Lyr Add: Roots (Show of Hands)

Subject: Lyr Add: ROOTS (Steve Knightley)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:16 PM

So...do like it or not? Here are the lyrics and below is the Myspace link to Show of Hands site, where you can hear part of the song:

'ROOTS' by Steve Knightley.

"Now it's been twenty-five years or more
I've roamed this land from shore to shore
From Tyne to Tamar, Severn to Thames
From moor to vale, from peak to fen
Played in cafes and pubs and bars
I've stood in the street with my old guitar
But I'd be richer than all the rest
If I had a pound for each request
For 'Duelling Banjos' 'American Pie'
Its enough to make you cry
'Rule Britannia' or 'Swing Low'
Are they the only songs the English know?

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
They're never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots - they need roots

After the speeches when the cake's been cut
The disco is over and the bar is shut
At christening, birthday, wedding or wake
What can we sing until the morning breaks?
When the Indian, Asians, Afro, Celts
It's in their blood, below the belt
They're playing and dancing all night long
So what have they got right that we've got wrong?

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots - we need roots

Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than well ever know
Round the rocky shores of England

And a minister said his vision of hell
Is three folk singers in a pub near Wells
Well I've got a vision of urban sprawl
It's pubs where no one ever sings at all
And everyone stares at a great big screen
Over-paid soccer stars, prancing teens
Australian soap, American rap
Estuary English, baseball caps
And we learn to be ashamed before we walk
Of the way we look and the way we talk
Without our stories or our songs
How will we know where weve come from?
I've lost St George in the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it back

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots - we need roots

Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than we'll ever know
Round the rocky shores of England"


Show of Hands Myspace page:
http://www.myspace.com/showofhandsuk


Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:21 PM

Perhaps this thread on the same song has slipped your memory!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:24 PM

Woops! I forgot to tell you how I feel about 'Roots'

I think it's the best and strongest song that Steve Knightley has yet written...and my goodness he's written some good 'uns over the years hasn't he!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:26 PM

Double woops! ;0) Should I revive that thread? Or let this one stand do you think DMcG?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:28 PM

As the other thread has dozens of posts (including lots by you saying how much you love the song :-) ), maybe posting to that would be better.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:29 PM

God, is this what passes for care in the community nowadays?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:33 PM

No, it's just a rant with no regard for the musicians, dancers and teachers who actually are doing something to save and pass on their heritage. It offers no solutions and provides no political muscle to confront cultural apathy. Also (possibly unconsciously) it has highly socially divisive undertones.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:35 PM

The above 'np' wasn;t to Ruth's care in the community comment but to the outrageous suggestion that the Roots dirge was Knightley's 'best and strongest' song.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:41 PM

Nowt outrageous about that at all. I think it is.

And of course it offers a solution. The end of the apathy and shame that has surrounded 'Being English' in general, for the last two decades or so...

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:49 PM

I meant to type 'the above NO'.

And obviously Roots offers no solution. It's just a whingey old blokes' rant, full of socially divisive whining just like complaining about your neighbours on the grounds that you don't like their cooking, their music, their religion, their colour, their estuary English . . .

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Libbie
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:51 PM

If all the twats who've contributed to this and similar threads are really representative of folkies then maybe the music deserves to die out.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: breezy
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:41 PM

As I stand and play out and at such venues I believe the song is a true representation of the way it is.

have you seen those 'folkies' in Wells ?

Its similar to some of the 'sessions' that are around that should definitely be behind closed doors.

Anyway perhaps we are too old to be playing and dancing all night long.

Next 'Windward experience' Sunday 18th Feb at the Rose and Crown, St Albans, free adm

yep its a good song, it has substance.

see you countess

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 10:06 AM

PS--Hey, Lizzie, how's Sam?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 02:36 PM

How's Mr Route?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Mr Fox
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:06 AM

"Estuary English, baseball caps
And we learn to be ashamed before we walk
Of the way we look and the way we talk"


Excuse me, chum.

I was born and brought up in south London and Kent and speak what you so patronisingly call 'Estuary English' (I've even been known to wear a baseball cap on occasion). That's MY culture - my 'roots', if you like. And no, despite the best efforts of a generation of schoolteachers, I'm not ashamed of it. It's no less valid than Devon.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:23 AM

Mr. Fox...the whole point your missing is that YOU speak in your local accent and are proud of it...which is wonderful! But there is NO DEVON ACCENT among our young people down here...because they nearly all speak Estuary English...


From Guest...who is apparently too cowardly to put his name to all the deeply insulting posts he's posting away at me.

>>>>Lizzie.
Probably best to avoid the Radway at the end of Feb. You might hear some REAL musicians playing REAL music.<<<<

I went there last year Ralph. If you remember, I also wrote on the BBC board how there seemed to be little passion going on in there as well. The music was beautiful, don't get me wrong, but hardly a muscle was moving in that pub...no clapping, no smiling, no whooping, no...JOY!

I compared it to the Irish or the Scots and how they seem able to relax and enjoy their music so much more than the English, who seem so very inhibited about it.

Oh...and if you're getting so bored with me..then WHY are you coming into various threads about Show of Hands?

From Guest once again

>>>In fact it's probably racist. No mention of the other members of our multicultural society. No Afro-Carribeans, Poles, Jews, Turks, Italians, Asians (various) , etc....<<<

Taken from 'Roots' by Steve Knightley

"....After the speeches when the cake's been cut
The disco is over and the bar is shut
At christening, birthday, wedding or wake
What can we sing until the morning breaks?
When the Indian, Asians, Afro, Celts
It's in their blood, below the belt
They're playing and dancing all night long
So what have they got right that we've got wrong?..."

I'd suggest you first listen to the song, read the lyrics and then understand what's being said.

Thanks....

Lizzie

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:31 AM

Lizzie Cornish

On the day when you have actually acquired some knowledge of English music, and indeed, some inkling of social change and multiculturalism, do come back and discuss it with those here who know already.

In the meantime, please do everyone a favour and shut the fuck up. Your interminable rantings are tedious and embarassing.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,the count
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:15 AM

I'll second that!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:42 AM

Stop beating about the bush countess, tell her like it is.

eric

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:39 AM

Who says the English are dull? We were singing (maybe not dancing) all night long on Sunday night - I had the all-day hangover yesterday to prove it. My village pub was ringing to the sound of concertina, guitar and song. We even had an amazing man in called George, who travels with a traditional caravan and horses. It was a delight to meet him - and to hear him singing Kenny Rogers songs! At about midnight the landlady brought out a big spread of food, just because she was so delighted with the atmosphere the music and the singing had created. We rolled out very late indeed.

I feel compelled to point out that, apart from myself and one other member of this parish who was providing the lovely music, none of the people present were folkies. They were just having a great time, and kept saying what a privelege it was to be enjoying such an amazing night.

I'd take the completely organic and heartfelt enjoyment of Sunday night over the Plastic-Paddy whooping and Father Ted-style Riverdancing that passes for atmosphere in most "Oirish" pubs any day.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:58 AM

"In fact it's probably racist. No mention of the other members of our multicultural society"

How can a song be racist for not mentioning someone?

This means both "Dido Bendigo" and "The Fields of Athenry" must be racist too. In fact, so are loads of songs in English.

English - racist bastards!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:04 AM

>>>I'd take the completely organic and heartfelt enjoyment of Sunday night over the Plastic-Paddy whooping and Father Ted-style Riverdancing that passes for atmosphere in most "Oirish" pubs any day.<<<<


Actually, I hate to say this, but as some of you lot are proud to call yourselves English Traditionalists, give me the welcoming Irish and Scots any day.

I've haven't read such a lot of smug, arrogant and spiteful remarks since the BBC board was cleaned up of them all recently.

Sheesh! No wonder English traditional music has been dying on its feet for decades...with you lot in it!

Thank GOD that Show of Hands and Seth Lakeman have come along to put new life into it all! And...thank heavens also for the rest of the young folkies, most of whom are warm, welcoming, have no rules or regulations and don't consider themselves to be better than anyone else!

Oh and Ruth of Loughborough..I'd suggest you take in some of The Demon Barbers clog dancing, next time you've taken your head away from your smug little situpon. I think you'll find, if you read their site, that they were inspired by Riverdance...

The Demon Barbers are also doing brilliant things for English music and dance, for just like Seth and Show of Hands, they're bringing in the young people...and without those young people...English traditional music is in big trouble!


I'd also like to point out to people that the three people on this thread, that is Ralph Jordan, Diane Easby and Joan Crump..otherwise known as Guest, Countess and Ruth Archer have all been banned from attacking me over on my Myspace page, where they also came to pour their vitriol over me.

Methinks they're more than a little miffed! ;0)

And now...back to 'Roots' and Show of Hands...

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:16 AM

"And now...back to 'Roots' and Show of Hands..."

I'm sticking with Don McLean singing "American Pie" on his 1975 solo album (which was recorded on UK gigs). I still prefer that song. The poetry is better even if the exact events the lyrics reference are a bit obscure in places.

I'm even thinking of moving back from received pronunciation to my native estuary English in protest too...

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:19 AM

"I met a girl who sang the blues
And I asked her for some happy news,
But she just smiled and turned away.
I went down to the sacred store
Where I'd heard the music years before,
But the man there said the music wouldn't play.

And in the streets: the children screamed,
The lovers cried, and the poets dreamed.
But not a word was spoken;
The church bells all were broken.
And the three men I admire most:
The father, son, and the holy ghost,
They caught the last train for the coast
The day the music died"

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:32 AM

Ooooo, now we're outing people. Is that a personal attack too? Keep taking the meds, Mrs. Route.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:35 AM

Being banned from your myspace page, Lizzie, would mean me having to visit it. I sent you one message, once, to clarify some points in a less public way, and you replied with a long and quite psychiologically unstable tirade, before "banning" me from sending you messages. Well, as I had never even vistited your myspace before that - you were the one who found me and sent me a friend request, if you remember - I have hardly been losing sleep.

I, on the other hand, am not banned from the BBC website. Funnily enough, you are. What do you make of that, then?

I have never kept my identity secret here, Lizzie. Everyone here who wants to knows who I am. You, on the other hand, hide behind what you suppose to be your anonymity, and hysterically complain to moderators to have your real name removed every time it's mentioned. Now, why would that be? Perhaps largely because you indulge in behaviour on the internet that you know would cause upset and embarrassment to your family if they knew the extent of what you were up to.

I suggest you start using your real name, Mrs Route. You'll find that, without the cloak of anonymity, you will do fewer things about which you may feel embarrassed later. Or at least you might begin to conduct yourself with a modicum of propriety and discretion, and cause less embarrassment to your poor husband.

You don't need to tell me about the Demons, as you well know. Damien is a friend of mine, and I have done plenty to promote their work, and other aspects of folk and traditional music and dance, in schools and the community. I'm working with several other organisations and artists as well, on a completely voluntary basis, because I want to help where I can. In other words, I'm not sitting here screeching like a looney on the net - I'm actually doing something.

What are you doing, Lizzie?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:47 AM

Hey, what about me? Can't I be outed too?

Honestly, though, there is a theme runnng through the blather. Plastic pop music, anodyne snigger-snogwriters, an idealised Laura Ashley Albionised England - the whole thing's just a pastiche. It's about as real as the stick-on leaded lights on the uPVC windows of modern houses, or the fake beams of a Harvester restaurant.
Lizzie - the real England is out there. It's messy, untidy and resists being pigeonholed into the tweeness you seem to love, but get involved and discover a passion for the real, not the fake.
Go out and sample it. You'll find that England doesn't smell of roses; it also has slurry pits and foundry floors. And yes, it has its yobs and yahoos, but it also has decent people who are trying to make a difference and who want to build a future, not take us back to a past.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: AlexB
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:53 AM

snogwriters? Sorry, it may have been unintentional, but it just struck me as funny.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:53 AM

Outed? I think most people here know the story of Young Hunting and how I got my name and why it's funny. Those who don't should perhaps not be here but still be confined to the vaguely folk-tinged Devon popsters' nursery class. It's really difficult to imagine why or how Mrs Route keeps up her risible tirade against The English Tradition which she would fail to recognise even if it leapt up and bit her on the arse. If plastic shamrock and mass-produced tartan biscuit tins are her bag she'd possibly find them in the English Heritage shop alongside BNP-endorsed CDs.

I'll leave Athos and Aramis to speak for themselves, Oh, Aramis already has. Like Ruth, I too got a crazed MySpace message in which Mrs Route told me all about her pretendy cyber affair with Sam, to which I was unwise enough to reply. I declined her oiffer to be a MySpace 'friend' because I have only those I actually know in real life on my site.

Porthos

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:59 AM

Oh God I've been outed!!
Bugger....
I'm so upset.
Yes it was indeed me playing for a small number of ordinary people, who have no connection with trad music. It seems to have been a good night for all concerned.......But
Do you know what? None of them had ever heard of Seth Lakeman, or Show of Hands. Or Martin Carthy, Kate Rusby, Uncle Tom Cobbley et al....
And also, they didn't want to know about any of them either.
Thats the great British public for you!!!
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
The number of people on this board is tiny.
SOH might have 6 or 7 thousand fans......sorry, that doesn't change my world......Even the new leader of the Tory party is doing better, and even he doesn't look like winning!!

Interesting thought....

SOH votes are on a par with the BNP.....Mmmmmmmmmm.

No hint of Racism then.

(Any chance of letting the rest of England into this debate, or do we all have to have a white face, and a West country accent??)

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:04 AM

Hang on...er..isn't Ruth..er Joan?

Or is Joan..er.....Ruth...

And nope...I've no idea if you're friends with Damien Barber. It would have been nice though if you'd thought about that before pouring scorn on Riverdance though....as some of his dancers were inspired by Michael Flatley.

What I find so deeply strange though is this ganging up and bullying that is so strong in the English Traditional world.

It is, thank goodness, only a few people who are like it, but WHY have you all been drawn in by English Traditional music?

Is it something to do with Ewan MacColl and the rules and regulations he set so long ago? Are you all unable to let go of those attitudes?

It's all most odd!

Still....as I said earlier...Thank Heavens for people like Steve and Phil who cut right through you lot and are welcoming, supportive, kind, humourous and anything but unpleasant!

Long Live Show of Hands!

Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:19 AM

SOH are not exemplars of English traditonal music, any more than is Ralp McTell or Cat frigging Stevens.
I love English traditional music. I don't like SOH. Having them as ambassadors for English traditional music sits about as comfortably as having the Little Chef chain promoting British regional cooking. They are to traditional music what Heather Mills is to tap-dancing.
You stick with your plastic pop and I'll stick to my traditional stuff, and I'm sure our paths will never cross.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:25 AM

The Taylor sisters who dance with The Demon Barber Road Show perform a form of English step which has no relationship whatsoever to Irish dance. Whether they might have been initially inspired to take up dancing is another matter. However, Mrs Route has no concept of what the English tradition comprises, nor does she have any compulsion to find out.

As for Ewan MacColl, just read innumerable threads and references passim. What happened at the Singers' was a decision of the entire membership.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:26 AM

Captain Ginger....having fought this battle for 10 years now..(just on Mudcat...longer before that), I welcome the help, but we are outnumbered.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:19 PM

The Taylor sisters were clog dancing in Lichfield as kids, before Riverdance ever appeared on Eurovision. I know - I was there. They come from a family who are rooted in tradition - they had mates who were English dancers, too.

Damien would laugh heartily at me taking the piss out of Michael Flatley, as long as I continue to genuflect at the shrine of Bellamy.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:25 PM

Let's ask again: what are you doing to promote, proliferate and defend English culture, Lizzie? In real life - out there. I'd be ever so interested to know. If Show of hands' message is important because it makes people DO things, what are you doing?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: breezy
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:24 PM

Its a very good song an appealing tune and arrangement , but a bugger to sing.

I thoght aramis was a deoderant

talking of rants

pray continue , but ease up with the profanities please.

all ye self opinionated pompous lot

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:40 PM

I thought Aramis was an aftershave myself.... although I believe that Dumas' character may have buckled his swash more than a little?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Mr Fox
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 06:48 AM

"Mr. Fox...the whole point your missing is that YOU speak in your local accent and are proud of it...which is wonderful! But there is NO DEVON ACCENT among our young people down here...because they nearly all speak Estuary English..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They don't, you know. They speak 'mockney' or 'Ali G'. For myself, I speak south London with an overlay of north Kent and (thanks to a granddad from Tiptree) hints of rural Essex.

As an accent, 'Estuary' exists about as much as 'American', which is to say not at all - or as a huge and hideous generalisation – and how would you like it if I lumped all West Country accents together as 'BBC Mummerset'?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Stu
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 07:20 AM

We have Mummers that come around our local session. They're excellent.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 07:54 AM

Steve Knightley is making a point more about the spread of the use of Estuary English than at its native speakers. However, the way he has phrased his lyric doesn't make it that obvious. I've seen and heard several very adverse reactions to that line in various places to realise that it can be taken the wrong way.

From my own travels around England, regional accents are alive and well. However, we live in a world where it is much easier to hear other accents regularly than it was 100 years ago, and people do pick up influences. Of course there is a huge reservoir of speakers of an English originally based on West Country pronnunciation to be found about 3000 miles to the west of Sidmouth, but if you were to follow "Roots" literally as if were some sort of manifesto and shut out transatlantic influence you wouldn't hear it. "Roots" however isn't supposed to be taken literally. It is just a song that is supposed to make you think about the issues it raises. If it makes more people read Billy Bragg's rather deeper treatment in his recent book "The Progressive Patriot", so much the better. However, that takes a lot longer than listening to a performance of "Roots", which I clocked at just under 5 minutes on Johnnie Walker the other night. "English, Half-English" will however give you the other half of the argument summarised in about 5 minutes as well.

My solution to the dilema of anyone finding they or theirs have started to talk as if they come from the South East when they don't is to cut down on the intake of Eastenders (other sources of Estuary and Cockney are available) and increase the dosage of the likes of Corrie, "Hollyoaks", "Friends" and "The West Wing". "Skins" Bristol setting might prove a source of vagely West Country role models sas well. Adding more Dylan, Springsteen, Simon, Earle into the listening mix might also help redress balance too. There are a lot of advantages to being able to access a huge amount and variety of songs (and films) in English if you want to take the positive and not just look at the negative impact of the Globalisation of the English language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary_English

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 08:45 AM

From Keith

>>>Steve Knightley is making a point more about the spread of the use of Estuary English than at its native speakers. However, the way he has phrased his lyric doesn't make it that obvious. I've seen and heard several very adverse reactions to that line in various places to realise that it can be taken the wrong way.<<<


"....Over-paid soccer stars, prancing teens
Australian soap, American rap
Estuary English, baseball caps
And we learn to be ashamed before we walk
Of the way we look and the way we talk
Without our stories or our songs
How will we know where weve come from?
I've lost St George in the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it back.." (taken from 'Roots' by Steve Knightley"


Nowt wrong with the way Steve's put that to me Keith. Estuary English IS taking over from local accents, particuarly in The West Country. In my opinion, it's entirely driven by the media...and we need to go back to simply being 'ourselves' and being proud and happy to be ourselves too, wherever we come from, whatever our accent may be.

And as for those 'soccer oiks'.....GEEZ! Don't even get me STARTED on them! £5 million every WEEK for the next 5 years for Beckham???????

And these are the new 'heroes' for our kids??????

Have we lost the plot or what????? Kind of fits in with Pete Morton's song 'Corruption Country' that I'm listening to today on my page...


From Ginger:

>>>SOH are not exemplars of English traditonal music, any more than is Ralp McTell or Cat frigging Stevens.
I love English traditional music. I don't like SOH. Having them as ambassadors for English traditional music sits about as comfortably as having the Little Chef chain promoting British regional cooking. They are to traditional music what Heather Mills is to tap-dancing.
You stick with your plastic pop and I'll stick to my traditional stuff, and I'm sure our paths will never cross.


I LOVE some English traditional music and I also LOVE the music of Show of Hands, both their acoustic, their folk, their roots and their traditional.   

Show of Hands play MUSIC Ginger...they do not and never have claimed to ONLY play traditional music, although they do indeed play some traditional songs..and they play them damn well too, without having to put on arran sweaters or stick their fingers in their ears or tune up for hours....neither do they forget the words or sing 58 verses!

Bloody hell...next you'll be telling me that John Tams doesn't play traditional music either! And just SO don't start insulting John...OK Ginge?

AND if being an English 'traddie' means that I'll end up like you, thinking I know better than anyone else or dividing music off, putting walls around it and making it exclusive to 'the strange ones' then so help me!

AND...as for that highly unpleasant remark about Heather Mills..that was way out of order in my book..way out!

Give me the welcoming world of Show of Hands, the gentle world of John Tams or the exciting world of Seth Lakeman any day, over the twisted, narrow, selective, ostracising, smug, snotty-nosed and dictatorial world of some of the people in here who consider themselves to be English Traditionalists...anyday!

And now...if it's OK with them and even if it's not...I'm off to listen to Barry Lister's brilliant 'Ghosts And Greasepaint'....because Barry and his mates could probably knock spots of most of the Moaning Minnies in here, with their wonderful voices and arrangements of traditional songs...

So stick that up your arran sweaters! ;0)

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Alec
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 09:09 AM

Traditional,revival & contemporary music are alive and well and being extremely promiscuous here in the North East.
If the writer wished to limit himself to a problem specific to an area where the influence of Estuary English is increasing he ought to have avoided namechecking locales where it is not.
The song DOES raise some relevant points which his scattergun approach undermines (Please excuse the mixed metaphor)
Agree with you on the Heather Mills point though.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 09:19 AM

Oh crap. I was hoping this had fallen off the bottom.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 09:37 AM

Well, it would have done if you hadn't posted that.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 09:58 AM

Some of an Irishman's observations on the English and their speech, translated into verse by a couple of Americans as it so happens.

http://www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/whycantt.htm

And I will say again, most of those variants remarked upon by George Bernard Shaw approximately 100 years ago are alive and well, even in the West Country, if I believe the evidence of my own ears.

As to whether Pygmalion is more accessible in its original, or passing to and fro across the Atlantic so that I first heard it in the voices of Rex Harrison and Julie Andrews rather than Leslie Howard and Wendy Hiller I know not. I suspect that My Fair Lady did make my later study of the original play easier. Best bit of English "homework" I ever got was "go home and watch the 1938 film on TV tonight" though!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 10:38 AM

Barry Lister had been an integral part of Sidmouth for several decades before Lizzie "Mrs Route" Cornish emerged from the depths of Pinner and "discovered" SoH, a band which (as any fule kno) doesn't actually bother to tune up. Pity, cos Phil Beer used to be a very fine trad musician once upon a time and easily could be again. Then. last year, she "discovered" poor Mr Lister but she'll surely move on to the next "boysie band" some time soon. Or so he hopes . . .

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Moaning Minnie
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 01:15 PM

....Over-paid soccer stars, prancing teens
Australian soap, American rap
Estuary English, baseball caps
And we learn to be ashamed before we walk
Of the way we look and the way we talk
Without our stories or our songs
How will we know where weve come from?
I've lost St George in the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it back.." (taken from 'Roots' by Steve Knightley"

Nowt wrong with the way Steve's put that to me Keith. Estuary English IS taking over from local accents, particuarly in The West Country. In my opinion, it's entirely driven by the media...and we need to go back to simply being 'ourselves' and being proud and happy to be ourselves too, wherever we come from, whatever our accent may be.

'tis an irony that these sentiments are brought to us with a sound that is heavily influenced by American musical culture.

Mr Knightley and Mr Beer. Please go and listen to the "Voice of the People", absorb your musical heritage and come out blazing.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 05:26 PM

From Diane:

>>>Barry Lister had been an integral part of Sidmouth for several decades before Lizzie "Mrs Route" Cornish emerged from the depths of Pinner and "discovered" SoH, a band which (as any fule kno) doesn't actually bother to tune up. Pity, cos Phil Beer used to be a very fine trad musician once upon a time and easily could be again. Then. last year, she "discovered" poor Mr Lister but she'll surely move on to the next "boysie band" some time soon. Or so he hopes . . .<<<

Oi! You leave Barry Lister alone! He's The New Seth Lakeman :0)...And he taught Show of Hands 'Adieu Sweet Lovely Nancy'...and they always give him credit for it every time they sing it....and Barry knows that too.

And Show of Hands er...don't have to tune up....everything's already IN tune and they got all those special twiddly bits that ensure they stay that way too....They've made 'NOT having to tune up' into an art!

And as for your comments on Phil...well...there's a fine thing, coming from someone who openly admits they can't take their eyes away from staring at music whilst playing....

er...perhaps Phil might give you lessons Sweetums...but then again....


;0)

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 11:09 PM

I MUST tell you all about this SUPER TRAD band in the Back Of Beyond USA. They are just SO wonderful you wouldn't believe it!!! Soooo trad it's unbelievable!!! :O) Just because they also play a little bit of Charlie Pride, Roaring '20's or blues doesn't mean they aren't TRAD!!!!

I mean geeze, these guys can get it on down with Soldiers Joy, Brighton Camp, Chicken Reel, Angeline the Baker...OH MY GOODNESS!! they are just soooo good, you must all travel here to hear them!!!

Of course they also play some crap stuff like schmaltzy Stephen Foster, Danny Boy, Irish Eyes, but hey, they are TRAD to the bone!!!

Come on over Mrs Route, and give us a lift!!! They already play for FREE so how much lower can it get for them?????

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 11:24 PM

Forgot to tell you their name!!! They are TFA....or Traditonal Folkin' About!!!! Sometimes as many as 15 musos folkin' about on stage!!! For FREE!!!! Feed them and they'll be happy bunnies!!! Esp if you offer BROWNIES!!!! Brownies are just so,.....Um, TRAD, for musos, you know??

So, support the TFA wherever you find them!!!! We don't have a festival or a route number, but we have a PO box! You could send fan mail and suggestions there!!!! They don't have an agent at this time either but they are counting on a route to that soon so that they may hit the BIG TIME!!! Maybe even in the Sacred Isle of Albion!!! Where ALL is just sooo hunky dory in Sidmouth!!! They are waiting with bated breath to be invited!!!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 03:25 AM

I learned a couple of tunes off Phil Beer's Rhythm Methodist, as it goes. I wrote them down and played them till I could, as I would with anything before playing it out. And I'm not standing up and taking money for it. How do you learn tunes, Mrs Route?

So what can you possibly mean by SoH's twiddly bits? Is it all backing tracks and MIDI-programming? Pity they haven't figured out how to operate it then. I heard Routes or Roots or whatever it's called coming over at almost a whole tone flat.

Barry Lister, jolly fine chap though he is, is not a source for Adieu Sweet Lovely Nancy. It's from the Copper Family songbook, as printed in A Song For Every Season

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 03:48 AM

"Barry Lister, jolly fine chap though he is, is not a source for Adieu Sweet Lovely Nancy. It's from the Copper Family songbook, as printed in A Song For Every Season "

Exactly - I was wondering why they'd credit Barry Lister for it as well. Particularly as it's hardly an obscure song - everybody and their dog has sung it at some point. My dog's rendition was particularly fine, as it happens. Did they really need Barry Lister to teach them one of the most well-known songs in the English canon?

Before I get the "Oi! You leave Barry Lister alone!" Which results when any mere mortal even mentions someone that Lizzie has "discovered" and thereby claims possession of, I would add that I am particularly fond of his version of another Copper family classic, Thousands or More. Though my favourite version of that song is actually sung by my friend Katy:

"Time passes over more pleasant and gay
Since we learned a new act to drive Saul Rose away..."

Try it. Sheer brilliance, and especially funny if Mr Rose happens to be in the room.

I won't bother wearily adding that this is meant to cast no nasturtiums on the excellent Mr Rose, as Lizzie only leaps to screeching and unwarranted defense of people she's actually heard of.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 04:00 AM

I heard Routes or Roots or whatever it's called coming over at almost a whole tone flat.

Compared to what, may I ask? I'm not sure what you mean.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Spot
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 04:04 AM

Allo everybody...

                  Original question was "do you like it?"

                  

                  No

                  Regards to all....Spot

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 04:11 AM

Compared to the frequency it ought to have been at. Steve Knightley's own estimation was that it was a tone flat. I heard it at slightly less. Whatever. The pitch was quite a few Hz adrift and the effect was not so much microtonal, more an unpeasant dirge.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 05:20 AM

You need to see harriWattsband - they are allways spot on to the nearest Hz......

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 05:57 AM

Ooerr, folkies are expected to sing to correct pitch to the nearest Hz now then? Should all those old blokes with Aran sweaters carry tuners tround their necks? :-)

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 06:02 AM

No...but maybe the ones with all those twiddly bits have less of an excuse for getting it wrong...

Personally, I sing in an extraodrinary number of keys in just the one song - just ask Ralph Jordan. :)

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,DaveT
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 07:05 AM

At the risk of adding `more fuel` to this extended debate- whatever your taste/opinion of music is, debate of this kind achieves nothing.
Perhaps that is the intention- but a waste of time/effort ?

Support LIVE music of your choice- and support others who do the same.

I look forward to discussing this topic with SOH when they return to perform at our (VERY) friendly festival, in Middlewich, in June.
DaveT

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 07:44 AM

Er....Show of Hands don't write..

"Track I -Adieu Sweet Lovely Nancy - Traditional Song by Barry Lister" on their CD...

Gawd Save Me from Pedantic Traddies! Cross Eyed Doh! Smiley

What they DO do though, is, every time they SING "Adieu Sweet Lovely Nancy" they give Barry Lister a name check because he taught it to them...They quite happily tell people that and they also mention what a lovely bloke he is too.

Sigh!

And anyone is free to mention Barry....

Oh...and you've been carping on about wanting to know what I do for folk music Joanie/Ruth...

Well...one of the things I do with regards to folk music, is I write about it, tens of thousands of words about it....can't stop actually...because I love it so much.

However, my words are always supportive and enthusiastic and I would NEVER use my words to degrade ANY performer in the appalling way that YOU chose to do about Show of Hands recently, over on the BBC board.

I have no respect for anyone who uses messageboards to verbally abuse named musicians...particularly when the people who write those words are apparently organising folk festivals, such as you do with Loughborough. I would hope that those people would know a damn site better about being supportive of ALL the acts they choose to book...even if that support is merely NOT stating whether or not you dislike a particular act.

I'd suggest you read up about Honour and Integrity.


And yes...Saul Rose, Joanie....a lovely man.

I had a little chatter with him just the other day over on Albion Heart's Myspace...about his gig with Faustus last year, in Exeter, that we went to see and so enjoyed.

I wrote about it too, on the BBC...not that you'd have bothered to read it mind. ;0)


Fabulous Faustus:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F2142825?thread=2616321

And here is the Myspace link for them too:

FAUSTUS:
http://www.myspace.com/faustustrio



Oh Heck..I can hear the outraged, shocked and deeply incensed, sharp intake of breath from here.   

"GEEZ! She likes Saul Rose and Faustus too!!!! Let's turn up the insults EVEN MORE girls...and the bitchiness...We HAVE to drive her away..She's not one of US...Let's drag her family down ever further, insult her kids, become ever more personal and abusive and eventually she'll ********* off!"

;0)

And now I'll leave you, Diane and Sorcha to think up even more unpleasant comments. Why do visions of those three witches in Macbeth come to mind I wonder..

I'm going off to listen 'Cast Threads Away' by Hocus....

Have a nice day Girls!


Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 07:49 AM

From Dave:

>>>I look forward to discussing this topic with SOH when they return to perform at our (VERY) friendly festival, in Middlewich, in June.


Let's hear it for Middlewich Festival!! SETH LAKEMAN DEMON BARBERS NEW ROPE STRING BAND ....AND...SHOW OF HANDS...and more!

http://www.midfest.org.uk/mfab/

ALL that and Canal Boats as well. Oh! I so have to go there one day Dave...that looks lovely!


Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 07:52 AM

My (obligatory) tankard (I am after all a bearded traditionalist folky, with pipe, Aran sweater and Laura Ashley dress) has a built-in chromatic tuner. Whenever I want to sing or re-tune I just bash the side and use the note as my reference. The really exciting thing is that depending on how much is left in the tankard, I get a different note. I wonder if that is why I break so many strings.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 07:55 AM

From Dave:

>>>I look forward to discussing this topic with SOH when they return to perform at our (VERY) friendly festival, in Middlewich, in June.

Dave, off topic a bit sorry...but is there any other link for Middlewich Festival?

And you may enjoy this:

TALES FROM THE TOWPATH@
http://talesfromthetowpath.tripod.com/index.html

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 08:07 AM

Hola from sunny Hull,
                                     This duo have had so much vitriol poured upon them on this site, that I decided to pop out this lunch time to my local Hmv to buy a copy of 'Witness' to see what all the fuss is about. £9.95 later, said CD is sitting on my desk! Nice fold out sleeve, no idea what it sounds like yet. The power of mudcat eh what?
                'And you lot! Spread the word'
Make a change from 'flamenco, the true path.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 08:13 AM

Evil Ted, maybe you should listen to the CD and let the assembled multitudes know what you think of it?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 08:17 AM

Head out to sea, turn right (sorry starboard) and follow the rocky shores of Ingerland around past Lundy and up to Stourport. Turn right again into the Staffs and Worcs Canal. Turn left at Great Heywood Jn onto the Trent and Mersey on to Middlewich.

Remember your vessel must not draw more than about 30", a headroom of less than 5'9", a beam of no more than 7' and a length of no more than 70'.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 08:21 AM

The Innocent's Song..words by Charles Causley, is beautiful Ted...and so haunting too.

You can check out all about Show of Hands, Charles Causley and 'Witness' on here:

http://show-of-hands.tripod.com/meanwhilesomewhere.html

Oh..and don't forget...if you like it (hope you do, but each to their own) and want to 'spread the word' a bit more, Show of Hands openly encourage everyone to copy their CDs and share their music with as many friends as they want.

Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 08:36 AM

Yo Scrump,
                            'Assembled multitudes'??? There's only six of us here! One of the younger element in my office has just shown me how to play the CD on my computer, so I will let all six of you know my impressions of it. So far, I know I already like 'Falmouth packet' and 'All I'd ever lost'
Brown, the new black

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 08:48 AM

"Well...one of the things I do with regards to folk music, is I write about it, tens of thousands of words about it....can't stop actually...because I love it so much."

Don't we know it. But that is all you do, Lizzie - go on and on because you love the sound of your own voice. No one takes you or your rantings seriously, lizzie, except you. BTW, do they count as thousands of words if they're basically the same few sentences over and over and over again?

Get out there and DO something for the culture you purport to love so much. Your repeated rants are just so much virtual auto-eroticism.

All I said on the BBC board, as you well know, is that I don't like SoH, and I'd rather have pins in my eyes than sit through a set of theirs. It's a throwaway turn of phrase, not "verbal abuse". I did not say they should be crucified for crimes against folk. I did not say that their children should be burnt, or that they are ugly or they smell, or that they are bad people, nor did I even cast aspesions on their musicianship. So this "personal attack" is all in your own (quite scary) head. I have even made it clear that Phil Beer is a very nice man. As it happens, when I was married I even persuaded my husband, who is a national newspaper journalist, to interview Steve Knightley for a piece on the West Country. So once again, this vendetta of yours is purely a product of your imagination.

But personally, as an individual, I do not like their music. There you go. Just an opinion, which I am free to express regardless of what I do for a job. You took exception to this, lizzie, and in your completely bonkers way, decided you would repeatedly rake me over the coals for it. If that's the best you can do, love, find another hobby horse. And stop trying to twist the situation and manipulate it for your own benefit.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 09:03 AM

Joan...I merely said that I thought what you said was appalling...and then er...YOU started with the personal attacks "You're a nasty little racist Lizzie"....not the other way round, as you doing repeatedly on here over and over.

Of course you're free to like or dislike anyone you so choose. But it's no good getting ratty if people take umbridge at what you say...and I took umbridge. I'd have also been offended whoever you'd said that about.

Not on Joanie...sorry!

And far from being deeply personal, or er...verbally abusive, as you choose to be to me...I've just commented on what you said.

You can say whatever you want about the way I write, how I write and what I write. I've been insulted by The Moaning Minnies for so many years now Joan that it all runs off. None of it puts me off or even upsets me anymore. It used to...deeply, but I've got passed that now. And the music keeps me writing, as does my anger that it's all buried away by the BBC!

Tell me though Joan, if I write such drivel how come you always read it? ;0)

Great to hear your hubby interviewed Steve...and that you think Phil is such a lovely person...shame you put your foot in it with such an un-called for remark though. Ho hum. I'd look up the meaning of the word LOYALTY too...

And now..I'll leave you to get back to your personal insults.

I'd double check with your good mates, Diane and Ralph, though, because they've used MANY of the ones you're now using. I always think, if you're going to try and unnerve, insult, abuse, upset, or deeply offend someone, then it's always best to come out with something highly original.

You've insulted me personally, my daughter, my outlook on life, my family, The Albion Chronicles, Sam, my choice in music, the way I write, my intelligence, my zest for life...etc etc....

Come ON Joanie! Look in your '100 Best Insults For Bullies' book...there MUST be SOMETHING better than all of those! ;0)



Glad to hear you like The Falmouth Packet Ted...It's GREAT to dance to as well! Come on...stop working and get your office up and boogeying! :0) xx

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 09:16 AM

I didn't put my foot in it, Lizzie, because it was nothing I wouldn't happily repeat in front of anyone. If, on the other hand, I were hiding my identity and making personal attacks on people from behind a veil of anonymity (not to mention leaving a trail of website addresses all over the web which flaunted my infidelity, when my husband was known to people on those very boards), I might have a lot more to feel embarrassed about.

Your racism, as you well know, was a completely different issue arising from your assertion that I couldn't appreciate certain aspects of English culture because didn't "have England flowing through every part of me" - in other words, I'm too foreign to get it. You made slighting references to my non-Englishness on two other occasions, as well as an ill-informed and vicious attack on American culture. You also rhapsodised about and hearkened back to a fictionalised version of chocolate-box England which didn't acknowledge cultural diversity in any way. THAT's why I called you a racist. Not that I think you're in the BNP or anything - I think you're racist in a poorly-educated, ignorant, Jade Goody kind of way.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Beachcomber
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 09:20 AM

I think Roots is an absolutely dire song.
Here's a rant:

I woke up this morning and fancied a rant,
Picked up my axe and started to chant

Haul away sailor, don't let me trouble you
I wanna nick your BMW

Schools are crap and so are casinos
And everybody's drinkin' cappucinos

Mrs Marples' house was knocked down yesterday
To make way for a fast food takeaway

Swing from the rafters, dance all night
They're all wrong and I'm alright

Three jolly ploughboys sitting in a row
It's one for the money, so the other two go.

Roses and robins and pretty little thingies
Are gonna be destroyed by the nasty left-wingies

Hey nonny nonny and fiddle dee dee,
Daddy's gone to join the BNP

Nobody cares that England's gorn
Apart from me as I sing this song

And it's all THEIR fault, whatever THEY do
THEY'RE all b*stards, so are you.

But I'll sit all day and let you know
That only I know the way to go.

So it's hands to the plough and a bottle of beer
And you can bugger off out of here

(continues endlessly)

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 09:23 AM

Now those insults are getting..well I was going to say 'better' but that's not the right word is, 'even more deeply personal' Joanie....

...but oh dear me...are you showing yourself up along the way.

I always think it's best never to go down to the same level of those who abuse you, because then...they've won.

So..I'll just sit here and look at your words again...from a distance...with pity in my eyes.

WHY though, does folk music make me so happy..fill me with such passion....enrage me so because it's not 'out there' where it should be...and yet...for some it seems to fill them with such bitterness?

Love is far better than bitterness Joan.

I'd suggest you look up the meaning of LOVE too.

And now...back to 'Roots' and Show of Hands....


Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 09:26 AM

Oh my god. That might even be better that the Bonny White Hare...

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 09:29 AM

surely to be deeply personal insults, lizzie, there'd have to be an element of untruth there, rather than a simple catalogue of your behaviour.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Stu
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 09:31 AM

"Get out there and DO something for the culture you purport to love so much."

I'm getting worried that I'm not doing enough for the culture (or one of them, I'm not sure where the dividing line between them is . . .) I puport to love. What action should we be taking?

culture |?k?lt??| noun

1 the arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively : 20th century popular culture.

• a refined understanding or appreciation of this : men of culture.

• the customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group : Caribbean culture | people from many different cultures.

I play the music, sing the songs, buy the records, go to gigs etc. I thought I was actively engaging in the culture(s). Come to think of it, what defines that culture? To me it ranges from Harry Cox to Prefuse 73 with everything in between.

And another thing - on my copy of English Country Music I think one or two of the instruments may be out a tone or two - does this mean I should listen to something else instead?

But wait - I'm often out of tune, or even playing in the wrong key. Jesus, what an amateur. Can I still be a folkie please?

Heck.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 09:36 AM

Ruth Archer said of Mrs Route: I think you're racist in a poorly-educated, ignorant, Jade Goody kind of way

Spot On.

Ignorance is the biggest crime, the only sin. Mrs 'lizziecornish' Route is more lackng in self-awareness that anyone could ever have believed possible. This is not the first time I have requested publicly that she ceases attacking my friends (people whom she doesn't even know), stop embarrassing musicians with vomit-inducing, sycophantic tripe and. in short, (just for a change), take notice of people who know what they are talking about and try and learn something, just the fundamentals, about music. And about the roots of racism in society. No chance. I'm glad to say I've never set eyes on either Jade Goody nor Mrs Route. And nor do I ever wish to.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 09:38 AM

Stigweard, I'm not exhorting everyone to go out and start a revolution. You play. You're taking part in the tradition. Ace.

The point is that Lizzie bangs on about Britain's social ills, not least among them young people growing up not knowing their own culture, and produces a SoH song as the solution to the whole lot. When interrogated about how the song is supposed to make a difference, she explains that SoH inspire people to get out and do something about these social problems. I'm simply trying to find out whether this is true, and wanted to know what it is that they have inspired Lizzie to go out and do. The answer, as I suspected, is nothing, excpet write thousands of words of repetitive drivel on the internet.

As Billy Bragg said, Wearing badges is not enough.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: AlexB
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 09:38 AM

I wonder when Lizzie will give up her persecution complex and pretense of a moral high ground where she has none. Certainly it seems to me she baits people and hurls her share of insults, all the while claiming that personal attacks are wrong and she is above it. There was a time ages back where I thought people were being grossly unfair to her, now it seems to me that she craves the negative attention.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 09:50 AM

LOL, GUEST,Beachcomber :-)

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 09:57 AM

I would like to nominate Beachcomber's song for the Seth Lakeman Award in this years Mudcat folk awards.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Spot
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 09:58 AM

Allo everybody
      
       It very probably shouldn't have done but your "rant",         
       Beachcomber, really made me laugh!! That just about sums this
       bloody country up.... Let's have another soon...!!


       You should hire Albert Hall to back you on t'ocarina....!!

       Better still - I'll learn the bloody thing!!!   :-)

      
               Regards to all..... Spot

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 10:31 AM

How does the tune go, Beachcomber?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 10:44 AM

Just glad that I'm not on Lizzies Christmas card list.
Can't wait to meet her at this years Sidmouth though.
Ralph.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Morris-ey
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 10:46 AM

>>Nowt wrong with the way Steve's put that to me Keith. Estuary English IS taking over from local accents, particuarly in The West Country. In my opinion, it's entirely driven by the media...and we need to go back to simply being 'ourselves' and being proud and happy to be ourselves too, wherever we come from, whatever our accent may be.<<

I suspect young Devonians have a desire to better themselves.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Devil's Advocate
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 11:29 AM

Love is far better than bitterness Joan.
I'd suggest you look up the meaning of LOVE too.

"Love" - quite a wide ranging definition in Chambers - first three points ....
fondness;
charity;
an affection of the mind caused by that which delights"   etc
Lizzie, you would do well to heed your own pontifications - there is little of love or affection in what you post about others - in fact it appears to me that acrimoniousness (ie bitterness) is far more to the fore.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 11:58 AM

Whoops thought this was the "Nutters in Folk Clubs" thread!!!!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:37 PM

From Joanie:

>>>When interrogated about how the song is supposed to make a difference, she explains that SoH inspire people to get out and do something about these social problems. I'm simply trying to find out whether this is true,....<<<<

"INTERROGATED"???

Isn't that what the SS used to do to people?

Blimey Joan. I'd not realised I was in The Folk Dungeon being interrogated by the person who runs Loughborough Festival....

This isn't you is it...on the right?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/images/400/alloallo_3.jpg

GADZOOKS!

Tell me, is everyone who may er..actually want..to come to your festival 'interrogated' at the main gate?

Ye Gods And Little Fishes!

Hey Joanie, you're not a teacher as well are you by any chance? ;0)

Joanie: "You VILL OBEY ME!! YOU VILL!!"

Lizzie: "I VON'T!" :0)

Nope...for I'm a Free-Range Show of Hands Chick...so hurl your abuse and be damned!! :0)

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Yet Another Guest
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 01:45 PM

Brilliant penmanship counts for very little if you're writing for total wallies

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 01:49 PM

Mrs;lizziecornish' Route

It's a very simple: what examples can you give (if any) of this song actually inspiring people to get out and do something about social problems.

Just answer the fucking question.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 02:08 PM

Lizzie, "interrogate" is simply another word for questioning or examining deeply - not a concept with which you'll be readily familiar, I grant.

In academia (I was a university lecturer, not a schoolteacher, as it happens) we would use the word "interrogate" quite commonly when talking about questioning or examining an idea or thesis. So, for example, you propose the thesis that that SoH inspire people to get out and do something about Britain's social problems. In interrogating your thesis, I ask you to provide evidence. You cannot. Therefore, as a proposal your thesis holds no validity, or, in the vernacular, is complete b*llocks.

I do apologise for using words that require at least a basic understanding of logic and academic theory. I forgot who I was talking to. It won't happen again.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Yet Another Guest
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 02:48 PM

I do believe that this "countess" whoever it maybe, is way out of line with that sort of language, so please, give it a rest, if you can't be civil!

Thank You For your prompt attention in this matter.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 02:51 PM

"interrogate" is also an action performed by the Americans at Guantanamo Bay, in Cuba...sorry am I "off topic" here, or something?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 03:02 PM

If John Humphrys, Jeremy Paxman or Jim Naughtie get results by addressing their interviewees in the only form of words they understand, I think it's worth trying with Mrs 'lizziecornish' Route who is continuing, in her customary obtuse manner, to take the piss and squirm away from replying to Ruth Archer's entirely appropriate interrogatory style. What is 'uncivil' in the extreme is said Sidmouth resident's refusal to answer pertinent questions (because she can't) or address musical issues (again because she can't).

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 03:06 PM

Context, guest. It's all about context.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 03:11 PM

And Lizzie, if you have something to say, can you stop concocting imaginary friends? You already hide behind an alias - must you really subject us to all these Guest identities as well?

It's very tiresome.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Spot
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 03:15 PM

ALLO

             100 and I still dont like it or all this dirty washing..


             Regards to all... Spot

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 04:11 PM

>>>>GUEST,DaveT - PM
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 07:05 AM

At the risk of adding `more fuel` to this extended debate- whatever your taste/opinion of music is, debate of this kind achieves nothing.
Perhaps that is the intention- but a waste of time/effort ?

Support LIVE music of your choice- and support others who do the same.

I look forward to discussing this topic with SOH when they return to perform at our (VERY) friendly festival, in Middlewich, in June.
DaveT <<<<


Dave...if you're still out there somewhere...your Festival now has it's very own page on 'Tales From The Towpath'

I so hope you like it! :0) x


MIDDLEWICH FOLK AND BOAT FESTIVAL:
http://talesfromthetowpath.tripod.com/middlewich_folk_and_boat_festival.html

Well done Sam.....and Thank You! :0) x



Lizzie :0)

PS..Sorry Joanie, that wasn't me above.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 10:57 AM

Show of Hands will be performing a set on BBC Radio 4's Loose Ends programme tonight between 18:15 and 19:00 GMT. I would be surprised if that set did not include "Roots", since it is launched as a single on Monday and is nominated for the BBC Folk Awards that same night.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 02:41 PM

Interestimg that 'her boys' didnt suggest to Lizzie that SHE mention their appearance !
Heard it myself , and was so moved to do something that I carried on playing Solitaire .

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 03:11 PM

Is that what they call it these days, LF? :D

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 03:37 PM

That . . . or Solo:

Do you play solo?
Ain't life a solo?
I've always lived in a mansion
On the other side of the moon.
I've always kept a unicorn
And I never sing out of tune.

She'd have been 60 only the other day.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 04:33 PM

Thank You For your prompt attention in this matter.
Prompt attention? What sort of claptrap is that? It's the sort of meaningless, insincere drivel that is found at the end of unsolicited emails - along with 'best regards'.
I shall most certainly not be giving your exortation my prompt attention. And neither, I wager, with countess richard.

In similar vein;
I remain, sir, your humble and obedient servant.
Now piss off.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 06:55 PM

I'm very sorry, but I have to agree with my friend and colleague Dave T about the pointlessness of this thread. Not only is it quite pointless, it has also descended into vulgar abuse which I find off-putting in the extreme.
If you like a song (or anything else for that matter) you like it, and if you don't you don't. Nothing in the world is going to shift you from that viewpoint, as liking/not liking things is subjective. I realise that I'm only making the same point that many other people have made on various other threads over the years, but it does rather get on my nerves when Mudcat, which I think is the most valuable resource on the internet as far as traditional music (and much more) is concerned, is side-tracked in this way.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Stu
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 04:10 AM

Agreed Dave.

The buggers ballsed up my thread with their constant bickering.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 04:34 AM

The last point I was making (if it was such since it is so startlingly obvious) is that Solo (and most other compositions for that matter) has an instrinsic purpose in that it indicates what can be done in given circumstances. Roots has not. What has been vainly attempted here is to persuade Mrs 'madlizzie' Route to provide evidence on how the song has inspired anyone to do anything whatsoever about social problems. She has not. Conclusion? Unchanged. The song is a purposeless rant noticeably lacking in musical merit

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Folk Award Fan
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 05:19 AM

Hope Roots wins 'Best Original Song' tomorrow. Sad to see yet another thread about Show Of Hands degenerate into the usual kicking of Lizzie C by the Ratpack which follow her round. Ignore them Lizzie they are ignorant & not worth getting heated about. Roots is a great song. A worthy comment on England.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Alec
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 05:26 AM

A tolerable opinion on some people some living in some parts of Southern England at most.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 05:33 AM

With jingoistic overtones.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Devil's Advocate
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 08:33 AM

Interesting - the wording and turn of phrase of the posting by Guest: Folk Award Fan looks suspiciously familiar. Anyone want to cast bets on whether it's another one of Lizzie's split personalities???

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Albion Dizzy
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 08:47 AM

SoH.......Save our Homeland

Roots......Really Outdated, Overblown, Tinpot Sentiments

What d'ya think?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 11:01 AM

Anyone want to cast bets on whether it's another one of Lizzie's split personalities???

If the odds were as long as those in The Galway Farmer there might be some point. There's a massive outbreak of Cornish Multi-Personality Disorder occurring. Best course is not to open any mail that appears to have travelled via a devious ROUTE.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,little richard
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 11:25 AM

ROOTS....Rightwing Outpourings Offering Tedious Senarios

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Spot
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 01:01 PM

Allo everybody...

                   115...yawn...listened again on "My Space..."

                  Still don't like it, I'm afraid...

      If it wins Best Original Song then the rest of us ought to get our pens out...!!
                  Its all been said before.... etc

    Having said that , I can't write songs for toffee...   :-(

                   Regards to all....Spot

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 04:42 PM

I think 'Tomorrow Belongs to Me' has a better tune, and rather nice lyrics.
Anyway, I'm sure the SoH bandwagon doesn't give a tinker's fart about the ramblings of dyed-in-the-wool folkies on an internet message board.
For myself, however, I'd rather experience traditional English music through the lens of Spiers & Boden and Bellowhead. They played a gig near me recently and ended up with a superb session in my local pub which went on into the wee hours. And not a self-penned song or 'modern' tune in sight.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Mr Fox
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 12:39 PM

"Hope Roots wins 'Best Original Song' tomorrow."

I don't. It's bad enough that the BNP has got council seats in some of the more jurassic areas of the country without the buggers taking over the Folk Awards as well.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 09:16 AM

Well, it didn't win, and SOH won nowt. That should cheer some of you up.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 09:38 AM

Yo Scrump,
                            A small consolation, I have enjoyed 'Witness'and shall be popping back to HMV this week to purchase 'Country Life'

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,arfur
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 08:45 PM

Cuntess richard,
why do the English have no representation on the Council of the isles?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:13 AM

I do hope that's a spelling mistake.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:38 AM

Country Life - good choice, Evil Ted. Glad you liked Witness.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:14 AM

Morning Scrump. The Cd came with a jolly splenedid DVD like wot i can watch in my computer too. Good deal all round I thought. Just got tickets for Steve Knightley's solo show in Pocklington in May, so I reckon it's time for me to abandon thread!!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:36 AM

Great stuff Evil Ted. Enjoy the gig!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:51 AM

The first airing of Roots occurred on an online radio show around a year ago. Here is a selection from some of the reaction:

Steve Knightley on SoH site:
The version of 'Roots' previewed on www.coolasfolk.co.uk tonight was actually a tone too low - not sure how this can happen in the digital age, but somehow it did!

me:
I played 'Roots' from CAF archive through transposing software in a number of different keys and it's still a dirge. There is a limit to what digital enhancement can do when some of the harmony overdubs (however they were done, it sounds clunky) are actually slightly more than a semitone out of tune with the melody.

lizziecornish:
At this *very* moment I am listening to an mp3 of the Cool As Folk version which went out last night on the radio. It is *totally* APPALLING!!! It is playing mind-bogglingly slow and is thus *completely* out of tune and the words are slurred. Someone on this thread, who professes to have such a great 'ear' for music, appears to think that the version they heard on CAF was er...what Show of Hands *meant* to put out!!!!! Whereas little ol' me could hear how horribly wrong it sounded within seconds! It was like eating lemons!! HOW could *anyone* ever think that Show Of Hands could put a track like that out in the first place???!!

me
I listened to it again after learning that Steve Knightley was complaining that on transmission it was a tone flat. I first transposed the soundfile into several keys and then also tried speeding it up to match the supposedly intended key. And I commented that some harmony phrases (presumably overdubs) were out of tune anyway, possibly because of careless editing. I haven't any idea what SoH intended to put out and, personally, care less. But a band with a relatively high profile (whether or not I or anyone would actually pay to go and see them) should, I would have thought, have taken care to send out demos that were a bit less rough.

The presenter later apologised and said there was 'something wrong with the streaming'. Ha!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Spot
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:59 AM

Allo everybody...
                      Just had another listen on the myspace thing.....    Still don't like it. Is it me or has LC disappeared form this thread?

                Regards to all....Spot

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:20 AM

I'm not sure what your post was meant to make, countess.

It sounds as if a faulty version of Roots was created in error, and the harmonies were in a different key to the lead vocals (or whatever) because of an editing cockup by someone. Clearly that would sound wrong (although I haven't heard it myself).

Steve Knightley says something was wrong with the version in question; and even our old friend LC said it was awful, too, so I can think we can assume the recording in question was a duff one.

That doesn't prove anything about Roots as a song, or the other various recordings of it (including the version on the Witness album and the live version on the single).

We know you don't like it - fair enough, that's your opinion. But the existence of a faultily produced version doesn't prove anything about the song itself.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:38 AM

Ah, well you see Scrump, I didn't preface my post with LC's lengthy eulogies pre-transmission of how 'marvellous' Roots was going to be as I thought we'd had quite enough of that already. What I was drawing attention to was the way in which she was trying to make out that it was my fault for not knowing that this was not exactly what the finished product was supposed to sound like. Thought that was obvious. She later, apparently, listened to the very same MP3 streamed at the right speed and pronounced it . . . well y'know the sort of thing.

I dislike the track because it's (a) musically medicre and (b) lyrically dodgy. LC 'likes' it unheard simply because of its provenance. Whose ears and critical faculties need attention?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:58 AM

I understand, countess. Thank you - I didn't know the history behind your posting but I do now.

I happen to like Roots (and SOH in general) but it isn't their strongest song IMO - we're all entitled to our opinions, of course. I just wanted to make sure you weren't judging its merits based on listening to what sounds like a technically faulty version.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 07:38 AM

It did not take the "Roots" video long to reach YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5h4PFBuzvw

Worth a look if you haven't seen it. I like it as a song and as a performance. As a statement about the "state of the England" it however takes rather too much of a "glass half empty" view for me, and I still prefer the poetry of the Don McLean's sing that gets a swipe.

On the question of Estuary English spreading like wildfire through the nation's young, I am happy to report that from observing about 1,000 "young people" (well almost everyone looked younger than me) at the Manchester Opera House on Monday, only Russell Brand, Tevor Lock and I were speaking anything approaching "Estuary". Even Russell was not all the time, as he kept mimicking his audience. Listening to the Folk Awards from the same night, regional accents also appeared to be alive and well, with IIRC only Sir David Attenborough and John Spiers using "BBC English"...

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 07:42 AM

John Spiers has a distinctive and pronounced South Oxfordshire accent.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 07:56 AM

Does he?! Whenever I speak to him I just think he sounds dead posh - but maybe that's because I'm an oik. I shall have to listen more carefully in future.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 08:00 AM

Just because he doesn't sound as though he has a piece of straw sticking out of his mouth doesn't mean you can't tell he's from Abingdon. It's the vowels, y'know.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 08:13 AM

South Oxfordshie is posh! :-)

Thanks for posting the link, GUEST,Keith. I enjoyed that. Note the symbolic use of the Eden Project (branch, seed, flower, shoots, etc.) :-)

Who were the 3 Somerset Folk singers? And the band with the harpist? Can anyone identify them?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 08:19 AM

He probably sounds 'posh' because RP - and, by descent, BBC English - is based on the Oxfordshire accent. He does enunciate well, though, and that makes a big difference. Poor bugger - he'd probably cringe to see his accent being dissected thus!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 08:21 AM

He would.
But he's feel a lot worse if we were dissecting his melodeons.
Poor bloke.
Sorry, Squeezy!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Surreysinger
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 08:48 AM

I thought it was Surrey that was supposed to be a posh accent... but then on the other hand the "posh" accent isn't the real Surrey one, which I can remember hearing once or twice in my teens - and which sounded more like the Sussex one which can still be heard today. Possibly not relevant to the conversation, but I just felt like sharing - grins..... and rushes for coat.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 09:20 AM

I though BBC English was based on the Penicuick accent.

eric

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:47 AM

A good piece on "Roots" and "Englishness" in yesterday's Financial Times.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/00320bf2-bb91-11db-afe4-0000779e2340.html

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:58 AM

Is 'David Honigmann' the new pseudonym for madlizziecornish? Does she have an NUJ card, I wonder?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Alec
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:04 AM

Again,I would be a lot more sympathetic were it not for the presupposition that problems specific to the bottom left hand corner of England are unquestionably representative of the country as a whole.
In making this assumption SoH are no better than the metropolitan "elite" they affect to condemn.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:07 AM

Thanks for the link, Keith.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:36 AM

Just read the piece in the Financial Times - whilst I'm not particualrly fond of 'Roots', I liked the reference to Maggie Holland's A Place Called England. It's one of my 'showpiece' songs and, coincidentally, last night, I was gently persuaded to do a spot at the pub I drink in (with non-folky friends) because it's started an 'open mic' session each Wednesday. One of the songs I sang was A Place Called England, and it went down extraordinarily well. As one friend said - I had them (the audience) in the palm of my hand for that one and I was aware that the applause was longest and loudest for it. I'll do it again next Wednesday!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:46 AM

Coope Boyes and Simpson are "northern groaners"? Well, last time I looked Derbyshire was still in the midlands...but it is north of London, so I guess that's what he meant. Interesting choice of bands to take a pop at, when the reviewer is celebrating S0H's "anti-metropolitan, anti-urban" perspective.

And Karine Polwart is anything but wan and smothering. Daisy is a beautiful song, and Karine has written some of the most articulate and emotionally perceptive songs I think i'vce ever heard. Karine herself, funnily enough, has a career history of social work (unlike Messrs Knightley and Beer, to the best of my knowlege, who just sing about England's problems). She also contributed to the recent radio ballad about living with HIV/AIDS. But I guess she deserves to be trivialised compared with the incredible work that SoH are doing.

Can someone remind me again what that is?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Alec
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:51 AM

Ruth, I believe the technical term for what SoH do is "Whinging".

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:53 AM

"Can someone remind me again what that is?"

You could try listening to this short piece on rural housing from Radio 5 Live about a week ago

http://www.savefile.com/files/473428

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:33 AM

Yes, I agree with Ruth that there was no need to slag off Karine Polwart's "Daisy" unfairly like that. As it happens I like both songs, but IMO Daisy isn't her best by any means (as I don't think Roots is SOH's best).

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 01:13 PM

<>

another government bureaucrat...not something to be proud of..

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,StevenPiper
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 02:19 PM

Certainly the politics behind the song makes it hard to enjoy, I think a positive message on the merits of English culture would be a far better way to deal with these issues than the excessively negative way they've done so in 'roots'. Getting in touch with your culture isn't about slating everyone elses culture or in this case any 'native' who happens to appreciate it and the second anyone approaches using the phrase "we're a minority in our own country" I just have to switch off. There are few things more irritating than politically naive musicians playing the moral crusader.

As for the song itself however, it's a pretty good arrangement for what it's aiming at. What it's aiming at isn't quite my cup of tea I have to say but I wouldn't sneer for a second at anyone who enjoys this style of music (whatever label you want to put on it).

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 12:36 PM

Before he is being accused of near-BNP politics, I have to say that I see in the lyrics of Roots none of the xenophobia Knightly is being accused of. Nowhere is he slating other cultures; indeed, quite the opposite - he explicitly states his envy of
"... Indian, Asians, Afro, Celts - It's in their blood and below the belt
They're playing and dancing all night long - So what have they got right that we've got wrong?". In my book this is admiration and a wish to emulate, not xenophobia.

And his complaint is also explicitly stated: "...I've lost St George in the Union Jack". I wonder, why do others see such twists in the lyrics, that I miss totally; I don't think I am naive, neither do I have any hidden agendas, my heart has always been on my sleeve. So how come I see a reasonable lyric while others see SoH transposing their "SE corner of England" "whingeing" to the whole of England? As if we haven't seen dozens of town centres all over the country on a Saturday night, from Stockton to Bedworth...

As for the song itself, it may not be Steve's best, I agree - bloody catchy though!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Alec
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 01:02 PM

The criticism I made of the song is largely based on the fact that we are informed that the song is, at least in part, a protest against the encroachment of Estuary English into the South East beyond London.
A valid grievance to which many of us sympathise.
But the Tyne gets a dishonourable mention at a very early point in the song and other areas do as well as the song progresses.
Regional difference is disregarded.I merely highlight Northumbria because it is my area & it is an area where Northumbrian pipers & white reggae fans can peacefully coexist & make hit singles together.
No region's traditions are seen at their best in town centres on a Saturday night had the narrative style been less prone to generalise and less judgemental their are many of us who would have been more sympathetic.
Whilst we may sometimes pretend otherwise up here nobody takes any pleasure from an English region losing its distinctive identity but I feel SoH put themselves in the position of the farmer who wishes to borrow a wheelbarrow in that old joke.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,StevenPiper
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 01:57 PM

I agree with Alec in the above post, but with respects to "slating other cultures" this isn't done in the song, I was referring to the American Pie/American rap lines which were attacking those who don't appreciate English culture. Personally I love English culture and think we need to do everything we can to preserve regional identities, but the way to do this is not to criticise 'natives' who appreciate other cultures. It reminds me of the protesters a few years ago who went around giving everyone who bought a foreign car grief because they 'should have been buying British'. There is no moral obligation to buy into a particular culture simply because of the piece of land you happen to have been born on and for me at least I think we should be selling English culture in a positive way rather than engaging in bitter rants.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 02:39 PM

Points accepted, Alec & Steve. And agreed also about there being no moral obligation to buy into a particular culture for whatever reason. As for selling English culture with positive messages, I see it is presenting examples to follow; this does not take away the value of examples to avoid - the "whingeing". Both have a place, and neither is sufficient on its own. Because unless you articulate the problem, you cannot address it, and seeing only the positive side of things can lead to blind alleys, despite the feelgood factor.

I can understand people being fed up with too much whingeing, but I hope they won't get defensive about what is wrong, either.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 02:54 PM

Oops -sorry about the blank post, hit a wrong key.

Am I missing something? Is the song longer than the verses at the start of this thread as I can see no derogatory references to Northumbria?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Alec
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 03:00 PM

From Tyne to Tamar....

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 06:35 PM

I clearly am missing something - I thought it referred to a river in the far north of England and another in the far south west, i.e. the greatest distance between two major rivers and still be within England. I'm not particualarly keen on it as a song, and wouldn't want to learn it, but I hadn't noticed offensive anything in it!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 12:03 PM

"I clearly am missing something - I thought it referred to a river in the far north of England and another in the far south west, i.e. the greatest distance between two major rivers and still be within England. I'm not particualarly keen on it as a song, and wouldn't want to learn it, but I hadn't noticed offensive anything in it!"

I hadn't seen any slight on Northumbria either, but now Alec has made that comment I realise that Steve might have better said Tweed, if he were including all of Northumberland. The Cornish (ie West of Tamar) might argue whether they are or aren't in England, but most folk living North of the Tyne would probably say they are (at least South of the border).

But hey, Steve started to lose me at line about the song about Buddy Holly and the 1960s and he definitely lost me when he decided he didn't like how all my family speak. Fortunately I still like lots of his other songs. Indeed I still quite like Roots itself, even if I do mildly grimace at several of the lines.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:09 AM

"Certainly the politics behind the song makes it hard to enjoy"

How many Folk songs don't have politics behind them? I think the Folk music genre wouldn't have many songs in it at all politics wasn't a part of it. Maybe you confusing it with a pop song?