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Where'd We Get Spirituals(closed)
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Subject: Where'd We Get Spirituals We Know Today? From: wysiwyg Date: 25 Jan 07 - 11:07 AM This thread is part of the African-American Spirituals Permathread project at Mudcat. It's not a permathread itself, but I may lift and edit some posts from this thread into that permathread. I am NOT asking for specific bibliographic information-- book lists-- or specific sources. We already have those. I'm looking for the general categories from which one has gleaned some small part of the thousands of songs that slaves in the US slavery era indicate were created, on the spot, as a routine part of daily life in work, play, and religious life. 1. One place I got the spirituals I sing has been from the shared memories of African Americans whose recent ancestors (grandmothers, great-aunts) passed along songs they remembered from their earlier lives. These songs have sometimes been passed along the chain of memory entirely in sound-- have never had their texts or musical notation written down until they landed here at Mudcat as a transcription effort from a recording. 2. Another place I have gotten quite a few has been from recordings by African American operatic singers who have learned the songs from sheet music created by African American composers/arrangers.... usually, as I understand the provenance record, songs these composers or arrangers have recalled from sources such as I describe in 1, above. When talking to one such artist a couple of years ago, I was surprised and discomfited to realize that in a way, I knew more about the spirituals heritage than did the very talented, expressive African American man to whom I was speaking. The folk process had ended before he got to it-- his whole basis for the material was note-perfect learning from sheet music, with piano accompaniment. The generations intervening between his childhood, and slavery times, had stopped passing on the old music. (I have now had this interesting and awkward experience several times with other people.) 3. Sheet music created as transcriptions of songs collected in the field during and/or shortly after the slavery period, when a few white folks realized there was music of artistic and/or financial value in what they'd had an opportunity to hear (such as the Allen Slave Songs body of material). These are anologous to 4, below. 4. Field recordings of remembered material (see 1 above), a generation or more after slavery times, such as the Lomax material at the Library of Congress which consists of recordings and written notes from their visits with individuals in the southern states. 5. Hymnal sheet music based on any of the above. 6. When tunes, whole songs, lyrics, or fragments find their way back into the folk process by dint of folkies :~) and you pick up one you can further folk-process yourself, with or without a known connection to their possible origin as spirituals. 7. When tunes, whole songs, lyrics, or fragments are found to be alive and well in children's rhymes, games, playsongs, or jump-rope chants, though their possible origin as spirituals may no longer be connected to the transmission. 8. Texts, tunes, modes, or structures in blues (country blues and/or urban/electric blues). 9. Gospel music of any time or sub-genre where a text or tune can be traced back to relationship with spirituals. 10. Oldtime, early-country, or cowboy songs where the modality may have shifted to the major scale, but the text, tune pattern, etc. can be traced back to relationship with spirituals..... where the folk process has been parallel to the folk process of an authentic spirituals-sounding approach but is no longer bound my the melodic or form conventions of that genre (but you can always put it back to the minor mode and verse pattern). 11. Minstrel songs poking "fun" at black folk (by white or African American composers and/or performers) that may have been based on a specific spiritual. 12. How could I forget recordings of early barbershop quartets that standardized harmonies formerly improvised in spirituals sung during slave times. 13. Dance music.... (need more information) 14. Preaching, particularly pentecostal-style preaching, where what had been a sung spiritual is now used in a singsong/testifying tone to deliver a whole lyric or fragment within or at the beginning or end of a sermon. I have heard this in southern Black church recordings as well as White. 15. Parodies where the original text is gone or adapted but the modality and structure remain, from which a spiritual can be deduced/rewritten. 16. Folkmusic books and recordings where songs that originated as spirituals are later attributed as "traditional." =============== What these modes of transmission have in common is that a folk process has been underway in some form or another, and that at some point a "definitive" version of some specific songs came to be widely accepted as "the right way" to do them. From that point on, the folk process has stopped or slowed so that some songs have become frozen into today's culture without encouraging the genre's original creativity to continue forward in time. Your comments? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Where'd We Get Spirituals We Know Today? From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 07 - 05:52 PM If you look at the repertoire of the Fisk Jubilee Singers, I think you'll find that an amazing number were introduced by them. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Where'd We Get Spirituals We Know Today? From: wysiwyg Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:05 PM Yes, Joe. But I am NOT asking for specific sources. I'm looking for the general categories and modes of transmission. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Where'd We Get Spirituals We Know Today? From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:24 PM Shitfire, woman - the Fisk Jubilee Singers are a category in and of themselves. They went all over the U.S., doing concerts of spirituals for people who hadn't heard spirituals ever before in their lives. Their mode of transmission was oral, I believe, and the category was "sung." Perhaps it shouldn't be up to you and your sidekick Azizi to attempt to control so closely what people post. Click here for examples. Some really nice examples here (click), too. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Where'd We Get Spirituals We Know Today? From: katlaughing Date: 25 Jan 07 - 07:28 PM you and your sidekick Azizi Ouch, Joe... |
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Subject: RE: Where'd We Get Spirituals We Know Today? From: wysiwyg Date: 25 Jan 07 - 07:43 PM Perhaps it shouldn't be up to you and your sidekick Azizi to attempt to control so closely what people post. Joe, is that the kind of post you want to stand in perpetuity? Did you read the opening pararaphs of this thread? Have you notm, in the past, invited me to start "feeder" threads (your term) for the permathread so thepermathread doesn;t get too bulky to load? Fisk is covered by one of the categories already posted. Fisk is mentioned at the very top of the permathread. Fisk is mentioned in several hundred threads about specific songs. Fisk is well known. Nobody is dissing or dismissing Fisk. BTW they are not a category of their own-- it was not the only school with a choir doing spirituals in that time. The topic proposed was broader than that. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Where'd We Get Spirituals We Know Today? From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 07 - 08:59 PM Perhaps the music of New Orleans is already incorporated in what's been treated. A lot ot musical sharing and development took place there. |
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Subject: RE: Where'd We Get Spirituals We Know Today? From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 07 - 09:02 PM
We were talking about Spirituals, weren't we? Now, for me, most of the spirituals I know myself came down to us through the Fisk Jubilee Singers. Their influence on the proliferation of spirituals to the general public was truly remarkable. Yes, as Q says, there were others, but the Fisk Singers were so influential that I think they merit a category all to themselves. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Where'd We Get Spirituals We Know Today? From: wysiwyg Date: 25 Jan 07 - 09:49 PM OK, Joe, I've been thinking even after you slammed me above (which you are continuing to do), and here you go: 17. Choral performances organized and presented by Black schools and colleges where songs originating in work settings were standardized (often including harmonies added to originally-solo melodoies for public (white) (paying) audiences. Songbook transcriptions of same; recordings of same in various media as time went on and technology made possible. ---------- There are other categories suggested by others' contributions in this thread (and thank you very much), that I'll give some continued thought to. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Where'd We Get Spirituals We Know Today? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:34 PM Do we need essays in Permathreads at Mudcat? I am beginning to think not. The Spirituals Permathread, to me, should be: 1. List and index of spirituals. Bibliography (Of course never complete) 2. Links to spirituals and variants posted at Mudcat (inc. notes on singers and discography, chords, etc.). Discussion, speculation, argument is fine in the normal threads. We all do it. Such material in Permathreads, however, is a step too far; it cannot be given proper peer review and could mislead. |
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Subject: RE: Where'd We Get Spirituals We Know Today? From: ridge plucker Date: 26 Jan 07 - 06:53 AM Susan, I'm really into the blues both the very early stuff (Texas blues at the moment) and the later stuff. You mention that you have found a lot from talking with people. Where are you doing your research? I have lived in Tioga county for a long time and can count on one hand the number of African American families. It is really clear just how few families there are when we host fresh air kids for the summer and you get stared at by the town folks everywhere you go. If there is a source of this music in our county that would be wonderful. These perma threads must be a huge amount of work for you. I would imagine you have little time for anything between this and your 100 miles a week swimming routine. Just thought I would let you know that the perma threads are hard to find when you use the search function. If someone is going to go through all this trouble it would be better if there was a clear and concise database that can be searched. If that is the case please send me in that direction. But to sort through endless instructions from you to pull out little pieces of information to be honest is a huge pain in the ass. Maybe you should have your own website that way you would not have to redirect people all the time and make it just how you want it. It would also be a benefit to mudcat because it would cut down on the waste of their bandwidth. You could call it www.theworldaccordingtosusan.com All joking aside, these perma threads are hard to find and search. If the people in charge want these threads to be a resource then I would suggest making them a little easier to find. Maybe a place on the main page for a link to them. Not telling anyone what to do just a suggestion. Happy pickin, Pete |
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Subject: RE: Where'd We Get Spirituals We Know Today? From: Alba Date: 26 Jan 07 - 08:19 AM Why so nasty ridgepicker..? It isn't anyone on the Mudcat's fault that you are technically challenged when it comes to finding Permathread information! It certainly is not WYSIWYG's problem either. Seems you got a personal dig in towards WYSIWYG while you were at it! Why? Don't bother answering that you sound like a person with grudge. Get over yourself. Some people just can't resist the urge to mean, you obviously enjoyed directing your bile towards this particular Member of the Mudcat Community. Cruelty and resentment are not admirable traits. Your ignorant remarks could have been PMd. Note to self: Avoid RPs posts like the plague in the future. |
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Subject: RE: Where'd We Get Spirituals We Know Today? From: Alba Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:03 AM ..and some people might not even think about Mudcat admin role here and only wonder about some people's agendas when posting to this thread. |
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Subject: RE: Where'd We Get Spirituals We Know Today? From: Alba Date: 26 Jan 07 - 02:15 PM I actually think I have contributed to the topic GUEST but no-one knows if you have. I frankly couldn't care less if you did. You look but you don't see. By the way take a look in the help section: There is a faq there you might want to read. it's under this heading : Anonymous Posting Prohibited 26-Jan-07 |
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Subject: RE: Where'd We Get Spirituals We Know Today? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 26 Jan 07 - 02:44 PM The HELP section states that anonymous posting will be watched and controlled (posts by Joe 07Jan07-26Jan07), not prohibited. The 'prohibited' was an inadvertent overstatement (at this time, at least), I think. Comment- facetious, sniping posts contribute nothing. I agree control is necessary. Unfortunate that it wastes the time of Joe as well as serious posters. Haven't looked at either the FAQ or Help for some time, so thanks, Alba, for noting that there are additions and/or changes. I think the FAQ should be just that. Couldn't all those discussion posts from Mudcat members be placed in a separate thread? Or at least in a subsection? |
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Subject: RE: Where'd We Get Spirituals We Know Today? From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:52 PM OK, this was a thread about Spirituals. I posted a message about spirituals, and Wizzy didn't like it, and I responded to her disapproval. That seemed to give the anonymous guests a reason to come in and try to stir things up. Their messages have been deleted. Yes, Anonymous posting is prohibited. The FAQ directs posters to use a consistent posting name. We may leave a few anonymous posts undeleted here and there, for a variety of reasons. Now, let's talk about spirituals. You'll find the posts having to do with Spirituals here. Posts on any other topic will be deleted from the new thread, and this thread has been closed.. -Joe Offer- |
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