BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 01:00 PM

"Well, I'm glad to you that you finally got back to the topic of Syria, instead of using this thread to bash Israel(as usual"
You cant resist the arrogance - can you?
Israel is very much a part of the problems of the Middle East - your country is aware of this and has used its veto over a hundred times, largely to keep it out of the International criminal court - Kink Oil rules O.K.
Another pill is in order, methinks!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 12:32 PM

Well, I'm glad to you that you finally got back to the topic of Syria, instead of using this thread to bash Israel(as usual)...that being said, it's almost interesting to see that you can 'copy and paste', in lieu of thinking.
We ALL know that there are severely oppressed people in Syria..the question of, 'US boots on the ground' in Syria' is addressing 'who' is backing 'who', and 'why'? Address THAT......(which I have been, scroll back and take a 'look-see')....and you can plainly see that 'socialism' has nothing really to do with it...HOWEVER, the global corporate oligarchy does, and they are/will using socialist thinking to further their agenda....but don't get your knickers in a twist...they are using the 'Conservative' mind-set to do the same thing...under the guise of supporting those same people. Putin is somewhat a 'bump in the road', to the oligarchy, because his interests in restoring the former Soviet Union, is a bit of a nationalistic threat, being as it is putting his nation first, just as Israel is...in front of the oligarchy's agenda.
...oh, and BTW, BOTH the Bush and Clinton camps are on the side of the oligarchy..BOTH of them..got it?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 06:09 AM

These are the people who, it is being suggested, should have a hand in running Syria. - from this morning's Times.
Jim Carroll

ASSAD REGIME EXTORTING MILLIONS FROM DESPERATE FAMILIES OF 'THE DISAPPEARED'
Syria
Tom Coghlan Beirut
The Assad regime has made more than 65,000 people "disappear" since 2011 and is collecting millions of pounds from selling information about their fate to relatives, a report claims.
Amnesty International describes the Syrian government campaign of disappearance as a crime against humanity that is on a "vast scale and chillingly orchestrated". It says that families of missing persons are deliberately left with no official sources of information. Many are sucked into an "insidious black market" where supposed middle¬men with connections to the security services hawk information.
The Times spoke to families who had spent tens or even hundreds of thou¬sands of pounds on bribes for information, sometimes having to sell property and other assets.
Some reports claimed that the regime benefited directly from this money. The bribes had become a big part of the economy, one Syrian human rights activist said. A lawyer from Damascus told Amnesty that the bribes were "a cash cow for the regime".
A human rights worker in Syria said that many government militias ran detention facilities as a semi-official source of funding, charging for the release of prisoners or for stopping prisoners being transferred to the custody of one of the feared government intelligence agencies.
"There are two unofficial detention facilities in my town, " the aid worker said. "They have the authority to dis¬appear people and to sell them. They are used as tools to extract money. "
One former Damascus-based lawyer said that many of his fellow lawyers offered information as a sideline. "The mediator can be a lawyer, a security officer or any person who has links to security branches, " Michael Shammas, who recently moved to Beirut, said. "Millions of Syrian pounds are paid to the security officers and brokers every month. So many people had to pay tens of thousands of dollars but got no information or were told false information about their children's destiny. "
The Syrian Network for Human Rights said that it had documented more than 65, 116 disappearances since 2011, including 3, 879 children.
In January last year a Syrian police defector who had worked as a forensics photographer delivered to western investigators post-mortem photographs of about 11,000 men who had died under torture in Syrian prisons.
Relatives of the missing said that they were left helpless. "I am stuck in the middle, unable to look back or move forward, " said the wife of Mohammad Issam Zaghloul, a lawyer who was abducted in October 2012. "I can't build any future without him. I am in despair, but I have to keep going for the kids. "

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 05:23 AM

Come back when you've taken your medication - really can't handle a tuppence who thinks he's a thruppence this early before breakfast
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 05:07 AM

What's the matter?...Did your 'God' get insulted by defacing it's idol...IE. your opinion??

Or do you normally strain at a gnat, but swallow a camel?

...oh, and one more little observation, that you might find of value..you're making an ass of yourself in public...(no offense intended)...you know, like if you're going to go on stage, and your assistant checks and makes sure that your zipper is zipped up...stuff like that..

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 04:47 AM

"now take your myopic blinders off, for just a moment...just a moment..it won't hurt"
You're at it again - take a pill and start again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 04:37 AM

You've GOT TO BE kidding me!

For the most part, your post is right off track, so why even comment to it...but there is one thing, you said toward the end, that clearly demonstrates what I posted to you previously....now take your myopic blinders off, for just a moment...just a moment..it won't hurt, I promise you..OK.....You posted: (In response to Tunisia's post, "Don't discount Israel")
"I don't (if you are referring to me) - a religion-led State, with expansionist, monotheistic aims (and actions) and nuclear weapons - you could hardly miss it, could you."

"Religion" is literally, 'a way of life', usually as on a 'path to God' WHATEVER YOUR GOD MAY BE!!....SO, to some people money, power, and control are the God they serve RIGHT???

Your response can refer to the global corporate/global bankers as well as Israel....BUT the borders and alliances of the above are a 'little less visible', than how you view the countries(including your own) that YOU identify as being a nation. To some, they welcome it, hoping to prosper with it...to others, they see this as a threat to their national identity and sovereignty.

BTW, to some, politics is their religion, others, an ideology which serves them, so they feel justified to manipulate consensuses through organized political parties....don't get bit....(but there are 'snake bite' kits).

Open your eyes....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 03:57 AM

"Have you EVER considered this??"
Don't patronise me- we've already got one too many of those.
"the only reasonably close Democracy over there!"
Yeah sure - setting up an apartheid State at gunpoint - ethnic cleansing the Arabs from the area in order to create a monotheistic state - very democratic, I'm sure!!
If to do what they have to means them doing what they are doing, it has s.f.a. to do with democracy of any shape or form - it's about as democratic as your Southern States before emancipation - democracy (of a sort) for some, oppression and slavery for others - not how I understand the term.
Shouldn't forget that it's not that long ago that Israel was attempting to sell South Africa nuclear weapons - now that's a thought to go to bed with at night - a mono-religion nuclear state in The Middle East and a white supremist state, similarly equipped in Africa - "and I say to myself, what a wonderful world" - not the inheritance I would like to leave those who come after me.
"Don't discount Israel"
I don't (if you are referring to me) - a religion-led State, with expansionist, monotheistic aims (and actions) and nuclear weapons - you could hardly miss it, could you.
In the long term, Israel poses just as much of a threat to world peace and stability as does Isis
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 01:51 AM

Absolutely!!....If Israel's national interest of surviving as a nation, causes them to 'do what they HAVE To' to survive, they could, and perhaps will, turn their mid-east enemies into toast!...and the desert sands into glass...and that kind of independent thinking causes the global corporate oligarchy to consider THEIR interests threatened.
Not too hard to figure out.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Tunisia
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 01:17 AM

Don't discount Israel

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 01:02 AM

Typo correction:.......and then expect everybody you feel who identifies with 'socialism', should agree with your VERY narrow view, and share your blindness.....blind to everything you COULD see, if it wasn't for your myopic, whole, wide angle view."

Should read: "...and then expect everybody you feel who identifies with 'socialism', should agree with your VERY narrow view, and share your blindness.....blind to everything you COULD see, if it wasn't for your myopic, LESS THAN whole, wide angle view.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 12:58 AM

Carroll: "Your pearl of wisdom re oligarchies v nationalists is missing an essential; piece - that of the fanatical God-botherers who have taken advantage of the situation - it is they who offer the most immediate threat at present, and they who have escalated the conflict into an international one."

Have you EVER considered this??....Perhaps those 'fanatical God-botherers' have been taken advantage of BY the global corporate oligarchy???....or is that to much of a stretch for you myopic view of the mid-east???

Carroll: "If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel."

Neither would Adolf Hitler....so you're in like-company!

You really should get over your flagrantly, out front disdain for Israel...the only reasonably close Democracy over there!...but see, the 'global corporate oligarchy', of which anti-Israeli bias you spout, doesn't give a rat's ass about any of the reasons you drivel on about....but they'll use it...the reason that they are 'not so happy' with Israel, is because their sense of nationalism is stronger than caving to the interests of the global corporate oligarchy's control, and it's demands. If that doesn't make sense to you, it's because you are blocked....but what the hell...you did it to yourself!
...and then expect everybody you feel who identifies with 'socialism', should agree with your VERY narrow view, and share your blindness.....blind to everything you COULD see, if it wasn't for your myopic, whole, wide angle view.
Just give it some thought..you may wish to re-examine both your mindset, your sources, and their agendas....of which you are just a mental and emotional casualty!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 06:38 PM

obsessiveness

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 06:36 PM

Your obsessivness betrays you.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 06:29 PM

"In Carroll's world view every conflict is the fault of the Jews"
I'll happily give a thousand pounds to any charity of your choice for every time you can show I have blamed "the Jews" for anything.
You, on the other hand Bruce, have blamed The Jews for every atroc#ity and war crime committed by the Israeli regime, contrary to the definition accepted by every Jewish organisation on the planety
At the same time, Keith has dismissed one of the founding activists who helped set up the Jewish State and is accepted as a leading figure in the furtherance of by Israel and Jewish organisations throughout the world as an "unknown" liar.
My case rests as to who are the Antisemites here..
Over and out.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 04:42 PM

In Carroll's world view every conflict is the fault of the Jews. He's a sick man.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 02:48 PM

Yeah #, this is like that finale from a Mel Brooks movie where a donnybrook on one film set spills over into another and another...

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 02:23 PM

"Another thread in the shitter thanks to the dynamic duo."
nO IT ISN'T -Israel is part of what's happening in the Middle East problems - feel free to agree, disagree, or go on with your own opinions and ignore us - nothing stopping you, nor is anybody telling you what to post.
No idea what Mikes posting means - is he one of your qualified historian or what?
Nobody expected the Arab population to up sticks and piss of in irder to make room for a Jewish State - rather l
As for "nothing else - we have massacre after massacre to bear out what en Gurion had to say - thanks very much
If you've nothing sane to add - done here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 01:02 PM

MGM·Lion - PM
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 02:41 PM

Whose country, leveller? At the time of the main Jewish 'occupation', 1890-1940, it was first off part of the Ottoman Empire. The land on which settlements, towns, cities, were established was acquired entirely by purchase from its legitimate owners ~~ presumably mainly Turks, with no objections raised by the overall authority, the Ottoman government, until 1917; when the Turks, Germany's allies in WW1, were expelled by British forces under General Allenby, who put in place a military administration until, after the war, the internationally authorised body the League of Nations gave a Mandate to govern the territory to the British government; which lasted until the withdrawal of the British and the proclamation of the State of Israel in 1948. During the Mandate, purchase and settlement of land continued. Obviously many Arab villages, whose country, NB, it had never been in any sort of political or governmental sense, were less than friendly to their new Jewish neighbours; tho this was by no means universally the case, as many such benefits as more modern agricultural methods to the joint benefit of both communities occurred. And there were of course the well-known problems of 3-way conflicts of interest, leading to hostility, repression, refusal of landing rights for refugees from European persecution leading to terrorist outbreaks and so on. Of all this I am sure you are aware - I realise I am simplifying a complex situation but am confident you will recognise what I mean here.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 01:01 PM

Another thread in the shitter thanks to the dynamic duo.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 12:55 PM

You have Ben Gurion's statement, pur and simple - no fake, no hidden meaning, no claims "in an obscure book by an obscure author" - that is what he said.

Do we?
All we have to go on is something on page 99 of some bloke's memoir that no-one else ever heard BG say, and which is contradicted by everything that he is actually known to have said.

But you have to cling to it because you have NOTHING ELSE!
Right Jim?

Beg Gurion was aware of the fact that they were seizing Arab lands

He was not because they were not.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 12:49 PM

"Funny how that quote contradicts all the authenticated quotes of BG, so why is that the only one you seize on?"
Because it sums up the facts - that Beg Gurion was aware of the fact that they were seizing Arab lands and was also aware that there would inevitably be repercussions.
It is a clear admittance of the facts as he understood them and at no time did he withdraw his remarks.
Following regimes not only kept that land, but they seized even more - I have little that Ben Gurion and his colleagues would be horrified to see what has happened to Israel in the hands of the right-wing thugs that were to follow - especially in the light of what had happened to the Jews at the hands of the Nazis.
As one Jewish lady in Manchester, whose family perished in the camps, once said to me, "Never again - not to anybody".
I have no argument with the pioneers of the State of Israel - they did what they had to do at the time (mostly), but I don't believe for one minute they would condone the State thuggery that is now modern Israel - none of my Jewish friend have.
You have Ben Gurion's statement, pur and simple - no fake, no hidden meaning, no claims "in an obscure book by an obscure author" - that is what he said.
Ben Gurion may not have wanted to " touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them" - but those who followed him are a different breed altogether - they have betrayed the dream of Israel and debased it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 12:34 PM

Funny how that quote contradicts all the authenticated quotes of BG, so why is that the only one you seize on?
Whoever Goldmann was, it is one person's recollection of something said years earlier that no-one else can remember or corroborate.

It shows how pathetically weak your case is, and the absence of any real, actual evidence supporting it, that you make so much of this highly dubious quote.

Here is a genuine, authenticated Ben Gurion quote that contradicts the dubious one completely,

"Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.
Written statement (1920), as quoted in Teveth, Shabtai (1985), Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs: From Peace to War, Oxford University Press."

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 12:23 PM

"Muslim disaffection is with the existence of Israel and the existence of Jews"
As Ben Gurion remarked to the "obsure" Namhum Goldmann, who, according to the Virtual Jewish Library,
"In addition to his Zionist work, Goldmann championed other Jewish interests. Indeed, Goldmann never felt that a Jewish state would answer the needs of all Jews, and on the contrary, a strong Diaspora was always a reality, if not an ideal. In 1936, he helped organize the World Jewish Congress, and was the first chairman of its executive board":

"I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 08:52 AM

Israel is very much a part of the worldwide disaffection of Muslms with it's treatment of the Palestinian people.....

Muslim disaffection is with the existence of Israel and the existence of Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 07:02 AM

"Refugees from Gaza, none."
It has been predicted that if Gaza is not rebuilt after last year's terrorist attacks by Israel, it will be uninhabitable within five years.
If Israel continues its expansionist land grabs, that will also be the case in the occupied territories.
The constant humiliation and mistreatment of Arabs within Israel itself will have the same results - refugees - you ain't seen nuffin' yet!!
"The point is, he's in office"
Quite - and we are witnessing the result of that daily - from slaughter of civilians to chemical weapons attacks
There is no way of guaranteeing genuine elections with him in power - particularly as he has Russia's full support.
Unless the West adopts an ethical stance and somehow, if the U.N. becomes involved a blood bath is inevitable - laregely aimed at non combatant Syrians (perhaps it's time to consider the withdrawing of veto rights to states like Russia and the U.S., who have used it to back terrorism).
Anything less is appeasement to terrorism ans war criminality.
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 06:47 AM

"...if Assad returns to office...." The point is, he's in office. Saying no kind of negotiations can take place so long as that is true is a guarantee that the civil war will continue indefinitely.

If there is a way of enabling genuine elections, including the refugees, a way out can be found. Russia has indicated that that is what it wants to see.

Sitting back and sulking is likely to mean that the Assad regime, with Russian help, is going to succeed in crushing the opposition, including the parts of it which are genuinely democratic and non-sectarian.

The idea that all this comes from Assad, and that without everything will be rosy is as realistic as the similar noitions that were sold to people about Gaddafi, and Saddam.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 06:46 AM

Refugees from Gaza, none.
Refugees from Israel and all the "occupied" territories, none.
From Syria millions, fleeing from Muslims not Jews.

Israel is utterly irrelevant to the war is Syria.
Why try to invoke blame where there is none?
Why use the issue of the Syrian conflict as just another platform to attack Israel which plays no part in any of it?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 05:38 AM

"No it is not."
Israel is very much a part of the worldwide disaffection of Muslms with it's treatment of the Palestinian people and it's aims to set up yet another monotheistic state.
It is the cause of a potential flood of refugees from Gaza
It has attempted to interfere with the deal with Iran.
It's attempts to close the War Crimes courts in order to get itself off the hook for its own war crimes and atrocities will leave the world without a means to try war criminals if it is successful.
It's nuclear capability makes in a threat to world peace.
How long have you got
Silly little man
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 04:40 AM

Israel is a side-issue to this, but it is an issue

No it is not.
Israel has played no part in the events in Syria, supporting no side.
The war in Syria is in large part a sectarian Sunni/Shia conflict with Arab politics added.

You try to blame Israel for all the problems in the region.
Why?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 03:55 AM

"It's up to the Syrian people to decide who governs them."
There's never been a chance of that happening (that's what started all the bloodletting in the first place) and the possibility of there being any significant change will be virtually non-existent if Assad returns to office.
I wonder of those here who say he should be part of the peace have thought through what will happen to the million or so refugees should a peace be brokered which includes him.
The West is anxious to get them off our backs, so their solution is obvious - send them back to where they came from - to what exactly???
Doesn't bear thinking about.
Goofus:
Israel is a side-issue to this, but it is an issue - what happens there is very much a part of what is happening in the Middle East in general and stands to be a source of greater trouble if things continue as they are heading, including adding to the already critical flow of refugees should predictions be correct and Palestine become uninhabitable in five years if the Israeli devastation isn't put right.
As for 'socialism' - I raised it when the desirability of dictatorship was mooted by our resident N.S.er - maybe you don't think that worth responding to - I do.
Your pearl of wisdom re oligarchies v nationalists is missing an essential; piece - that of the fanatical God-botherers who have taken advantage of the situation - it is they who offer the most immediate threat at present, and they who have escalated the conflict into an international one.
Maybe your definitive pronouncements aren't that definitive after all.
Perhaps if you stopped talking down to people offered some real ideas - must be difficult from the hole in the ground you appear to occupy!
Happy pontificating.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 03:03 AM

akenaton: "I'm really surprised that our American friends have little interest in this thread?"

Jim Carroll: "Only Goofus so far as I can see."

Maybe they would, if any of the morons would address the SUBJECT of thread. You guys are all bickering over bullshit, and who said what when, and who is more wrong with their quotes!!

I gives me reason to think that a lot of you don't have a clue, so in lieu of a clue, you try to sound like you have fired up opinion based on nothing!!.......and ramble on, as if you have some dignity at stake!!!

Oh yeah,....and who cares what 'real socialists'(?) are SUPPOSED to think about it through the 'socialist accepted indoctrination'. How about looking at it the way it is, instead of trying to stuff it in some stupid box...If you're having problems with that, consider a wider view, than through the myopic 'socialist' filter...(or at least what you THINK the socialist consciousness is) instead of reality!

Try this(if it doesn't hurt your heads to much to think)....the global corporate oligarchy vs the the countries of a 'nationalistic' focus....sort out who is who (or really who), and it will start to make sense....keep in mind that Russia, China, India and Iran have a defense pact......and another though...the global oligarchy really has no need to give a shit about America one way or the other...unless they need to rent their military.....OK...go figure it out!

Happy Cogitations!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 02:55 AM

Talking of "bloodthirsty thugs"...America is about to vote for a politician who supported the invasion of Iraq and Libya.

It's up to the Syrian people to decide who governs them.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 09:00 PM

"If Assad is allowed to retain office" - who do you think is in a position to allow him or prevent him in the absence of some kind of negotiation process?

But what in effect you are proposing, Jim, is that Assad will be able to retain office. Unless you imagine that somehow the opposition, will be able to win this war. The most effective parts of that opposition being Isis and the Al Qaeda afiliated sections.

Negotiations can only start with all preconditions dropped. Once they are under way, stuff like setting up an electoral process, and finding ways to safeguard it, following a ceasefire, could be thrashed out. Including even some way of ensuring that even if a majority of people want Assad, he'd step down to give the new regime a chance.

If a few years on the Syrian's follow the example of the Serbians and hand him over for trial like Milosevic, fine. But that's the only way it can happen.

In fact Assad's crimes are comparable to those carried out by other countries. America's body count of Vietnamese was a great deal higher than Assad's. It is likely that the same may be true in Iraq. As I said, I'd dearly like to have seen those responsible tried for war crimes, but that's how it goes.

As for "no alliance with a bloodthirst thug", that is a good principle, and of course a complete break with our traditional practice.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 07:16 PM

"I'm saying that negotiations should be without preconditions."
Been here Mac.
If Assad is allowed to hold office he will never relinquish that position and the Syrian people will suffer as a consequence.
Assad will never agree to being put on trial at a later date (the outcome of him doing so is too much of a foregone conclusion).
You seem to be doing a Keith here and givig yourself all the options - whatever happened to your suggestion that his crimes are no worse than those carried out by any other country at war?
I go along with Gillymor - "no alliance with a bloodthirsty thug2 sums it up perfectly.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 07:05 PM

Let's give ONLY humanitarian aid to whoever our government deems worthy. To me Israel should certainly be considered.

The idea that constant war will achieve peace is insane.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:52 PM

Time to let Israel shift for itself....

What about the neighbouring Muslim countries to which the US gives vastly more aid - should they also be let to shift for themselves or is it just Israel that you have a problem with?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:13 PM

Nixon and Kissinger never went on trial (although they should have for their secret war in Cambodia and Nixon for his part in the Watergate cover up) but some of their henchman did and a number of them wound up with prison terms.

The American people would never sit still for an alliance with a bloodthirsty thug like Assad or even Putin. We do have a sad history in the previous century of propping up corrupt tyrants but Assad's atrocities are just too well documented.

For my part I think we should get out of the middle east and Afghanistan post haste. 15 years of war is more than enough. At this point we're just inspiring more enmity towards us and boosting the recruiting efforts of various terrorist organizations. The only involvement we should have over there is to provide humanitarian aid. Time to let Israel shift for itself and to move away from our dependency on fossil fuel.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 05:06 PM

If Assad had been overthrown and was in custody, and it was decided not to put him in the dock, that would be letting him off the hook. But he hasn't been overthrown, and he's not in custody.

I''m not suggesting he shouldn't be put on trial. I'm saying that negotiations should be without preconditions. That includes insisting that before anything can be done Assad will be removed or his removal will have been agreed by the Syrian government.

Peace in Vietnam wasn't put on hold until Nixon annd Kissinger and co were put on trial. Sometimes you have to accept it that justice might neve be done. Most times in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 02:44 PM

We've moved passed this, I'm afraid, but for Raparee and Dave, here is an article that punctures the story about Mossadegh that every seems to have embraced. Myth of the American Coup

For one thing, though he was, at one time, quite popular with the Iranian people, by the time he was overthrown in 1953, he was amazingly unpopular. After nationalizing the oil fields, he failed to renegotiate the oil contracts with Great Britain--the economy tanked, and, rather than risk having his party lose control, he suspended parliamentary elections and usurped control of the military, and drove the Shah (who, whatever you may think of him, was the legal and constitutional ruler of Iran) into exile.

Also, although he was Prime Minister, it wasn't by popular election--the Iranian Parliament had the constitutional authority to select it's own leader, subject to the Shah's approval. The only public election he ever won was the one that place him in the parliament....As to the CIA coup...well, just read the article.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 02:31 PM

Lots of people have a wiki page and an obit.
Do not pretend you had heard of him before.
You claimed that BG had made the quote in writing, and then that he made it in an interview, before you finally acknowledged that someone called Goldmann was the only person in the world who supposedly heard him say it.

You then claimed to have seen a report in Haaretz of Goldmann claiming to have heard BG say it, but Goldmann has been dead for thirty three years!!

So, when did you see this report Jim??

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 01:19 PM

"someone called Goldmann dead for over thirty years,"
SOMEONE NAMED GOLDMANN
GOLDMANN AGAIN - ARE YOU NOT TIRED OF MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF
Please go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 01:01 PM

Jim, when did you see the Haaretz report of a quote from someone called Goldmann dead for over thirty years, and why did you claim that BG had made the quote himself in writing, and then that BG said it himself in an interview, when we only have Goldmann's (who he?)assertion that he ever said it at all?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 12:54 PM

Notice too how Israel keeps getting attacked even though it is irrelevant to the war in Syria.
That seems to be the only Mid East issue they want to talk about.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 10:58 AM

"I'm really surprised that our American friends have little interest in this thread"
Only Goofus so far as I can see.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 10:07 AM

I'm really surprised that our American friends have little interest in this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 07:14 AM

direct quote from Goldmann's statement in Haretz

When did you see this quote Jim.
He died in 1982 aged 87.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 07:07 AM

So all we have is Goldman(?)'s uncorroborated statement that BG once said it, and only your word that it appeared anywhere except once in a memoir and not BG's.

So why did you first try to claim that BG wrote it?
Why did you then try to claim that BG said it in an interview?
You make stuff up all the time Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:18 AM

Nope - direct quote from Goldmann's statement in Haretz along with comment that Ben Gurion's documents had been removed from public access (contrary to Israeli constitutional law - indicating that he said much more that "wasn't suitable for the public gaze)
Go away - I have no more interest in you or your appeasement to State terrorism and excuses fir it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:06 AM

You can't find it, you mean, even though you have been give reference to it.

What reference?
Now you are only claiming that some obscure person told Haaretz about it anyway!
What happened to your claims that Ben Gurion actually said or wrote that quote?

Just some obscure person claiming to remember it from some obscure time ago.