BS: Poverty in the USA

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: kendall
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 07:47 AM

Very interesting thread. Now, I was raised in the poorest county of one of the poorest states in the union. I have seen poverty first hand. I know the damage it does to one's psyche. So, tell me this: How many of you were born into such poverty, as opposed to most of you who have only been observers?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 07:14 AM

Too much readin' and too little time before work today...

Will be back this evening...

Values??? Yeah, Janie, and we can run with them for quite awhile...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Wordsmith
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 01:12 AM

Now, on to the piece I came prepared to share:

Excerpts from:The New York Times Magazine
3.18.07 p.15-17
The Way We Live Now

A Slow Emancipation
In Africa as in America,
slavery's legacy continues to unfold
across the generations.
By Kwame Anthony Appiah

Once, when I was a child in Kumasi, Ghana, I asked my father, in a room full of people, if one of the women there was really my aunt. She lived in one of the family houses, and I'd always called her auntie. In memory, I see her lowering her eyes as my father brushed the question aside, angrily. Later, when we were alone, he told me that one must never inquire after people's ancestry in public. There are many Ashanti proverbs about this. One says simply, Too much revealing of origins spoils a town. And here's why my father changed the subject: my "auntie" was, as everyone else in the room would have known, the descendant of a family slave.

My father was trying to avoid embarrassing her, although I don't think he regarded her ancestry as an embarrassment himself. Undlike her ancestors, she could not be sold; she could not be separated against her will from her children; she was free to work wherever she could. Yet in the eyes of the community - and in her own eyes - she was of lower status than the rest of us. If she could not find a husband to provide for her (and a prosperous husband was unlikely to marry a woman of her status), the safest place for her was with the family to which her ancestors had belonged. So she stayed.

(Then the article goes into the history of that country's slavery and more of the writer's recollections. The last two paragraphs are where I had my epiphany.)

But the politics of abolition and redemption, now as then, go only so far. You can legislate against the peshgi (my insertion: a debt that must be worked off) system, pass laws regulating working conditions and, in a dozen ways, deny legal recognition to the slaveholder's claim to manage the lives of his slaves. You cannot thereby command respect for them or grant them self-respect, because these things are not within the power of the market or legislature. Nor can you guarantee that someone who has experienced only slavery will be prepared to manage a life alone, even if he had the money to do so. There's no neat toggle switch between slave and free.

The woman I asked my father about is not a slave. but she carries on something crucial to the enslavement of her ancestors. Beyond the possibility of being sold away and the impossibility of making your own decisions, slavery meant that certain people were hereditarily inferior. You can abandon the slave markets and demand that all who work are paid for their labor and free to leave it, but even if you succeed, the stigma and the status won't give way so easily. That's why I haven't told you her name. Emancipation is only the beginning of freedom.

I'm not sure if some will get the connection between these paragraphs I've excerpted, but if you substitute poverty for the word slavery, perhaps, the light will glimmer in your mind, too. I thought this might help some who don't seem to get the subject in its entirety. If a society views its poor as if it were their fault they are poor, instead of taking responsibility for the social structures that keep them "in their place" and refuses to acknowledge the way society has actually caused the poverty to grow rather than be reduced, then the poor, even equipped with the tools to get them out, probably won't be able to abandon the life and communities in which they've lived their entire lives. Of course, there are exceptions...there always are, but when even some of the very people, who are there to help them, make them "feel their place" through each encounter, well, how can they escape? And, if even the workers make that feeling felt, how do you think the ones in society that are actively trying to make sure they never leave their situation treat them when they try?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Wordsmith
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 01:04 AM

There have been many valid topics raised since I was here last, but I can't speak to them now. Before I forget, I did want to thank Bobert for his well-presented case study of Adam. I remembered it after I'd logged off and was hitting the hay. It is a shame it ended sadly.
The discussion of the changes in welfare and other comments early on reminded me of a patient who was being seen in a clinic I ran. She was an older client...nice lady...who was on welfare...food stamps, etc. who had sarcoidosis. She was very positive, despite her own illness and living situation. She was divorced, and her husband was supposed to be providing her with alimony, but the state couldn't find him. (More on that later.) In addition, she was unemployable. To make matters worse, she had a child, who she adored. I think he was about 5...but this was almost 30 years ago, so forgive my memory lapses. He had cystic fibrosis. (Yeah, I couldn't make this up if I tried.) The woman was in a constant battle with social services because they wanted her to put her child in an institution. Not because she wasn't taking good care of her son, which she did. She was well-groomed herself and smart. At a hearing, she pointed out that it would cost the state, at that time, $1000 a month to institutionalize her son, yet all she wanted was a $500 a month increase in his care benefits. The state, naturally, refused to see the logic in this argument. I'm serious. We couldn't believe it. Still, she forged ahead. Her son was thin and pale and, well, a mess, but she had a stroller...one of those foldable kinds...which she had rigged with his oxygen tank and all of the gear she needed to suction him, which he frequently needed. You could feel the love when she entered a room.
At any rate, one day she came into our offices...we were in a state-owned and operated building, a floor just above the Public Health Nursing Dept. We operated several of our FP clinics onsite, as well as another set of clinics in a house offsite. She'd been crying, and after we'd calmed and sat her down, we asked what had happened. She had her son with her, and he seemed his usual self. Well, amid further tears, she told us that welfare had discovered, during an unannounced visit to the house she rented an apartment in, that she had a male living with her...he was also on welfare. They gave her an ultimatum...either he went or both their benefits would be adjusted to...well, you get the picture. Back then, you were not allowed to share rooms or apts. if you weren't married. That meant two men or two women on welfare weren't allowed to do so either. Which, of course, led us to wonder, well, then, how the heck was anyone to get ahead? We set the client up with our onsite social worker, who knew how to wring the most out of the system with the least amount of ruffled feathers. (BTW, the husband? Our client kept giving welfare his address and phone number, yet they couldn't find him in the next town over? This was before NYS got the legislature to pass the aptly-called "deadbeat dad" law and got the justice system to enforce it rigorously.) That's just one story out of how many? I have more. Even now, though, it takes a lot out of me to relate, let alone relive, them as I do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 11:02 PM

Let's talk about values and they way values help and hinder finding effective means to alleviate poverty and deprivation.

I'm too tired to articulate this well, but I want to toss it out now, lest I forget or decide it is too much trouble to articulate later.

I'm thinking of a a client with a child in a Headstart program. A number of times she has expressed dismay about the lunches the children in the program receive. I actually think they are very good lunches. But she considers them to be seriously lacking because they are often vegetarian lunches with no meat and light on the starches. She is truly outraged by this. To her, vegetarian chili is an outrage. She sees it solely as cost-cutting at the expense of her child's nutrition.

Her position is certainly partly about ignorance. but it is also about values and past experience. A real meal has meat, and that is all there is to it. In her life and experience (she grew up very poor in rural North Carolina,) if there is no meat on the table, it is because the family can't afford it. And she didn't grow up in a family that had nutritional information, so a meatless meal was also a very meager, unbalanced meal. Her dismay at the Headstart lunches reveals her values about food and nutrition, not merely her ignorance about the same. You can (and I have to a small degree) provide nutrition education, but she ain't buying. Why? Because the issue is one of values and not just lack of information or education.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 09:57 PM

Serious lack of funding to subsidize day care here, also, Bobert. Day care services have always been underfunded. I'm not sure of the why's on that. I think the States have to put up a significant amount of the funding for day care supplements, and I think the funding comes from a patchwork of assorted programs and grants.

I know little, if anything, about day care supplement programs or funding, but I'm going to speculate that the State doesn't want to get into the business of licensing and regulating every single woman who provides day care in her home. I think I am correct in saying that in North Carolina, the State will only provide day care assistance when the service is provided by a licensed provider (read facility.) And then, only if money is available to do so. To require licensing of home providers would drive many of them out of business, greatly reduce the already tight availability of day care providers, and disrupt the underground economy enough that it would increase the demand for public assistance. I think there is also a good bit of cost shifting to parents and Boards of Education for school age children who attend school-based aftercare programs.

The lack of funding also probably reflects the remnants of that double standard that women so often get caught in--they should stay home and care for there children, but they should also work for peanuts outside the home.

I don't know that I agree that TANF and Work First blame women anymore than did AFDC. The rules and regs. DO continue to operationalize our western/protestant/capitalistic belief that the poor have only themselves to blame.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 10:33 AM

I am ready for the hard questions Bobert but it looks like you are not.

Bobert: I still have never posted a cut 'n paste... All my stuff I come by the ol' fashion way: hard work.

All that stuff you posted on 13 Mar 07 at 07:10 PM was cut and pasted from Mother Jones.

Now again, I am asking you how you figure the US is the richest country in the world?

I researched it the old fashioned way, hard work, and I found out it is #8 down the list.

After we get that straightened out the one in five "fact" is next.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 09:08 AM

Well, Janie, you are completely correct and I do understand that these fathers ain't got a lot of resources and most themselves are livin' in poverty...

I should have made that point...

But with that said, I also think that Welfare Reform places way too much ***blame*** on women... Yeah, I know that one can't really blame victims but that seems to be the crux of Welfare Reform... It's like *** pilin' on*** folks who never had the boots, let alone the bootstraps, with which to pull themselves up...

But I agree that one can't get blood from a turnip...

BTW, what are you seein' in yer area with child care??? 'Round here, and there was just a nice piece in the Post on it, the timebomb factor has kicked in big time and lots of moms can not longer afford to work anymore and the state, with it's budgetary woes, isn't able to pick up the slack... But then again, Virginia isn't big on taxes and is more hung up on building new roads and not kicking more $$$ into child care... I know that N.C. has the 7% sales tax and I believe higher income taxes than Virginia so maybe you all have more resources to cover the Bush administrations failures to keep up...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 12:17 AM

The longer you keep responding to this guy, the more of your time you waste.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 11:48 PM

Bobert:

I see you are quoting those loser stats again.

How can you claim the US is the richest country in thw world when it is #8 in per capita income?

.         Luxembourg         80,288
2.         Norway                  64,193                 
3.         Iceland         52,764
4.         Switzerland         50,532
5.         Ireland         48,604
6.         Denmark         47,984
7.         Qatar                  43,110                 
8.         United States         42,000
9.         Sweden                  39,694                 
10.         Netherlands         38,618

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 10:37 PM

Bobert, I think you are overgeneralizing too much in your statements about child support and poverty. More than half of non-custodial parents of children on welfare also have incomes below the federal poverty line. (See http://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-05-99-00392.pdf for a 2002 report regarding this from the Inspector General's office. You will need to scroll down to find the appropriate report and section).

While collection efforts and successes by the Office of Child Support Enforcement (OCSE) vary from State to State and County to County, in most places they go after child support for children on welfare quite agressively these days. Through the auspices of the federal OCSE, State OCSE's have many more tools than they did in the 80's to both locate non-custodial parents and to garnish wages and tax returns.

The main problem is this; You can't blood out of a turnip.

Additionally, when OCSE develops and collects child support for a family on welfare, the child support goes to the public assistance agency first to reimburse government for some or all of the amount of public assistance that has been paid to the family. Any arrearages paid by the absent parent are applied first to past public assistance paid to his (or her) children. A majority of these absent parents do not and cannot pay enough child support to equal or exceed the amount of the welfare check the family receives, so government keeps the money.

Here is an example: Mom and one child get a $276 per month TANF check.

Aside:(TANF stands for Temporary Assistance to Needy Families--name changed from AFDC or ADC when the Work First program was implemented--denotes that the assistance ends after X number of years, no matter what. I think the limit is 3 years, but don't for sure right off the top of my head.)

Back to example--Mom gets $276 per month. Once she goes on welfare, OCSE starts agreesively pursuing child support. 18 months later they locate the absent parent, find out he is working at a car wash for $7.00/hour, and start garnishing his wages for $50 per week child support. That equals $215 per month child support ($50 x 4.3 average weeks in a month is how government figures that.) Government keeps it all. In January, they attach his tax refund of $478. that money is kept by the goverment to reimburse itself TANF payments made to his kids during the time before he was located and wages garnished.

His children reap no benefit from the child support that was developed by OCSE 'on their behalf.' Government keeps it all.

I see the logic of this and understand why it is done. There certainly plenty of deadbeat parents around. But the bottom line is this: poor+poor=poor.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 06:22 PM

Something I have been meaning to get around to in this discussion of poverty and why rather then seein' it in decline we have had larger percentages of poor people every year going back several years and that is the "Welfare Reform Legislation" during Clinton's asministration.... This was terrible piece of **** legislation that was not comprehensive enough in its scope to actually be effective.... Quite the opposite... It was mean spirited and punitive and took America way back to pre-Great Society days...

It was about as dumb as outlawing cancer...

Hey, I could have understood it if it had included sufficiently funded job training, housing aid, transporation aid and especially child care... The later has been absolutely disgracefull... The pool of money for child care has now been frozen at 2001 **actual dollar amount*** levels... What makes this even worse is that with the time limits on public assistence there are single moms who have tried to play by the rules, get up at 4:30 in the morning, get their kids to day care and get themselves to the bus to begin work at 7:00 making $7.00 an hour or less... But with that ppol of $$$ for child care not changing when new moms become available for the vouchers the moms who have been barely makin' it are now either loosing their vouchers entirely or havin' the value of the voucher reduced to a point where the cart tips back toward abject poverty...

This is what I mean by ill-thouht-out and mean spirited... This is the kind of legislation that one would expect to get from a Congress diminated by men who don't have a clue and this is the legislation that is just now showin' just how enti-human men can be toward blaming women for having kids and not being able to keep "their man" in the home...

It is completely chauvinsitic, cruel and evil...

My hope is that as poverty continues to rise, not just in numbers, but in percentages, that this ill-thoought out bill will be revisited... There are now more women in Congress who understand that nuthing was fixed back in '96... All '96 was was a ticking timebomb...

There are now women having to quit their jobs because they can no longer afford to work??? Can't afford to work, Bobert??? Yeah, can't afford to work...

Here's the part that bugs me the most about Wwelfare Reform... It clearly balmes the women for making poor choices but for every kid in poverty, which BTW is 1 in 5 kids in the country, there is a dad somewhere who isn't taking the balme for poor choices... And guess what???

Give???

Other than court orderd support from divorces, the Beareau of Support Enforcemnt isn't all that excited in bringing the true dead-beat dads into the discussion??? Might of fact, these deadbeats were never seen as being a major part of any plan... Plan, Bobert??? What plan???

That's what I mean...

And so 1 in 5 kids in the richest country in the world will go to bed hungry tonight...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 05:34 PM

I would like to see Dickey hollering down into a dark well and, in return, hearing nothing.

(

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 03:29 PM

Oh, you've noticed that, too, d???

He's like Teribus on steroids...

Very anal...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 01:22 PM

Bobert - Its obvious that Dickey likes to argue for the sake of argument. He very seldom has a point and will go round and round saying absolutely nothing of importance.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 01:05 PM

Bobert: I said they did not post them. They printed them but they did not post them in this thread. You did. That's why I am asking you why you posted them here?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 11:13 AM

Geezer's story is very, very typical of what happens when some one becomes disabled in the USA. There are others dear to us here on the Mudcat who have similar histories.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 07:35 AM

Yo, Dickey,

Hate to burst yer "ah-hah-Bobert-gotcha-bubble" but "Mother Jones ***did very much*** print those stats...

Source: "Mother Jone", May/June 2006, " The Perks of Privilege, How the rich get richer" by Clara Jeffery, Page 24-25...

Have a nice day, Prickey...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 03:04 AM

Its long been said that one of the best reasons for the wealthy to provide for the poor is that if they don't, the poor (who outnumber the rich) will rise up.

In the 60's it was peaceful demonstrations and pleas for reason and compassion. My generation actually tried to change things for the better by becoming social workers and teachers - many have burned out. In Vancouver we are beginning to see something new - violent poverty activists.

In Vancouver, the Anti Poverty coalition and other groups of young, homeless youth are beginning to march and demonstrate aggressively. They are taking over unoccupied building, stealing the Olympic flag, defacing the Olympic clock, marching and confronting police officers. They are very serious about what they are doing and their numbers seem to be growing. These kids are serious.

I wonder if they will be forcefullly disbanded or if others will join them. I wonder if this will spread to other provinces and to the States. It seems to me that angry rebellion by youth is inevitable when there is so little hope. I do think that with the 2010 Olympics on the way, the government will have to deal with the homeless situation. So far, protestors have been dealt with harshly.

I hope that these young people will continue to stand up for the poor and demand better living conditions for everyone. Its going to be a long battle.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Wordsmith
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 01:59 AM

Guest, geezer, might I ask where it is you moved to? I have friends in similar circumstances.

Janie, thanks for that book reference...I'd forgotten about it. I saw the book review for it when it first came out and meant to get it from the library.

dianavan, I have been furious since Bush and Co. have put abstinence at the head of the list of viable birth control methods. Indeed, tying it to aid to Africa, for one, by stipulating that of the $20 million that we were going to give them, one third had to be spent on abstinence training. I was going to offer my services...for that kind of money, I'd promote practically anything...just kidding...actually I couldn't help but wonder why it would cost that much to preach about it..."just don't do it?" Brochures explaining the procedure? Slide shows? "Gee, I like you; want to do it?" "No, I can't. I practice abstinence....so should you!" I could go on...maybe we should start a thread on the very subject. See if we can come up with $6.6 million ways to say, "Sorry, can't have sex with you."

I'm still reeling that the Surgeon General under Bill Clinton...no jokes, now...well, a few...was fired because she promoted self-satisfaction and condoms.

But, to get back to the real issues here. Poverty is a very sad subject...thank you to Donuel for providing that YouTube link. At first, I was lost watching it. I almost broke it off before the clincher came. That was awesome...and awful at the same time.

I once lived in Mexico briefly a long, long time ago. When we were landing at the airport in Mexico City, I saw these tiny structures...well, it was hard to say what they were, but the closer we came to the tarmac, the more I began to get the picture....they were huts....and people were living in them....right next to the runways. Can you imagine? Can anyone fathom the level of poverty that brings one to live that way? It was the first of many vivid images that changed the way I looked at life in general and my own life. But, I will tell you one thing I learned from Ivan Illich while I was studying there, and that is that we must feed the poor...cure what ails them...and, above all, not preach to them. It actually is based on Maslov's Hierarchy of Needs. I recommend the latter as a reference to this very subject. It actually applies to all of life when you think of it.

Peace to you all, I'm tired now and gotta say goodnight!

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 01:09 AM

According to Mother Jones *MARTIN LUTHER KING JR.'s estate charges academic authors $50 for each sentence of the "I Have a Dream" speech that they reprint.*

I am posting this because MLK was a civil rights leader and helped the poor. I believe this is true because I found this to coroborate the assertion:

The 39-year-old entrepreneur and manager of the King estate is banking on the historical deal to be worth between $30 million and $50 million within three years. According to Jones, the estate's mission is "to teach people all over the world about Dr. King and the impact he had on social change in the latter half of this century."

Since his arrival in Atlanta in the late 1970's, Jones, a New York native, has been creating his own business legacy. From his numerous development deals for TV shows such as the animated morning series Da Munchies and the TBS documentary Assassinations: Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King, Jr., to his investment in Atlanta Live, the country's largest Black-owned nightclub, Jones has established himself as a local mogul to be reckoned with.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1264/is_n7_v28/ai_19945622/pg_4

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 12:39 AM

Dear Bobert: Mother Jones did not post those stats.

Why did you post those stats from Mother Jones?

Example:

*The US governemnt soends $500,00 on 8 security screeners who speed execs from Wall Street helipad to American's JFK terminal.

The security is from a private firm and air passengers pay a fee to cover screening. So what good are your stats?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 10:38 PM

I've said it before and I will say it agin, with monotonous regularity -- NATIONAL HEALTH......what happened to Guest - geezer reject of society is a crime -- nothing more and nothing less.........

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,geezer reject of society
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 10:26 PM

Try being a person who is disabled, & well under the poverty level. After an auto accident-which was not my fault-the auto insurance cut me off from any income reimbursement or medical after one year.
I lost my job & most of what I owned except for my best instruments. I used up all of my savings, and when the "settlement" came, I owed over $28,000 in medical bills & the settlement was for $25,000 before attorney's fees. I had to file bankruptcy.
It took 3 1/2 years to get on social insecurity disability, after being turned down 3 times of course. When it was finally granted, the "back pay" was half of the actual amount which I should have been given. (congress saves $$ this way, you see) Medicare is a joke-when you have only a soc security check, you cannot afford to go to a Dr as most Drs don't accept it cause it doesn't pay enough to them, not to mention the deductible, so you end up paying for office visits & most of the RXs.
I no longer have the physical abilities I used to have as a professional musician, and I am in terrible pain every day of my life. The drs these days don't think it's a good idea to have me on painkillers all the time, so I have no pain meds. I had to move to a state which offers medicaid to disabled people in order to have medical. With only a few hundred bucks per month, I certainly can't pay for concert tickets, neither am I able to attend music festivals, it is too painful, anyway.   
Over half of the disabled persons in the USA do NOT have medical. Many end up on the streets, having not enough money to live on even if they get a social security disability check. The upper end of the scale is $816 now, of which about $90 is deducted for medicare.
The waiting list for housing where I live is 5-7 years. Then you get into the projects. If you are very lucky, you have a spouse--I do not--or maybe you live with a relative, however this can be very dificult, as they tend to not understand the seriousness of the pain and depression.
During the welfare reform @15 years ago, I was a caseworker for food stamps, aid to families with dependent children (basic welfare), and medicaid. Now I am one of the throwaways of society with no value according to congress, because I cannot work anymore.
Yes, Virginia, poverty does exhist, and there is no Santa Claus.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 08:08 AM

I agree with you, mg, about your idea of building better structures... We could certainly do this if we had the will to do so... Wood constructed buildings are cheaper to build per square foot and that is why we continue to build them with wood...

As for concrete, yeah, we do have all the resources to build with it but the cost per square is much higher than stick building... It is a dilemma... I'm building a spec house right now that is part block, part brick, part stone (chimney) and the rest wood... The wood is by far cheaper than the brick, block and stone portions...

Again, it comes down to will...

Just like the War on Poverty that the US valently beagan which has been slowly dieing on the vine...

BObert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 07:56 AM

Sorry, folks but Sidebar #2 for Dickey...

First of all. I provided my source for the stats I presented... If you have problems with their stats, fine... Contact them...

But really, what I find objectionable about your posts is that they all seem to have one purpose and that is to change the conversation with endless academic data squabbling... This adds nuthin to the discussion but detracts from it...

During the mad-dash-to-invade-Iraq Teribus used this tactic over and over and would get folks attention diverted away from the meat-'n-taters of the issue into his little narrowly defined academic world... Problem is that it is a nuthin' but a tactic to try to *** control** the conversation from ideas to finy little definitions and insignificant bits and pieces of information...

In other words, what you do here in Mudville is attempt to highjack dicusssions that don't support your obvious partisan positions...

That is a plain as I can say it, Dickey... But i guess you are too right brained ('er left, whichever it is that makes folks want to grow up to be accountants) to see what I'm sayin'...

Now, it's back to Bye...

Write "Mother Jones" if you wanta squabble with the ststa I provided... They were the source...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 02:37 AM

It is frankly sad and horrifying, almost sickening, to see the ideas of the humble and deserving recipients of charity being rolled out here. They are positively pre-Dickensian.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 01:01 AM

"Around here its called an M.R.S. degree." Love that Dianavan!

Yes Dianavan, education, about birth control, drug & alcohol abuse, about health care

& Yes Mg, teach these poor folk life skills, like how to cook a healty meal & sow their own clothes
Show them how to fish.

Whose gonna teach them, that ended in the 70's there is no more money to teach/educate/help poor people.

Poor folks, really poor folks don't have the time for an education, their time is eating up by living, by surviving.
Their kids at 16 are usually out the door trying to make it in their own world because their parents world of being so poor can no longer support them, they are in some cases trying to help support the family where they came from or trying to make it easier on their siblings.

There's a reason why poor kids don't finish high school & it's criminal they they don't/can't. Offer what ever you'd like but until society decides that they're a worthwhile investment, it's not gonna change. And the kids that are impared in one form or another have no hope, they eventually are the make up of our homeless.

The reason college education is being mentioned so much here is we know there's a connection between breaking the poverty glass wall & being educated is the way but that's only the visible leap, the last step in the breaking of the barrier. You get a poor kid through college & they've made it, they're in a bright new world, theyve written history. You've better odds at herding cats or bringing horses to water to drink. You get a poor kid TO college & you're witnessing a blessing.

From when they open their eyes & realize that's not a fur coat around their necks their dreams get shattered. Pre natal care wasn't part of the program & neither will any follow up heath care for life. Child care is pretty much a bartered favor with neighbors , so there goes any pre-schooling or any child rearing education for the parent(s). Because one job doesn't cut it the "kid gets left behind" longer than what's exceptable but they're between a rock & a very hard place & usually under-the-table jobs & under full time employment has no benies so there goes any sick time (that's enough to make a poor folk choke) vacation or holiday pay, it's just unhealthy if someone gets sick. So let's move in with your best friend's family so the rental costs can get cut or rent out some one's room, that's for poor teenagers without kids, (how long can an adult see that as a future) not for their poor folks who are already cramped into a hovel that cost 3X it's worth but they can't manage a house of their own because, well you know the system is against them even though it'd be cheaper for them if they did own. Well, one bad illness would wipe it all out anyway, so.
Well if they did have a spot of land at least someone could teach the to grow a crop, let me see you beat a rat to a root or beat the neighbor to a plant that's old enough to be harvested. Do you see the odds that start to mount, are the pattens starting to show & they're not even off the garden path yet.

Scroll back up to the song above & disect it

It's a "life with no hope" & hope is where you need to start, without it the rest doesn't mean squat.

They live under the gun at every turn of there life, you try to function under those conditions! Can you say PTS

Poor folks you'll find that their "language is foreign, the culture is strange" & so far there's only a few here as far as I can see that have an idea of what being really poor is like.
It's like inmagining you're in a war only you weren't

You don't get it!!!

Some people when they get raped or beaten they don't even go outside again & when they have to they're reliving the fear again & again & again. That fear is the same for anyone that fights to survive day after day after day! My wife used to ask me how come you never get nervous about anyting. I still sit in resturants with my face towards the door. I did finally make it to college after I got a GED & then it was nite school & then I never could get any loans, grants or funds to finish & I was one of the luckier few, I did get to start & run my own construction company but I always had the brains I was more of a survivor than a lot of others, though I don't know why.

I'm not trying to pull rank here & say that you can't imagine unless you were poor too. I'm just trying to give a better insite into the life that many think is so easy to work out of. Some do but it so few in comparison to those that come from a healthier backround that it's criminal that the playing fields couldn't be a bit more on the level seeing as it's those folks that really end up funding the rest.

That brings it all back to the way this nation is structured, fix that & you'll win the war on many fronts not just the war on poverty but it's really not a war our government wants to fight.

Sorry for the long ramble.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 11:32 PM

Wow, Mary.

I had no idea employment standards in the U.S. were so low. In Canada, you need four years to become a dental hygenist and do you realize the kind of wardrobe that is required by a legal secretary? Only two years required for web design? What are the pre-requisites? Besides that, web designers are a dime a dozen. Nursing? Don't even get me started. There must be a shortage of workers in the U.S. because in Canada, you either need a skill(plumber, carpenter, electrician) or a minimum of four years of university to find a job capable of supporting a family and thats with two people working.

If you have a family member to give you an 'in', two years of college might do, but nepotism is frowned upon. Two years of college in Canada will get you into a four year university if you have the GPA, but there are no job guarantees. In fact, unless you have a Master's degree your job prospects are pretty dim unless you want to work for very low wages.

Gone are the days when a high school diploma and a couple of years of college was enough to get a job that would support a family. It won't get you anything except, maybe, a husband with a good job. Around here its called an M.R.S. degree.

And yes, Janie, I know all about the underground economy. I live in B.C. where the traditional resource based industries are gone. The young, unemployed men have little choice but to work under the table. I'm sure its the same in the States. In fact, I lived in a community where money did not change hands. Any money you had was spent elsewhere. Everything, including labour, was bartered.

Its a pretty dismal situation where it is truly damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 10:05 PM

There was a very interesting piece on ,em>All Things Considered this afternoon about the underground economy in poor neighborhoods, how essential it is to survival, and how limiting it is in terms of fostering conditions that would make it possible for people to move beyond survival. It was a long and complex piece that I can not summarize well, but is worth going to the archives to check out.


Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America, Barbara Ehrenreich, Metropolitan Books, New York; 2001. 221 pp. is a real eye opener if you have any illusions about what it is like to try to live on low wages in America.

Read it. Then imagine what it is like to 'live' on even less.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: mg
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 09:07 PM

Construction, drafting, LPN, physical therapy assistant, mechanics, engineering technician, laboratory technicain, medical technicain, dental hygenist, legal secretary, computer programmer, web designer, executive secretary, medical transcriptionist, X-ray technician, property management...etc. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 08:58 PM

I know that its different in Canada but really, what kind of a job will a 2 yr. college diploma get you? If you ever hope to have a family, it wouldn't be enough to get by.

I agree with Bobert, it doesn't really matter how many grants and loans are available to low income families for books and tuitions, most kids that grow up in poverty don't even graduate from high school.

I think the only way to put a dent in this problem is to start by educating students about birth control. Of course this isn't a solution. Some will get pregnant and some will keep their child. The next best thing is to provide food, shelter and incentive for the mothers. Healthy mothers mean healthy babies.

There is no way the problem will get better unless there is a will for it to get better and by demanding that your tax dollars be put to better use. That means funding social programs, including health and education. It will cost money, lots of it, but when you realize how much has been spent on war, you realize the money has always been there it just hasn't been there for the poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: mg
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 08:38 PM

I would add food stamps into the list, with WIC-like restrictions on what could be purchased and agricultural commidities when available, with a smaller amount set aside for treats, junk food, empty calories etc.

I would also like to see us really get serious about construction rules. Why do we have everything made out of wood here? I still can't believe it. It is a constant fight under the best of conditions to keep it from molding and rotting. Under sorrier conditions it blows away in hurricanes and burns and kills people. In floods it can't really be cleaned properly. We have better building materials. I don't understand why we have a cement shortage. We certainly have rocks and sand here and they tend to occur where there are poorer areas. Every public house and I would say every house that wants insurance should in the future be made out of cement or something fire and hurricane and bug and floodproof. Unfortunately, then sometimes they aren't good for earthquakes, which wood is, but this gets back into poverty situations. People in general, and I include myself, do not have the skills that they used to and do not have the time to keep after repairs on houses. They also have some bad habits like drugs that can make their behavior such that they burn things down easier. I would never in a million years build group housing, apartments, shelters, whatever, out of something that burned down or could not be totally steam cleaned. if people had houses that didn't need too much upkeep, that would take a signficiant source of strain and stress away, and why oh why do they keep rebuilding stick houses in the paths of hurricanes. Don't bother answering. there is no ansewr that would satisfy me. It is dumb dumb dumb. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 08:38 PM

Bobert: Instead of attack I should have used the word *point out*. Attack was your word.

I have never seen you so eloquent and your typing has improved immeasurably.

What has brought about this change?

However you still get annoyed when someone points out something you said that was inconsistent, inaccurate or contrary to something you said earlier.

The reason for the thread drift is due to you posting some of your "facts" for the purposes of reinforcing some point you are trying to make.

*Only 3% of students at the top 146 colleges come from families in the bottom income quartile; only 10% come from the bottom half...

*Bush's tax cuts give a 2-child family earning $1M an extra $86
,722- or Harvard tuition, room, board and an iMac G5 for both kids...

*A 2 child family earning $50,000 gets $2,050 or 1/5 the cost of public college for one kid...

If this has no bearing on the discussion, why did you post them?

I have pointed out that college tuition is free to poor people in some areas and under consideration in other areas. Are you objecting because this is a bad thing or a good thing?

UTA, UTD offer tuition free to the poor
Program streamlines, publicizes existing financial aid options

By Jay Parsons

The University of Texas at Arlington and the University of Texas at Dallas on Tuesday announced plans to guarantee free tuition for in-state undergraduate students with family incomes below $25,000.

The two local schools join a University of Texas systemwide push to erase fears among low-income students who believe college isn't affordable. Some of the system schools began programs last year.
http://www.uh.edu/ednews/2007/dmn/200701/200670124tuition.html


A movement to help the poorest students grows at the Ivies
by Anya Kamenetz

You've probably never heard of Gateway Community-Technical College. The fastest-growing of Connecticut's colleges, it occupies a former factory building on New Haven's waterfront but is due to move to a new downtown location next year. Thirty-seven percent of Gateway's 7,391 for-credit students rely on need-based grants from the federal and state government and the school itself, to fund nearly all their direct educational expenses. Eighty-eight percent of the students work, 38 percent full-time, and most are quietly chipping away at a part-time course load, stretching their enrollment out over many years. The average student is a 29-year-old, white, single working mother.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0510,kamenetz,61856,6.html

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 07:54 PM

I posted a lengthy post today that for some reason self destructed. The good news is that I PM'd Joe Offer and found I was not black balled or something awful like that but subject to some sort of computer glitch that eats long posts......

So to try again, I read Littlehawk's post of the 9th and thought that it spoke volumes. He said - let me paraphrase - that if many modern societies provided the following FREE as a basis much would be done to balance out the inequities of the world.....

- all medical expenses
- clean pure drinkingwater
- education from primary through college
- modern maintained and usable highways (I inferred this also means decent free or low priced public transport....)
- a decent police force and justice system
- shelters for the homeless and job training

Doesn't this answer many of the issues that this thread is talking about? One of my daughters dates a young man of 22 who was the child of a single parent, dragged up as best she could by someone who had no parenting knowledge or skills (no role models). By 16 he was living in a series of shelters, with no job skills or training, by 18 he was the father of a child, now 4, whom he does not support. He works 'under the table' for $8 an hour and points out he is better off doing that in Maine than working for a regular job at $11 an hour and paying taxes (and in Maine $11 an hour isn't bad money for someone with no HS diploma and no skills and nothing to offer other than his physical strength......). I see no future prospects for him at all ....... my husband and I put him through some training for the trade of lead removal (not everyone's favorite job but it pays and has benefits....) but when he was offered a job he could not take it because he had no car and no way to get there.
Free public transport AND a decent public transport system would have got him to his place of work....and given him a decent job with benefits....!

The cost of medical care overrides everything......; I pay $1400 a month (A MONTH) for medical insurance. It was pointed out to me recently that I was lucky to be able to afford the premiums and I fully accept that........; but this is insane!!! I was talking to my sister, in England, recently about the whole issue of national health, or lack of, here. She said, as many English people do, that National Health is not what I remembered and one had to wait for things like elective surgery...I figured I could live with that! At the end of the conversation when I had reiterated again and again what the lack of national health meant, my sister said - yes, but, surely anyone who is pregnant gets health care - right? Wrong I said. But she could not conceive of a country that did not provide that basic level of health care.......let alone the richest country in the world......

And then we have the issue of the schools and what they provide or don't provide. I have a son with learning disabilities -- significant ones. If he were the son of people with different lifestyles than ours he would have dropped out, or failed out, of school already. Because we are self employed and can run to the school at the drop of a hat. he is still in school, and God (or someone) willing, will graduate this summer. We fight about his support in the school system (or lack thereof) or his accommodations (or lack thereof). If classes had ten students or fewer, this would not be an issue - with ten students in a class the teachers could handle an LD child in a class -- they could work with different students at different levels at the same time.....

But of course, we have a war to pay for.........

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 07:11 PM

This thread is somehow moving less toward poverty in America toward the problems of financing college...

Lets get real here... For most kids that grow up in poverty college isn't a goal or even on the radar screen... Heck, a high school diploma would be a great achievment...

This conversation about college, while intersting, has little do do with the subject at hand... It is, for the most part, a middle class conversation...

Mg, I hate to get on you again 'cause I know that in yer heart you belive very strongly in man's ability to survive adversity but...

...people tend to learn life skills very early and if there aren't the kind of role models to teach kids these skills... Kids that don't get them early ain't gonna get 'um later... What they are gonnna get is inforamtion from their peers who tend to be like themselves... By the time these kids get into their teens, unless we have thousands of Job Corpes like programs to bring these kids into the game, they won't develope these skills... Sure, you could live on $1000 a month... So could I... So could most folks who grew up in situations where these skills were taught...

I hate to keep harping on this but if you are going to be good working in any social program it's important that you at least understand that your clients don't have the same skills as you... If you truely want to help them, recognize this very important part of helping people...

Yeah, I know it is tough... And it is frustratin' but once you internalize it then you can maybe try to be what, in the wrods of the late Carl Rogers, "client centered" where you recognize that your client does not have your world of life view... It's hard to teach folks how to get there but if you can just try to see that your clients won't make the choices you would make, it makes it easier... They will make inappropraie choices and for you to say, "Hey, if you'd just do this or that then...." ain't gonna do much more than drive them away...

I'm sorry... It was the hardest lesson for me to learn but once I did then, as a social worker, it made my job easier... And, no, I'm not saying that you don't have expectations for your clients because you should... It's just that you might try setting those expectations not on what you can do with a $1000 a month but what they can reasonably do with it...

Like I said, I'm sorry but if I can just get you to see that then as long as you work with people you will be more effective... Carl Rogers called it "unconditional positive regard" and it has really to do with yer client and not you...

Enough on that topic... By now, I've either broken thru or I haven't...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 06:40 PM

Mary - Nobody expects those who are working for minimum wage to supplement those who have attended university. If that is what is happening, we need to take a serious look at the tax structure.

------------------------
That is exactly what is happening right now. People in US paying minimum wage and earning very little do pay taxes that subsidize education. And we should take a look at the tax structure and way reduce it for lower income and I dont really care how much upper income people make and I don't care if they double my taxes either. And I want us to reform and simplify taxes and get rid of obvious tax scams particularly.
---------------
I agree with Ebbie. After slogging your way through university and finally landing a job, repayment of your loan should be a reasonable percentage of your newly acquired income. It is reasonable to expect that a person with a university level job would have enough money to dress professionally, pay for living expenses and transportation as well as balance the demands of their job with liesure time activities. They have probably had to move away from home to find that job and it takes time and money to furnish an apartment, as well.
---------------------------

it takes very very little money to furnish an apartment the way most college students and those newly graduated furnish them..a garage sale here, parents' attic there, friends passing on stuff. They don't need to spend much money on furnishing...I doubt I have ever bought new or expensive furniture in my life. Right now, the room I essentially live in, about 10 x 10, and could live in half the space and share with a roommate if necessary, consists of one second-hand bed,one exercise machine, a Costco table, computer, free TV and TV stand and ironing board and folding chair. It is not bad. If I have this much for the rest of my life I will consider myself lucky. There are other areas of the house I could use, and I am buying this prefab house if I can hang on to it, which I might not be able to. But essentially I live in the equivalent of a rented room with shared bath...

-------------------------------
When I left university, I was working part-time, raising two teen-aged kids, paying for a 3-bedroom apartment and the bank wanted $400.00 a month. My part-time work was required on order to obtain a full time position. I didn't own a stick of furniture, except my kids' beds nor did I own any kitchen appliances let alone major appliances. I was trapped and being threatened with credit collection. The minute I was given a full-time contract, they threatened to garnishee my wages.

Not all situations are as neat and tidy as you think they are, Mary, and you should stop using your own personal circumstances to judge others. In fact, it may be your life that is abnormal. Many, many people start life with very little and do not have family to fall back on.

My student loan debt was $50,000.00. Had I been on welfare for the same period of time, the govt. would have given me the same amount of money tax free. If people are to become educated, there must be some incentive. Threatening people or making them feel guilty is no incentive at all. Re-paying a loan with interest for the rest of your life, is punishment for daring to break free from a cycle of poverty.
------------------
They shouldn't be paying off loans for the rest of their lives. That is what I am saying. I offered a simple, doable scenarioro for a single, unencumbered person paying off loans through a state college, the one I work for in fact, in 5 years, without living in poverty. Simplicity perhaps. Poverty, no. Luxuries: a few. Doable? It is done all the time. This is not a bad situation. THis is a situation 90% of the world would love to be in. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 06:02 PM

Sorry, folks, for that little house-keepin'...

Ahhhhh, Janie was talkin' about how the safety net and how it has become almost non-existent and I was trying to add somehting related to that which I have finally gotten aroud to and that is a case study of a client I had who experienced quite a bout of "downward mobility"... And this was during the time when the net was alot stronger...

When I was in social work and would recieve a new case I would take the file home with me so that I could at least scan the various notes that other case workers, case managers, social workers, etc had made so that I'd have a certain understanding of a new client and what had been done and what worked for a while and what didn't and...

...as much as it pains me to say, most fell into very predictable categories... No, I'm not sayin' anything like "seen one, seen 'um all" but there were some definate patterns in terms of behavior, treatments, failures and successes, tho success had to be constantly redefined...

But then I got this young man, Adam (real name protected) who just din't quite fit the usual models... He had attended Randolph Macon College in Asland for 2 years and had come from an upper class family from the suburbs of Richomnd...

Adam had experienced some mild schizophrenic episodes in his teens, had been seen and treated in various private and public facilities and did very well until his 2nd year in college... Yeah, okay, this was the 70's but Adam wasn't a partier, didn't abuse drugs, didn't use alcohol at all and was deeply spiritual but...

...the episodes were no longer as easily controlled with medications and became dehibiliting... He dropped out of school and stayed at his parents house but during the bad times he would be in his room yelling at the walls... His parents tried to get him more private help but Adam wouldn't participate with any consistency and the bad times became longer in duration and, frankly, he must have scared his parents to death...

Finally, they confronted him with an altimatum to go in-patient or leave... He left...

Over the next 4 or 5 years Adam found hiumself in Central State Hospital, jails, flop houses, church sponsored homes, etc. and even occasionally back at his parents house but he just didn't stabilze...

I recieved his case in 1978 and picked him up at Central State Hospital in Petersburg, Va. along with another new client and he was very articulate and came accross as kinda shy and we talked about all kinds of stuff on the 45 minute trip back to Richomnd... He was every intelleget and well read which was something I rarely found in new clients from Central State... And he was close shaved and clean... Something else which stood out...

I took him directly to the eligility department and was able to get him a rent voucher while he waited to get his $56 monthly general relief check and Food Stamps... I then took him to one of my better flop houses on Grace Street (flop house row) and got into a room in the back of the house... I liked this particualr house because the lady who ran it also prepared meals for some of the folks...

Well, I went back two days later to see how Adam was doing and was amazed that he had done something I can't say I remember any of my clients doing... He had bartered with the landlady and had gotten some paint and had fixed his room up very nice... And he had created a little area for his religious studies and had a meditation rung with a small table with his Bible on it with candles and all...

(See, Janie, why I rmember this client so vividly???)

Adam kept all his appointments at Mental Health, stayed on his medications and seemed to be doing fine...

Fine???

Well, okay... Schizophrenic folks kinda stand out a little and most folks are slightly uncomfy around them even where they are doing, ahhhh, fine...

So, one day I got a call from Adam... He wanted to go to Philadelphia to see an old friend but was afraid to go for fear of being locked up or institutionalized... Hey, I can understand how he must have felt since he had spent 5 years in and out of jails and hospitals so I crafted a letter that he could present to any authority who stopped him on his trip telling them that he wasn't a daager to anyone, got some $$$ for the rround trip bus trip and set him on his way...

He was scheduled to be gone for 3 0r 4 days but...

...when I hadn't heard from him after a week was more than a little concerned so I went to the rooming house and his landladt said he hadn't returned...

...hmmmmmmm?

About a month later I got a call from a social worker in Trenton, N. J.... Adam had been living uder a bridge and had been badly beaten by another homeless person... Porbably a territorial thing... But Adam had the letter with him and so we arranged to get him back to Richmond...

I picked him up at the bus station... He wasn't doing well... He had scabs all over his face... I doubt if he even tried to defend himself because he was so timid but we had him back and his landlady was happy to see him and he got back on his meda and seemed to be doing okay...

Then I got to work one mornin' and there were half a dozen frnatic messages for me from his landlady...

...Adam had somehow gotten a gun and killed himself the night before...

Sniff...

Well, my frineds, Adam is one case study... And these were times when the safety net was stronger... Would an Adam take his life today??? Maybe... But that is not the issue here... What is the issue is that regardless of how one might think that being poor can never happen to them, it can... Here was a kid seemed to be on the fast track in the world yet found himself fallen pray to a nother homeless person under a bridge in Trenton, N.J...

And that was when the safety net was strong...

Sorry about the long post but...

And, Adam, I hope you are in a better place....

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 05:44 PM

I'm with Bobert: Buzz off, Dickey.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 05:23 PM

I only attack what I see as the use of "facts" that the poster does not know to be true and does not care if they are true in order to prove a point.

This is especially telling when the poster self righteously claims that he is against using these "facts" while at the same time using these "facts".

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 05:03 PM

Mary - Nobody expects those who are working for minimum wage to supplement those who have attended university. If that is what is happening, we need to take a serious look at the tax structure.

I agree with Ebbie. After slogging your way through university and finally landing a job, repayment of your loan should be a reasonable percentage of your newly acquired income. It is reasonable to expect that a person with a university level job would have enough money to dress professionally, pay for living expenses and transportation as well as balance the demands of their job with liesure time activities. They have probably had to move away from home to find that job and it takes time and money to furnish an apartment, as well.

When I left university, I was working part-time, raising two teen-aged kids, paying for a 3-bedroom apartment and the bank wanted $400.00 a month. My part-time work was required on order to obtain a full time position. I didn't own a stick of furniture, except my kids' beds nor did I own any kitchen appliances let alone major appliances. I was trapped and being threatened with credit collection. The minute I was given a full-time contract, they threatened to garnishee my wages.

Not all situations are as neat and tidy as you think they are, Mary, and you should stop using your own personal circumstances to judge others. In fact, it may be your life that is abnormal. Many, many people start life with very little and do not have family to fall back on.

My student loan debt was $50,000.00. Had I been on welfare for the same period of time, the govt. would have given me the same amount of money tax free. If people are to become educated, there must be some incentive. Threatening people or making them feel guilty is no incentive at all. Re-paying a loan with interest for the rest of your life, is punishment for daring to break free from a cycle of poverty.

Just because I now make good money, doesn't mean that I'm rich. There are debts to be paid. In fact, Mary, my lifestyle changed very little from my pre-college days. The biggest difference was that I no longer worried about how to pay the rent or whether or not there would be enough food on the table. Above all else, I found the self confidence and acquired enough language to defend myself against those who would try to make me feel like I was a burden on society. My children have reaped the benefits of my education and nobody can ever take that away from me.

Take the blinkers off, Mary, you are in no position to judge.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 05:02 PM

Sidebar to Dickey,

Do you want to participate in this discussion or just attack every danged little thing I say here???

If you want to participate, fine...

If not, go find another thread where people actually give a danged about you, your ideas (what ever they are???) and yer little sniping...

Like I said on the last thread yuou completely highjacked with yer baitin' and bullcrap, you are a jerk...

And until you allow yourself to become part of this discussion I'll do what I did in the last thread that you highjacked with yer juvenile behavior and that is...

...ignore yer self righteous, jerk self...

Bye, Part 2 (or is it now 3???)

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 02:13 PM

its probably been posted already http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxvIvd7ecak

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 01:47 PM

Good luck.

Now back to the original premise of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 01:36 PM

I am flabbergasted. I don't consider someone 22 or so years old to be a youngster. I would not want to turn a young adult loose on the world that could be putting clothing, dvds etc. before paying off debt. Are we asking taxpayers, many of whom are supporting families on $1000 a month..to subsidize these parties and CDs and concerts for these "youngsters?" Yes, I believe we are. It is astonishing. This is not dire poverty we are talking about. This is what I would call irresponsibility. The people I somewhat work with are shucking oysters for minimum wage or vacuuming hotel rooms seasonally. That is who is paying for these dreams explored and coming true. Not boss hog. As for relationships, they should be looking for likewise responsible people who put paying off debt ahead of incurring more or asking others to subsidize it. I am again not talking about dire poverty scenarios..just poorly trained, in my opinion, young people.   mg

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 01:24 PM

This conversation reminds me of an elderly and wealthy friend I used to have (He has since died).It was his contention that he actually spent less than I did and therefore it was I was being profligate.

In actual cash it may have been true- but he failed to include all the things he already had in place, things like cars, home, contacts, rental properties, large farm (which he leased to someone else), good quality clothing - and lots of it - that wore like iron, credit line, little night life, abstemious lifestyle... In any given month he didn't have to spend much cash.

Any youngster just out of college may be responsible way beyond his years- but he is still a youngster with all the emotions that entails. He and she want relationships, dreams explored and coming true, parties, clothing, concerts and CDs and DVDs and maybe, even, their own wheels.

To expect a youngster to live like my elderly friend is not realistic. Waiting for five years before he and she can start acting young is not realistic. Becoming debt free by the age of 27 is not realistic.

I have no doubt but that it can be done- but expecting it or requiring it it is not realistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 12:20 PM

Good Golly Miss Molly. I could easily live on $1000 a month and get a room in a shared house in the cities I know of, Seattle and Portland, for under $400 or split an apartment with two or three people or take care of an elderly person in exchange for free rent or stay with relatives and do some of the housework in exchange for reduced but not free rent. If necessary, I could do odd jobs or get a Saturday job housecleaning or doing whatever. I fail to see the problem. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 11:20 AM

Bobert:

If "college ain't a real issue here since poor kids very rarely get to attend college"

Why do you cite statistics on the subject? Remember you said "Like they say, stats are for loosers....

You ain't gonna hear a bunch of stats outta me 'cause I don't need 'um"


I agree that college is not the real problem because there are plenty of opportunities for poor kids to attend college.

The problem is that so many of them do not finish high school.

Why is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 11:02 AM

"Pay it off at $500/month (and think of what jobs you are likely to get before taking on a debt)or $6K a year and gone in 5 years. I am assuming a takehome pay of $1500/month and being able to live as a single person on $1000 a month, which I don't know why a healthy person could not." mg

Good god. I realize that you are posting that only as one scenario among many but this one is seriously flawed.

$500 a month repayment? With take-home pay at $1500 (good luck!), what about rent, utilities and food? When rent alone will cost you somewhere between $600 and $1300 a month? Frankly, $50.00 is more realistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Wordsmith
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 11:54 PM

I just want to add a few comments. I vote, yet I feel, as I'm sure many do, that I have absolutely no control over what happens both before and after the elections to those we have elected. This is primarily, I feel, due to PACs, of which most average Americans, I think, are not members. It all comes down to the HAVES and the HAVENOTS, doesn't it ultimately, and this is despite the fact that the HAVENOTS far outnumber the HAVES, and I'm sure the numbers are growing.

We were unable to change what Reagan did to the system...it has just gotten worse since then. All we could do is keep going to work and hoping we made a difference, and we did! There is plenty we can do individually, and I'm sure those who are doing it should be congratulated. Should this keep us from trying? Absolutely not! Peace.

Someone mentioned Pell grants, and it rang a bell in my dusty brain. I did a quick search and settled on Wikipedia's entry on the subject, knowing that their reliability is sometimes questionable due to user amendments. That said, here is what I found:
"Pell Grant
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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The Pell Grant program is a type of post-secondary education federal aid provided by the Federal government of the United States, and is the largest need-based grant aid program in the country. It is named after Senator Claiborne Pell, though its actual name is the Basic Educational Opportunity Grant program. They are awarded based on a "financial need" formula determined by the U.S. Congress using criteria submitted through the Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA).

Because of the high levels of need required to obtain a Pell grant, receipt of them is often used by researchers as a proxy for low-income student attendance.

Federal budget legislation passed in early 2006 cut the federal financial aid budget by $12.5 billion. While the maximum Pell Grant legislative limit was raised to $5,800 through 2011, maximum Pell grant awards were not funded at this level. The maximum award available to students has been frozen at $4,050 since 2003-04.

For 2006-07, the maximum Pell grant available to students remains $4,050. Due to high increases in the cost of post-secondary education and slow or no growth in the Pell grant program, the value of Pell grants has eroded significantly over time. In 2005-06, the maximum Pell grant covered one-third of the yearly cost of higher education at a public four-year institution; twenty years ago, it covered 60% of a student's cost of attendance, this however also allows a greater number of students to benefit.

President Bush signed legislation into law on February 15, 2007, to fund most federal programs, including education programs, for the remainder of the 2007 fiscal year and increased the maximum Pell Grant by $260 to $4,310. This is the first increase to the maximum award since 2003. The rise in the maximum Pell Grant award is effective on July 1, 2007."

Hardly a drop in the bucket of higher education, sadly.
I do want mention that "a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." And then, you just keep putting one foot down after the other. I enjoyed the time I spent working with the poor, and doing the best with what I've had to work with at any given time. Can we as individuals do better? Yes. Can we as a nation do better? Not until we find a way to effectively break the stranglehold that people of wealth and power have on the way things are done.