BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 02:04 PM

The wisest statement I've run across in some time is this:

"Beware of finding a Jesus congenial to you."

Yeshua was not a lawbiding person -- he ate with tax collectors and prostitutes and was damned for it by the Pharisees and Sadducees. He stated flat out that "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." And if he brought a new covenant to people, he brought a new law: love God, love your neighbor. Seems to me that if someone is says that they are Christian then they must accept Yeshua's teachings and reject the ones he, in Christian teachings, fulfilled -- i.e., the Old Testament is fulfilled by the New, so the Old is irrelevant to Christians.

Even Peter had this brought home to him on the rooftop when he was told (in no uncertain terms) "What I have made clean you do not call unclean."

As for the controversy about the date of Easter, I posted a link to a discussion of it earlier, and here's another discussion of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 01:29 PM

Mack/misophist, I think we talked about the date thing in the Good Friday thread. I appreciate your additional comments. Really the two threads should be linked.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 12:40 PM

The oester hare is a pagan god, from what I've read, and as others have pointed out, many pagan images and symbols were encorporated into early Christian holidays and ceremonies. Bunnies is fertility symbols, par excellance. Eggs is what babies come out of.

Like many symbols that have been copped for the Christian faith, new enterpretations have given a Christian meaning. I've heard pastors give sermons on the egg as a symbol of Christ in the tomb, with his resurrection compared to the new life springing out of an egg.

My best advice is not to get too lost in symbols and their origin. I don't care if a symbol is from outer space. It's the meaning that is important to me.

Come to think of it, maybe Easter eggs are really representatives of space ships that visited this planet.

OOOOOOOWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 12:38 PM

Ok Mr Strick ... your sidestepping the point.

Your guy Yeshua said 'keep the Law'. Why do you or the other word wobblers here want to get out of that?

Seems fairly simple to me

"I am the Lord your G-d, Who has taken you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery"


"You shall have no other gods but me"


"You shall not take the name of your Lord in vain"


"You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy"


"Honor your father and mother"


"You shall not murder"


"You shall not commit adultery"


"You shall not steal"


"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"


"You shall not covet your neighbor's goods. You shall not covet your neighbour's house. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his bull, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbour's."

If lovig the neighbor as well helps go do it, but HEY - frist know and keep the Law!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,Mack/Misophist
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 12:24 PM

One aspect of the original question that hasn't been touched on yet is the date of easter compared to that of passover. The obvious answer is that Jews keep a lunar liturgical calendar and Christians don't. But it's more subtle than that. In the middle ages the calculation of the date for easter was a divisive issue. The only important Christian group that celebrated easter on the passover date was the Irish church. Since they also rejected the authority of the bishop of Rome (the pope), and for other reasons, their suppression became an important goal. The institutionalized anti-semitism that characterized much of Christian history is probably the main cause of the rest of the differences. It's worth noting that a pope gave the English king dominion over Ireland to 'correct' practices in the Irish church.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:39 AM

FYI:

Passover is the ONLY holiday that the Jehovah's Witnesses observe.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:37 AM

I am not the type to knock other peoples beliefs but I have to say that:- I believe myself to be a true CHRISTian, which is exactly what it implies. A follower of Christ and His teachings. We follow Jesus'Commandments which may be found in chapter 5 of Matthew and although refreshed from the Old Testament are not the OT ten! also Matthew 23-37-40 tells us the Two great Commandments. Jesus also gives HIS NEW Commandment to us, which covers everything we need to practice in John 15-12. Being a CHRISTian means unswervingly following the words of Jesus. He did not tell us to celebrate the Passover but he did tell us to take bread and wine in remembrance of Him.. an instruction given at the Last supper..which hopefully...if you are Christian..you do! He did not tell us to keep the Sabbath which someone kindly pointed out, has not moved from Saturday to Sunday..merely been confused with it. From time immemorial there have been two factions on earth...Good which is given by God and bad which comes from the devil....I was in the grip of the latter until 1991 when I smoked heavy, drank heavy, womanised, fought often and was generally a pretty awful sort of guy. Since then my life has changed beyond regognition...I fall short of the Glory of God...as the Bible puts it... but I believe and you have to believe before you can begin your understanding..not the other way round. I say to all of you, keep seeking the truth..yes I said the truth..because satan will lead you up the garden path and back again to stop you finding your salvation in Jesus Christ.
I was lost but now I'm found...was blind but now I see....My suggestion to you is..get a Bible with Jesus words in red..or highlighted...read them and then make your mind up....I know that some of you(just by the things you have written already) are not ready to find Jesus...that's up to you..but I won't knock your belief so please don't knock mine.
My website should you wish to visit to view what has happened to me to change me so drastically is http://groups.msn.com/allforourlordjesus Please check out my Testimony and my healing.
Best wishes and God Bless you all. Georgiansilver

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:36 AM

Here is a link to an article discussing the Mary Magdalene story. Though the story describes an ancient event, it is—as the article indicates—a fairly modern extra-biblical legend. We do color eggs red (the dye comes from Greece) and they are distributed at the end of the Paschal Liturgy. I've heard many different legends rationalizing eggs as a Christian symbol and I have no way to validate or invalidate any of them. I strongly suspect, though, that eggs crept into Christian practice through efforts by the Church to coopt spring fertility observances of the pagans. Christians often adopted elements of pagan celebrations in order to turn pagan praceice into Christian practice. Christmas is a prime example of this.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:28 AM

I think that is one of those Only-In-America stories, WYSIWYG...

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:26 AM

Guest bastardlove,etc

Hey, if you question why God does things, don't ask me, ask Him. He just might answer you. As you yourself, said "excuse me for not being up on the bible, etc"

Do you always participate in conversations with strong opinions on topics you claim you know so little about?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:18 AM

"Flogging the bunny" sounds likes something teenage boys do.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:07 AM

I'm a little late on this conversation, but I too have often wondered why Passover wasn't more recognized in the Christian church. I don't know that anyone ever answered me to my satisfaction, either.
I did see that at least one local Christian church here in Nashville was holding a Passover seder.

The Easter Egg tradition supposedly comes from the early Orthodox Christians, and a legend that Mary Magdalene turned an egg red as a miracle for someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:04 AM

Then WHAT ABOUT THIS?

:~)

Human beans-- gotta love 'em!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:56 AM

"Because we're not Jews!"

Depends on definitions - in a sense Christianity is a version of Judaism (as a religion), and Christians do celebrate Passover; but there's been a lot of divergence, and different rituals are observed.

The Easter Bunny stuff and much of the Christmas stuff is a pretty modern invention, driven by commercialism. I don't think you see many Easter Bunnies round church celebrations at Easter.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:09 AM

Mark, I am sorry to say that for some Anglicans, symbol has become far more real than Truth, even in the Eucharist, as some of our seminaries have become more liberal, less Orthodox, more influenced by gnostic cultural influences (small g).

Christ and Culture is a great study by Niebuhr on the various paradigms for considering Christ and Culture-- such as Christ as being OF culture, Christ as being AGAINST culture, and Christ as TRANSFORMER of culture. What emerges in this study is that people wrangling about WHO Christ is, who may be so bitterly opposed over it, still tend to have an unexplored agreement on the paradigm from which to look at the issue. They tend to be satisfied with the illusion of reaching an answer. It's part of what drives the argument that goes like this, "No, you're wrong, it's THIS way," vs. "No, YOU'RE wrong, it's THIS way." By not exploring the underlying paradigm, we get to feel a sense that we are defending some essential trueness, when actually we are as far from truth as a hog is from the moon. Polarity is the harvest, not understanding.

In the US (I know nothing of the English church today), as a denomination we have seen an erosion of the willingness to contemplate mystery, the discipline to attend to our personal prayer lives, and the right relationship with God that would lead us to accept all the grace offered to us... many of my brothers and sisters look instead for personal knowledge and understanding, a liturgy that makes us feel good, and personal power and control over what we think is our world.

Beyond our doors, the rigid Rightwing fundies pay for and get all the press (except when we elect a gay bishop). We waste our time arguing with them and with the determinedly non-churched about whether to see Christ as being OF culture or AGAINST culture. We argue among ourselves over it as well.

To consider Christ as transformer of culture (starting with ourselves), we would need to admit we are not already everything we want to say we are... we would need to ask ourselves far more often, "Is God more powerful than we, and if so, what might that open up for us if we lived like we knew it?" Perhaps you might pray for us, that we be restored to that right relationship, in our own lives.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: jaze
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 08:18 AM

Actually, Guest, the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hamadi Scrolls are outside the Bible but both discuss Jesus and his teachings.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:33 AM

Elen, I think you've said very eloquently exactly what I'd intended to say in a few words. Why don't Christians celebrate Passover? Because we're not Jews! We have our own rites and practices. If we celebrated Jewish festivals and followed Jewish practices, wouldn't that make us Jews? Or am I too simple-minded?

Before anyone accuses me, I have nothing against Jews, or for that matter followers of any other religion. They do their thing, we do ours - same God, different form of worship. No problem. At All.

Maybe another, equally important question, touched on earlier, is 'Why have Christians allowed their Holy Days to be hijacked by the media and the big-business money-machine, to be turned into 'Holidays' - celebrations of the worst kind of human excess, whilst Jews have managed to keep theirs pure?".
Just wondering.

Peace.
Johnny

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 02:25 AM

Ellen, Thanks for adding additional perspective to the discussion. You are probably correct in saying that no Christian group formally observes the Jewish Passover in the same way that Jews do. Still, Christian Pascha (the New Passover) includes all three meanings of Passover: saving the firsborn of Israel and freeing Israel from bondage, the Passover of Christ, and the opportunity for saving all mankind through the Blood of the Lamb.

We don't set a cup for Elijiah but we do honor Elihiah in the ancient Liturgy—The Liturgies of St. John Chrystostom and of St. James—and there is an Icon of the Prophet Elijiah on our Iconostasis, just to the north of the northern deacon's door. Christians do (or should) understand the Exodus story since the “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” mentioned in the Nicene Creed holds itself to be the New Israel. We don't need to set a chair for Elijiah because all of heaven and earth (Elijiah included) celebrate the Liturgy and Eucharist with us, praising God and asking for His Mercy.

The Orthodox Church does not reenact the last supper as a symbolic act. There is nothing symbolic about our Liturgy or the Eucharist. I think Roman Catholics and Anglicans, at least, will tell you the same thing.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: bflat
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 12:29 AM

Mark Clark, your earliest post is as my understanding after having some discussion with a theologian and two scholars of world religions.
I would like to add that, Jesus was in Jerusalem because of the Passover. I understand that observant Jews would, if possible, gather there for offering and sacrifice in the Temple. For Christians, Jesus' sacrifice by his death on the cross is the replacement of those sacrifices in the Temple. Jesus became the sole sacrifice as the Christian faith was in it's formation stages. I know of no Christian Church that actually embraces the Passover. It is my belief that modern Christians, seeking to understand their Savior have looked at the Passover as a source, as a document might be, to the night before Jesus was betrayed, with a seaching for the experience of Jesus. Christians recognize that it was as this Seder, that they were given the elements and symbols of a new covenent, today it is known as the Sacrament of Communion. As such, this is not a celebration of the Passover but a reenactment of a Seder for the symbolism. For Christians to celebrate Passover, they would need to understand the Exodus Story and know the word of God which told the Jews what to eat i.e. bitter herb, unleavened bread and that they should remember to keep this service every year in the month of Abib. And that they would set a chair for Elijiah and follow a hagaddah. This does not exist in the liturgy of the Christian Church. That does not mean that Christians do not appreciate what preceeds their faith, it is just not theirs. IMHO.

Ellen

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 11:42 PM

Martin Gibson. Excuse me for not being "up" on my knowledge of the bible - although n truth I don't really give a shit what is in that superstitious pile of nonsense. However, God still behaved like a murdering thug. If God was just, he would have struck down the people who were responsible for the slavery of the Jews, not the indescriminate slaughter of the first born - and what sort of sick bastard are you that you so approve of this action? If the Old Testament God was human and did what he did today, he would have been tried as a war criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 10:57 PM

It was a good holiday here, too. Family got together, the youngest boy participated in his last Easter Egg hunt, we played games and watched movies together.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 10:35 PM

Martin, no bunnies or yard crapola here. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 10:20 PM

"Nope he could not have uttered such nonsense since 'I love myself by eating loads of corn products', but to my neighbor that would be poison, besides Yeshua also said you cannot add one iota to the Law!

Therefore I know your quote is made-up or mistranslated from the 10th commandment and the 1st."

Dear GUEST, that's odd because the two parts of the "Greatest Commandment" actually quote Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:18.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:40 PM

Well, Rapaire I hope you had a good holiday, also. I know that there are Christians of great faith, ones who know the real meaning of their faith.

Are they though the ones who have giant Easter Bunny cut-outs on their front lawns and still have a string of Christmas lights up at the roof lines of their homes in mid-April?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:34 PM

Martin, as I said, I hope that your Passover was joyous, as it should be considering what it celebrates.

Yes, I've also been to Purim and other celebrations.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:32 PM

Guest, Shlio

No one is arguing with you that it isn't great that people can celebrate what they want to.

But Mark Clark is right. The Jews have nothing close to an Easter bunny or countdowns to shopping days til Christmas. We don't have candy shaped like baby chicks for Passover. We join our friends and family around a dinner table and re-tell an ancient story for our young ones to hear and learn for the next generation.

The hypocrisy is shoved so much down our throats. All over, libraries are closed for Easter. Public schools were closed for Good Friday. Now why should that be?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:16 PM

Gets confusing with these nameless GUESTs dishing out messages of hate from different directions, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 07:20 PM

Ok Strick you want it ... your quote

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

You got it, here you go

Nope he could not have uttered such nonsense since 'I love myself by eating loads of corn products', but to my neighbor that would be poison, besides Yeshua also said you cannot add one iota to the Law!

Therefore I know your quote is made-up or mistranslated from the 10th commandment and the 1st. You may add to that the burden of the following; you are behaving like Scribes and Pharasees; now falls upon your shoulders by taking out of context passage/s from some make-believe account of a person you call Ha Zeus - hey its your choice ! - to show that the Law is not valid, is secondhand, is not primary, is irrelevant so long as you follow some script which does not even mention the very things we are commanded not to do. Ok lets all have a sinnin time of it because we NO LONGER KNOW right from wrong.

Let me ask you this, if the Law was as simple as the liars insist why then could not the Creator have said so on the Tablets given Moses? or do you think the Creator some kind of idiot?

Your claim is then an abomination! Shame on it and those who spit upon the Law with such trickery!

If it were a Highway Code then you could substitute love instead of 'yeild to the driver already in the junction'. Yeah love the motorist as you drive throuh his car in your truck then ask to get forgiven because of the death of one you call Ha Zeus.

No wonder the world is so screwed up.

Let Yeshua! rest in peace by learning the Law and then living by it, that is after all what the Rabbai said.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 07:16 PM

Ah, now GUEST,Shlio has put me in mind of something I've always found interesting. It's my impression (and only an impression, I've no factual basis for it) that it's the Christian holidays that, in western cultures, always seem to be hijacked and turned into great commercial extravaganzas. Jewish Holy Days seem to have been kept and cherished as purely religious celebrations observed quietly in homes with family and at Temple. Am I suffering from a misconception?

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 06:51 PM

Then, Martin Gibson, reveal the name of the Guest and get on with the discussion.

Like Christmas, the religious festivals at this time of year have had their significance reduced by the commercialism (and, like Christmas, some accuse Christians of taking the date of a Pagan festival for their celebration)

I think it's great that people can celebrate which festival they want, whether it's Jewish, Pagan or Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 06:06 PM

No, not really. And you are so ignorant, it wasn't a whole people that was massacred, it was the first born of every Egyptian. No women, no girls. And only a scum bag like yourself would stick up for a people who kept others in captivity. You are a combination of pond scum and crystalized smegma.

And yes, for keeping the Jews in slavery for 400 years, and after being asked a dozen times the age old question of "Let my people go," those rat bastards got exactly what they deserved. Do you think they will ever try it again, you anti-semetic douche-bag of a regular poster who hides behind Guest status? I know who you are, it's so obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 05:50 PM

Martin Gibson, didn't your original contain this: "why don't Christians also celebrate the holidays of the old testament such as Passover, Purim, Chanukah,etc." And my answer was that no-one but a complete and total bastard would celebrate the massacre of a whole people. Oh yeah, and here is the word fuck for you. Satisfied now?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 05:41 PM

Hey Guestbastardlove,etc

I don't care what you celebrate you idiot. And if you mean for fucks sake, don't say f*cks, rectum breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 05:22 PM

"Paul as you already know never met the Rabbai, never talked with him, never ate with him."

Paul was of a different opinion. See Acts 9:1-19. Peter had a similar experience. See Acts 10:9-16.

As for the commandments, a surprising number of Christians don't know them for a simple reason. Jesus says you can derive commandments from the following when He was asked what the greatest commandment was:

Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

In Mark, the expert of the law agreed with Jesus.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 05:09 PM

Who exactly is g_d, guest? If you mean God, then for f*cks sake, say God!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 04:48 PM

So Martin, you want us to celebrate the massacre of Egyptians by your thuggish God, do you? Count me out on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 04:46 PM

Happy Easter to you, Mark Clark

Those 10 rules seem good enough to me. They came from the Big Daddy of them all.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 01:52 PM

Replies attempt to shoot my comment down.

Strick writes

"Jesus routinely broke or challenged elements of the Law at least as it was being practiced at the time. Paul, another rabbi, speaks at length about the why Christians should move away from the the Law and eventually convinced Peter and other members of the early church to stop requiring cicumcisions or kosher dietary practices. I also seem to remember that Paul had considerable help changing Peter's mind on this from no less than the resurrected Jesus."

You should also have read the passage where the Rabbai tells a person asking what to do in order to be saved - saying "Good Sir what must I do to be saved", to which Yeshua replies " do not call me good for THERE IS NOTHING GOOD but G_d, you KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS to be saved"

Yeshua could not have done otherwise because he was too learned in the Law. Sure he made fun of those who pressed the letter of it while eagerly breaking the spirit of the Law. Look about you today and you can easily see that nothing has changed.

In fact I many a time meet Xtians who are trying to save me with their Paulist nonsense; but, on asking them to recite any random Commandment it has been my sorrow to find they not know the answer. IOW kill, rape, steal and lie all you can; go to jail for it and when you get out become a Preacher believing that the blood of an executed Jewish Rabbai has washed away your sins WHILE still not knowing the Law? Naw.

Besides there were milions of innocent Jewish CHILDREN abused, brutalised and murdered in the most disgusting way that we 'could' imagine during WW2 - why should not we believe thier blood not as valuable to the creator?


Paul as you already know never met the Rabbai, never talked with him, never ate with him. Thomas OTOH did, which would you believe? Seems a no brainer to me.

To me the writings of Paul are fanciful rubbish made up for whatever reason which bear absolutely nothing of value to the study of the life of the Jewish Rabbai Yeshua etc etc

The acid test that usualy applied to the matter was the statement that Yeshua was a son of G_d. Sure .... well he taught his followers to pray 'Our Father etc' According to that everybody is a child of G_d.

Missiah? naw, prophet maybe but not a Messiah. And those reports that state he did claim to be 'the' Messiah are to me nothing more than fanciful lies. After you read Thomas you can easily see why this cult could have begun.

Yeshua was not a TV preacher with a mansion and a hareem in Ozarks! These gentlemen provide the nearest thing today to what the NT referred to as Scribes and Pharasees in age of Yeshua. Remember to a Jew - and therefore to Yeshua - they believe in the Bible BECAUSE G_d told them IN PERSON to do it, *A*N*D* to the modern Christian this is back to front since they believe in G_d because the Bible told them to do it.

Today the Rabbai would ask some to stop worshiping statues and others to stop worshiping a book! There are 10 laws which are commonly cited as the guide for good men and Jews as a sort of shorthand easily remembered rule book.


"I am the Lord your G-d, Who has taken you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery"


"You shall have no other gods but me"


"You shall not take the name of your Lord in vain"


"You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy"


"Honor your father and mother"


"You shall not murder"


"You shall not commit adultery"


"You shall not steal"


"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"


"You shall not covet your neighbor's goods. You shall not covet your neighbour's house. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his bull, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbour's."




My two cents!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 01:31 PM

“…Good Friday and Easter are basically meaningless to Jews.”

Of course, Martin. That's what I've assumed. I was only trying to answer questions, not change anyone's belief system. The reminder and the recommitment that Jews experience at Passover is often deeper and more meaningful than what many Christians get out their Easter celebrations. I hope your Passover was a joyous one.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 12:25 PM

Some good answers and responses, though a bit of tap dancing by some.

But I can only say that if Christians do find some meaning to themselves of what Passover is about for the Jews and relate to it as being part of their religion, that is fine.

What Christians have had trouble dealing with and I am sure still do, is that Good Friday and Easter are basically meaningless to Jews. That is not to be said out of disrespect. Enjoy these days for what they mean to you. That Easter ham for dinner has no meaning to us, and although probably quite delicious, is not Kosher.

We'll be going out to a Chinese restaurant instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 12:19 PM

I just went beack to the thread you mentioned and I didn't see where anyone explained to me what I was asking about. Now, I must admit that I didn't re read all 200+ posts, so if you have the answer, I'd like to hear it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 11:58 AM

I disappeared? explain.

And, how does asking a question indicate an agenda? Anyone who knows me also knows that I say what I think. Soketimes I don't know what to think, so I ask. What is your problem there Cwatch.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 10:57 AM

As to Sorefingers comment about the New Testament not overturning the Law from the Old Testament;
Christ rebutted to some extent the law about observing the Sabbath:
And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? Matthew 12

The OT law was also "an eye for an eye" and this Jesus replaced in the NT with "turn the other cheek"

I was also in church for Maundy Thursday where the passover supper was remembered, and the priest washed the feet of some of the congregation, as did Christ at "The Last Supper"


Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 10:06 AM

"According to Joseph Campbell, there is not one scrap of evidence, outside of the Bible, to prove that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt. Any thoughts here?"

Interesting, Kendall. It was on TV I admit, but I've seen Hebrew graffiti carved by slaves who were forced to work in opal mines by Eygptians. The city of Ramses they were supposed to have built in captivity has been found, made of mud brick as described. Slaves wearing what look like Hebrew garment have been found drawn on tomb walls. There's even some evidence for Joesph. How much to expect to be found about slaves 3,500 years after the fact?

GUEST, Joesphus's reference to Jesus is found in the earliest texts. It is clear that it was elaborated by a scribe in later years, but it was there. Joesphus even mentions John the Baptist and cites his treatment as the reason Herod came to a bad end. Here's the version with the additions in ALL CAPS. What you see between them is hardly that unsual for a devote Jew to have written, nor does the the amount of text seem unreasonable for what must have seemed like one more failed Messiah to Joesphus. On the other hand, if Christians had added the whole thing, it would have a completely different tone and, I assure you, have been much, much longer. Read St. Augustine's work. It's interminable.

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man IF IT BE LAWFUL TO CALL HIM A MAN, for he was a doer of wonders, A TEACHER OF SUCH MEN AS RECEIVE THE TRUTH WITH PLEASURE. He drew many after him BOTH OF THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES. HE WAS THE CHRIST. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, FOR HE APPEARED TO THEM ALIVE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY, AS THE DIVINE PROPHETS HAD FORETOLD THESE AND THEN THOUSAND OTHER WONDERFUL THINGS ABOUT HIM, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."
(Antiquities 18:63-64)

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 09:57 AM

Christianity views the acts and life of Yeshua of Nazareth as the fulfillment of the promises and prophecies made to the Chosen People in the Old Testament. The writings attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John chronicle that fulfillment.

If you do not accept Yeshua as the Messiah, as the Chosen One, then the NT is irrelevant to you. You still await the Messiah. On the other hand, if you accept Yeshua as the fulfillment of the OT promises and prophecies, then why still revere the now-irrelevant (to you) Old Testament?

I was taught that the early Christian Church moved their day of worship from Saturday to Sunday to distance themselves even more from the Jewish faith.

For a discussion of the date of easter, see here.

As for the physical existence of Yeshua, I find it hard to reconcile the 18th and 19th Century views of Paine and Ingersoll -- correct in their time -- to the 20th Century discoveries at Nag Hamadi, the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, and others such writings. I suppose that, in the end, it's a matter of what you want to believe and what you're comfortable with.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 09:26 AM

Hi Ho! I celebrated this Maundy Thursday at a Christian Seder. Our conference minister(UCC), Sheldon Culver, put it together and we enjoyed her commentary as well as the liturgy she presented. Having attended many seders, both in the reform and conservative traditions, I was impressed and gratified at how the evening went.

Our small congregation is wonderfully inclusive of many "non-Christian" (we are historically a German Evangelical Free Church). I hope that we will include a Moslem based celebration someday soon.

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:39 AM

Well Kendall, outside of the bible, there's also no evidence that Jesus ever existed.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:29 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: kendall - PM
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 08:53 AM

I don't mean to "drop a clod in the churn" here , but let's discuss this phrase, "Israel's right to exist" Where does this right come from?

You dropped that clod into the churn and promptly disappeared from the thread. Then today, in this thread, you said:

According to Joseph Campbell, there is not one scrap of evidence, outside of the Bible, to prove that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt. Any thoughts here?

It seems like your agenda is emerging.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 07:30 AM

According to Joseph Campbell, there is not one scrap of evidence, outside of the Bible, to prove that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt. Any thoughts here?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 06:59 AM

"You say Passover, and I say Pascha
You say Hanukah, and I say Christmas..."

Christos Anesti, all! A day of goodwill and love to all.

Even to unnamed GUESTs...