BS: Novel by a dead woman

Subject: BS: Dead woman's novel
From: GUEST, Baffled
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:47 PM

About 15 years ago I found a novel in some things I bought at an auction. At the time, I got the feeling the items came from the estate of a dead woman. Anyway, I stored the manuscript (some pages printed, some xeroxed), and it turned up again last week. I read it, searched the internet for the writer's name, didn't find any connection. Searched the character names, nothing. Copyright office database, she never copyrighted it that way, though it is copyrighted when created, yadda, yadda.

I held onto the manuscript because I'd hate to destroy the only copy of someone's novel, but now I don't know what to do with it. I guess I could scan it and burn it onto disc, in case the dog ever eats a page.

It looks like the woman was never published, but she dedicated the book to her children. If she really had children (doubt is cast over the legitimacy of the dedication by events within the story), but if she had kids maybe they'd want this. Or maybe it's worth $$$ that they could use. Don't know how to proceed. Any ideas?

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:50 PM

Latter Day Saints (Mormons) keep a HUGE geneology library in Salt Lake City. Might be worth asking them about the author.

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 01:06 AM

LSD Ancestor Hunt might find something if there are at least one or two "dead people" that can be identified.

Living persons are not generally published in genealogical data/sites, so identifying the author may not give you much help with locating living descendants/survivors.

If it's not too remote for you to make contacts, the place of death might lead to a mortuary with a record, and a place of burial might show who paid for the burial plot. A newspaper record/obit would likely list survivors, but there are few places where you can find them without paying fees.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: autolycus
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 02:11 AM

Get a little return on your taxes and visit the nearest decent-sized public library. Ask in the reference section if they can give you any leads on the author.

   The refence section is there and paid for by all of us to answer any question we ave,or , failing that, point us in the direction of where our question can be addressed.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: Grab
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:17 AM

Two questions. What's it about? And is it any good?

The first is just out of curiosity. But the second might be a major element of whether it's worth the hassle of tracking down the kids.

I guess it's also an interesting legal question. Unpublished MS sold at auction; does that give you ownership of the copyright for the novel, or just ownership of the pages it's written on...?

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:28 AM

According to his own introduction to the novel, Hawthorne found the manuscript of "The Scarlet Letter" in the bottom of the drawer of the office he worked in (the "Custom House" in Salem). Didn't stop him from taking credit for it, though!

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:36 AM

Ah, I wondered what happened to Granny's old novel manuscript. But you can keep it, if I can have 50% of the royalties.

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:45 AM

I had a similar situation once - I knew exactly who the author was but it was pretty clear any family he had didn't care. I just edited the thing and put selections from it on my website:

http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/Oddities/anorak.html

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: Amos
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:12 AM

If it had merit, and you had no luck finding the author's legatees, what you could do is slap a fictitious forward to it and publish it as "Novel by a Dead Woman" or some such catchy title.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:40 AM

If it wasn't published then there probably isn't a copyright question to deal with.

Consider the numbers of unpublished novels out there and consider the reason. Some haven't found the right niche, but most stink.

If you own an unpublished work then I'd hazard the guess that it is yours to do with what you wish.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: GUEST,Baffled
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 12:39 PM

No mention of the author being published anywhere--none that I can find at least. I looked at the LDS site last night and didn't find the woman's name, not in the "free" section, at least. Moira Kearney is the name of the author (according to the title page), but then the first person narrator (Christina Parker Ross) of the story says it isn't fiction at all, and "her children" are her other books, etc. That's why I'm baffled. I assume this is a work of fiction written by Moira Kearney, but if she had actual children then that may have been her married name. The story takes place in the U.S., but in 3-4 places in the manuscript she uses British phrasing ("in hospital" instead of "in the hospital" and so on). So would I check in the U.K. as well?

There was no other paperwork (birth, death certificates and such) found with the manuscript, but the antique furniture she owned was the kind you don't just walk away from. Something happened to her, and the general feeling was that she had died.

Good suggestions. And yes, I enjoyed the novel. Good characterization and interesting story. Writing was precise and grammar was good, but then compared to mine, most is.

Been a while since a new Shakespeare's turned up. I'll see what else I have stored away.

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 02:29 PM

You could post a query on the Kearney genealogy site at Genforum. It's free.

As an author, I would be sad if I knew my stuff was never read. I hope you will find a way to share it, either with good legal advice and/or with the permission of any family you may find.

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:57 PM

I believe the law is, just because you own the original doesn't mean you own the right to make copies (which is what "copyright" means).

I once read an article that explained copyright law as it applies to private letters. Suppose a famous person writes you a letter. You, the recipient, then own the letter. You can sell it, hang it on your wall, put it on display in a public place (such as a museum)—but no one can make copies of it and publish the copies without the permission of the writer or his heirs.

An exception would be a "letter to the editor." It is assumed that anyone who writes a letter addressed to the "editor" of a publication is giving permission to publish it.

I suppose the same principle applies to any written material.

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:24 PM

Where's the novel set? Maybe you could write to the local paper and ask for help?

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: GUEST,Baffled
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:32 PM

Yeah, she owns the copyright, or her estate does. I'd just like to pass the manuscript on to her family.

I got the thing before the internet developed, or I would have done the searches long ago. Didn't think of it until I rediscovered the ms a few days ago. Now I'll check out the Genforum and see what I learn. Thanks for the lead.

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: GUEST,Baffled
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:36 PM

Oh, the setting. Somewhere on the east coast of the U.S. On the coast, the ocean, but no precise place mentioned. She mentions major cities, but there's no clue there. I think the suggestion...by katlaughing above...about posting on genealogy forums will be the way to go. Someone will recognize her name. I'll post to this thread if the thing is resolved. Thanks for the ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 09:41 AM

If you bought the manuscript, you own it. It wasn't published. I think you'll find there are distinctions here that make this not your usual copyright question. I think you could publish it with her name on it, no problem. If you published it with your name on it, that might be less ethicial, but I know of people who do that all of the time. It's called ghost writing.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 09:49 AM

Whoever the woman is or was, she or her heirs own the copyright, whether or not it was ever published before.

So publishing it under your own (or anyone else's) name, instead of her's, would be a breach of copyright.

But I don't see why you shouldn't publish it under her own name, as you seem to know what that is.

Knowing her name ought to make it easier to trace her - I didn't realise from your original posting that you knew her name.

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: Bee
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 10:12 AM

Is this her real name, though, or just a nom de plume? I'm a bit baffled as to why, if the OP got the manuscript at an auction where the woman's furniture was also being auctioned, contact with the holders of the auction wouldn't furnish a lot of information. I'm sure they keep records, at least of the address of the possessions being sold, the particulars of the receiver of any proceeds, etc. Often, also, estate auctions are held at the estate.

Having the address of the woman's final home would make it possible to see if she was the owner of the house, and thereafter, who inherited it. I think that is all publicly available information.

Women's names are tricky; they may or may not be married names, and are often hard to trace.

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 10:17 AM

Women's names are tricky

And it's not just their names... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:30 AM

Consider the numbers of unpublished novels out there and consider the reason. Some haven't found the right niche, but most stink.

SRS, if you've time could you please elaborate just a little on what, in your professional opinion, might distinguish a "stinky" novel from, uh, a pleasingly fragrant one?

Thanks very much,

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 02:44 PM

Ask the question of any reader for publication houses, I'm sure the examples are legion. It's amazing how many still manage to make it to publication. "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 03:40 PM

If you published it with your name on it, that might be less ethicial, but I know of people who do that all of the time. It's called ghost writing.

It is my understanding that ghost writers are contracted and thus are not doing anything unethical. In fact, ghost writers usually do not put their name to what they write under contract as such; the person whom they are writing for usually has their name down as "author."

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: GUEST,Baffled
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:05 PM

If I had to guess, I would say this is a novel in need of editing. It's a pretty tight story, but a publisher might find some things that need fixing. That's why I couldn't submit it as my own--it would need revising. And it's a dark book about death and destruction, so I'd have to add a couple of prat falls. And those long philosophical discussions without any puns...

I'd get busted in the re-write phase, so I just want to forward it to the family.

I've definitely bought bound books that I enjoyed less, and I thought while I was reading them that they should've been bound and gagged.

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 02:07 AM

I've definitely bought bound books that I enjoyed less, and I thought while I was reading them that they should've been bound and gagged.

Exactly.

What I suggest is the issue here is the lack of publication of the novel. That's where the rubber meets the road, where the work is validated. Publication is the consummation, the act that sets many things into motion. The person who owns the manuscript at this point, owns the novel. He can protect the copyright by publishing it, however he wants. He's not interfering with a published work. If the family sold the manuscript, knowing or unknowing, they still don't own it, and don't have a claim on the copyright or proceeds. I dare say that if someone were to take something like personal letters and publication is pending, then the original writer or his heirs could at that point negotiate with the one who wants to publish, because there are certain things understood about private communications such as letters. I think they are possibly different that something that is called a novel.

If a work is old enough to be out of copyright, then anyone can publish it, and they can protect their version, though someone else can also publish it, and protect their different version. The annotations, introductions, edits, etc. The scholarship that goes into the text, for example, makes that book a separate work, and the copyright clock starts all over again.

It's not like I don't know what I'm talking about. I am sure there are ways the family could impact the publication, were they to learn of it. They might be proud to see it happen, they might not. Someone might claim that it is an assassination of the character of one of the author's family members, for example, and threaten to sue the deep pockets of the publisher. So you as owner would have to decide if this is a threat or a bluff. I had a friend who was pilloried in a novel by a disappointed lover; after the affair ended badly she wrote a vicious story set in their city and workplace, he was thinly disguised, assuring that all would recognize him. Rather than face the humiliation and the breakup of his family, he took his own life when he learned a publisher had accepted it. His wife confronted the publisher, once she knew the whole wrenching story, and the author was compelled to change some of that novel, particularly the part in which she named and described his children. She still took a lot of swings at the wife. My friend was not such a good friend after all, I found, and he was mentally ill. He had created a golem of his wife to scare the world away from his family. They had never met her, yet detested her, and would not warn her about the novel. My friendship predated his bad behavior, and I was the one to wade in and alert the wife, once I learned of the manuscript from one of his coworkers. So, a book about death and destruction? You may want to do a little fact checking before you chuck it over the transome. The woman who wrote the novel had a contract, it was published but never promoted and was remaindered so fast I'm sure it made her head spin. She hasn't appeared in print since. (Just so you know the rest of the story.)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 11:48 AM

The problem will be getting the publishing deal for the sequel :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 03:32 PM

Do like they did with J.R.R. Tolkien's big novel--break it into three and publish separately.

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: GUEST,Baffled
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 08:48 PM

Damn. That's quite a story in itself, about the publication, the death and all. I guess I could just go through and put rubber noses on some of the characters. That should disguise them. Then in the sequel I'd just say the first book was all a dream and have one of the characters relate the story again, verbatim.

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 09:36 PM

|:o)

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 06:45 AM

Interesting story, SRS, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: GUEST,Copyright Sage
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 01:59 PM

You're getting some misinformation about copyright here. In the U.S., owning the manuscript does not mean you own the rights to it. It doesn't matter whether the author ever registered her copyright with the LOC or published the book. The rights to do anything with it remain the property or her, or her estate or heirs, for her lifetime plus 70 years. I assume that if her worldly goods were being sold when you purchased the manuscript 15 years ago, you've only got 60 years more to wait.

Your heart's in the right place. Seek her family and give it to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 01:14 PM

I disagree. If one purchases an unpublished manuscript, the rules are different. If the guest, who borrowed part of my moniker, wants to be believed, discuss it as a member and offer some citations.

This is an extensive site with lots of legal opinion regarding copyright. It might be a good starting point for you.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 07:17 PM

I always thought that's what "The Bridges of Madison County" was. The guy who was accredited with it never seemed to be able to do much of anything before or since. I can't help but wonder if somebody else wrote the book, like maybe his mother.

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: GUEST,Baffled
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 07:58 PM

Well, whatever the legalities, I've just printed out 3 letters to 3 women with the name. From internet sources. One of them may be the writer, her mother or daughter. I've asked them for some detail about the book, to verify. Maybe it will be as simple as that. If she's published and it's the long-lost copy of the last book of her million-selling trilogy, maybe I'll ask a finder's fee.

Isn't it the rule in songwriting that once you perform it, it's copyrighted? Technically, once you "create" it.

Thanks for the input. I'll see what the letters bring.

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: GUEST,Cait
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 04:11 PM

Fascinating-can't wait for the up-date!

Subject: RE: BS: Novel by a dead woman
From: Scrump
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 10:17 AM

It's possible (or even likely?) that the existence of the manuscript is unknown to any of the deceased author's relatives. So if you were a cheat, you could just publish it under a false name (which would be a pen-name for yourself), then claim all the royalties yourself. Mwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! (maniacal laughter)