BS: I need a good lawyer

Subject: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 07:48 PM

My mom left a fair number of 1972 Macintosh Apple computer stocks in a safe deposit box that was claimed by the NYS Comptroller after her death.

The stock had split 4 times to date.

I checked the box for the original documents to be sent to me. I completed all the paperwork But to cash them I would still have to apply to NYS to put them in my name.

I called repeatedly to be sure the original documents would be sent to avoid

The NYS State Comptroller illegally cashed them at face value and cut me a check for pennies instead of 5 figures.


I think I need a good lawyer.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:04 PM

Well, maybe a financial advisor first, Donuel. I don't believe stocks have a "face value," and you can't really "cash" them - you sell them. Could they have been bonds?
Somehow, I think you have some information mixed up. NYS is New York State, I assume? Do you have photocopies of what you sent in?
I don't believe there ever was such a thing as "Apple MacIntosh Computer" stock. MacIntosh is a brand name of Apple Corporation, introduced sometime much later than 1972.
Was Apple in business in 1972? Was Steve Jobs out of diapers?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Nickhere
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:13 PM

You sure do. Those rotten so-and-sos at the NYS seem to have robbed you thoroughly. If they owe you a lot of money, it should be no difficult matter to engage a good lawyer on the basis of a percentage of the repayments due to you. Apple have been doing REALLY well of late by the way, and I'd imagine your stocks ought to have been worth a lot.

BTW - I think a phrase or two are missing from your post:
"I called repeatedly to be sure the original documents would be sent to avoid...."

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:17 PM

Thanks Joe,

ITs Apple, I said Macintosh computer to clarify and not muddle.

When I say cash in I mean sell.

They were stocks and not bonds.

My mother bought the first offering right after they bought the first Macintosh word processor. NYS Comptroller office had the original stocks with the date on them.

I am not certain of the precise date since I was never shown the stocks. But I knew of their exixtence back in the seventies.

I am certain that the stock has split 4 times (Doubling each time) since it was first issued. For example if there were 5 stocks, after 4 splits there would be(10, 20 40...) 80!.

If NYS gave them to a broker to sell, they must have known the stock had doubled after each split. I don't know if they pocketed the money. All I know is that they sold them without permission after holding them 8 years

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:18 PM

The first Apple computer came out in 1976.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:19 PM

Donuel, I believe you are mistaken either about the stock or the date. Please see this reference:

Beginnings of Apple Computer

The company wasn't even formed until 1976. there is a link there to the full history which is much more detailed. if you have stocks dated 1972 - they cannot be Apple Computers.

I do hope you kept photocopies.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:22 PM

The first Mac was 1984. Apple stock had already been around for a while by then, though. If you are the sole heir, or the executor of your mother's estate, then it should be a piece of cake for a lawyer to right the matter with a single letter.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:26 PM

...to avoid any confusion I told them to SEND ME THE ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS, that way I can acess their true worth after all the splits and not just let some bozo sell them at face value.



so what did they do, they sold them at face value (even less than face value).

I do not even know if the stocks exist anymore or if a photocopy was ever made.

They were in my Mothers name, not mine. It was wrong for NYS to sell them. It was wrong of NYS to sell them at the wrong value

and if they knew what they were doing and kept all but the face value check they sent me it is was criminal.

They must be making millions this way.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:27 PM

You're right. You need a good lawyer.


Punitive damages added in.


A

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: bobad
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:30 PM

"Apple was founded on April 1, 1976 by Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak and Ronald Wayne[11] (and later incorporated January 3, 1977[12] without Wayne, who sold his share of the company back to Jobs and Wozniak) to sell the Apple I personal computer kit. "

Wikipedia

1980: Apple Goes Public

In the largest IPO since Ford went public in 1956, Apple debuts on the stock market with a valuation of $1.8 billion. Of Apple's 1,000 employees, more than 40 became instant millionaires thanks to their stock options.

http://www.macworld.com/2006/03/features/30moments/index.php

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:37 PM

I never saw the date. I only knew they were as old as their first word processor.

Amos I sure hope so but Without the original documents I have no proof of their date.
I am afraid that once they were sold they no longer exist but I do not know.

For 8 years I had hoped our good fortune would be put to good use and now I have virtually nothing to show except a check that wouldn't buy a set of tires. I am depressed.

As for my father's estate, the caretaker managed to steal a 350K trust and the house.

Honestly it seems everyone is such a crook that my honest dollar is worth only 3 cents.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:41 PM

She definetly had an Apple in the seventies.

I hate being crass about money, but this incident was one bash too many.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:50 PM

Donuel, New York State will have to have kepot a record of the sale. I would suggest not allowing yourself to get too tied up in knots about this. the State stands to gain MORE from the taxes you would pay on any valuable stock than they do by perhaps selling them for less than they are worth. What you need is a good PROBATE attorney and not some random laywer. Your mother's family attorney should have records of her assets and even if he/she didn't, a full invenbtory would have been made if she died intestate. Please see a probate attorney ASAP and discuss it with them.

How is it your mom came to be involved in a such an early stock sale? Did she or your father know insiders at Apple? If so, they might be able to furnish you with records of the sale of the stock. Paperwork exists elsewhere. Stock cannot go poof. Trust me. Either you will find out your original beliefs are true and get to the bottom of it or you will discover you were sadly mistaken. The sticks cannot be sold for pennies. I'll be praying for you.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:54 PM

The stock certificates still have to exist after the sale. They would be in the possession of whoever purchased them.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 09:35 PM

How did the stock certificates come into the possession of New York State to begin with ? Did they confiscate the contents of your mother's safe deposit box before you got to it ?

                                           SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 09:39 PM

That's what appears has happened. i presume she died without a will since if she had a will, it would be the Executor who had the right to the contents of the box and not the State.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 09:42 PM

Dave's wife, god bless you, that sounds like sound advice.

She had a will but my step father probated it and I signed over everything to him. When he died I was executor.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 09:52 PM

My parents were writers. They traded in their IBM selctric typwriter as soon as the first Apple word processor came out.

IT was amazingly crude compared to today but they loved it.

My mom recieved something like 1/3000th of an oil well estate in 1977 that belonged to her mother's first husband which amounted to 14K. She was thrilled to have a bit of money for the first time that was entirely hers. IT was about that time she bought her first shares in anything.


All of my mother and father's unpublished manuscripts and books were destroyed by the caretaker who thought she could claim my father's entire estate. She complained about how many garbage bags it took to throw away all those papers.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 09:56 PM

When your step father died you became exeutor. If that is the case you should have had posession of the stock certificates. Who then turned them over to New York State and authorized the sale ? There is something missing here that I do not understand.

                                           SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 09:59 PM

I did not know about the safe deposit box. When the bank box rent payment stopped the bank gives it to the State.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 10:00 PM

I found out about the box by doing a free unclaimed funds search.
Plugged in the names and voila.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 10:01 PM

Don...this site is by the man who WROTE the original Apple Writer word processing program in 1977...and for 8 years thereafter. He 'might' have some insight or information about the company from back then....he made a LOT of money from it.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 10:30 PM

If the funds or stock certificates were unclaimed they were forfeited to the State. Once they became the property of the State they have the right to dispose of them in any manner they see fit. The stupid clerk in the comptrollers office who handled the sale probably did not realize what kind of value he was dealing with and sold them at face value. And why should he ?
The proceeds were not going into his pocket. The question now becomes " Did the statute of limitations expire for you to claim these certificates ?" If so, the State had every legal right to take possession and sell them. Since you are dealing with New York State you need, not only a good probate lawyer but one with good political connections. The Judges who are appointed to the Surrogate courts that handle these matters are picked for who they know rather than for what they know. It is a political plum given out for party loyalty rather that for competence.

                                       SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 10:40 PM

Hey Bill tonight I was driving down Rockville Pike at the time when all train traffic was stopped. I did not know the reason at first when I saw dozens of anxious commuters on their cell phones lining the sides of the Pike. Then I saw hundreds of people walking down Rockville Pike then nearly a thousand.

It turned out a train had a suspicious package and everyone was thrown off their trains at rush hour.

................

Sky watching this month I noted only one perfectly blue chem trail free sky. The spraying has been as heavy as I have ever seen it.
We are all sneezing and have general respiratory discomfort.

One day the grid pattern that was sprayed numbered over 15 lines from horizon to horizon in a near perfect checker board pattern.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 11:30 PM

I've scanned procedures for handling unclaimed safe deposit boxes and stocks from a number of states(though not NY)--none handle things in any way similar to the way you have described. They tend to hold the materials and assets for eventual return to the box holders or their heirs.

They are generally required to keep records of the contents of the box, as well as the costs associated with holding and managing the contents. You could start out by requesting copies of all their records, and proceed from there.

As to the stock, Apple keeps records of their shareholders stake, and details on the date acquired and sold. Call them. There are laws governing the exchange of shares of public stocks, and it is unlikely that they could have been sold for anything other than their market value on the day they were sold.

Given that Apple went public in 1980, it would have been impossible for the stocks to have been older than that--also, Apple never really made a "word processor", per se--

Given that you didn't know about the safe deposit box, I am curious to know how you came to know what was in it--

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 02:33 AM

The doom-laden legal advice being offered above doesn't sound right. It wouldn't be right in England. Heric, where are you? Does anyone know who he actually is? I can't PM him as he isn't a member.

First step should be was there a will. If so there should have been an executor. Then chain of executorship applies.

If no will, then there should have been an administrator. If there was a surviving spouse, it should have been the surviving spouse, if not children (if more than one, jointly unless the others were "cleared off"). Once an administrator is appointed then the adminstratorship will pass to the executors or adminstrators of that administrator, but if one wasn't then if the potential adminstrator dies the next in line becomes entitled.

Executor's authority speaks from death, adminstrator's from appointment. In either case there should be a grant - on the one hand of probate, on the other of letters of adminstration.

This much I think flows fromthe common heritage of UK and US law and sounds familiar from when one of my partners was involved in the film rights flowing from the literary estate of an American author - the first place I hear the ugly coinage "perstirpetally" as the adverbial form of the latin expression "per stirpes".

If the stuff was "stock" then unless they were bearer shares (uncommon) then the company should have records of ownership. In England (until the new act comes in) it would have been obligatory.

The facts need clear and accurate elucidation. I for one am unclear what is meant by "caretaker" above, in context. And the other bits are somehow incoherent.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 01:00 PM

Hi Richard yes I'm here, thanks, but I'm with you: I don't understand the facts. And being on the West Coast, I'm almost as far away as you are from NY law. On top of it all, I don't know much about how property escheats (if it did), or estate administration. Someone in NY can get to the bottom of this. M.Ted seems to be on the right course.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 02:34 PM

Since neither your stepfather nor you were aware of this box prior to its "abandonment," I get the impression (from NY Abandoned Property Law section 300(1)(d))that it would have been the bank, not the Comptroller, that sold the safety deposit box contents.

If the proceeds from the sale of this property had already made to the state's unclaimed property list, I don't understand who gave you forms to access the box's contents, or why. It seems that the contents should have been long gone by then.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 02:54 PM

oops I read it wrong - Securities, IF they remain unsold by the bank, can apparently be forwarded to the State. Follow Dave's Wife's advice and let us know what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 03:24 PM

It still doesn't sound right to me.

Unless the shares were bearer shares (which I know are more common in the USA than here) all the certificates were was paper. The true ownership of shares (perhaps subject to trust obligations or claims but that is another story) is (in the UK) determined by the state of the register kept by the company. The shares (the bundle of rights comprised in share ownership) would not have become bona vacantia simply for lack of evidence of an owner. If there was a will then they vested in the executor ex officio. If not then in the UK technically they would have vested in the Public Trustee (precisely to stop them becoming bona vacantia) pending the appointment of an administrator.

Once I got a grant de bonis non adminstratis in respect of rights that had lain unadministered in an estate since 1911. There was no suggestion that the rights had become bona vacantia. It was only one wrinkle of a film rights case that was the first one in which I had to deal substantially with pre-1911 UK copyright law...

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: danensis
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 04:32 PM

Isn't "a good lawyer" an oxymoron?

John

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 04:37 PM

If anyone asks me if I am a good lawyer, I say "Obviously not - I'm still doing it."

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: GUEST,not a good lawyer
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 09:47 PM

I found two capitalization stock certificates once. From 1900. Start-up stock for an Alaskan oil venture. I pictured a hundred stock splits, mergers with Texaco, Exxon, and so on, so I paid to have the trace done. They were payable to the bearer, so while I waited for the results of the search I got fairly paranoid. After all, I could have been sitting on a billion dollars worth of oil stocks. I wondered if the tracing company was going to send out a hit team to kill me and steal the stocks.

Today I can't even recall what I did with those worthless scraps.

Good luck.

Ugly story about the manuscripts. People (like the "caretaker") never cease to amaze me.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 10:11 PM

For those trying to follow the story:

1.Donuel's mother passed away some time ago, his stepfather was her executor and handled the probate for her estate.
2. it seems he was unaware of the safety deposit box and its contents.
3.Why he was unaware is rather odd since her assets would have been listed in her will if she had one. Whatever - he didn't know or he knew and it slipped his mind - these things do happen
4.These alleged stocks (and we don't even know for sure what they are since history vis a vis Apple Computers stock offerings clashes with Donuel's memory) should have been part of her estate. But, since her estate was handled by someone else, Donuel doesn't know how they figured in the big picture.

next:
5. Donuel's stepdad passes away and his estate is settled by someone else
6. Donuel searching one of those unclaimed funds sites, discovers a listing for a safety deposit in his mother's name that has been claimed by the State of New York

From here on it gets murky -

7.Donuel believes the contents were sold and sold at an inapproriate price although the liklihood of this happening is not high due to the way unclaimed funds are handled.
8. Something appears to have happened to them and Donuel just wants to find out what, why, how and is he gonna see any money from this - money his mom wanted him to have eventually - money they discussed ages ago.

Now, Donuel is clearly confused but it's understandable that he is. The reversion of unclaimed funds and accounts to the States where they reside is a complex process.

Donuel believes the following:
1. That his mother had initial stock offering stock certificates for "Apple Computers" dated 1972. (Apple did not go public until 1980 as described above) he admits he could be foggy on the date.
2. That the State has already sold these and sold them at an insanely low price

What I think has happened is this:
1. Donuel is mistaken about either:
   A. The company the stocks come from
   B. Their value
    C. Both A & B

or
2. Donuel is right about the company but wrong about the date

Are you following this flow chart?

So, Donuel needs:
1. a good Probate Lawyer, preferabbly one with good political connections in NYS (that means a republican in Albany NY)
2. A copy or link to the relevant law on the way the State of New York can handle the contents of presumed abandoned Safety Deposit boxes.

That's the gist of it.

So, Anyone know a good republican probate lawyer in Albany NY? I say Albany because it's the State Capitol and it might be easier for a lawyer there to interact with the State. Since the State of New York has been and is still in the hands of republicans, a republican laywer would be best bet. I know a high profile criminal attonrey in Albany who is a republican, but not a probate attorney. i could call his office and ask for a recommendation. Would you like me to do that Donuel? I'd be happy to give it a shot.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: heric
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 11:00 PM

What about the checker board pattern?

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 11:01 PM

Daves Wife,
            Elliot Spitzer who is a Democrat is now Governor of New York State and was elected by a landslide. Ditto with the Attorney General (Andrew Cuomo). The Assembly has a Democratic majority and is contolled by long term Speaker Sheldon Silver. Only the State Senate, presided over by Joe Bruno remains in Republican hands. So therefore a Republican attorney is not a necessity. It can be a Democrat too as long as he knows someone.

                                              SOL

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 12:40 AM

oh my -I am sooo behind the times. Well, now that the Dems are in power, that makes it so much easier for me! (hehe) When i was a grad student in Albany, i knew many up and coming Dems who are now big deals. Still, that republican criminal lawyer I know is gonna get a phone call from me tommorow. i used to babysit his children. he's been in Albany and well-connected since the early 80s and has defended some very high profile corruption cases. I'm sure he knows who is connected and who isn't.

And good for Elliot Spitzer! He's got fire in his belly.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 07:44 AM

After being victimized several times this year I need all the help I can get.

My probate lawyer turned out to have a conflict of interests with my fathers caretaker.

Being swindled by a lawyer is easy, no matter what party they belong to. When it comes to money there is nothing a dishonest person will not try.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 11:46 AM

Donuel,
         Here is my recomendation. Ryan Scott Karben, office at 1 - Melaney Drive, Monsey, NY 10952. Phone [phone]

He is a former State Assemblyman and Rockland County Legislator. He is a Democrat, very well connected, and has a reputation for getting things done. He has hosted fundraisers for Gov Elliott Spitzer and knows his way around Albany. He fights very hard for his clients, especially the small person seeking justice as in your case.

Good Luck.
                                              SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 08:13 PM

Nothing to do with Donuel's predicament, but just for the record, my first encounter with Apple computers was in 1979, and the model was the Apple iie (I think it was "iie" as opposed to "11e"

At the time, this was state of the art. 48k memory would you believe. It certainly impressed me.

In some ways I still hanker after these days when you had to be able to do a bit of BASIC programming in order to get the machine to do anything ...

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 08:14 PM

So, Donual... Didja ever get yer situation figured out???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 04:06 AM

Hi, I bought a British blue kitten a week ago (female). Wanted it as a pet, so didn't worry about papers. Seller got my address and phone number off me when I was leaving, saying she would forward the kittens family history. I paid £300 for it, £200 less than those sold with pedigree GCCF Registered papers.

She asked me if I intended to get her neutered, I said yes. Thought about it today, I now may allow her a litter with a suitable British Blue male.

Seller rang me tonight and said, "she meant to get me to sign a contact before I left, also to sign something informing her that I will forward proof that the vet has neutered the cat."

I don't like contracts at the best of times, but I wasn't asked to sign anything prior to paying her (cash in hand), and no contract was even spoken about at the time. I looked up kitten contracts tonight and they are scary, (owner can reclaim cat if you attempt to sell it on or breed it).

I am aware this lady breeds several pairs of British Blues and also claims state welfare, so clearly she isn't a GCCF Registered Breeder otherwise would have stated this. It is a cash in hand cottage industry which she clearly is not declaring, she asked me to bring cash on collection.

If she calls back again, I am going to ask her to forward me her contact so I can have my solicitor look it over and include her GCCF registration. I also intend to tell her I plan to take out vet insurance as it is tax deductible and for her to send me a headed bill of sale signed and dated for the amount of £300 pounds so I can submit it for tax deduction.

I really don't want her pestering me with phone calls and visits, I gave her the asking price in cash, she never at any point spoke of contracts during my visit and collection of the kitten. At the same time I don't want to fall out with her.

Any advise would be gratefully received.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 05:31 AM

I am aware this lady breeds several pairs of British Blues and also claims state welfare, so clearly she isn't a GCCF Registered Breeder otherwise would have stated this. It is a cash in hand cottage industry which she clearly is not declaring, she asked me to bring cash on collection.

You might want to consider the Tax Avoidance helpline? 0800 788 887

If the deal was 'cash-in-hand' I cannot see how the seller can now insist on you signing a cotract that was not signed at the time. However, the seller might try witholding the promised 'family history'.
The cash in hand status also could make it difficult if (& I hope this is not the case) the cat has any congenital/hereditary problems.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 05:33 AM

Sorry, Tax Avoidance helpline number should be 0800 788 887.

If a mud-elf could correct it in the above post I would be greatful.

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 05:42 AM

Thank you so much Nigel for takig the time to reply. That is a big help.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 06:54 AM

Guest, I assume you are in the UK since you refer to the GCCF.

This is a lovely offer and acceptance/consideration question. These are technical issues of English contract law. It all depends on the order in which things happened. If I get the order right (it all depends on that) I think it works out like this:

You went to see the kitten. No contract so far.

You discussed the kitten, the price and the pedigree papers. No contract so far.

At some point the seller asked you if you were going to breed the cat.

That must have been in the context of the pedigree papers because the main reason for having pedigree papers is to be able to register the progeny.

Whatever was said in those discussions COULD have amounted to representations, but I don't plan to go there as in context I think the relevant things will have become part of a contract, see below.

It can (surely) only have been after that that one of you said "£300?" and the other said "OK".

At that point a contract came into being. Nothing said after that can be part of that contract - and it can only be part of a later additional contract.

The express terms were cat, £300, no breeding, no papers.

What about implied terms? The seller it seems is in trade breeding cats. I think a cat must be "goods" for the purposes of the Sale of Goods Act. So by S. 14 (2) there is an implied term that the cat must be fit for "all the purposes for which goods of the kind in question are commonly supplied". It is settled law that "goods" include instructions and that would I suggest apply in the case of a pedigree animal to its pedigree. But see S 14(3) - the implied term does not apply to matter "which is specifically drawn to the buyer's attention before the contract is made". So that doesn't help you get the papers.

Did you make a collateral contract as you were leaving - to the effect that she would send on the papers? No. The reason is this. You already had a contract (see above). To make a new contract there would need to be "fresh consideration" - in this case something in it for the seller as well as something in it for you. There are new-ish cases about "practical benefit" but I don't think they affect it.

Upshot - there is no contract for her to send you the papers. There is a contract for you not to breed the cat, but it's oral and proving it might be difficult.

This is not solicitor-client legal advice and no duty of care is accepted.

Subject: RE: BS: Cats
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 06:55 AM

GUEST, You could try contacting ths GCCF and ask them for their advice. Also, there may be a GCCF judge of British Blues in your area who will advise you, and may want to know all about this woman! I would say that, as the cat isn't registered with GCCF it's no good as breeding stock for showing etc as copies of full pedigree charts have usually to be issued with kittens or when at stud. I would say that this person has no rights over your decision to neuter or not, nor of your right to breed from your cat, as no contract was entered into and nothing was signed. She doesn't even have proof that you bought the cat from her in a cash sale. But if you DO decide to breed, your kittens will have a limited sale value as they're not registered, neither will they have a Pedigree cert. I used to show British blue cats and have always had pedigree stock reg with GCCF. I now have Siamese, again from reg breeders. You may find that your cat has another breed in its genes (quite common, as 'breeding out' is a recognised practice) If a British Blue, she may have British Black in her, and her kittens may be a mixture. (Quite above board) I would say, it's well worth the extra cost to obtain a GCCF reg kitten from a reputable and official breeder, with all documentation handed over at purchase. I've often had to sign to say I will not breed from my kitten, but this has been under legal and professional conditions at point of sale. I envy you your little Blue, British cats are super!

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 08:17 AM

Richard Bridge.
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain this. To be honest, it is causing me some annoyance.
The lady advertised the kittens in local press in UK. I rang her and in the course of the conversation I asked were they registered, she said no, hence the price of £300.00, but assured me they were pure pedigree British Blues. I explained that suited me as I wanted a pet and companion, not a show cat or premier league breeding queen.

When I saw the kittens at her home, they were without doubt full bred (I grew up next door to a renowned breeder of British Blues and know the breed quite well).

I fully understood the terms, not a registered kitten, price £300.00 cash (she gave me a vets card showing it's date of birth and date of full inoculations without request from me).

After I gave her the £300.00, she asked to take it to a vet in a few weeks and have it neutered, I agreed verbally to this. Thinking about it now, what right had she to dictate terms to me, I paid her the asking price and entered into no written contract, to be honest, if she had asked me to sign anything before receiving the cat I would not have done it. I looked up cat contracts on the web and the seller basically owns the cat until death, not you.

Yes I verbally agreed to have the cat neutered, but now she is here, I would dearly love to allow her a litter, I am not making a career move to breeding perigee cats , allow her a litter with a suitable pedigree stud and then have her neutered.

As I left, the lady asked me for my full name and home address so she could forward the cats pedigree, I was surprised at this as I was under the impression she had no papers, she possibly meant no registration papers.

She phoned my home last night while I was out, she spoke with my husband, asking how it was settling in, then she told him she forgot to get me to sign a piece of paper agreeing to send her a document signed by my vet that the cat had been neutered.

She told my husband she may call to my home at some stage to see the kitten.

I don't want her calling to my home, I don't even care if she ever sends me the pedigree papers, at the same time I don't want to have a fall out with this lady and her creating problems for me.

Again thank you for your time Mr. Bridge.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 08:27 AM

"I fully understood the terms, not a registered kitten, price £300.00 cash (she gave me a vets card showing it's date of birth and date of full inoculations without request from me).

After I gave her the £300.00, she asked to take it to a vet in a few weeks and have it neutered, I agreed verbally to this"

This is a vital difference. It comes AFTER you made the main contract. Although you orally agreed that, there is no "consideration" for that as a contract to amend the main contract. You have no obligation to neuter the kitten.

Subject: RE: BS: I need a good lawyer
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 08:46 AM

Could this thread be redirected to Donual's case? I'm amazed at the "guest" above who had the nerve to hijack this thread, rather than starting a new one. And I'm also amazed that others responded.

Charley Noble