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PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Rick Fielding Date: 28 Sep 99 - 05:27 PM Davey, well spoken. I'm not familiar with the group, can you e-mail me some info? Rick |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: katlaughing Date: 28 Sep 99 - 05:11 PM "If your goddess beliefs provide a valuable and valid perspective on that same truth, then those beliefs will also endure the test of time"........they already have, since time immemorial, they are the feminine side of what you call "God". |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Davey Date: 28 Sep 99 - 05:10 PM I can't reply to everyone on this thread, but certain comments have provoked feelings in me that I have to express. Liam, I can't agree with your 'free speech' attitude, if free speech means allowing bigots and racists to produce and disseminate hate literature, falsehoods and lies to those who haven't had the opportunity to engage in intelligent, reasoned discussions such as are taking place here. Sorry, but I won't put up with it when I'm around.... KatL, I can sense your outrage and frustration at the patriarchy prevalent throughout the world today, and I'm also appalled at the extent. The situation of women in Afghanistan is one of the more extreme examples in our time, and the fact that the rest of the world sits by and does nothing is a further crime. Joe, while I can agree that much has been done and accomplished during the past two or three hundred years, it's not enough, and much of the advances that have been made is now in the process of being rolled back.. We are losing ground to the almighty quest for profit. We have to remember that virtually all governments around the world are run by MEN, virtually all religions are run by MEN, and under either of those institutions little is being done to address the problems women face daily. Wife abuse is common, and the number of women killed annually by their mates, in the US and Canada, is on the increase. The authorities treat it as 'domestic violence' and penalties are small and of no deterrence. Women continue to earn 70% of what men earn for the same work or work of equal value. This is going to look like one big paragraph, can someone tell me how to put in line breaks (sigh...)... I'd like to add one positive note to this posting, there is a group in Toronto called Metro Men Against Violence, who are actively working to educate boys and men about the effects of the violence neing done to women. There are similar groups in other cities across Canada and the US, working for similar ends. With few resources and scant access to mainstream media, however, it's almost like trying to stop an oncoming steamroller by throwing a pebble at it. 'Nuff ranting, I'm getting too worked up..... |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: northfolk/al cholger Date: 28 Sep 99 - 05:05 PM I was recently flamed in one of the other postings, for stating my belief that the "appeal" of our music must not be "expanded" by making it more like what I call corporate music...it was suggested that my tired leftist analysis was irrelevent, and that there is no war going on.... I think that there is little difference in the accusation of PC'ness or recent vilification of "liberalism" from any other kind of baiting that many of us have witnessed, in the last 50 years. While I make no pretense that the left is ever, often or occasionally, right(correct),I do know that there is an ongoing struggle between those with wealth and power, and the rest of us. In that struggle, folk music has been a source of comfort, a source of motivation, sometimes a source of education, and always a source of recounting and passing it on. While this is not necessarily true of all folk music, I think that I could make a fairly strong case that much "pop culture" serves the other side, promulgating feelings of despair, isolation, angst, and in some cases, complete divisiveness based on age, race, sex. Who controls the culture, is a question we should ask, and discuss...and what are the effects. kat has made a passionate appeal for that kind of analytical questioning, much different than we are usually challenged with, via TV radio or newspapers. I applaud.... I also caution, that many of us watched the movements for social justice, which accomplished so much, but needed to do more, self destructover minor differences, but, we ended up fighting one and other, harder than we fought for our original goals. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: katlaughing Date: 28 Sep 99 - 05:02 PM So...I am a loud, brassy woman, who refuses to be quiet and demure. Oh, well....I guess in all the thousands of words I've put in the Mudcat, I've just been speaking in a general sort of way and been full of intolerance. Is that kind of generalisation you're talking about, Joe? I am only paraphrasing your words about me. Gentle, logical, convincingly...sorry, those may work in some situations, but they didn't get women the vote, or bring about civil rights in the USA. It took loud protests and physical sacrifices, as well. Or, am I rewriting history, again? This isn't going to get us anywhere, because we will never agree. I think you are being close-minded and patronising. You think I am being an over-emotional extremist. Change is uncomfortable. The only other thing I have to say is from the earlier post of mine which was lost, without getting too long winded: the spoken is word is full of power. Our subconscious is like a computer; it takes anythng we "feed" it as truth and will work to manifest that "truth"; this if one says, "I am ill", it will automatically begin to manifest illness. Yes, that IS a generalisation and a simplistic example, but an example nonetheless. It is important to remember that is a powerful reason for changing the language to reflect less hurt and malice. IT is esp. important in what children hear. Take a child and use negative language around him, day and day out, and it WILL have a detrimental effect. If someone wants to be called a Native or African American, who cares? It would be disrepectful NOT to. I believe one of the beauties of language is that it can change and be added to. There are plenty of educational resources available to be sure everyone learns of the haetful words and actions of the past; but we also have to lead by example and that means, I hope, that my grandsons will never hear themselves refered to as "nigger babies". kattheirrationalextremistwhogeneralises |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Rick Fielding Date: 28 Sep 99 - 04:55 PM Welcome to Heaven Larry B. Folk music and philosophy on the same thread ain't news at the Mudcat. It can be extremely informative about all aspects of the music, but is equally revealing when it comes to folks' amazing and complex personalities. An aditional bit of excitement crops up every five weeks when some folks can hold it in no longer and explode with rage that their former "heaven" is turning into a living "hell", what with discussions like this. (or possums, or top ten lists, or birthday threads, or Irish folk who wanna march) As in the (very) old Theresa Brewer song, they want "Music, Music, Music! More often than not, they'll participate in both though, so don't worry about it. Rest assured that Katlaughing and Joe will never come to blows, because I suspect that the articulate thought and caring shown in their debate is a lot harder to find down at the local coffee shop. Welcome, Rick |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Larry B. Date: 28 Sep 99 - 04:24 PM Folk Music and Philosophy on the same web site! I'm in Heaven! Seems like eveveryone can give you "their definition" of a word or phrase; I hope this doesn't go on to its (no apostrophe) logical conclusion, because it's (not the posessive) impossible to communicate unless symbols are universally understood. When people try to bend meanings to their own uses, you have "African-Americans" who have never been to Africa, and whose ancestors have been here longer than many others. People whose ancestors entered the country in historical times are not Native Americans, but thank God and Mr. Webster, the child of immigrants can still be a Native New Yorker. -A native Earthling and proud member of the Human race |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Sep 99 - 04:11 PM Kat, you have a pure heart and a lot of wonderful passion. Much of what you say is true, but you tend to speak in broad generalizations and you give very little respect for those who have different perspectives. Your goals and mine are very much the same, but we cannot accomplish those goals if we run roughshod over all that has gone before us, or if we we try to impose those goals upon others without presenting them gently, logically, and convincingly. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: katlaughing Date: 28 Sep 99 - 03:47 PM I used it as an example, only, that there is still much work to be done while we still have such oppression going on, Peter. If that's matronising, so be it. kattheirrationalextremist |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Peter T. Date: 28 Sep 99 - 03:42 PM And is a matronizing tone characterised as replying to an argument about tradition by insinuating that all past societies in general, and Joe (Ayatollah Offer) in particular, are Afghanistan? yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: catspaw49 Date: 28 Sep 99 - 03:24 PM So what is the meaning of the words "Folk Music?" Spaw -- "Equal Opps" --- for an Answer to either. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: katlaughing Date: 28 Sep 99 - 03:22 PM Spoken like a true and patronising patriarch, Joe! I don't swallow for anyone, first of all. And, I've read plenty of literature of both men and women.That was a really cheap shot. I would suggest you open your mind and get outside of the theological box from which you are pontificating. I am NOT a separatist and anybody who has been on here and read most of my postings will not be so facetious as to assume so or claim that. I always advocate for balance. And that is what this has all been about; the need for the world of ALL people, to balance out, in a slow plod towards equality. If I have sounded like a bigot against men and religion I am sorry, but what I relate has been facts of the past and present and I do not apologise for that. The fact of the matter is that our world has been male-dominated for over 2,000 years and it is time for the pendulum to swing back towards a middle ground of sharing and caring. I don't care for your condescending holier-than-thou tone, Joe, you know me better than that.
Right now, in Afghanistan, women are not allowed out of their homes for any kind of work.
They are not allowed to leave their homes without a father, brother, or husband.
They are not allowed to interact with male shopkeepers.
They cannot be treated by a male doctor. Ironically there are no women doctors allowed to practise.
They may not study at schools, universities, or other educational institutions. They have to wear the Burqa, long veil which covers them from head to toe.
If a woman dares to go out without her male relative or without her full cover, she will be whipped, beaten and verbally abused, in public. One woman was beaten to death because her ankles showed.
A number of lovers have been stoned to death for having sex outside their marriages. No makeup is allowed. Several women have had their fingers cut off for wearing fingernail polish. They are not allowed to talk to or shake the hands of any male who is not their relative. Nor are they allowed to laugh out loud. All in the name of religion by the dominate gender. And, lest you accuse me of spewing propoganda, please see the website of women in Pakistan who have lived to escape from such a hell and are working with men and women of the world to try to end the oppression and murders of thousands of women. They are at www.RAWA.org. Of course women weren't powerless, in some cases. If you will get Barbara Walker's Encyclopedia of Women's Myths and Secrets you will find she cite her hundreds of sources for a lot of the herstory I am talking about. You might especially pay close attention to what happened to land-owning women when the early Church decided they had too much autonomy and power and stripped them of their lands, including abbesses. kat |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Sep 99 - 02:39 PM Hi, Kat - these comments of yours were in the "Hummer" thread, but my response fits better into this one. Annap, it's because, in the patriarchal world of old, and even of today in some places, enjoying sex was against the control of the church. It meant women, might choose to be free, instead of subservient wombs.Gee, Kat, it seems to me that you may have swallowed some propaganda. I guess you don't realize that what you've been saying over and over this week is full of bigotry against men and against traditional religious beliefs. There is truth in what you say, but you've taken it to an irrational extreme. I can't believe that it's all that simple, that men and church were so totally evil in the "unenlightened" age of our ancestors. Certainly, there was sexism in our culture and in churches, but that does not totaly negate the value of the wisdom of the last two or three millennia. In the past, there were many corrupt leaders in our culture and in our churches. Well, by golly, the same is true today. I think there may be something about the essence of leadership that invites corruption. Maybe it's because you often have to sell your soul, your ideals, to become a leader. On the other hand, many leaders in the past, and in the present, did not compromise their ideals or their integrity. I believe there's a difference between the leaders and the thinkers in any organization or culture. It's the thinkers who maintain the ideals and who have the more profound effect on us. You sometimes have to look to find them, but every age and every culture has had inspired writing and thinking from both both women and men. It's the leaders who cause suffering - the thinkers give us hope. If you look at the sacred writings of most major religions that have endured though the ages, you will find much beauty and idealism and truth. Traditions endure because of the truth they embody. If your goddess beliefs provide a valuable and valid perspective on that same truth, then those beliefs will also endure the test of time. Religious beliefs that endure are those that express truth and love and beauty and a spirit of wonder for the mystery of life. When people do evil things in the name of religion, what they do is usually in direct contradition the the religious beliefs they claim to espouse. Yes, it's true we are coming out of an age that was dominated by men. It's true that women suffered greatly in that age. Nonetheless, there were many men in that age who were good, loving husbands, fathers, and friends. There were many women in that age who overcame male domination and accomplished wonderful things - both on a large scale and within their families and communities. Women were oppressed, but they certainly were not powerless. If you study literature, you will also find that there were women in past ages who had good sex. So, I'm asking you to stop and think a moment, and don't be soo quick to condemn. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Harvey Gerst Date: 28 Sep 99 - 02:28 PM A lot of this bothers me, but I can't put my finger on exactly why I'm bothered. In the 60s, I hung out with a lot of blues musicians who didn't differentiate between "Nigger", "Negro", "Black", "Colored", or "Whitey", "Honky" and a number of other colorful terms during a typical conversation. They used all these terms to add nuance to their speech and it didn't seem to bother anyone present as I recall, perhaps because the terms were being used with both sarcasm AND affection by both races. If anything, it drew me closer to the problems that Negros faced in the 60s and helped me realize the vast chasm that separated our two cultures. Music seemed to be a bridge that spanned them. I'm not sure the homoginization of all these terms into "African-American" is necessarily a good thing. It eliminates the wonderful nuances that even African-Americans used to describe themselves in the past, just as a "dumb redneck" or "trailer trash" creates certain instant mental images today. Is it painting with "too broad a brush"? Perhaps, but simply placing everybody into a category that can be described with a hyphenated two word description is possibly not the answer either. I guess the problem arises when hate groups get hold of a term and use it in a derogatory sense to incite others. At 62, I still don't have many answers, just more and more questions. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: catspaw49 Date: 28 Sep 99 - 01:55 PM Uh, that would have been me Joe? I assume you mean MRDD? You'll be happy to know we've gone back to mentally retarded/developmentally delayed.(:+) But in truth, Liam speaks it. As does Peter. Sorrowfully, respect, decency, and courtesy, are not requisite to free speech. Removal of hateful language? Free speech? Hmmmm.....Tell me how you can have both? Rights and liberties and the like cannot be exclusionary, but they often are. Are children granted a lberty interest under the 14th amendment? Should they have one or not. It doesn't exclude them, but they are excluded at this point in time. Can we grant free speech then only to courteous and respectful people? Sometimes I long for a benevolent dictator......as long as he/she/it agrees with me.......... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Sep 99 - 12:49 PM Kat, I don't think you'll find anyone here who will object to the removal of truly hateful or pejorative language from common usage. That's not the point. What people find aggravating is the frequent and arbitrary changing of language, making once-acceptable language unacceptable. "Nigger" was clearly an unacceptable term and "colored" was kind of a transitional word (still used in the name of the NAACP), so decent people willingly changed to "Negro." It took a little longer to change to "black" as the acceptable word, but it really wasn't that big a step because the word had been used in some situations in the past. Now, the move is to require clumsy, bureaucratic-sounding "African-American." What's that - four or five changes to a term in 40 years? I think that's ludicrous. I'll hold onto "black" until they can come up with a better term than "African-American." I have no idea what are the polite terms to use for handicapped people any more, so I've essentially been removed from any meaningful discussion of issues relating to the handicapped because I just don't understand what's being said. The terms have changed too quickly, and many are ludicrous, especially the "xxx-challenged" series of euphemisms. Somebody here was throwing around a four-letter acronym the other day, and I had no idea what they were talking about. Certainly, language is powerful. So is logic. If you put the two of them together, you can do wonderful things. If there is no logic behind your changing the language, people may start to look on those changes as ludicrous, and that defeats your purpose. -Joe Offer- ludicrous so absurd, ridiculous, or exaggerated as to cause or merit laughter. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: GeorgeH Date: 28 Sep 99 - 11:53 AM A quick thought (unlike me, I know). "PC" in its non-perjorative sense, has never been a useful concept. 'Cause "all" it amounts to is common decency, courtesy, respect for one's fellow beings (oops, nearly said "fellow man"!!) and sensitivity to others. Beyond that it becomes mere posturing. G. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: JedMarum Date: 28 Sep 99 - 11:40 AM There is power in the spoke, but it is not all powerful. The spoken word is still a representation of a thought or feeling. I have word the word 'nigger' used (rarely) without malice ... where the speaker had no understanding of its hateful connotations. Likewise regarding race, I have heard respectful words spoken from people who I know harbor hate and malice. We have to remember that words are just words, and the meaning behind them is much more important. As one who does care about eliminating racial (and other) prejudice, I practice political correctness, if you will - that is I use care in the language I select, and the behaviors I exibit, when addressing these kinds of sensitive issues. When it comes to 'political correctness' I choose to lead by example.
This leads me to another point, and it has been addressed eloquenty by both lamarca and Jack (Who is called Jack) above. We are sensitive and indignant toward the excesses of the people we consider 'right wing' - while we are intollereant of their point-of-view? We profess to be open minded and free thinkers, yet we have no problem ridiculing these people. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: katlaughing Date: 28 Sep 99 - 11:10 AM FOCK! FOCK! FOCK! I just typed in a long reply, accidentally brushed a key wiht the tip of my pinkie and it just disappeared! Don't have time to retype it all right now. I shall return. Sorry! kat |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: catspaw49 Date: 28 Sep 99 - 10:15 AM Well, yet another treatise on the central dichotomy of "freedoms".....well done but it gets down to the same thing, we live in the illusion of freedom of (fill in the blank). Ain't happenin' though....and we're becoming in a lot more of a hurry than we were in the days of Mill. Problem is, we wouldn't have reached this point were it not for the continuing defense of true freedom of speech. And now, like Peter, I ask, "is it time to chuck the whole thing?" Can't have it both ways.........that's the problem today. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Peter T. Date: 28 Sep 99 - 10:00 AM Actually, I think you are on to a great dividing point, kat, which I struggle with, but have not come to terms with at all. Most of the free speech arguments, derived from John Stuart Mill and John Milton (dead white guys) assume that while words are powerful and occasionally hurtful, they should be allowed free rein, because they are not as hurtful as suppressed speech. The model is one of strength through conflict: that the truth depends on being able to withstand whatever is said -- essentially to develop the truth over time in spite of hurt. If you repress it, it does not go away, but festers, and makes people more frightened of the power of what is not being said openly. The alternative model, which you espouse, and with which I am somewhat sympathetic, is that continuous use of repulsive language is not just hurtful, but actually alters the world, or freezes it in systems of domination. What is interesting to me is that as a white male, I am constantly subjected to hurtful language against white males, which no one (including me) takes seriously, and against which I don't seem to be able to object, and the reason is that I am perceived to be powerful and thereby invulnerable to those kind of insults. In that sense, Mill and Milton are right: a sign of strength is to be able to laugh off this kind of insult. But what if you are not in such a position of strength? What if you are not a white male, or already in a position of personal strength? Do we alter our language to protect the most vulnerable, or ask them to be stronger in order to protect a larger truth? Easy to say if you are on top. But where do you stop when you start protecting people from speech? All my instincts go with Mill and Milton, because I believe that the truth is more important than hurt feelings, but I am very possibly completely wrong because of who I am -- a self confident (well, in theory) male. Yet, if I believe in the truth, I have to be prepared to admit that this central belief of mine is just wrong. It is very, very deep. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: katlaughing Date: 28 Sep 99 - 09:28 AM Well, as one who has studied the power of the spoken word for a long time and worked on bias crimes legislation for the past six years, I disagree, in some respects, Joe. Woman instead of "girl"; black, African American instead of "nigger"; Asian instead of "chink". If we don't change what people hear, there will surely be no steps towards change. Especially what children hear. Our subconscious is not objective. Like a computer it takes in anything we feed it and believes it to be the truth. If we say, "I feel sick", the subconsious will work diligently to manifest illness for us. That's why advertising works so well. Whether one still harbours hate for a race, gender, or whatever, if they are expected to use less hurtful language, then, even if they aren't taking it in themselves (which they really can't help but do, at least their subconcious), at least the object of the hatred is not hearing, in most general society, the hateful terms, etc. which lead to degradation of spirit, feelings of despair, etc. Yes, we need to work on things and no, it doesn't do to deny the feelings of hate, etc., but we can demand a more enlightened rhetoric to pervade our daily, mass consciousness. It does have an effect. If you don't believe it, try for a day using the most deragatory terms you know for any variety of what you encounter during the day. Then see how it makes you feel about yourself. Thereis power in the spoken word. kat |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Big Mick Date: 28 Sep 99 - 09:08 AM Damn Joe, I just might have to recruit you. You are right on the mark. Bravo. I tried to write that 10 times and kept deleting it. Right on. Mick |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: catspaw49 Date: 28 Sep 99 - 08:41 AM A good post Joe. And too, it shows the fragility of the human ego and our total inability to legislate respect. Will "hate crime" legislation finally make us face the truth. We truly do not have freedom of speech,nor many of the other "freedoms" we often delude ourselves into believing are ours as a birthright. We can debate all day, but as the night closes in we are left with the certain knowledge that changes of attitude take place slowly and only through the individual effort and consideration of kinder and caring people like yourself. Even the most well meant legislation will not stand up under constitutional review, but you can't overturn the human spirit. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Sep 99 - 04:12 AM The corporate universe has a favorite ploy. If they can't come up with a new idea, they just rename an old one and convince everybody it's brand-new. It's so much easier than thinking. The move toward political correctness is much the same. Since we can't seem to rid ourselves of our prejudices, let's change the names of everything, and the problems will disappear. In both cases, the emphasis is on the language, on what we name something - not on the actuality that the name is supposed to describe. Whether Joe is colored, negro, black, or African-American - Joe is still the same person. Whether the person in charge is chairman, chairperson, or chair - that person is still the boss. Whether a person is called handicapped, disadvantaged, or challenged - the person still has the problem. Whether the Deity is he, she or it - the Deity is what it is, not what we name it. Whether the person who imposes rules on me is "liberal" or "conservative" - I'm still stuck with the stupid, arbitrary rules. Making this earth of ours a better place demands serious thought and serious effort. Changing names doesn't change anything. It just moves the hot air around a bit. -Joe Offer-
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Steve Parkes Date: 28 Sep 99 - 03:49 AM In my youth (long ago!) we used to say 'ideologically unsound', which just about instantly ceased to be an expression you could use seriously: people who have ideologies, sound or otherwise, are slightly ridiculous in everyone else's eyes. Maybe the problem with (non-)PC is there are no comparative forms, like 'a bit non-PC' , or 'rather non-PC'? I think if I wasn't meaning to be ironic (as when talking to Americans, for example!) I'd prefer to say 'thoughtless' or 'inconsiderate' or 'rude', which would convey what I really meant to say. Incidentally, 'chairman' is technically not gender-specific, like 'mankind', but maybe that's a bit pedantic in post-PC times? Steve |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Jules Date: 28 Sep 99 - 03:38 AM You guys... sorry non generic persons all asleep over there. I'm sitting in the sun over here! |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Jules Date: 28 Sep 99 - 03:29 AM PC here in New Zealand is used as a shotgun by academics in universities to blast their point of view and thus keep ttheir jobs. We (the peasants) are made to feel guilty for not agreeing with them. Because like anything if it sticks around for long enough it becomes a subject in university. Just look at how many people make a living out of feminist studies or the abuse industry. You wait we will be locked up for saying Taylor instead of Martin soon. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: catspaw49 Date: 28 Sep 99 - 01:50 AM Naw Stewie, the question mark is Mick. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Stewie Date: 28 Sep 99 - 01:23 AM Big Mick, when you write 'How's that for apostrophe's', there is no requirement for an apostrophe in apostrophes; a simple 's' plural will do. And isn't there something missing - a question mark perhaps? Yours, without prejudice, Stewie. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: catspaw49 Date: 28 Sep 99 - 12:53 AM Pardon me Jacques......What did you say?...Oh.... "The people will fancy an appearance of freedom. Illusion will be there native land." Okay, I got it.....I don't like it, but I guess the biggest deterrent to free speech is the fragility of the human ego. But Mr. Ellul, it works very nicely here at the 'Cat when we all show common respect, courtesy, and sense ..................... What?..........Katellegatte?...I thought that was the biblical term that YahWeh used t..........say what?.....Yes sir, I know it means Be Reconciled, but...............Yeah, I guess the 'Cat is our own little corner. Wish the outside world was more like we all are here......Yeah, I know its not..........Be reconciled huh?.........Kinda' goes against the grain with me.....and a lot of these folks too........ Spaw |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: paddymac Date: 28 Sep 99 - 12:52 AM 'Tis a joy and a privilege to "lurk & learn" on threads like this one. Somebody used the phrase "political correctedness". Whether intentional or inadvertant I know not, but powerful nonetheless. Those two little letters, "ed", seem to capture the essence of the problem: one person or group seeking to impose their view on another. I find it helpful to remind myself that we do not live in a linear world. My favorite linear absurdity is the notion of a political spectrum. There is/are indeed political spectrum/a, but I believe such things are more usefully considered as circular. Thus, the most ardent libertarian can be simultaneously and accurately seen as ultra-left, ultra-right, or both. I can't help but think of the fun we could have had if Mudcat had been available during the heyday of the great "flat-earth" debate. Are we not actually replaying that debate with a different phraseology. And, finally, Dear KatL, highest praise for your synthesis of "ethically conscious". |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Jon Freeman Date: 28 Sep 99 - 12:28 AM Kat, Goddeses were not just denied by the Christians. With regards to Christainity, the belief in 1 supreme being, who rightly or wrongly was taken to be male, starts in the Old Testament and therefore applies to other religions. I am a Christian and don't have too many problems with the idea of God being "my father" but God being the father, son and holy spirit - 3 persons in one I can't get to grips with. Jon |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Jeri Date: 28 Sep 99 - 12:19 AM Ooohhh...GG... You are so... Boringly predictable Oh damn, now I'm talking like the little stone putz. Anyhow, it's a good discussion, despite the fact that it was prompted by the king of hypocritical anti-bullshit bullshit. I've always seen PC as a derogatory term. I know this is my own interpretation, but I see the words "politically correct" as referring to the way you should say things to avoid harming your image. PC is what folks who want to get along with others have to be if they don't have enough common sense to figure out what's hurtful, mean, or just plain stupid. I wouldn't use the term to describe people who are just being considerate and concious of others' feelings. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: _gargoyle Date: 27 Sep 99 - 11:36 PM Ahhhh.....laughcat...
The lash stung deep....("little liberal wannabe")
Thanks for the "jackpot-payoff" |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: JedMarum Date: 27 Sep 99 - 09:49 PM Lima, Liam - it's all the same to the typographically challenged! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Big Mick Date: 27 Sep 99 - 08:17 PM NOW, THAT IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!........................................................................(How's that for apostrophe's). This is how a discussion of controversial subjects is supposed to go. I am very proud of my town right now. If we could do this on other subjects, I would be very pleased. Great thread, glad you started it Kat. I am not going to restate what has already been said. I would say Peter T., Jon W., Joe Offer and Alice have pretty well captured all the elements of what I would say. All the best, Big Mick |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Banjer Date: 27 Sep 99 - 07:31 PM It's a shame that folks just can't ALL co-exist without having to hang a title on it. We are all people, members of the human race, we all evolved from the same original life forms, Adam and Eve or whatever YOU perceive those original life forms to be. My wife has what I think is a valid argument. While we do NOT deny the special privileges and respect accorded (or those that should be accorded) to what we know today as Native Americans, should not someone born on American soil also be known as a Native American? Who is the clod that thought to hyphenate everything (XXXX-American)? It is thinking like that which tends to put everyone in different categorical groups and lends itself to creating rifts and strife among people. Let US ALL be PROUD of our own HERITAGE, whatever it may be. There is a sign on the lawn of the church down the road from me, it says: BUILD A BRIDGE, AND GET OVER IT!! Let's all work on building that bridge and get over it! |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: katlaughing Date: 27 Sep 99 - 07:14 PM Oh, gawd, how un-PC of me!**BG** Sorry, Liam! katlaughinginanethicallyconsciouswayatherself! |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Rick Fielding Date: 27 Sep 99 - 07:10 PM Alice, you're right. The word "correct" feeds the same problem, time and again. I think I had a bit of my tongue in my cheek when I suggested it anyway. I do "dialects"..East Indian, Scottish, Jamaican, many varieties of English and American and so on. It's fun and on occasion has been a marketable skill for commercials. By my own definition it is not "politically correct" or probably even "ethically correct", as it's often done to get laughs. I still do it though, as I'm confident that my motives have never been malicious. Some might see it as being "racist", and other than using those same "motives" in my defence, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. The best I can do, being a member of a pretty priveledged group (white North American guy) is to try never to be offended when someone pokes fun at commie pinko lib-left aging adolescent folk singer types, like me. My sense of humour is as important to me as my love of alternative music, and often it crosses some lines, but I need it to survive. Rick Peter, I'm so sorry for maligning "Blue Clicky". It would not have even existed for me were it not for you. Besides I now call it "clunk here". |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: JedMarum Date: 27 Sep 99 - 07:06 PM Lima? |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Bob Bolton Date: 27 Sep 99 - 06:43 PM G'day all, I hate to say this but, as one interested in language and the way it changes, I fear that no term can ever remain accurate and useful. All words elevate or degrade in use and the area of most movement is that of euphemisms (or any words which try to be euphemisms). The problem is that words are only labels for ideas, attitudes, fears and desires. No matter what word you choose, people eventually know what you mean and treat the new word as if it was the old, unacceptable one - putting their own spin onto it and corrupting all your good intention in avoiding the old, bad word(s). We see this all the time in words that try to deal in an adult manner with all the old taboos: "race" (after all, we are all the same race - a race is a group that can breed together and, much to the disgust of 'racists', humans do!), religion, sex and death ... and that topic really beyond the pale - politics. What we really should do is not to offend others - but that makes us inoffensive ... and that has become an insult. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: katlaughing Date: 27 Sep 99 - 06:09 PM Joe, "goddesses" are not manufactured. They've been around forever and I have thought about all of this, very deeply, for a long time, as well as studied the history of it for over twenty years. It is the Christian church which denied their existence. If they are now being "rediscovered" perhaps that makes some a little uncomfortable. I hope so. Maybe they are a little threatened at the loss of control or their "feminine side". I would also tell you it is important that we respect, not just the so-called "good & the bad" (that is after all subjective)of the past, but also those things which were repressed in the past, i.e. women's history and spirituality. Lima, thank you. I think you are right. Alice, I don't know who coined the term. I know what it has come to mean. I still like Rick's version, though, I guess something else, such as ethically conscious, might work better. Also, Joe, I do not feel I need to "respect" a lot of things which have happened in the past. Perhaps acknowledge them, but not necessarily respect. My favourite bumper sticker is relevant: "My goddess gave birth to your god."**BG** So.....okay, I am proud to be ethically conscious! kat |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Alice Date: 27 Sep 99 - 05:20 PM Kat, I think the word "correctness" in this term is part of the problem. Think about it. It implies self-righteousness that goes too far. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: JedMarum Date: 27 Sep 99 - 04:58 PM Kat - knowing how you use the term 'polically correct' - it is not an offensive word. But I believe the expression was not coined to refer to the policies and behaviors of reasonable, open minded people like yourself, but rather it has been used to poke fun at the excesses of bigotted people who use an issue or a label to prevent points of view opposing their own. While such bigotted behaviors are typically attributed to the conservative political side of the fence, there are plenty of excesses from the other side, as well; Peter T supplies a good example. We must guard against bigotry from all points of the politcal specturm, and in a society that values free speech and diverse cultural influences, the best way to take the wind out the sales of bigotry is to lampoon its absurdities. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Joe Offer Date: 27 Sep 99 - 04:51 PM BSeed, I'm glad you brought that up. There are a number of very offensive apostrophes in this thread, and I wish people would refrain from using them in polite company like this. Gee, now I'm starting to feel guilty and wondering if I'm responsible for any of them.... Hell, if we can't be politically correct, at least we could be apostrophically correct. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Joe Offer Date: 27 Sep 99 - 04:24 PM I was hoping to get your goat, Kat. I wanted to make you think. I think it's essential for us to have a respect for what has happened in the past, both good and bad. The movement toward "political correctness" is like trying to edit the family tree. Latching onto some trendy, manufactured "goddess" denies the wisdom of faithful women and men who have gone before us. While the people of the last couple of millennia made many mistakes, they also did a lot of good. It is foolhardy to attempt to cleanse our culture of their contributions, and to think ourselves wiser than they. We ned to build upon their wisdom and learn from their mistakes. Open your mind and beware - just because an idea is currently fashionable, doesn't mean that idea is correct. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: katlaughing Date: 27 Sep 99 - 04:00 PM ...seed, I AM LMAOWROTF! |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 27 Sep 99 - 03:52 PM Peter, you summed it up brilliantly. LMAO LMAO LMAO --seed(whowishesallyouwonderfullyeloquentandhighlyliterateposterswouldleavetheapostropheoutofthepossessivepronounits) And Davey--KatL (pronounced cattle? definitely not pc, or rather ethically correct--I prefer to call her Gigglekitty) And Rick: The Progressive Conservative Party? The oxymoronic party. Almost as self-cancelling as "compassionate conservative." |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: katlaughing Date: 27 Sep 99 - 03:52 PM Ah, Alice, thank you. Our paths crossed in the threads and I didn't see your words until now. Thansk for the vote of confidence, I am not sure what I'll call myself when it comes to this, but for now, I really like Rick's "ethical correctness". Also, I understand, totally, about the mysticism thing. They keep calling it the "new age", when the Truth principles which are in some of the older disciplines are not "new" at all! (sigh) Thanks, again, kat |
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