BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 09:35 PM

That's what the Aussies said yesterday!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 03:16 PM

Because it's April 18, 2004, and that will never happen again.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 02:42 PM

I have to ask: "Why is this day different from all others?"

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:59 AM

Martin Gibson, you said "I don't give a rat's tushy if you believe in nothing but how far you can spew your wad, but your type seems to come around real quick when they are lying there dying or terminally sick." What the fuck are you talking about. What is my type, exactly?

To everyone else. Am I the only one who thinks Gibson (great jewish name, Martin!) is a little lacking in charm?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 02:19 PM

Bread and wine is all we need as Our Lord instructed at the Last Supper. Not passover but celebration of His ministry , death and resurrection. A symbol of our belief. "Do this in memory of me"

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: LadyJean
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 01:06 AM

One of the Jewish ladies I cleaned for had a brass seder plate. Every year before the holiday she'd take it down, get out the Brasso, and tell me to make it shine. Any fan of John Roberts and Tony Barrand will know the song I thought of while I was cleaning the plate. I never sang it of course, and I was quite ashamed of myself for thinking of such a song while I was cleaning a religious object.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 07:39 PM

Hi Martin,

You wrote: "You may want to believe your philosophy about Jewish kids wanting to participate in Hanukah to keep up with the candy and gifts their gentile friends get, but it just isn't so. Hanukah is truly a minor holiday that isn't observed as a convenience to appease kids during winter vacation so they don't feel left out. Like I said, there are no commercials blaring at you "only 3 more shopping days to Hanukah" even in the most Jewish of neighborhoods. Most kids accept token gifts, in most cases chocolate or small amounts of money. There is no gift fairy like Santa Claus."

I don't know how much (if any) of an age difference there is between us (I'm 45), but I'm wondering if that might account for the differences in our experiences of Chanukah celebrations.

You're right that there are no "commercials blaring at you 'only 3 more shopping days to Hanukah' even in the most Jewish of neighborhoods," but I think that's more due to the fact that the people who have ad budgets that cover the kinds of expenses involved in advertising on TV, radio or major newspapers are not too bothered about specifically targeting Jewish customers.

(I suppose the acid test would be to find out how commercialised (or not) Chanukah (and the other holidays) are in Israel, where the Jewish majority is likely to make it more cost-effective for advertisers to hype Jewish holidays. Do we have any Israeli Mudcatters who could give us the scoop on how things are over there?)

Anyway, although to say my parents' approach to passing on the Jewish religion &/or traditions was "relaxed" would be a vast understatement, we did celebrate Chanukah (and Passover, as well as a few other holidays) as I was growing up. But we didn't celebrate Purim, Sukkot, Shemini Atzeret, Simhat Torah, Tu Bishvat, Yom HaSho'ah, Yom HaAtzma'ut, Lag B'Omer, Shavuot or Tisha B'Av -- which are also minor holidays -- of about the same importance as Chanukah, I believe. Yet somehow Chanukah is better known than all these other "minor" holidays, and I suspect it is more likely to be celebrated by even not-so-observant Jews than the other "minor" holidays are.

As for "token" gifts, while in my family we did indeed receive dreidls and chocolate, and maybe a little "Chanukah gelt" (gelt=money, for those who might be wondering), I knew other Jewish kids who talked about getting one present the first night, two the second, three the third, etc... and these were not "token" gifts. My suspicion is that their parents were sort of trying to compete with Christmas, and show their kids that Chanukah (and, indirectly, Judaism) could be just as much "fun" as Christmas/Christianity. I also knew of families (in my parents' generation as well as my own) who had a "Chanukah bush". If that's not evidence of kids feeling a bit envious or left out of Christmas festivities... well, I don't know *what* is. (Although I will cheerfully concede that whether it's a "Christmas tree" or a "Chanukah bush", it's actually a pagan form of observance...)

I'm not trying to say that Chanukah has been commercialised to even a *fraction* of the extent that Christmas has -- and if it sounded like that, then I apologise. I was just trying to point out that (IMHO) Chanukah has not *entirely* escaped being affected by a certain amount of hype & commercialism, thanks to the fact that (by virtue of its date) it lends itself to being considered "the Jewish equivalent of Christmas". (Please don't take this the wrong way -- I *don't* mean it to be condescending -- but I think a lot of Christian parents probably end up saying to little Johnny something like "We celebrate Christmas, dear, and your friend Martin celebrates Chanukah".)

Martin, I hope you won't think I'm trying to disparage Judaism, and I apologise for a lengthy post that's not exactly on the original subject -- but I did want to try to explain things a bit better than I did (didn't?) the first time round. I do think that, to a certain extent, the main reason Jewish holidays have "escaped" commercialisation is that (in the US, and most other places), there are not enough Jews to make big business(es) consider it "worth" commercialising -- rather than that Jews are inherently more resistant to the commercialisation/corruption of our holidays than Christians are, 'cos the sad truth is that "Sturgeon's Law*" applies -- to us as well as everyone else.

Cheers,

YY

*Sturgeon's Law: "Sure, 90% of science fiction is crud. That's because 90% of everything is crud."

P.S.
BTW, I've just noticed the Google ads at the bottom of this thread:

Passover - All you need
Great selection of seder plates, matza plates, music, jewelry, gifts

and

Passover 2004
Passover 2004 in 8 magnificent resorts in the U.S & Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:05 AM

Actually, I think that is exactly what is needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 05:38 PM

Maybe what is needed is mankind's next evolutionary step, as in Arthur C. Clarke's "Childhood's End"

Deep, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 05:20 PM

I understand your position on that, Martin. If you feel comfortable with the Jewish faith, that's your business.

I think there have been a number of Messiahs, Jesus among them, and that there are more yet to come...but they wouldn't necessarily meet the description of the Messiah as specified in the Torah.

You know, you can "lead" humanity toward peace and love...by showing them the example. Jesus did that. So did Buddha and Krishna. But...how can you guarantee that all humanity will follow the example when it is shown to them? In short, you can't. A few people follow it, most go their own way.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 05:05 PM

Yorkshire Yankee

You may want to believe your philosophy about Jewish kids wanting to participate in Hanukah to keep up with the candy and gifts their gentile friends get, but it just isn't so. Hanukah is truly a minor holiday that isn't observed as a convenience to appease kids during winter vacation so they don't feel left out. Like I said, there are no commercials blaring at you "only 3 more shopping days to Hanukah" even in the most Jewish of neighborhoods. Most kids accept token gifts, in most cases chocolate or small amounts of money. There is no gift fairy like Santa Claus.

georgiansilver, I do respect your wishes to pray to whomever you want. That is truly how we were brought up to think in America. Like I said, we don't need an intermediary person or statue to get through our prayers to God. We can talk through our own hearts.

Little Hawk, all ancient rleigions are based on some lore, some superstition, some hard fact and have passed through the ages. Much of the Jewish religions beliefs are based on the Torah, which ancient copies of do exist. The Torah is truly written the same through the ages, but it is true that how it is interpreted has different perceptions. I have chosen to accept like other things in life and even on this forum, what probably is probably a reasonable facsimile of the truth and what probably is bullshit.

The Jews simply reject Jesus as the messiah, plain and simple. Not the concept of the messiah, but we're still waiting for someone who really might lead humanity out of evil and wars, and truly enighten many more then who claim to be enlightened now.

As for you, Guest bastardlove,etc., I don't give a rat's tushy if you believe in nothing but how far you can spew your wad, but your type seems to come around real quick when they are lying there dying or terminally sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 04:29 PM

That could be true in some cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:04 PM

"And what is that reason? Narrow-mindedness!"

So what you're saying is that they're too narrow-minded to appreciate the full breadth of weiner dogs? Maybe it's just a lack of peripheral vision.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 11:59 AM

Okay. It's time to settle this once and for all. (Some) Christians don't celebrate Passover for the same reaons that (most) Baptists don't honour weiner dogs (dachshunds)! And what is that reason? Narrow-mindedness! Cultural isolationism! Pretensions of exclusivity! Superiority complex! Just plain obliviousness! They didn't think of it. Nobody told them to. Geez...

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: LadyJean
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:40 AM

From the cleaning lady's perspective Passover includes a good deal of madness. To start with, observant Jews have to clean all the leaven out of the house. This can mean that the cleaning lady gets a free loaf of bread, or maybe a bag of cookies. It also means that the cleaning lady hunts crumbs from floor to ceiling. I also have the pleasure of cleaning the oven. When I started in this line of work, I had one steady client, a very nice orthodox Jewish lady. Two weeks before Passover, I broke my arm. Cleaning her oven became a joint effort. But we got the job done.
I also worked for a Conservative Jewish lady, whose daughters didn't come home for Passover, as good Jews are expected to do. It wasn't my fault, but she gave me HELL for three weeks before the holiday.   
Easter's a challenge for those of us in the cleaning business. But it isn't half as much work as Passover.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Gareth
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 07:17 PM

Lets get down to the real facts why we do not celebrate Passover.

"CIRCUMCISION"

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:25 PM

Well, GUEST, you remain a piece of work.

A few folks here might remember from frequent statements on another forum that I'm reluctant to discuss religious matters on public forums because it makes many posters uncomfortable. I normally save that for a Christian forum I frequent. I'll defend religion in general, but don't like going as far as quote scripture and the like as we did here. There are lots of good reasons for it, I don't need to go into them.

If no one minds, fire away. Feel free to respond to what I said and not go where ever it was you were going with that last post.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:17 PM

That's not strictly true. There are a handful of people who have heard of Harry Lee Wigley. Namely, myself, Khandu, and most of the individuals who have posted to the Mother of All BS Threads and a variety of other silly threads on this forum. Harry Lee Wigley may in fact be the Messiah, the Promised One. Or he may not. But he's special, count on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:05 PM

Perhaps because no-one ever Heard of Harry Lee Wigley.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:36 AM

Strick "I'm ... and no doubt others are bored or offended by the very exchange, but ... ".

I now don't think you want to get it, so what purpose would there be in further wasting time stating that two plus two equals four?Besides you are now appealing to some aundience - wondering who or what that might be -which will somehow support your blindness?

But whatever - will you now call the Mudcat guard to have me arrested? perhaps a little flogging next? then drag my digital cross to some hacker website where I will be crucified? And all that for daring to defend the Law of G_d!

Truely I feel great sorrow for the Jewish Rabbai Yeshua that he should have been believed to have given his life for such! I feel pain that the Loving G_d should be insulted by abominations in people using the name of anyother thing to pray by. Cannot you see that if you hide from G_d, he cannot find you!

You can still be a good Christian and learn the old ways, the ways the Yeshua taught ... he taught you to pray thus ' Our Father etc' and never did, nor could not, pray to some other thing - as you today do.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:52 AM

And WHY has no one here mentioned the Gospel of Harry Lee Wigley?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:22 AM

"'Drive Carefully

But which side of the road must I drive upon?'

Therefore your Yeshua could not have intended the Law to be summarised into 'that' short form IF the person did not already know the 10 Commandments."

I'm not sure I follow, and no doubt others are bored or offended by the very exchange, but maybe this will help. Love, agape or brotherly love, is the guiding priniciple.

Let me use a more relevant example: drinking alcohol. There's nothing particularly wrong with drinking per se, so help yourself. Unfortunately it gets complicated fast, because of the effects of drinking. Drink what you will, but if you're with a friend who's an alcoholic, maybe you should have a drink later, when he won't be tempted. Think of your friend and try to understand his needs. Love would argue against drinking and driving because the risk drunk drivers pose to others. If drinking impairs your judgement, you're more likely to commit a crime or cheat on your wife, whatever, you shouldn't. If you abuse your family when you drink, you shouldn't. If you drink to excess and harm even yourself, threatening your job, putting your health and life at risk, you shouldn't. Basic guideline for me? Couple of beers watching the game? No problem. Couple of beers and you start smacking your kid around? Problem. It can get more complicated than that, but you rarely fail if you err on the side of love.

See, here's the thing. There's nothing in the Law, either in the 10 Commandments or the extended scriptural and extra-scriptural rules most first century Jews considered the Law, that addresses drinking at all. The Bible's silent on it; Jesus and the Apostles drank. There's plenty in the "greatest commandment" that does, but it's not a hard and fast rule. The line between sinning, if you'll forgive me using that word, and not sinning is thin is thin here, but if you think about it in a case like this, you know where it is even if no one's written what you should do down for you.

Note my understanding of "sin" maybe different from yours, too, but as I said, people are probably already bored with this...

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 08:48 AM

As a non-practicing Deist, perhaps someone who knows could tell me the difference between a Christian and a CHRISTian? Besides being an affront to my fourth grade English teacher, that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,the 2nd
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 07:58 AM

"In addition if the person did not know not to steal, lie, adulter etc how on earth could they be held to account"

Little thing called ORIGINAL SIN

Ye're fucked from the word go with these guys

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 07:48 AM

Because they don't have Jewish mothers !

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 07:27 AM

Strick, ok you have your point but, what about this one,

'Drive Carefully

But which side of the road must I drive upon?'

Therefore your Yeshua could not have intended the Law to be summarised into 'that' short form IF the person did not already know the 10 Commandments.

Besides he says as much in the NT. 'Do not call me good ... 'etc

In addition if the person did not know not to steal, lie, adulter etc how on earth could they be held to account?

Seems obvious to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 05:59 AM

Mark Clark: t's my impression (and only an impression, I've no factual basis for it) that it's the Christian holidays that, in western cultures, always seem to be hijacked and turned into great commercial extravaganzas. Jewish Holy Days seem to have been kept and cherished as purely religious celebrations observed quietly in homes with family and at Temple. Am I suffering from a misconception?

Yes and no...
I think it's true that for the most part, Jewish holidays have not become so commercial & secularized as Christian holidays. I suspect this could be because there's less money to be made targeting Jewish holidays for commercial purposes -- there are SO many more Christians (in the US at least).

However, I don't think Jewish holidays have entirely escaped this phenomenon. Chanukah (I believe) was originally one of the more minor Jewish holidays -- received much less emphasis & attention than it does today. I think this is in large part a response to all the Christmas hoopla; if you're a Jewish parent and your kids go to school with kids who are looking forward to Christmas for weeks & months, singing Christmas carols in the school's Christmas program (prolly doesn't happen much these days, but it certainly did 30+ years ago) and -- after Christmas -- talk with each other about all the Christmas goodies & presents they received, you may worry that your kids could be feeling a bit left out; may feel a certain amount of pressure to show your kids that Christians aren't the only ones who are having fun this time of year. Thus what was a minor holiday but happens to be the same time of year as *THE* big Christian holiday gets transformed into a major Jewish holiday -- which is beginning to suffer some of the same materialism/commercialism as the Christian holidays.

The other Jewish holidays seem to have escaped this kind of transformation, so far...

Cheers,

YY

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 05:29 AM

Martin Gibson, the reason I don't ask God is because he does not exist, therefore, I cannot ask him; but since you seem to believe in the primitive superstitious backward barbaric nonsense that constitutes the old Testement, I thought I would ask you. So Martin Gibson, why is your God a jealous God if he is the only God; why does he commit acts of atrocity; why.....oh, a million other questions that a rational man would never be able to answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 03:45 AM

Martin G....You may not recognise Jesus as the Messiah promised in Isaiah but I do...that is the simple truth. You have to choose your path as do I and I respect that but I get answer to prayer by the Holy Spirit, through Jesus to God as Jesus in NT directed us. "The only way to the Father is through me". Also have to say that the way I came to know the Lord Personally is in my testimony which is in the aforementioned website. You at least believe something..when I came to know the Lord it was by complete surprise..shock even as I knew nothing apart from the stories told of OT and the NT when I was a kid. I was in my 40's when I was shaken to the toes by the truth...I perhaps still am shaking. Please indulge me my belief as it is founded on more than just strong personal experience and study. I have no reason to doubt what I believe and no-one has shaken it in any way since my introduction to it. You have the choice of what you believe and I respect that but would urge you to keep seeking as it could affect your whole life as it has mine.
Please forgive me if you find anything I say offensive but I live for the Trinity.The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit....the Holy Spirit being what guides me and probably what you think of as conscience.
May the Lord Bless you all. Georgiansilver.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:12 AM

You asked who we consider our ancestors, Martin. The whole human race are my ancestors, Martin. And that includes the tribes of Israel.

Why do you necessarily accept the specific version and interpretation of Jesus that was passed on to you by other people in the Jewish faith, when there are any number of other possible interpretations about the life of Jesus?

Nobody told me what he was. I have tried to figure that out by myself, consulting all available sources, instead of tieing myself down to one religion's unalterable orthodoxy.

How do you have such confidence in the architects of your particular Jewish tradition as to be so sure that they are right? They might be half right. They might be a quarter right. How do you know? You realize that you are merely taking the word of someone who took the word of someone else who took the world of someone else who took the word of someone else...and trace that all the way back to Abraham. Or is it the Book? And if it is, what makes it the ONLY correct Book? The word of someone who took the word of someone who took the word of someone....yadda, yadda, on back again to Abraham.

This is how the misconceptions of the fathers are passed on to the sons, yea, even unto the 77th generation. :-) And therein lie pride and prejudice.

Spirituality is based upon actual living experience and personal change and development. Religion is learned by rote. The former can produce enlightenment. The latter produces robots who practice organized religions. They frequently get involved in wars against other robots who practice a different organized religion, sometimes with some of the same founding prophets or leaders! (such as Abraham and Moses)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:02 AM

McGrath forever! Only sensible one in the bunch!

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:06 AM

Dear Guest,

Using the term "G_d" is nothing but an affectation. Use YHWH if you like, "G_d" is mere silliness.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:17 PM

"Ok Mr Strick ... your sidestepping the point.

Your guy Yeshua said 'keep the Law'. Why do you or the other word wobblers here want to get out of that?"

The Law as you call it is more than the 10 Commandments, remember? If you really want what Jesus said about the how the Law was being twisted you might want to read Matthew 23. The Law was being elaborated on, used to by some people to put themselves above others and became an obstacle to reaching God. The point is, as I said before, Jesus said out you could get all 10 of the Commandments (plus Noah's 7 if you look) from the two He quoted. They sum up the Law, the way God has asked us to live. Living by the spirit of the Law is much harder than expecting to have it all written down for you as the teachers of the law tried to do, but that's what we've Jesus said to do. That's what Jesus and Paul both are talking about.

BTW, GUEST, you can find that chapter of Matthew at The Bible Gateway where the major translations of the Bible are available online free. There are some other free sites, that's my favorite due to the breath of translations and the quality of it's search tools.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 08:35 PM

The idea that Paganism is from hell is a belief just like any other belief. It is held by some people, but not others.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 07:45 PM

But rarely do I see the OT pushed at people in the same way!

Notice too that while 'Torah' is provided free as a zipped text file on several sites the NT is on the web but for a price.

The people here who continue to use the NT as a source of alleged utterances of the Jewish Rabbai Yeshua are being misled. See the Hamadi texts for a start.

Perhaps ignoring the rest of the text of the Law where it says ' I am a jealous G_d, put not before me anything...' is a good idea if you want to pray to something else.

But what I do is bad becuase I turn your heads towards the Law that Yeshua commanded you to keep?

The Noahide Law is indeed valid and stands on its own. But it is a shortened version of the full Law. FYI the complete Commandments number 613, but these are not intended for all mankind only Jewish people. I once heard a comical account of this fact by a wit who should have been a Rabbai, he said the Jews could not keep the simple rules ( Noahide law )so G_d came back with a 100 times the burden of Law to teach them a lesson.

And I do not know of anybody who COULD get away with preaching to Xtians that they don't have to keep the 10 commanments.

Final comment - already noted above - the name Jesus is a cover for something far more interesting. In the time Yeshua lived this sound was Ha Zeus, which is pagan. So when you keep praying to G_d in the name of Zeus, who or what do you think is granting you wishes... warm haw ... hot maybe ... but it is still comming from hell!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:18 PM

Georgiansilver

Just to remind you, to us Jews, Jesus is not God or a diety. A fine man, yes. But not one who we feel hasn't the right to re-write what was divinely given to our people on 2 tablets on Mt. Sinai.

Keep this in mind, GS. New testament bible spouting can be found on many cable channels at any time of the day by a whole cast of characters.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:17 PM

except that, that's how they do things in the USA

LOL McGrath. It looks like you think we're all the same (all 270 odd million of us).

*G*

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,Mack/Misophist
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:02 PM

One phrase that keeps cropping up here is "I am the fulfillment of the Law". In a lifetime of observing public religion in the United States, I have not seen any detailed concensus of what this means. As a matter of fact, right wing speakers tend to trot it out to defuse any Old Testament citations that go against their arguments. While quoting the OT whenever it pleases them. The average person is bound to be a little confused.

Also, referring to Jesus as Yeshua is proper, I suppose, that being the original form of the name. But why not use the modern English version and call him Joshua? That should confuse everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:46 PM

Thanks for answering, Georgiansilver.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:35 PM

Carol...Happy to reply to your question. There are many thousands of people all over the world who call themselves Christians but tend to forget the CHRIST bit of CHRISTian. He told us to keep HIS Commandments not the ten...these can be found in Matthew chapter 5. They do not include keeping the Sabbath, as Jesus BROKE the Sabbath with His disciples by picking grain(working)This not working on the Sabbath was Old Testament law and not relevant today.. Jesus...as was pointed out by a learned colleague in an earlier writing...broke many laws of the OT because He brought with Him the NEW Testament. The New Covenant..the New law was to -do all the thing concerned with loving each other as He loved us and to living a righteous life - John 15-12 was what Jesus added to the Commandments he brings to fulfilment from the OT in Matthew 5. The whole New Covenant is about doing Right..not wrong things...which is really covered in Jesus one Commandment..John 15-12...says. "This is my Commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you". Do you not think that the total of that one Commandment..if taken on board by everyone in the world...would bring world peace...and love...and understanding..and wisdom...and compassion. and..should I go on???
Hope this clarifies things a little or a lot.
Best wishes and God Bless. Georgiansilver

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:40 PM

GUEST - It's not that the ten commandments are irrelevant. I understand that the law culd not be changed.

But Christians believe that Jesus (Yeshua?) fulfilled the law by his death and resurrection. Jewish law was split into three basic categories: Ceremonial, moral and religious. Jesus fulfilled two of these categories, meaning that the Jewish ceremonial and religious laws no longer had to be observed.

The Passover was symbolic (Christians believe, and IMMHO) of the crucifixion (slaughter of the lamb saving God's people). Once the Crucifixion occured, such ceremonies were no longer necessary.

Jesus placed the two most important commandments above the original confining ten. This frees Christians by letting them do what is right, rather than what stringent religious law dictates.

Georgiansilver, I think I may have repeated what you said, much more eloquently, previously, so my apologies. I've enjoyed reading your posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:27 PM

But now it seems to have turned into a bash-the-other-fella's-religion, and a put-the-worst-possible-construction-on-any-differences-without-making any-effort-to-understand-them sort of thread.

I don't know if you're including my posts in this statement of yours, McGrath, but if you are, you couldn't be more wrong.

As far as my question to Georgiansilver is concerned, since I live in the US, and Martin Gibson lives in the US, and since we are both impacted by the actions of people who try to promote the practices of certain religions over others here where we live, this is most certainly a legitimate question.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:21 PM

Why should anyone draw any kind of general conclusions from anything that happens in the USA, except that, that's how they do things in the USA? That isn't meant in an unfriendly way, just a reminder that the USA is just a small part of a big world.

At one point this was a thread about people being curious about how things were done differently in other religions, and how far they were pretty similar sometimes under the differences. But now it seems to have turned into a bash-the-other-fella's-religion, and a put-the-worst-possible-construction-on-any-differences-without-making any-effort-to-understand-them sort of thread. Is this really such a good idea?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:07 PM

So maybe you can answer Martin Gibson's question, Georgiansilver. If the 10 Commandments of Moses have been replaced, why are so many Christians so adamant that they be a part of secular life in the US today?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:06 PM

Except, GS, those who don't accept the NT aren't bound by the NT and, I for one, wouldn't even begin to try to force it on them. Nor would I try to force the dictates of the OT on anyone, or the teachings of the Buddha or Mohammed or Lao Tzu or anyone else.

In general:

I'll settle for you being a decent, responsible human being. If you feel the need to be saved, save yourself; I've got enough trouble of my own. If you feel the need to preach, I know of several open fields where you won't disturb anyone and the mountain lions won't disturb you. If you feel the need to save me, I suggest a top-notch protective vest.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 03:53 PM

Hey Rapaire, at last someone who knows what they are talking about and hey...to the others...I tried to explain that the ten Commandments have been replaced in my last little foray into these pages...please read my previous writing on this and see which of the Commandments still exist by the word of Jesus the CHRIST in CHRISTian.
His Commandments are the ones that count..
OLD Testament..NEW Testament..OLD Covenant...NEW Covenant...get it????
We have changed from the Old to the NEW by the Grace of God through Jesus death and resurrection..as foretold by John the Baptist and prophesied in the Old Testament in Isaiah 52.
Followers of the CHRIST....who is JESUS...are CHRISTians. As such they follow His words and His Commandments.
Best wishes and God Bless, Georgiansilver

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 03:23 PM

This is what the Wikipedia site has to say about it:

All denominations of Jews hold that gentiles are not obligated to follow Halakha; only Jews are obligated do so. Judaism has always held that gentiles are obligated only to follow the seven Noahide laws; these are laws that the oral law derives from the covenant God made with Noah after the flood, which apply to all descendants of Noah, i.e. all of mankind. The Noahide laws are derived in the Talmud (Tractate Sanhedrin 57a), and are listed here:

1. Murder is forbidden.
2. Theft is forbidden.
3. Sexual immorality is forbidden.
4. Eating the flesh of a living animal is forbidden.
5. Belief in, and/or prayer to idols is forbidden.
6. Blaspheming against God is forbidden.
7. All gentile societies must establish a system of legal justice to administer these laws.

I can't tell you why Christians follow the Commandments from Moses rather than Noah, except that maybe they consider that to be a logical extension of the origins of their religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 02:58 PM

Carol C., that's kind of bullshit that the 10 Commandments were to apply for Jews only. If that is the case, why was there all that big hoopla recently about that judge way down there in your neck of the woods carrying on about having the 10 commandments in the courthouse and all of those rightous Christians carrying on when it was ordered removed?

I can assure you, as one who practices and observes Judiasm, that there is never any "laws to Noah" ever refered to in any services from any prayer book, nor is there little, if any reference to these so called Noah laws in the Torah. Noah was really a pretty minor character in the scheme of things.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 02:31 PM

As I said before, I'm neither a Christian nor a Jew, but this thread got me curious about the differences in how Christians and Jews view the Old Testament.

I spent a few hours wandering around in the Wikipedia on-line encyclopedia yesterday, seeing what people had to say about it in there. It was a fairly interesting few hours. One thing I learned, that I did not previously know, is that there was supposed to have been a set of commandments that preceded the ones given to Moses. Those were the ones given to Noah, and those were supposed to apply to all of mankind, since (according to the Wikipedia site), the Old Testament holds that all of mankind is descended from Noah. According to the entries in the Wikipedia site, the commandments given to Moses were supposed to only apply to Jews.

So apparently there is a tradition in the Old Testament of people getting new sets of commandments from God and applying them to new religious paradigms as they are purported to be given to people from God, as would have happened in the case of Moses getting the new set of commandments that were to apply only to Jews.

In fact, I noticed that it was a fairly frequent practice for people to get new sets of instructions from God (G*d), and then take their followers in all kinds of new directions as a result. So it looks to me like it would have been in keeping with prior Jewish practices for someone like Jesus to say that he had received new instructions from God (a new covenent, as someone else said here), and for him to anticipate that the whole of the Jewish faith might follow him in this new direction. I'm guessing he wouldn't have anticipated that, rather than taking his established faith in a new direcion, he would have been starting an entirely new faith.

Anyway, here's a link to the page in the Wikipedia site that talks about Jewish Law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 02:30 PM

As Mr Gibson asked about the other holidays perhaps I have to restate the glaringly obvious point in yet another way.

When Yeshau kept all of them why do Christians not keep any Jewish holidays? And if you think that the OT is irrelevant I want you to think about this one, Yeshua left no written records, so all that you read is third hand or worse. Why would you reject the Laws given you by the creator directly and take a sidestepping way around the Law then to live an evil life?

Ask yourself this - how could you safely drive your car if you did not know the rules of the road. So loving people is not enough, you have to know right from wrong to do that. The Commandments provide the rules, you need to know them in order NOT to commit crimes against your neighbor.

If it helps, do love the neighbor as well, but if you move into my 'hood' I would love you a lot more if I knew you kept G_d's Law.