BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:27 PM

WTF?

A cash crop is, well, a cash crop.

If a fox eats it it is a cash loss, geddit?

Duck for the table---reared in captivity.

Pheasant for the table - largely reared in captivity.

Rabbit for the table - largely reared in captivity.

What do you need to shoot it for? Fun?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,Ibo
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:22 PM

All fox hunters are pompous inbred idiots who think more of themselves than anything else on this earth.Get a life you gits and let nature take its course.If we were not on this planet the rest of nature would manage itself very well.Oh,and farmers,just build better fences to protect your stock.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:41 PM

Do I understand you correctly Richard: you need foxes to prevent them from killing your poultry before you can kill them yourself?

So why is killing poultry better than killing pheasants or ducks? All are edible?

And pardon: I am not familiar with the term "cash crop birds" - is this poultry?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:27 PM

Because you need to kill foxes. You mostly don't need to kill wild birds.

Cash crop birds can be killed more efficiently and with less pain to them by electrocution - and you don't shoot them anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:02 PM

Richard, I agree that a good shot causes lhe least suffering (The kind of coursing where you hunt down a fox with a pack of hounds and riders is not considered ethical among hunters here in Germany, btw).

Still I don`t get why shooting foxes is different from shooting birds. With the poultry in modern farms foxes don`t get much of a chance to get them. Different with cormorants and fish-farms, maybe?

The real important about hunting is not about necessity but about the ecological effects: does hunting endanger the species? With the modern way of hunting which includes wildlife-management in the sense of conservation of the species it won`t. Nowadays species become extinct because humankind is destroying their habitats. And I don`t talk about farmers or hunters here: it is the general population`s demands for cheap food, clothing, heating, teak garden furniture etc. ...
Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:42 PM

But what if the bird is regarded as a cash crop and thus a source of income for you as a farmer?
You can either keep it in pens, which stifle its natural instincts, and then cart it off in plastic crates to a slaughterhouse where someone will hang it up by its back legs and electrocute it (which is what happens to nearly all the poultry sold) or you can rear it to a certain point and then let it take its chance in the wild, to have around a 40 per cent chance of being shot on the wing the following winter.
If I was a bird, I thing I know which one I'd choose!
And, as for jobs, as someone who shoots, I have no problem in accepting the figures from the survey which, although commissioned by the CLA and BASC, was not carried out by them.
What is odd is that the BBC considers it newsworthy, as the information has been on the BASC website for about three years

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:41 PM

Let's discuss this in dead ernest (could not resist that).

Killing fox necessary (allegedly, farmers say so, etc, etc) - ergo do it as humanely as possible. Got a better way than shooting?
Shooting bird (usually) not necessary - so don't do it.

See? Easy when you stop to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: gnu
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:15 PM

Well... how's about them sheep, eh? Once, twice a year, they get chased, penned, manhandled.... SHEAR TERROR for the poor buggers. It goes on for years!!!! And for what? So you can wear fancy sweaters and mittens!! It's an outrage. An OUTRAGE!!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:56 PM

No Richard: Bunnahabhain compared their positions towards foxes (shooting ok) with the position towards birds (shooting not ok).
Necessity wasn`t mentioned. Neither was an alternative shown for hunting birds (using falcons etc. would be more like coursing, which is felt undesirable concerning foxes).

As to a moral approach one should consider that death by predator is natural for game - much more natural than the conditions chicken, pigs and cows living in on what are more meat-factories than farms.
Which exist because the general public (non-hunting) wants to buy the cheapest meat around ignoring that this causes inhuman conditions for animals.

Grab is quite right: game is more carefully (i.e. !ecologically correct") managed than most farm animals.

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:12 PM

From a moral perspective we may say that killing is undesirable, yet may be necessary, and if necessary should be done as humanely as possible. Seems quite consistent to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 10:35 AM

You have to admire the league against cruel sports sometimes. Their logic is amazing...

"Hunting foxes with dogs is cruel. If we get hunting banned, the foxes will be shot. Much better."

and

"Shooting birds is cruel. "

What a consistient position!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Grab
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 09:08 AM

Sure, and fishermen should all be held underwater with hooks in their mouths until they drown, and abattoir workers should have their throats cut...

If you're a vegetarian Roger, then that's fine. If you eat meat though (and the vast majority of the country does), things die in order that you can eat. And someone has to kill them.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 09:08 AM

I shoot.I also hunt with a lurcher. I love it. It contributes massively to the rural economy, not that most city dwellers give a f**k about the countryside, as long as it looks nice and pretty for them on a weekend. Try a weeks wild boar hunting in Poland, it's excellent sport.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 08:45 AM

I am all in favour of those who wish to shoot at and kill things for enjoyment - to be permitted to do so.

Open moorland can be set aside for this.

One group of hunters can venture out from one direction and other groups from another and they can all meet up and shoot the living daylights out of each other.

This should provide plenty of enjoyment and employment.

Subject: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Grab
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:08 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5387358.stm

As always, be worried about an "independent" report which proves what the people commissioning it want it to prove! :-/

I have to say that I agree with worries about gamekeepers poisoning birds of prey. Foxes I'm not too bothered about - there's plenty of them - but birds of prey are in serious decline and gamekeepers have brought several species to the verge of extinction (red kites for one).

But I'd also take issue with the line "This (wildlife) is a national asset - by what right do people start harvesting this for profit?" Actually this wildlife is as carefully a "farmed" set of animals as any free-range chickens or hill-farm sheep. Pheasants, grouse and deer may not be domesticated, but they're living in environmental conditions which are fully controlled and created by humans, which is something it's too easy to forget. The only important element is ensuring that the take is sustainable - commercial fishing is the prime example of what happens when it isn't. Also in many cases (especially deer), controlled culling is *essential* to keep the population from overfilling their environment.

I'm ambivalent about the "pursuit of the inedible by the unspeakable", but when it comes to hunting game animals then I really hope this doesn't get closed down. Fortunately, whilst this is a minority sport, it's certainly not a small or an underfunded minority sport, and it's difficult to make the same charges of cruelty as for fox-hunting. It's worth remembering too that the results would be immediately evident to many people who don't hunt - if a ban happened, you would never again be able to eat pheasant, pigeon or venison in the UK.

Graham.