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The Mudcat Cafesj

User Name Thread Name Subject Posted
Nickhere BS: Israel Moves in. (1634* d) RE: BS: Israel Moves in. 19 Jan 09

Let's be fair here. A number of people rooting for Israel have made a similar point, I'll quote Robomatic simply by way of example:

"Israel attempted numerous times to arrive at a peace settlement with its neighbors who were states and with the Palestinians, starting right after the 1967 war. Most recently a prolonged effort was made with Yasir Arafat as the leader of both the Gazans and the West Bank, the Prime Minister of Israel, and President Clinton. These negotiations did not bear fruit primarilly because of Arafat. As has been said, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

One of the most recent major opportunities for peace was the offer made in 2002 in Beruit by the 22 members of Arab League, a group representing practically every Arab country in the region including the Palestinian authority. In return Israel had simply to agree to accept - not its 1948 - but its 1967 borders (which would still have represented an expansion on the original UN-mandated Jewish Homeland). This would have resulted in 'normalization of relations' such as happened with Egypt or Jordan. Isn't this what Israel always laments that it wants? So what happened?

Israel rejected this offer because it hasn't finished its expansion plans yet, which includes all the West Bank, Jerusalem and probably in time, Gaza as well, though given the barren clump of land it consists of it's less of a priority than the West Bank.

Similarly Israel rejected an offer of peace in return for abiding by the 2004 International Court of Justice ruling that its settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are illegal (and withdraw). True, its not a signatory but nonetheless what the court - representing international legal opinion - decided was offered as another basis for peace by Arabs.

Well unfortunately you can't have it both ways, Israel said 'no deal' and everyone went back to war, sort of. Perhaps Iran is supplying weapons to Hamas and Hizbullah, maybe Syria is tied up in something, Israel is definitely dropping bombs and so on, Hamas and / or one of the other splinter groups are firing rockets.

It is my opinion that Israel recklessly squandered those (whatever happened squillions of billions of years ago) possibly not-to-be repeated chances for real lasting peace because it is greedy for land. I'm sorry but fair is fair. You cannot lay all the blame on the Arabs for what's been going on. Indeed some people have pointed out that the Israeli townships near the border with Gaza (Ashkelon etc.,) are in fact on land owned by palestinians and not actually in Israel at all. Though this can be disputed endlessly both ways the root causes are undeniable.

Israel's goals are incompatible - it wants the land of other people by force but says it also wants peace at the same time. Indeed the one clear implication of its goals is that in fact it is Palestinian Gaza and the West Bank that will be 'wiped off the map' ceasing to be delineated as borders on the world map, but annexed as part of Israel. Pro-Israeli supporters at this NY rally admitted as much -

"Right in front of the stage, a man held a banner reading, "Islam Is A Death Cult." Rally attendees described the people of Gaza to me as a "cancer," called for Israel to "wipe them all out," insisting, "They are forcing us to kill their children in order to defend our own children." A young woman told me, "Those who die are suffering God's wrath." "They are not distinguishing between civilians and military, so why should we?" said a member of the group of messianic Orthodox Jewish Chabad-Lubavitch group that flocked to the rally"

(You'll need to register with the news provider to read the whole article which is why I pasted a short extract here)


Calls to 'wipe out' Palestinians at pro-Israel rally

Had it accepted either one of the peace deals above offered by the Arab League, Hamas would probably never have been elected to power and it's equally unlikely we'd be seeing what's going on in Gaza now.

I think another question that has been posed remains unanswered "what rights do Palestinians living under Israeli occupation have?"

Someone tried to deflect it by turning the answer into another, spurious question about what rights Israelis have living under Palestinian occupation. I'd be interested to know which Israelis are living under Palestinian 'occupation'.

If peace is ever obtained there (and by now it's in ALL our interests that that happens) it won't be done by military force, except through genocide. Never mind Hamas or Israeli war hawks. Is anyone here willing to pay that price?

I'm not.

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