM

as far as im concerned, far too much emphasis is put on traditional singers or revival singers, being a good singer is the only thing that is important.and in 100 years from now, will still be the oNly thing that is important,singing is about conveying feeling,not about what badge your wearing.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: RTim
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:58 PM

My goodness me - do I really find myself agreeing with Dick Miles!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 01:15 PM

>> Still feeling guilty ?? <<

Where did I say I felt guilty? Merely explaining that the English don't have much experience of being an oppressed minority, hence perhaps less motive for cherishing their traditions than others.

To Tom:
>> Given that, then CONTEXT OF PERFORMANCE becomes, again, a critical factor in defining folk music. <<

Yes, I should have mentioned that one too.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 03:09 PM

Definitions of whether someone is traditional or revival may not be important when singing or listening to a song, but it is when discussing singing and it certainly is when writing about it.
I suggest that we would no more abandon our definitions of songs and singing than we would go into a grocers and ask for a tin of soup.
I believe that all of us have very clear definitions of what we mean by the terms we use (though we may not always agree on other's definitions), but it's hard not to notice that some of us have a tendency to claim we don't define things when we find ourselves getting the worst of a discussion.
The same argument applies to those who claim to be far too busy playing or singing to bother with definintions. It would be a very unimaginative musician whose thoughts never stray further than where to put their fingers or how hard to blow.
Jim Carroll
PS Cap'n - still trying to work out what I wrote that you disagreed with in my earlier posting on this thread - ah well!

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 05:59 PM

Years ago I heard a singer (I think it was Wizz Jones - but I may be wrong), in a Folk Club, sing a song called 'Put A Little Label On It'. The point of the song seemed to be that labelling (or, possibly, defining) things is BAD and that naming things tends to diminish them (in some undefined way - sorry, just realised what I've written!).I didn't agree with that song then - and I don't agree with it now!
My feeling is that if a thing is not named there is a risk that it will disappear before we have a chance of appreciating it. This probably happens every day to living organisms, and it is only when we have labelled them that we have any chance of saving them. If the early collectors hadn't defined traditional/folk music we might have lost it before we had a chance to appreciate and enjoy it.
Personally, I think that this 'horror' of defining/naming/categorising things is just anti-intellectualism (or, perhaps, intellectual laziness) masquerading as philosophical profundity.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 08:02 PM

Brian,you have very little time indeed to get that tax return in. Mudcat posting is displacement activity!
I remember well Harry Boardman's club - those that were part of it will never forget what a great platform it was for trying out newly-unearthed songs and talking about what we were doing about finding songs and how & why we wanted to sing them.
As for the distinctions between traditional and revival singers: I believe there may still be some traditional singers left in the forgotten corners of the UK. But, as the venues for singing traditional material disappear with piped music, big screen TV and 'live bands' taking over from informal pub sessions I reckon there will be fewer and fewer places for such singers to be heard. So there will be precious few - if any - singers learning songs in the traditional way.
If we want to keep 'traditional' song & music alive we will have to rely much more on artificial methods of transference of the tradition. So instead of aural transmission - listening to someone sing right in front of us, as in a pub or in our homes - we will use electronic transmission through recordings or paper transmission through notation and text.

There is much to be said for listening very carefully to recordings of traditional singers ( such as the wonderful selection on Voice of the People) to understand how songs were sung by the transmitters of this material. We should also understand that many of these singers were recorded in later life and the recordings may not be an accurate representation of their vocal skills in the prime of their lives.

There is also a great deal to be said for digging into the collected texts and notated material ( of which there is a huge wealth, much lying in archives waiting to be unearthed) so we can find out what was being sung by traditional singers of a hundred years ago. The variety of songs which I have discovered in my small burrowings into the archives is staggering. This is where I get most of my 'new' material now.

I firmly believe that it would be such a waste of the efforts of those dedicated collectors of last century who carefully preserved on paper what they heard being sung if their collected songs & tunes are not put back into circulation. I do not say put back into the tradition because I am convinced that the old aural/oral method of transmission is irreparably broken.

Mary

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Patrick Costello
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 10:14 PM

It sounds like you were looking for input from the UK, but I figured I'd go ahead and offer my take on this as an American folk musician.

When it comes to sourcing I'll literally use whatever I come across. Books, recordings, mainstream media and face to face encounters with other musicians. See, in order to be "traditional" there has to be some sort of context in terms of place and time because the role of tradition is to give us a sense of place, a sense of personal history and a sense of connection to our community.

Being a folk musician isn't a matter of playing a particular genre of music or anything like that. It's about taking this thing we call music and using it as a language to express ourselves. That self expression ends up incorporating a pretty diverse amount of information. Who we are as individuals comes across. How and where we learned out craft comes across. How we feel at the moment the music is being played comes across. In other words, our entire story - from our community to our individual personality ends up becoming part of the ingredient of whatever we play. If it's a Child Ballad or some top 40 pop song the overall folk process is still taking place.

I learned to play wandering the streets of Philadelphia bugging every musician I met for help figuring out the banjo and the guitar. That's my story - and as a result that is also my tradition. Twenty-some-odd years later I'm living in rural Maryland and the personal experiences I have had living here have become part of my tradition.

As a musician I can play just about anything you throw at me. Genre is a term that only means something to people who don't grasp the mechanics of music. A Child Ballad or Fergie carrying on about being "T to the A to the S T Y" are little more than different applications of the same basic concepts.

As a folk musician how I use those basic concepts is shaped by my personal experiences.

-Patrick
http://howandtao.com

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Marje
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:00 AM

I agree with Shimrod above - when people criticise "labelling", they're conveniently forgetting that every word is a label (well, nouns are anyway). If you're not going to label things, you can't really say anything useful about them. And I also agree that it's often just intellectual laziness that gives rise to that attitude.

Cristian, I think Howard's post there gives you a flavour of the difference between UK and US concepts - as you're studying in the UK, I imagine you'll prefer to stick with UK views, but it's useful to be aware of the differences between our cultures, and of course there are lots of crossover influences in both directions.

As for the oral/aural tradition being irreparably broken, Mary - don't despair, I think it carries on. I have scores of songs in my head that I only ever learned by hearing them, and I'm sure you do too. I may have written the words down at some point to help store them, and even looked up some extra verses or missing lines, but I recall many tunes (both for singing and for playing) that I've never seen written down and never heard recorded. Session tunes get passed around aurally in vast numbers - occasionally you get a request for "the dots", but much of the learning of tunes is aural. I often look up a written score and use it to refresh my memory, but I learn as much by hearing other players and singers as from printed or recorded sources.

The context of the singing and playing is, of course, different from in the past - it's more structured, and less connected with ordinary social activities in the wider community. And the extra means we have at our disposal for searching, storing and retrieving songs and tunes give us access to a vastly wider repertoire than our ancestors had - I think we're very lucky in some ways. I also agree that it's important to treasure the old recordings and written sources, as a way of enriching our understanding and interpretation of the music of our tradition.

Marje

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Alec
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 06:09 AM

For myself I agree with something Johnny Handle once said to the effect that the oral tradition is alive & well & living on the football terraces & the school playgrounds.
Though that view is probably a dissertation subject in itself.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:40 AM

That'll be because most of them cannot or will not read?

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Alec
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:41 AM

Quite possibly! :-)

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 09:03 AM

we have been unable to define tradtional music satisfactorily,on other threads.
The important point is not who is singing the song[traditional singer or revival]but how the song is being sung,This is what defines a good singer,interpretation, intonation and communication,not what the persons name is.
when there are no traditional singers for people to collect [and that time is not very far away in my opinion]then the same criteria willbe used ,as is used in other forms of music[as Ioutlined above] and we can get away from this nonsensical traditional /revival singer jargon,which is meaningless claptrap, as we cant even define what traditional is.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 12:15 PM

Re Alecc's remarks about Johnny handle saying the oral tradition was alive and well on the football terrces. I can absolutely agree with this. There is not a shadow of a doubt that, by any definition, we have here living traditional material. i was on a terrace yesterday, watching Stafford v Morecambe. The Morecambe singers, and drummers, were great, and were singing, and playing, in a style appropriate to their environment, and in a style in no way derived from any currently plugged media stuff. The drumming is particularly interesting, as it has some connection with both pop/rock rhythms, and the current fashion for streetband/sama type stuff. But it is definitely not a version of either genre, it is a creation of its own world, and absolutely traditional folk music. And anyone can go out and collect it, any Saturday afternoon.
    Morecambe won, 3-1, by the way.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 12:42 PM

excellent Greg,
Funny how no one sings at AT G.A. A. matches,only soccer or rugby.
G A A GAELIC ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION .

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:53 PM

Dick, they might be meaningless claptrap to you, but I don't see how Cristian or anyone else is going to have any hope of undertaking an academic study of the transmission of songs without understanding the concepts "tradition" and "revival". Are there such imperceptible differences in kind between Walter Pardon and Martin Carthy or Caroline Hughes and Kate Rusby that we don't require terms to define them?

There might well be no "traditional singers" (see, you find the term useful, too!) in 100 years' time, but I don't think it's too great a leap of the imagination to envisage Vic Gammon's successor on the 2107 Traditional Music Course at Newcastle, asking his/her students to prepare an essay entitled "The custodianship of English traditional song passed from the rural working class to the educated urban middle class during the period 1950 - 2010: discuss".

Yes, Alec and Greg, football chants are one of the last great citadels of the oral tradition. At Stockport County yesterday (County 2, Wycombe Wanderers 0, going up, going up, going up) there was a pleasingly wide repertoire, from 1970s favourites - suitably altered for 2007 - to songs I'd never heard before. Songs parodied included "Wild Rover", "Knees Up Mother Brown", "Oh Susanna" and "La Donna E Mobile" amongst others.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 04:07 PM

Brian Peters: interested that Oh Susanna is still in use. the old minstrel bajo type repertoire is a long time a-dying, however non-PC it has become. "Marching through Georgia" was also in evidence among the Morecambe supporters as well. As was "Annie's Song", which I particularly enjoyed ("You fill up my senses like a night out in Morecambe". The Shadows' Apache got a good mauling too.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:01 PM

Brian Peters,They are meaningless claptrap to anyone who is interested in defining good singing,as a singer that is all that concerns me.
When I make a judgement of a singer, what label they have TRADITIONAL or REVIVAL does not affect my judgement,as its said you dont judge a book by its cover.
I get the distinct impression that some folk collectors,consider revival singers to be of less importance than traditional singers regardless of the quality of singers involved.
I believe MUSIC is about PERFORMING,.
my advice to christian is dont do it,throw away your dissertation and go out and play music.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:46 PM

Captain Birdeye

Anyone who believes what you just said devalues an art form and a history of people to mere entertainment.

Shame on you.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 06:55 PM

Oops!! been away two days p[erformiong, and the thread is acting like Topsy.

Okay, Dick,

"They are meaningless claptrap to anyone who is interested in defining good singing,as a singer that is all that concerns me." - So when can we hear you doing arias?

"I get the distinct impression that some folk collectors,consider revival singers to be of less importance than traditional singers regardless of the quality of singers involved." - now there I have to agree but, of course, there may be reasons for that.

" My advice to christian is dont do it,throw away your dissertation and go out and play music." - Do I detect an anti-academic tendency here? Why shouldn't the lad want to study?

Tom

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,bill
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:32 PM

"In other words, i would like to hear from folk musicians, concerning how they would go about sourcing a song... would they learn it aurally in the age old tradition..."

My answer is yes. I use what sources I can. Being in the US I have access to some people who are part of the tradition of the music, and so learn from them aurally. There are also excellent sources, such as our Archive of Folk Culture that publish or otherwise make available recordings (See Smithsonian Folkways recordings). I use the internet primarily to check my sources and find alternative versions. I learn better by ear than by sight, just my learning style, so I lean toward various versions of aural learning techniques.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 04:53 AM

while collecting material is important,if there were nobody singing the material,there would be nothing to collect,therefore the performer is more important than the collector.
entertainment is an essential ingredient of music,to entertain, to engage an audience, to communicate ones feelings be they sad or happy,does not devalue the music.
what has good singing,got to do with [particuarly] singing arias,are you saying that opera singers are the only good singers.
many years ago[at the time I was anestablished professional] Brian Peters asked my advice about going professional,I recognised his talent and advised him to do it,Ihave always believed that while the academics have apart to play their part is not as important as that of the performer,without the performers there would be no collectors academics etc,http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 04:54 AM

Cap'n,
I don't believe you!
You have taken part in (and started) enough discussions on academic subjects on this forum to show that you are not just interested in performing. Singing (of any type) is and never has been just about performing, and we've all been beneficiaries of that fact – Child, Sharp, Bronson, Greig, Munnelly, Breathnach, Shields Wimberly, Gerould, Grainger, Carpenter – the list is endless (and very few of the aforementioned were noted as singers, dancers or musicians).
Perhaps you have been unable to define traditional music to your satisfaction – some of us have no such problem. We have failed to reach a consensus, all the more reason why we should continue discussing it.
However, if you feel that this is all claptrap, feel free not to take part.
Tom Brown,
Hello Tom.
I think your point about the IFMC definition being flawed is only partly right – rather I suggest it is in need of fine-tuning.
There certainly have been communities 'uninfluenced (or only partially influenced) by popular and art music' in England for several centuries', up to fairly recently the Travelling communities for instance. This is why their traditional music and song remained as healthy as it did for so long after the settled communities' traditions declined.
Sure, there was contact with the culture of settled communities but by and large they remained fairly isolated and unaffected by it, certainly well into the twentieth century. It was devastating to watch the walls come tumbling down (somewhere between 1973 and 1975), when the Irish Travellers in London en mass acquired portable televisions and stopped singing and telling stories virtually overnight.
Apart from the Travellers, there has also been an active resistance to outside influences from other groups.
Winterton in Norfolk was one of the places that kept itself to itself, despite it being quite close to Yarmouth. We were told that right up to WW2, if a Winterton girl was found to be courting an outsider, the local men would picket the roads to keep him away.
We were also told of the old man who walked into The Fisherman's Return, the local pub where the fishermen would meet every Saturday night to sing. He saw one of the 'new-fangled' wirelesses on a shelf behind the bar, and on enquiring, was told that it brought news and music all the way from London. He reached across with his stick and pulled it to the floor, smashing it to pieces – it was never replaced.
There are plenty of examples from elsewhere. Here in Ireland in the forties there was a tremendous resistance to the attempts by church and state to deliberately destroy traditional dancing and music and replace it with the dance halls. There was, and still is, an opposition to the imposition of the Comhaltas style of dancing (not to mention Riverdance). There was also resistance from many musicians to the influence the records from America (Coleman, Morrison etc.) was having on local styles.
Fine-tuning!
You are right Tom about singers adding to their repertoire from books and broadsides (the records came relatively later). In Ireland the Travellers played an active (almost exclusive) part in the distribution of the ballad sheets. I found it interesting that the man we recorded who sold these, distinguished the singing of these songs in order to sell them from that which was done at home, which he described as 'fireside singing'. He, other Travellers (and certainly Walter Pardon) always regarded traditional and non-traditional songs as being different, though they may not have used those terms.
On the revival-traditional question, I agree totally with Mary Humphrey's very articulate statement.
Hi Mary; have you done any work on the Carpenter Collection yet?
Talking about revival and traditional singers is just as valid as referring to classical, opera, heavy metal, hip-hop, scat, blues, baritone, tenor – different types, different learning techniques, different backgrounds, different inputs and experiences.
If we are going to make any sense of the tradition we need to be clear on our references. As much I have enjoyed the singing of Tom and Barbara Brown in the past, I will never regard them as traditional singers – no way a criticism, just a definition.
I sometimes feel that the fact that we have borrowed our songs and music from those who have been generous enough to pass it on to us, might, just might mean that we will respect it that much more, and similarly pass it on to others relatively undamaged (and not hide behind the excuse that we are part of the tradition) – a thought!
Regarding the sourcing of songs, the Roud Index is probably the greatest contribution to finding and comparing versions, certainly in my lifetime.
Richard Bridge.
I agree totally with the sentiments of your posting, though it is worth remembering that the songs would not have survived if they hadn't been entertaining; perhaps 'solely entertainment' is a better term.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 05:31 AM

Hi Jim,
Nice one! 'Rejected' and 'uninfluenced' are not mutually exclusive of course. I bow to superior expertise, cetainly on the travellers, but perhaps we're talking about degrees (that's 'degrees of' rather than academic degrees :-) ). If you want to e-mail us your address (via umbermusic.co.uk)I can now send you a copy of something I promised you years ago.
Hi Dick,
I think you missed the point about arias! If you don't intend singing them, why not? Or perhaps you are saying there is more than just 'good/bad singing'; perhaps there is thing called 'folk'? I just knew I shouldn't have tried irony.
Hi Brian,
Or (as a purely academic exercise, of course,) compare these two statements.
"The important point is not who is singing the song but how the song is being sung" Dic Miles (above)
" You can't damage a song by singing it. The only way you can damage the song is by not singing it". Martin Carthy (TV)

Tom

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 07:37 AM

jim,I am more interested in performing,I consider performing more important,FURTHERMORE I dont have to have an audience to enjoy music,I get a kick out of doing it,I often sit down and play/sing for my own enjoyment.
is that quite clear to everybody ,while I might take part in academic discussions ,I consider it of secondary IMPORTANCE.,for example this morning I sat down and practised for forty minutes before turning the computer on.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 02:42 PM

Cap'n,
That's your choice - just as we have made ours.
Nobody - to my knowlege, has told you you shouldn't perform so please don't tell people that they should give up reasearch and sing or play instead.
Taken to its logical conclusion, you wouldn't have anything to sing or play if people had followed that advice in the past.
Jim Carroll
PS Tom,
Could you confirm your e-mail address - that one keeps bouncing.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: BB
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 03:13 PM

Hello Jim,

E-mail us through the website at www.umbermusic.co.uk . Sorry, I tried to do a link, but it doesn't seem to be working properly - don't know why, as I've managed it before. Never was very good at these things. Or you could PM me with your e-mail address - I think you can do so even though you're not signed up.

Oh, and Tom did say that it was Brian's definition of a traditional singer - not ours!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Patrick Costello
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 03:24 PM

I think the performing thing, the research thing, the playing thing and even the teaching all come down to a matter of balance.

Part of the overall craft of being a folk musician requires the ability to interact with an audience, digging into the past for insight and the ability to pass on the skill-set to a new generation of players.

If you go too far or not far enough in any one aspect of the craft everything kind of falls apart.

-Patrick

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:20 PM

JIM CARROLL without the music, collectors would be redundant.
If the music hadnt been there,there would have been no collectors.
I have the right to give advice,christian is free to ignore my advice,thats freedom of speech,.
I honestly believe you learn more,by singing and playing and going out and meeting other musicians /singers,than by reading treatises by academics,Iam entitled to that opinion,other people are entitled to disagree,Tom Brown gave CRISTIAN different advice ,Cristian can make up his own mind.
I am still entitled to give an opinion,without you telling me that I shouldnt do so.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:35 PM

Cap'n
I partly agree with your first statement, but would qualify that with 'it depends on who the musician is'. You are not entitled to describe what many of us do and think and work at as 'claptrap', and to advise somebody who has asked for advice on something they are writing 'DON'T' strikes me as being somewhat arrogant and certainly unhelpful.
You may learn more by playing (I only have your word for that), but I have met plenty of people who play and sing a great deal and know nothing - they usually punctuate their conversation with 'that's claptrap'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Declan
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:50 PM

Christian,

As you may have gathered there are some people around here who get very excited whenever the word Tradition is mentioned. Maybe you could use a word other than the 'T' word, or else define it and let us know what definition you are going to use in your paper. Then someone might even get around to answering your questions.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:55 PM

So, where do we pot people like the Rankin Family, Natalie MacMaster and otherrs who did grow up in the tradition but who are now very mainstream ? It sems to me that some of the definitions given above are rather narrow and do not allow for the fact that many people, though clearly not many contributors here, still do come from a along line of very traditional musicians.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 02:09 PM

Jim,I have been involved with music for 45 years,and while I dont claim to know everything, and freely admit i,m still learning new things,but to insinuate that I know nothing,is LAUGHABLE.
so lets beg to differ,.
what I would advise cristian to do when he has sparetime from his dissertation,is to seek out musicians and singers, playing the kind of music he is studying and have a good listen,and talk to the musicians,I think he will find they know a lot more than nothing,and may be very helpful to him and his project.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: BB
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:03 PM

I don't think anyone would disagree regarding your last piece of advice to Cristian, Dick, but that is very different from "don't do it, throw away your dissertation and go out and play music"! (Your words, 28th Jan.)

I think he was trying to seek out musicians and singers when he first posted on Mudcat, but hopefully he will also go out and find 'live' ones as well.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:23 PM

I will go and write out 100 times.
I mustnt tell cristian to throw away his dissertation and go and play music.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 05:26 PM

Dick,
You're an old friend and I valued your advice all those years ago - I've certainly never regretted choosing a musical career. But I do find useful those concepts you called "claptrap". And I don't think you really believe that we could have done without all those collectors thanks to whose efforts you and I learned so much of our material.

Anonymous Guest:
My definition of "traditional" is quite wide enough to include Natalie MacMaster and the Rankins. They come from a geographically isolated culture that nurtures a lively, historically continuous and mainstream tradition, in the way that England (which is what I and our original questioner were talking about) sadly does not.

Declan:
I attempted to answer Cristian's original questions point by point. Read the thread.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:01 PM

Let's all do the Birdy Song.
"Tweet Tweet Tweet Tweet: (and shake your bum)".

People have cultures. Those cultures spring from history and belief. The ethos of "the singer not the song" condemns to rootlessness. A chameleon stands for nothing. A straw in the wind is not a wall.

What is done is at least as important as how well it is done. A dog maybe an excellent Pointer but it will not win a class as a Weimaraner. A dog has to have type as well as be sound.

And for heaven's sake learn to use a shift lock. It's no harder to work than a lavatory seat.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:31 AM

'I will go and write out 100 times.
I mustnt tell cristian to throw away his dissertation and go and play music.'
I suggest you not only write the quote above out 100, but you should read it that many times - and memorise it.
You're doing it again - why do you always take everything somebody writes as refering to you? There must be a name for this syndrome!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:35 AM

The problem is in the title,I may have a definition of traditional folk music,but it is probably different from cristians tutor,.
CRISTIAN is to be marked on his dissertation.[by whom],and what qualification or knowledge does his tutor have.
what is his tutors definition of traditional folk music[does it include the songs sung on football terraces].
those of you, who argue that music shouldnt be competitive or be given marks,should also be against a dissertation,on something that, we here, have not been able to reach a consenus on.
to write a dissertation on a subject that cant be adequately defined,and then to be marked on it devalues the point of examinations, and does not make sense.
Jim I defined the tradtional/ revival singer description as claptrap,I never mentioned anybodys work.
In every other form of music,people are appraised on how they perform,
not on what process they used to learn the music .
that in my opinion is the correct way to appraise all music.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:45 AM

Jim Carroll ,BB adressed the remark to me,I replied with a joke, Iagree, I didnt phrase the remark very well[we can all make mistakes].

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:46 AM

"In every other form of music,people are appraised on how they perform"

Complete bolleaux (if, as it seems, it implies "solely on how they perform"). In every other form of music (and how do you know it is a form or an "other form" unless there is a defintion, a history, and an analysis?) there are music degrees (for example B. Mus) that depend in a large part on theory and only in a lesser part upon performance skills.

What we have here is an inverted snobbery that values ignorance because it is ignorance. In general, knowledge and understanding improves people, and knowledge and understanding of a field of endeavour improves the practice of that endeavour.

It is also a most extraordinary approach for a person who is largely known as a performer of traditional songs and other music - how would one know it was traditional unless there had been an analysis?

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Tradsinger
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:19 AM

Can I bring us back on track. Christian's original question was to do with how songs are transmitted from one person to another. Let me shed a little light on this from my years of collecting from source singers.

I spent many hours in the company of the late Wiggy Smith, singing, drinking and recording his songs. Wiggy was a local gypsy, and couldn't read. Where did Wiggy learn his songs? - well, many orally from friends and family, and others from commercial recordings of such diverse artists as Jimmy Rogers, George Formby and Norman Wisdom. Does that mean that some of his reportoire was more 'traditional' than others? Well, yes, no or maybe. Of the songs that he learnt orally and therefore traditionally from his family, it is probable that somewhere in their history, they (the songs, not the family) were given a leg up by being printed on a broadside, so how different is that from a singer of today learning a song from a book?

Yet Wiggy is rightly regarded as a 'traditional/source' singer, as he was singing independently of the folk scene/revival. The traditional/revival distinction is a very grey area. I know a lot of singers in the folk scene who have learnt folk songs from their families or otherwise outside of the revival.

Another thought - does my time spent with Wiggy make me a 'traditional' singer by association? Well, the answer is no, as there was a certain academic interest in my recording Wiggy, with my conscious knowledge of the totality of the folk scene. If, on the other hand, one of his sons had said 'Dad, I want to learn your songs. Sing them onto this tape.' Then the scene would be different. The son would probably be learning the songs to sing in the family or friends context, not in the folk scene. (Ah but what if his motive was to sing them at the folk club..?)

When I first started collecting, I never used to ask a singer where he/she learnt a song, as I was just happy to get the song down on tape. Now I always ask, and get a variety of replies, ranging from 'I learnt it from my great-grandfather' to 'I learnt the tune from a Vaughan Williams symphony and then found the words in a book'. Many traditional singers have learnt songs in exactly the same way as revival singers, by hearing a song, asking the singer for the words and going away and learn it like that. Scan Tester in Sussex learnt 'The Lakes of Cool Finn' in this way,not by hearing it many times from friends or family.

All this goes to show that oral transmission is a very complex business, very much bound up with context and motivation. WIth today's communications, we can learn songs by fax, answerphone, etc. I'm sure that more and more songs are now being passed on by mobile phone recording. Is that traditional or not? (discuss)

Good luck with the dissertation.

Gwilym (Tradsinger)

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:54 AM

If Cristian is still following this thread (and I fear his eyes may have glazed over by now) he may be wondering how his original questions - most of which were focussed quite tightly on learning, disseminating and interpretating old material - have led to the present slanging match. It's quite true someone in his situation needs to have a good grasp of what 'tradition' means (and the conflicting ideas about that) but that wasn't his central concern.

>> to write a dissertation on a subject that cant be adequately defined,and then to be marked on it devalues the point of examinations <<

Even if I agreed that 'tradition' can't be adequately defined (there may be arguments about it but that doesn't mean there's no definition), that wouldn't be an argument against researching it. Quite the opposite, I'd say. If Cristian's research leads him to think beyond Baring-Gould and Child and consider football chants then his time won't have been wasted. And I'm sure he's planning to dig a bit deeper than Mudcat.

>> In every other form of music,people are appraised on how they perform, not on what process they used to learn the music <<

But we're talking about 'analysis' here, not 'appraisal'. There are certainly afficionados out there who prefer to listen to 'traditional' rather than 'revival' performers of English folk song, and they've every right to make that choice. As Tom suggested above, there *are* stylistic differences between 'revival' and 'traditional' performance which - though blurred at the edges - might well lead one to either preference. For every Rod Stradling there are a hundred Nic Jones, June Tabor and Kate Rusby fans who like their traditional songs served up in a certain way and might well dismiss Sam Larner as a "croaky old bloke". Each to their own.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 05:04 AM

A valuable dispatch from the coal-face, thanks, Tradsinger.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 08:09 AM

rod stradling, nic jones, june tabor ,kate rusby are all revival performers.
I listen to both traditional and revival performers and appreciate both.
however there are mediocre traditonal singers as well as good ones,the same applies to revival singers.
I would rather listen to a good revival singer than a mediocre tradional singer,and a good traditional singer to a mediocre revival singer.
good traditional style or traditional singing does not have to be learned by actually learning the song from a traditional singer in the flesh,.
that has been where collectors with field recordings and videos,have played an important part,.
the advantage of learning a song directly from a traditional singer
is that you can hopefully locate the song in its environment, and possibly get background information first hand,although a THOROUGH collector like will undoubtedly supply that information in his notes.
it would undoubtedly be helpful to Cristian to meet both traditional and revival singers and musicians.Martin Carthy,Roy Harris are equally important as Kitty Hayes or Chris Droney.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 08:52 AM

>> rod stradling, nic jones, june tabor ,kate rusby are all revival performers. <<

Maybe I didn't make myself clear: Rod Stradling runs the Musical Traditions website devoted to traditional singing and music-making, and he has a strong personal preference for that kind of music. He would be at the other end of the scale from, say, a Kate Rusby fan. Our questioner might benefit from a visit to his site: http://www.mustrad.org.uk/

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 09:28 AM

Yes, its a very good site.
on the subject of mobile phone recordings,only last night,I played a polka,For a banjo pupil,on to his mobile phone, so he could get the air of it,
in fact I find this way of teaching very useful.
I Dont care whether he has learned it by a traditional process ,as long as he learns it and gets pleasure from the music.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 11:35 AM

Cristian mentions preserving folk traditions,continuing would be better terminology.
TRADITIONS evolve,they dont remain static,without alteration.Padstow hobby hoss[and the MERRYMAKING ]is a case in point,.
preserved has several different meanings,but it has connotations of something that is locked up in a museum.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 11:57 AM

>> rod stradling, nic jones, june tabor ,kate rusby are all revival performers. <<


If analysis is a waste of time, how do you know?

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 12:25 PM

I never said analysis was a waste of time,please read what I said AGAIN.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 01:02 PM

I would be quite interested to know whether Brian Peters succeeded in getting his tax return filled in , and also how much he is having to pay.

Traditional singers should be tax-exempt imo.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 01:05 PM

In Ireland artists and musicians are,thanks to Charles Haughey.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 02:14 PM

Yes, Murray, the tax return was in a day ahead of deadline, which is why I've been back in the fray on this thread. My tax liability is, however, confidential - to divulge it would be to give away the dread secret of the pittance I earn as a folk musician. Perhaps you could write to Gordon Brown with your idea about exemption.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:06 PM

"as far as im concerned, far too much emphasis is put on traditional singers or revival singers, being a good singer is the only thing that is important.and in 100 years from now, will still be the oNly thing that is important,singing is about conveying feeling,not about what badge your wearing.http://www.dickmiles.com"

"we can get away from this nonsensical traditional /revival singer jargon,which is meaningless claptrap, as we cant even define what traditional is.http://www.dickmiles.com"

"They are meaningless claptrap to anyone who is interested in defining good singing,as a singer that is all that concerns me.
When I make a judgement of a singer, what label they have TRADITIONAL or REVIVAL does not affect my judgement,as its said you dont judge a book by its cover".

If it ain't what you mean, don't say it.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: BB
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:26 PM

Cristian states that *he* has decided to research..., etc., not that he has been told to research...

It isn't actually essential for a tutor or whoever marks the dissertation to know the subject inside out - many years ago when I was studying music, my final dissertation had to be something about music between 1800 and 1900, I think. Seeing that most of the collectors were doing the rounds in the early 1900s, it seemed logical to me that the songs therefore existed between the stated dates, so mine was on, if I remember rightly, 'The Character and Characteristics of Folk Song'. The tutor who marked it said that it was very interesting, and that he learnt a lot! I doubt that folk song, in the sense that Sharp, Lloyd, etc. talked about it, had ever entered his consciousness! But he was looking at how it was put together academically, and that, presumably, is what Cristian's tutor is going to be looking for primarily.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:32 PM

Richard Bridge,yes I do mean it,music is the most important thing in my life.
I did not say analysis was not important,that is how you choose to interpret my words.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 05:02 PM

"When I use a word, it means exactly what I intend it to mean, it's a matter of who is to be the master, no more, no less."

Alice in Wonderland.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 08:06 PM

Hi Cristian

         " As part of my music degree i have decided to research to what extent text based representation encourages the transmission of Folk traditions."

Sam Hinton, the folklorist and performer from San Diego made an interesting point. The ballad Barbara Allen was out of circulation until it was revived in print.

" In other words, i would like to hear from folk musicians, concerning how they would go about sourcing a song... "

I think that the more you are exposed to the actual music, the more you understand what it is in the song when you see it in print. There is a musical tradition to be followed and absorbed in some way. I try to go to the root of the song as much as I am able. Sometimes through the history although that has to be cross-referenced as there are a lot of vague ideas that may not be correct. but my inclination is to find someone who has an understanding as a performer and absorb their approach...but not imitate it exactly.



" Another area i would be interested in hearing about is in how far it is acceptable or necessary to adapt and interpret a traditional song in your own way..."

The idea of "acceptable" would require an opinionated criteria which can be supported by some academics....but the word doesn't fit well in folk music.


"whether it is predominantly the words and the melody that convey the folk tradition and how important harmony is."

A song requires all of these things. Harmony is a problem for many because some like it simple and others can tolerate more complexity. The melody can be a vehicle for a story which by itself may be uneventful. A great tune can have a bowlderized lyric that's incomprehensible. A great simple tune can be as important as a complicated melody.
Answer, it depends.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 05:42 AM

cristian,traditional folk music,has been passed on in many different ways,.
Patrick Kelly[west clare fiddler]made the famous remark that the worst thing that happened to the clare fiddle style,were the recordings of sligo fiddler Micheal Coleman on 78 RPM.,
Traditional music performed by revival singers/musicians and traditional singers /musicians has been passed on by the radio[80 years] ,television[60 years]recordings[at least80years]mobile phones[5 years].
very few musician[be they traditional or revival] in the western world,have not learned a song/ tune,from one of these sources.
Fred Jordan originally had a repertoire,that he learned from his family,he then expanded his repertoire from the folk revival.
Bob Blake[at first thought to be a tradional singer] ,a fine singer,was evasive about his sources,and it would appear he was actually a revival singer.,Peter Kennedy[Clearly thought this mattered]but was prepared to dub on his own revival work on to existing traditional recordings.
Peter Kennedy was one of the major collectors of the twentieth century,but when he saw fit,he dubbed on his own melodeon,to traditional recordings he had collected,yet was not prepared to collect from a fine revival singer, because he was pretending to be a traditional singer,this is what prompted my earlier remarks about the nonsense of tradional /revival labels,and my remark about quality being important.
quality should also be important when it comes to a dissertation,but to assess quality/knowledge of the subject,the tutor /lecturer,should know at least as much as the student.
If a student writes a dissertation about house construction,it would be expected that the tutor understood pythagoras theorem[to enable the house to be built square].
BB wrote a dissertation on the Character and Charecteristics of folk song,She admits her tutor knew less than her on the subject,to my mind that devalues the status of her degree.
my advice is to seek out the following people, who should be able to advise you properly.Pete Seeger,Doc rowe,Vic Gammon,Frank Hamilton,Martin Carthy,Nicolas Carolan,Packie Byrne,louis killeen,RoyHarris

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 06:06 AM

Dick,

my advice is to seek out the following people, who should be able to advise you properly.Pete Seeger,Doc rowe,Vic Gammon,Frank Hamilton,Martin Carthy,Nicolas Carolan,Packie Byrne,louis killeen,RoyHarris

How do you know these people you are recommending have time to help a student? A lot of them would if they have time - but a lot of them don't have time. Pete Seeger is a very old man and should definitely left alone.

One of the others you mention I know is extremely busy writing a book. One already has enough students of his own thank you. I know one of the others is extremely busy too.

And whilst your opinion can always be expressed freely - it doesn't mean to say you are right.

On this occasion Christian, take no notice......but you knew that already I suspect.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 06:21 AM

your right folkie dave ,I should have said providing they are prepared to help.APOLOGIES
BB on reflection I would like to rephrase,.
That to my mind that devalues the status of degrees,apologies. not your degree.
knowing you reasonably well, i,m sure your degree was well written and that you deserved your degree.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 06:39 AM

Dick I accept your gracious apology - but even that is not quite right.

I am suggesting the student doesn't even contact them.

Most of the people you mention are either old or busy or both.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 07:25 AM

yes, your right,I was trying to be helpful,Ishouldnt have suggested it.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Dave Hunt
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 09:06 AM

Folkiedave said - 'How do you know these people you are recommending have time to help a student? A lot of them would if they have time - but a lot of them don't have time. Pete Seeger is a very old man and should definitely left alone'

And Packie Byrne is 90 on the 18th Feb!
Dave Hunt

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 01:30 PM

Aside and thread drift.

Packie is 'lucky to be alive' and I confess it was me and three friends I lived with that nearly killed him.

He stayed with us years ago - when I lived in Hull - and after the folk club we were having a laugh and a drink, and Packie began to tell us all sorts of stories about in particular his cattle smuggling days but other items he took across the border. Those who have spent time with him will know the stuff I mean.

"And" he said "what do you lads do for a living", pausing to take a swig of his drink.

We took great delight in telling him we were all customs officers!!

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:17 PM

Long may packie continue ! I have a hoard of fond memories of him over the years !

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: BB
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:52 PM

I understand what you're saying, Dick, but I don't believe that you are necessarily correct. Many academics when marking degree dissertations are looking at the academic rigour with which they are researched and presented, rather than the actual content - this can be deduced from the arguments put forward, the extent of the bibliography, all sorts of things, within a general subject framework - we don't know exactly what department Cristian is part of. My tutors knew sufficent about music generally to know whether what I said made sense, and this may well be true of the tutors within Cristian's college - in fact, as it's Dartington, they almost undoubtedly do.

Thanks for the PM, by the way - no problem.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:54 PM

Cap'n wrote,
'Peter Kennedy was one of the major collectors of the twentieth century,but when he saw fit,he dubbed on his own melodeon,to traditional recordings he had collected,yet was not prepared to collect from a fine revival singer, because he was pretending to be a traditional singer,this is what prompted my earlier remarks about the nonsense of tradional /revival labels,and my remark about quality being important.'
Cap'n,
Don't wish to add to your present problems, but your posting is half digested gibberish.
Peter Kennedy had his students play accompaniments to some of the songs he collected, these are what he dubbed on to the recordings.
He did not, to my knowledge, claim to be a traditional singer - I don't think I ever heard him sing - did he?
He did not 'collect' from revival singers (I thought you didn't believe there were such things!) because his job was to collect from traditional singers,as was Lomax's, Mike Yates' Charles Parker's, Philip Donnellan's, Pat Mackenzies and mine, and all the other collectors who have chosen to do such work.
I think you would do well to heed that age-old advice - when you're in a hole, stop digging!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 03:37 PM

Jim,If he encouraged his students to add music to traditional recordings,he was showing a lack of respect to not only the material he had collected, but to the singers he had recorded,particuarly as he did it without their permission.
I never said he claimed to be a traditional singer,I said that he thought Bob Blake SINGING was not worth collecting,and that his decision was not based on quality,but because he was a revivalist rather than a genuine traditional singer,
yet he desecrated some of the traditional material he collected with inappropriate over dubbing.
If the traditonal process is that important,why encourage students to make innappropriate revivalist additions.
it beggars belief,and this fom one of the major collectors of the twentieth century.
Jim Carroll,he did collect a song from Alan Lomax[REVIVAL SINGER]Im a rambler and a gambler..FACT.
I never said that revival singers didnt exist.I said something else.
I advise you to read my posts correctly.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 11:55 PM

If, Dick, you read other peoples' posts with a little more care, you would not waste so much time and space repeating what Jim rightly descibed as 'half-digested gibberish' a little earlier.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 04:54 AM

JIM CARROLL said he hoped to have an occasionally acrimonious debate,I would like to have a debate that is not acrimonious.,Can we keep it that way.
Peter Kennedy[States that he had over 200 recordings by Graeme Miles]not a traditional singer.
Dick and Sue miles[NOT TRADITIONAL] AND illegally recorded without permission,from a BBC radio folk on2 programme
Jim Mageaan AND Johnny collins,[Revival singers].
Mabsant[revival singers].
there are certain rules on mudcat,I am trying to stick to these.
Malcolm and Jim you,r entitled to your opinions, as I am.
AS Dave Eyre said I might not be RIGHT, but then you may not be either.
What I have said in this post are FACTS,if you dont believe me go to Peter Kennedys website.
Peter Kennedy was a major collector of the twentieth century.
Fred Jordan [both traditional and revival]I cant think of a song I didnt enjoy hearing him sing,[Because of the way he sang]and it never worried me, if it was from his original repertoire.,or acquired from the folk revival,my judgement was made on his performance.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 08:03 AM

cristian, asks how acceptable or necessary is it to adapt a trdional song in your own way.
the singer BobRoberts is an interesting case,he had an unusual version of, While Gamekeepers lie Sleeping,I suspect he touched it up and added bits himself,he is generally regarded as a traditional singer,.
and probably wrote the monologue, The Oily rigs[so he was performing contemporary material as well],yet he wasnt dismissed as a singer songwriter[he wrote swell your nets full]a modern song written in the traditional idiom.
I myself have added a verse of my own making to Whip jamboree, a traditonal song.
The song THREE SCORE AND TEN, a composed song[mid 1880,s]has survived to this day and is still sung,but it has acquired and also lost verses.
so it would seem that the alteration of songs, has been going on for quite a long time.
I saw recently, that Alan Lomax,had his problems with academics,so im in good company.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: stormalong
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 10:28 AM

I've just noticed this thread and regretfully don't have time at the moment to take onboard all the very obviously interesting previous postings, so I'll just relate my own approach to sourcing songs.

I'm a revivalist singer of traditional songs and carry about 50, mostly learnt from other revival singers of the late 60s/early 70s such as A L Lloyd, Peter Bellamy, Shirley Collins and Ann Briggs etc. They were my introduction to folk music (via Prog Rock and Folk Rock) and have remained my reference point, along with the source singers to which they were close.

The tunes were almost all learnt from recordings as I'm only just learning to play an instrument from written music. The words came either from these sources or from a few staple publications such as the 'Penguin Book of English Folk Songs'. I think only two of my songs came entirely from books and I had to use Noteworthy Composer to capture the tunes.

Richard

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 09:57 AM

Cap'n,
This thread has been turned by you (I would guess, in an effort to divert our attention away from a couple of foot-in mouths – or should that be feet in mouth) into a critique of Peter Kennedy, a subject you appeared to have had little knowledge of several threads ago – now you appear to have become a born-again Kennedy expert! Nobody disputes his behaviour towards revival and traditional singers, what is questionable is the crass suggestion that he aspired to being recognised as a traditional singer; he was neither traditional (nor a singer to my knowledge).
Thanks to your efforts, we have now arrived at a debate on singing versus research - as if the two were separable.
Surely any singers worth their salt research as many different versions of the songs they wish to sing as are available to them in order to become aware of all the alternatives.
I believe that the learning of a song falls into a number of stages (not necessarily in the following order).
You are attracted to a song, say by the tune, the story, by the singer you heard it from, from having to find a song on a specific subject for a performance, even by a few lines that catch your fancy – a whole number of reasons.
You learn the words and tune (and accompaniment if necessary) and begin to practice it. You tackle any pitch, tone, breathing, articulation or any other technical problems.
You examine the structure of the text to see if there is anything which will help your performance of it, (Irish songs, for instance, make great use of lyrical imagery and poetry, and have a great knack with internal rhyming as a humourous device).
You dig a little deeper into the background of the song; the circumstances surrounding it, does it have any historical or social implications, are there any archaic or vernacular references you don't understand, are there any folklore references; in other words, you get to know the song inside out.
You decide what you feel about the song: how you relate to it, do you empathise with the characters or sympathise with their situation. In other words, you make the song your own.
Through this work, you not only help yourself to sing the song and your audience to enjoy it, but you also give it a better chance to remain in your repertoire than if you had treated it as merely a set of words and a tune.
ALL THIS TAKES RESEARCH.
In my opinion, any singer who doesn't carry out some preliminary work on a song, other than just learning it, is quite likely to be a very shallow, one-dimensional performer (before you do a King Lear on us - no Cap'n, I'm not referring to you – I've never heard you sing) .
Ballad scholar Lowrie C. Wimblerly, in his introduction to his 'Folklore in The English And Scottish Ballads' wrote: "An American Indian Sun-Dance or an Australian Corroboree is an exciting spectacle for the uninitiated, but for one who understands something of the culture whence it springs it is a hundred fold more heart-moving".
By approaching songs this way, singing (and listening) can be a permanent cerebral and emotional, as well as enjoyable experience.
You need to remember that many of us involved in research have a slight advantage over those who consider themselves 'just singers'. Most researchers I know came to the songs as singers – been there, done that, decided to take it further: (Vic Gammon, George Deacon, A.L. Lloyd, Fintan Vallely, Pádraigín Ní Uallacháin, Peter Hall, Frank Harte; all recognised as both researchers and singers). I notice singer Tom Brown has "Dr in front of his name – congratulations Tom, I assume it's music related?
Earlier you gave us your revival- traditional comparisons and said you would rather have a good revival singer than a poor traditional one (I can't help noticing that you often tell us who are good singers, but you never say why they are good – most of the ones you mention certainly don't ring any of my bells).
Even the most asthmatic, croaky traditional singer I've ever listened to brings something to a song that I seldom, if ever I get from even the best of our revival singers; a commitment, an involvement with his or her song which was obtained by a lifetime of listening and singing.
Phil Tanner brought a joyous energy to his singing which outdid any singer I have ever heard a fraction of his age.
Sam Larner gives you the impression that when he sang it was like hearing the song for the first time, even though you might have listened to it (and he may have sung it) a thousand times. He also managed to give the impression that he was singing just to YOU.
Harry Cox's identification with the characters in his songs and their situations often moved a listener to anger or tears. Listen to his bitter comments on 'Betsy The Serving' Maid (about a servant who is transported to America by the parents of the son of the house because the he falls in love with her) – "and that's what the buggers thought of us". Or Dillard Chandler, after singing 'Little Mattie Groves' describing what he'd have done to Lord Barnard if he'd been there. Get that level of involvement into your singing and you know your songs are working for you, and almost certainly for your audience.
Mary Humphreys was right; the older singers may be an acquired taste, but once you have acquired it, it will give you something invaluable for your own singing, something you will never get from a revival singer.
I wrote that I enjoy controversy and debate; I do not enjoy the type of divisive harangue you have managed to turn this into.
Jim Carroll
PS Your somewhat martyr-like bemoaning of your treatment at the hands of us 'academics' fell somewhat flat by your comparing yourself to Alan Lomax; Lomax WAS an academic himself.
PPS I am not!

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: curmudgeon
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 11:35 AM

Very astute observations, Jim, on learning songs. That is certainly the approach I have tried to take since I first delved onto the world of traditional song. Upon acquiring a new collection, whether in print or recorded, the first thing I do, after skimming the contents, is to sit back and read the notes so as to have a better understanding of the songs.

Since most of us who are singers did not grow up in the midst of a specific musical tradition, it is essential to both learn the song and learn about the song so as to be able to share that background when performing.

Please continue sharing your thoughts and experience with the rest of us, and maybe consider bcoming a member so as to allow for PMs -- Tom Hall

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 01:38 PM

I can verify, as a bookseller, that many people do research from printed sources. And the great bookbuyers/singers are the ones that do a lot of research.

The Kimberley book Jim just mentioned was on my latest list - sold - definitely academic, but loads of interesting and worthwhile comments. People who stick to song books miss a lot. Sorry about the prices folks........

A large percentage of what we call traditional songs of course are derived from broadsides, and I believe I read somewhere that Harry Cox had a big collection.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 02:51 PM

JIM,Nowhere in my posts have I said Peter Kennedy was a traditional singer,you owe me an apology.
I talked about dubbing on of material to existing traditional recordings,this was a reference to a post by Fred Mcormick[thread reflections Peter Kennedy ]   ,18 sep 06,where he said Kennedy issued recordings of traditional singers Phoebe Smith and Joe Heaney with Unauthorised Dubbing..
on a video about AlanLomax, Peggy Seeger says [probably my most upsetting experiences,with him was when he was showing his work on Cantimetrics to the american folklore society in Philadelphia.
He gave an impassioned talk and they [the academics]tore him to ribbons,because he made some sweeping generalisations you could make exceptions to,.
he was devastated because this was where he wanted to be,he wanted his work validated by the experts].
to quote Pete Seeger.I asked my nephew an ethno musicologist at the Smithsonian institute,why is it that not everybody agrees with Alan,he replied well he makes leaps of intuition that he cant prove.
PeteSeeger said I would trust Alans intuiton rather than someone elses proof.
so he may have been an academic but he was devastsated by their traetment of him.
eveybody is entitled to their preferences music wise,and you may prefer traditional singers to revival singers,personally I would rather listen to Tony Rose than to Gordon Hall, Charlie Stringer,Ted Chaplin,.http://www.dickmiles.com Jim youcanvisit this for free,and hear my singing.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 06:26 PM

Alan Lomax must be accorded great respect for his contribution in the popularization of American folk music...as well as other places. His intuition for folk music was extraordinary and could find wonderful traditional performers and give them a platform.

His big problem came in that his scholarship was limited by his little musical knowledge.
He knew the world of his collecting but not the big picture. The point I make is that he could find traditional talent but that there is an overlapping from folk to art music that is sometimes hard to separate. It depends on the material as well as the performance.

Cantrometrics (sp?) was a noble idea but a flawed one. Why? Because it doesn't consider dynamics, interpretation, individuality of the performer, overlapping styles and leads to a host of generalizations about the music and the people who performed it. I think its value lies in the continuity of the music. Singing styles can be traced to some degree from early
forms to later more complex forms showing similar patterns graphically. But it needs to be considered as an important tool to understanding folk music.

Alan was an important figure for his passion, hard work in elevating the appreciation for folk music and influencing other folklorists and ethnomusicologists. No one person can know everything about a given subject and academicians are right to question Alan's ideas.

I would like to say that I think that the contributions of his sister Bess Lomax Hawes are equally important to Alan's. She is extremely knowledgeable about folk music on many different levels and is a good musician on top of it.

With respect to doing research on a paper, there are prominent folklorists and musicologists to read and study. Ken Goldstein of Penn U., Archie Green (Only a Miner) is a classic folksong book, Jean Ritchie is highly knowledgeable and a traditional source, Jean Thomas, Bascom Lamar Lunsford, Dorothy Scarborough,Sam Hinton, Charles Seeger ...these are mostly Anglo-American sources but there are many important Afro-American sources as well. Zora Neale Hurston as an example .(I've just mentioned the tip of the iceberg).

One caveat....Folklore and folkmusic scholarship is not rocket science and is prone to error. Academic folklore study runs the danger of being folklore itself. Ya' gotta' keep digging and you may never find the complete mother-lode.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 04:06 AM

CRISTIAN asked a question how important is harmony.       I mentioned Peter Kennedy,because he believed it was o k to add [harmony/music]to existing traditional recordings,so he has a relevance as he was a major twentieth century collector.
Cecil Sharp also added harmony to his arrangements for folk songs in schools.
I would agree with frank hamilton it depends,most of us find it acceptable that the Coppers sang in harmony,but may or may not find Sharps arrangements acceptable,and probably dont find Kennedys additions acceptable.
some people[ Chris Roche] of the Shanty Crew dont find singing shanties in harmony acceptable[because he argues it is not authentic]his argument as I understand it,Is that these songs should be sung as they were,without harmony.
   I met peter Kennedy only once,I found him a charming man and feel that overall his contribution was a positive one,.
I have never claimed to be an expert on Peter Kennedy,in fact most of the information, I have provided is easily accessible on the internet.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 04:18 AM

There can be little point in slavishly reproducing "the original" (if that can be found) version of a folk song (or any other).. Tape decks and CD payers can do that. If you are to perform a folk song, then it is better to bring something of yourself to it.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 07:37 AM

RICHARD BRIDGE, I agree with you.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 08:17 AM

Good heavens! But still think it is better to know the songs origins and milieu, I had lots of fun finding out about Reynardine before deciding to adapt the Fairport Convention adaptation that uses the well known allegedly mixolydian Sussex melody.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 11:28 AM

If anyone is puzzled by Richard's word "allegedly" the article to which he may be referring is here.

A good example of the academic's art.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 02:20 PM

sO ALLEGEDLY LLOYD,wasnt too bothered with categories concerning Reynardine .

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 02:52 PM

Dick, I do find it a bit confusing when you use capital letters and brackets for no discernible reason. Whilst it is not compulsory to stick to the norms of communication it helps the process when you do.

Now what on earth did that last post mean?

Dave

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 04:09 PM

If LLOYD wrote Reynardine,and passed it off as traditional, rather than self composed,it could appear; that he wasnt too bothered with categorising this particular song, correctly.
It has been alleged that the melody for the Abbotts Bromley horn dance, was written by Pat Shaw,It does not matter to me ,neither does it affect my enjoyment of the music, that it has been categorised in correctly.
I have always enjoyed, The Recruited Collier.
my enjoyment of the song would not be altered if I found out A LLOYD had composed or partly composed it

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 04:38 PM

What an interesting article. No mention of the theory that Renaudie was deprecated as a libertine as well as an outlaw in France - possibly hence "brought up in Venus train" (which come render "trail" although I prefer "train" "Venus Trail" being as I understand it being a then current euphemism for satyriasis.

Actually, I was referring to the assertion that mixolydian and the other standard modes have distinct characteristics when (if normalised to "C") they are all tunes in C that simply mostly use notes other than the root as the home.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 05:35 PM

Tell me Dick, let's just assume that it is a song based on a fragment plus a load of broadsides put together by Bert Lloyd, as the article suggests......how would you categorise it?

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 01:46 PM

a miscellany,a mixture of various kinds.
a Curates Egg,But that brings an element of subjectivity to the matter
as songs go,I prefer Tam linn OR Thomas The Rhymer,In my opinion they have more interesting storylines.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 02:44 PM

There appears to be no evidence whatever that Lloyd 'wrote Reynardine and passed it off as traditional' though he certainly did claim it to be traditional. Bert certainly did catergorise his songs, though he was well known for taking liberties with them.
In this particular case, with a couple of slight variations, Bert's version sticks fairly closely to the printed and traditional texts.
His notes to it on 'First Person' were somewhat ambiguous, though he did appear to support the idea that it was a supernatural song, a view held by several collectors. Helen Creighton lists it as a supernatural song and in a note to the version in her 'Maritime Folk Songs' quotes her singer, Mr Freeman Young of East Pepeswick as saying 'Rinordine is supposed to be a magic feller'. Herbert Hughes in his 'Irish Country Songs' says he found a version where Reynardine turns into a fox.
There is nothing wrong with writing, re-writing or adapting songs Cap'n; the problem is when you make false or inaccurate claims on your adaptations.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 03:04 PM

Interesting you should say that Dick.

Child - of whom on previous threads you were a great fan, has nine versions of Tam Lin No 39) and three versions of Thomas the Rhymer(No 37).

How do you choose which one to sing out of nine versions and three versions?

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 01:59 PM

I was just re-reading Jim Carroll's post of Feb 3rd. A very interesting post, with all kinds of excellent advice about choosing your song, analysing its structure and getting inside it. Jim, I can understand why you suggest singers might want to "dig a little deeper into the background of the song" and to consider what you list as the historical or social implications and the archaic, vernacular or folklore references. That's what I try to do and what many good folk revival performers do. However, this seems pretty much at odds with the way traditional singers went about it. I heartily agree with your praise of Tanner, Larner and Cox for their "commitment and involvement", but I doubt that they or their ilk were thumbing through the pages of L. C. Wimberly to find out the archaic background to their songs. (I claim no exhaustive knowledge of Wimberly, but I have looked up references to particular ballads there, and my impression was that some at least of the analysis is pretty conjectural - please do tell me if this is not the case).

Even if the ballads are indeed filled with folkloric references that we in the 21st century can scarcely grasp, did they mean any more for a 20th century traditional singer than they do for us? Was Cyril Poacher much concerned with the "circle magic" of "The Broomfield Hill" when he led the riotous choruses of "Green Broom" in the Blaxhall Ship? Did the Coppers need to know the history of wit-combat ballads to enjoy "Hey Ho, Sing Ivy?" The garbled ballad lyrics and incomplete fragments collected from some traditional singers suggest to me that they weren't too concerned with getting every detail in place, even though a general sense of story might survive.

I raise this because it seems to me that self-consciousness is one of the factors separating traditional from rival singers. Tanner et al did indeed get inside their songs through "a lifetime of listening and singing", but that's a very different process from combing the volumes of Child for the desired combination of stanzas, or cherry-picking a score of tunes in Bronson. In seeking archaic and mysterious subtexts for songs (a great temptation, I freely admit), aren't we laying ourselves open to precisely the kind of romanticisation that has had every revival performer and floor singer from here to kingdom come introduce "Reynardine" with remarks about werewolves and the supernatural? Bert Lloyd may indeed have "stuck closely to the traditional texts", but substituting the single word "teeth" for "eyes" was quite enough to set every fantasist's juices flowing, and I suspect he realised that very well.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 01:12 PM

an answer to one of cristians points,a highly respected folklorist/ singer A.lloyd altered texts of traditional songs,see Jim Carrolls post.
in my experience traditional performers,have learned a song /tune often because they liked it . James Kingston a traditional fiddler, who I played with many times,had in his repertoire,Dashing away with the smoothing iron ,bluebell polka, mcleods reel, the blackbird,st patricks day,job of journey work,fermoy lasses,stack oif barley,.to him they were all tunes he liked,the origins of dashing away[he didnt know and didnt care about]likewise bluebell polka,categories to him as a traditional performer,were not important,what was important were whether people would like what he played and how he played,so there were inclusion in his repertoire of peices like The Minstrel Boy.
so as a TRADITIONAL PERFORMER[he learned all his music aurally]he had no television,only a wireless. but would have Putting on the Style[lonnie donegan] in his repertoire because people would have asked him for it[it was popular]the fact it was modern didnt prevent him playing it.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 01:55 PM

Hey Captain stop typing with fish fingers! Your messages are unreadable.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 01:09 PM

Brian,
Sorry for not responding – a brief stop in Galway Hospital.
I don't know if Cyril Poacher was aware of the 'circle magic' of Broomfield Hill; I do know Walter Pardon was – also the 'witches' number, nine'; we have him on tape talking about both. He acquired the information, along with the song, from his Uncle Billy, though he could easily have got it from his extensive reading habits, mainly Dickens, Hardy and other Victorian and Edwardian novelists.
Neither do I know if "the Coppers needed to know the history of wit-combat ballads to enjoy "Hey Ho, Sing Ivy", but maybe the question should be, "if they did know, would it have made any difference to their singing (or appreciation) of it?" It seems to have been a significant factor at one time, otherwise it wouldn't have been there in the first place – or maybe it is all a figment of some academic's imagination!
I have already pointed out the traditional singers who regarded Reynardine as supernatural, and I could give you examples of others we have recorded (a North Clare singer gave us 3 verses of Reynardine along with the information that he was able to change into an animal), and I could go on forever about how some of our storytellers regarded the fairies!
One of our problems in assessing what traditional singers knew or didn't know is that by the time collectors got round to documenting the tradition, it had largely fallen into decline and much of the significance of the old references had declined or disappeared with it, leaving what apparently were incomprehensible nonsenses. This was compounded by the fact that very few of the recordists actually attempted to collect anything more than the songs, so we don't really know what the singers thought of them anyway.
You write, "the garbled ballad lyrics and incomplete fragments collected from some traditional singers suggest to me that they weren't too concerned with getting every detail in place, even though a general sense of story might survive".
While I go along to an extent with your point, I wonder how much of this can be put down to a disinterest on the singers' part, and how much to the deterioration of the tradition. It has been our experience that the 'big' singers we recorded were anxious to give us articulate versions, or at the very least, would tell us when the songs were incomplete.
However, as you rightly point out, we are not traditional singers and we have much of this information at our disposal, should we choose to use it to inform our singing. I think your 'self-consciousness' point is an excellent one.
If, as I believe, we are not part of the tradition, do we repeat what we have obtained from a dying (or dead) tradition uncritically, or do we present it at its best? Do we make do with a broken-down version of a previously excellent ballad or do we 'cherry-pick'? Personally, I have (or had, when I was singing) no problem with the latter; I want people to hear the songs in the best condition, not as broken-down, if interesting, relics.
I think this is what I admired most about MacColl and Lloyd; their ability to give the kiss-of-life to songs and ballads on their last legs, though I was extremely uncomfortable with the claims Bert often made for some of his re-makes.
One of the reasons I am so adamant about distinguishing between traditional and revival singers is that I believe the privilege performers have of borrowing from the tradition brings with it the responsibility of displaying that tradition at its best, looking after it so people coming to it in the future can appreciate it in all its beauty as well as in all its cultural and historical significance.
I think the modern singer of traditional material is faced with a number of problems that have to be solved before the songs can work fully; problems like: does the 'Burning Thames' reference in The Grey Cock refer to the belief that the dead found it difficult to cross running water, or is it a powerful piece of poetic imagery which makes no narrative sense?
Or, was the conversation Willie has with the river in Clyde's Water a real conversation or was it, as has been suggested, the type of exchange an irate motorist might have with his car when if it fails to start?
I can still remember the difference made to my appreciation of the ballad 'Tiftie's Annie' when I realised that the 'bewitched' accusation made against Andrew Lammie had nothing to do with being 'bothered and bewildered' but was an accusation of his having used witchcraft to win Annie, and that his visit to Edinburgh was in fact to a witchcraft tribunal to answer the charges.
I don't know if any of this type of information is of any use to modern singers; I believe that should be entirely their decision, but one made on the basis of having considered all the alternatives and being aware of everything on offer. I don't accept the 'I just want to sing' argument; to me, that smacks too much of the 'I've never read a book in my life and it never did me any harm' attitude. By all means reject the old references and implications and replace them with new ones, but do so on the basis of having considered all the options. For me, a major part of the pleasure of singing and listening was finding out – but that's me.
I have to say I have never had any problems with Wimberly's 'Folklore….'. Sure it was written in the 1920s when much of the understanding of folklore was tainted by Sir J.G. Frazer's romanticism, but having said that, it still stands for me as a magnificent and extremely useful piece of research on the ballads, which I believe has never been surpassed, and its main asset is it is a very enjoyable read. I don't think it is a book you can dip into easily, but needs to be read right through at least once before it can be of any great use.
As usual, I have gone on far too long, so I'll leave it there.
Jim Carroll
PS A number of people have suggested that I become a member of this forum – the truth is, I don't know how to. When I first took part, I believed I had signed up; I chose a name (which I have now forgotten), and I posted, but appeared as 'guest'.
I have since realised that I don't know how to post as a member under my chosen name (which, as I say, I have forgotten). Still grappling with modern communication I'm afraid, would appreciate some help.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 01:39 PM

Did I mention that I have often wondered whether Reynardine was actually about the awakening of the female libido, with the "teeth" line being a reference to the Freudian fear (Freudian fears, of course were only articulated by Freud, and predate his naming of them) of vagina dentata?

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Logon
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 02:01 PM

Jim,

Go to the top right hand corner of any Mudcat page, then click on Quick Links. Click on Log In and you'll be asked whether you're a new user. Register and away you go.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 02:59 PM

Jim:
No need to apologise for length - that was just the kind of thing I was looking for. Personally I'm as fascinated by the background and ancient references of (particularly) the old ballads as you are, I'm just conscious of the danger of folk revival singers with academic inclinations getting too bound up with the romance and mystery, while ignoring the earthy and sometime rumbustious approaches of "the folk" to this kind of stuff. I'm certainly not saying that traditional singers were mere vessels for songs they hardly understood or whose deeper meanings they didn't care about. I didn't know Walter Pardon personally as you did, but I did realise he was well-read and cared deeply for his songs. I asked my question having witnessed revivalist recreations of songs and of traditional customs which, whilst atmospheric and impressive, have lost entirely the spirit of where they came from.

I'm interested in your comments on "Reynardine"; they are not inconsistent with the mention in Winick's article that an Irish informant in 1904 believed the character to be a fairy and shape-shifter. Did your North Clare singer specifically mention the fox as an example of Mr. R's alter ego? Either way, the article convinces me!

Sometimes it's satisfying to cherry-pick - but at other times that degenerate remnant can seem like a small gem in its own right. But yes, indeed, the tradition should always be displayed at its best.

I will take the time to read Wimberly in full when I can, and give him another chance. Too bad Folkiedave has sold his copy......

On one of the Mudcat 'Grey Cock' threads it's suggested that "burning Thames" is a lyrical corruption. Powerful imagery, though. Likewise, some might say of Cyril Poacher singing "when my bones lie smouldering" in "The Bonny Bunch Of Roses", that he'd misheard or mis-remembered the more conventional "mouldering". Others might say he'd made the image much more vivid, by having Young Bonaparte imagine a violent and fiery death for himself.

Not being a Mudcat member myself (sheer laziness about filling in online forms) I can't help you with that. And I've yet to encounter vagina dentata, so no comment there either.

This last point is off-topic, but since you are (I hope) still following this thread, Jim, I have a question relating to your recording of Bill Cassidy singing "Pretty Polly" (AKA "Outlandish Knight") on "From Puck to Appleby". I think it's a great performance, and I particularly like the unusual ornamentation - it's one of my favourite peices of traditional singing, in fact. But when I played the recording at a ballad workshop, two participants (who were generally pretty knowledgable about traditional style) dismissed it as a poorly-executed attempt at sean-nos style. What do you think of it?

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 03:49 PM

So if Reynardine was a shape shifter to an animal other than a fox why the name Reynardine? Does the use of Reynard as a name for a fox pre or post date the song?

Robin

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:22 AM

Richard,
Agree with you about the dangers of becoming a singing text-book. I feel that all singing should be a mixture of involvement, understanding, and technique.
Replaced words
Mishearing or substituting words by older singers can be a bonus sometimes; have always loved Fred Jordan's Outlandish Knight who came "Alluding to me".
Walter Pardon
Walter was special; we have hours of him talking on tape. We were hoping to put transcriptions up on MT at one time, along with his notebooks, but.........
Hopefully we'll find another source to make them available, along with his notebooks.
Cherry picking
I think that, for a singer, editing and reconstucting songs is unavoidable sometimes, but it should be done with discretion. I would hate to hear somebody singing a full text of 'Bonny James Campbell' (unless they had found a complete version, of course).
Reynardine
The singer, Austin Flanagan, never specified an animal. It was one of the few flying visits we ever paid to singers, we always tried to spend enough time to talk, but didn't manage it on that occasion.
Herbert Hughes, editor of 'Irish Country Songs' heard a version in the 1930s where Reynardine was a fox.
Would be interested in the details of the article you refer to.
Bill Cassidy.
Bill is a superb singer with no outside influences whatever; one of the problems we had was he drank heavily and it was difficult to get him sober enough. The recordings we used on 'Puck' were made in the back of a car in a side street in Harrow after the pubs closed; it was our 6th attempt at Pretty Polly. We asked Peggy Seeger to transcribe some tunes for us at one time; she managed them all except Bill's Pretty Polly and Biscayo; which she found too complex.
He learned all of his songs from his family; his father was a superb storyteller. You can hear his father and other family members on the CD 'Whisht' (Listen) which was issued by the Traveller Group 'Pavvie Point a couple of years ago.
As far as we know, Bill is on a site in Cardiff (or maybe Swansea).
Thanks to all for help in logging in; will try it when I wake up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:47 AM

Just to add another traditional singer mis-hearing songs at least in part to their betterment. Billy Mills used to sing the "Christmas Tree" at Dungworth and always sang "....over the reefs and the drifts of snow......" instead of "roofs". I prefer reefs even though it is almost tautology.

I have a whole book on Reynardine, since I introduced it into the conversation here - I'll take a look see if I can find it and see what it says.

On Wimberley - I have had a number of copies. There is a low cost Dover publications copy - around 1965 -which ought to be around £15 - £22.00 a copy.

Try Alibris.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:01 AM

Jim,
With all due respect to Richard Bridge, I think it was me, not him, who was worried about becoming a "singing text book" (although I didn't rise to such a vivid metaphor).

There's a link to Steve Winick's "Reynardine" article in Folkiedave's post to this thread at 11.28 on Feb 4th.

Fascinating to hear more about the background of "Pretty Polly". A couple of questions: did Bill Cassidy's sobriety or otherwise affect his delivery of the song? I'm thinking particularly about the pacing, and the improvisational nature of the ornaments. And were the truncated verses, where the he altered the tune (e.g. "Get you down, get you down") a consistent feature of his performance of this song - to me, it's another instance where an "imperfection" in the singer's recollection of the text actually enhances the drama.

So Bill Cassidy is still alive....... when I first heard that recording of him it sounded like something from another aeon, another world. Thanks for bringing him to my ears. And if anyone reading this is wondering what we are talking about, go and buy "From Puck to Appleby" and find out!

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 09:28 AM

Brian;
Sorry about the mix-up with names – funny week.
Bill Cassidy slowed his singing down when he had been drinking; his ornamentation remained the same (but slower), and his texts never altered. He tended to slur his words slightly.
We were introduced to 'Little' Bill (sometimes nicknamed 'The Dynamo From Glynn' after the title of one of his favourite songs), by his brother-in law, 'Pop's' Johnny Connors, a somewhat larger-than-life character who was the first Traveller we recorded in 1973. Our early work with Travellers was covered by a rather naïve article I wrote for the FSJ in 1975.
We had been recording Johnny one evening at Shepherd's Bush, and were having a couple of pints when he suggested we drive to Hayes, to the west of London, to meet Bill.
We met up with him and a crowd of Travellers in a pub, had another couple of drinks and went back to a site adjacent to one of the runways at Heathrow Airport (a field referred to by the Travellers as 'The Watersplash')
Sprawled out on the ground under a huge full moon, (probably made larger by the amount we had drunk), we spent the next couple of hours listening to magnificent singing from Johnny, Bill and other singers, to the accompaniment of planes taking off every few minutes. Everybody was incredibly friendly towards us, with the exception of one large man who was obviously not happy. 'Pop's' Johnny, who had noticed the situation, came over and said, "You'll be wanting to record Paddy now". Paddy obliged with 'Roses of Heidelberg' and 'You Will Remember Vienna'. We then became the best of friends, and remained so throughout the years we knew Paddy, which was just as well really as he turned out to be not only a fine light-opera singer, but also a renowned champion bare fist boxer.
I have to say that apart from this hiccup we never had any problems with the Travellers we met.
The last we heard of 'Little' Bill was a few years ago when he appeared in a TV documentary about Travellers made by American collector Alen McWeeney entitled 'Traveller'. At that time Bill was in Cardiff, but we know he alternates between there and Swansea,
The work done by McWeeney and his wife Artelia Court can be found in an excellent collection of songs, stories and interviews in a book entitled 'Puck of the Droms', edited by Ms Court (Univ. of California Press). This includes work done with members of the Cassidy family (Bill would have been too young at the time).
I have mentioned Alen McWeeney's CD 'Whisht' which is entirely made up of recordings of the Cassidy family – well worth getting from Pavee Point.
Thanks for the positive feedback on 'Puck' – it's nice to know somebody is listening.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 01:59 PM

Thanks again, Jim, for more great detail about that collecting trip. I'll seek out "Whisht".