Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 12:52 PM

...on the other hand, some legendary performers delivered memorable, albeit sloppy performances probably in part due to the influence of the chemical cocktails they were ingesting, not in spite of them. Until the drugs eventually took their toll, these artists tended to lose their edge when they stopped living on it....

If the audience is expecting surgical precision in the execution of evenly spaced eighth and sixteenth notes, then altered states of consciousness are not going to be beneficial. However, in certain venues some listeners are interested more in coming away from a performance changed by the raw intensity brought on by the breakdown of inhibitions that drugs can sometimes induce, and care less about a few wrong notes or slurred words; even less, musically speaking, about the performers' personal addictions or the private hells they may be experiencing.

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Pseudolus
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 12:00 PM

I think it all depends on what the individual wants to present publicly to an audience. to drink or not to drink (in terms of the performance) is not much different than to rehearse or not to rehearse, to buy a new instrument or not etc. etc. All of these things can affect how you come across to an audience. I believe that comfort plays as big a role as anything. The drinking issue is different because there is always potential for drink/drugs to affect your health and well being so we look at that issue differently. If someone drinks/drugs to the extent that it affects their performance or their attitude during a performance, than it shows both lack of judgement and lack of caring about the audience. These are the performers I would soon stop going to see once I realized what was going on.

Frank

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: cait
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 11:11 AM

I'm pretty new here, but will throw my thoughts in. The name of this thread is 'performer's EXCESS drinking', right? That says it all right there. I was offered a spot as singer in a group that a good friend was putting together, but I knew he was quite a drinker (and smoker, another can of worms), so I turned him down. He tried several times to get me to change my mind. I went to a couple of rehearsals which helped me to stay firm. When drinking, not only did his playing suffer, but his personality underwent a great change. He became overbearing and somewhat abusive. I don't know why the other players tolerated him, except that the bass player was in love with him (she is nursing a broken heart now). He played over my solos, and when I tried to sing backup for his songs, he would change the lyrics and timing, then accuse me of being too rigid. Anyway, it's not just the performance that's affected. I never joined that band and was treated to accounts of gigs that went well, but more that did not, all due to drinking. In other bands, there was a drunken drummer who would forget to come to rehearsals...and a lead guitarist who thought he needed to toke up for 'inspiration' (often backfired). Haven't you ever wanted to join a team that was fully functional to see where it could go? It has to beat making excuses for why it didn't work out... btw, I'm looking for a spot as a singer with celtic/blues/folk players in the lower Hudson Valley area of NY. heh... -caiti

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 11:00 AM

Think about what it's like to stand up in front of a room full of people, feeling that they're only there to "see the monkey dance" - for the millionth time. When the money's good, the monkey-boy will do whatever it takes to get through the dance one more time.

Alcoholism is a horrible, defeating thing. But, in my opinion, if "This world is a sh*thole" sums up your life view, alcoholism is not the real problem. My Polish family had quite a few elder males who were undoubtedly functioning alcoholics. They held down jobs, went to church on Sunday, didn't abuse their wives or children (that I know of, anyway) and died after enjoying a good long life.

People self-medicate for a lot of reasons - boredom and fear are just two that come to mind - and it's not always through booze or drugs, either. Sex, gambling, various adrenaline triggers, obsessions of all sort (religious zealotry, too, perhaps?) can start out as coping tools and become inescapable traps.

It's not an easy world; you learn as you go. If you had a good upbringing, and you're lucky, you avoid the traps and develop the life skills and playing skills (I believe it was Rick F. who used those terms in the John Fahey thread) that you need to be a well-rounded human being and a respected performer.

Bart

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: RichM
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 10:49 AM

If you find drinking helps pre-performance nervousness, see your doctor about using a beta blocker. These medications are commonly used by people with chronic high blood pressure - like me; but also is prescribed for professional musicians to prevent shaky hands during performance. It works!

Rich

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 10:28 AM

Camisu, I did recognise that everyone on Paltalk gets applause and they deserve it IMO.

As for my playing, it has deteriorated badly over the last 4-5 years due to lack of practice and enthusiasm but I have never played at my best after great quantites of alcohol and have found myself completely unable to play on several occasions.

The biggest problem I have playing in front of others (and even recording myself) is nerves though - the hardest parts being trying to stop my right hand from shaking like mad and I also have concentration problems when I am nervous. For those reasons, I can assure you that I play better in front of others after about 4 pints than I do sober - I still shake but not as badly and that has been the sort of level of alcohol I have aimed for when I have taken on paying work.

BTW, I should have said whith my 14 pints on Sunday that I had 2 drinking sessions with a few hours sleep in the middle - I probably drank about 8 over the PalTalk session.

Jon

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 09:57 AM

I don't mind watching someone who is a bit drunk performing, so long as it doesn't ruin the music too much. But where I personally draw the line is at paying to watch a self-destructive drunk perform. That makes me feel like I am encouraging them to ruin their life. I remember watching Johnny Thunders (ex-New York Dolls I think) many years ago - and when he started dribbling vomit as he sang I just felt guilty at colluding at his state. Really sad.
I've drunk an enormous amount over the years - and am still at the stage of regularly giving up (getting more & more sucessful at it now - esp since I've developed some nasty side effects when I do drink). I generally enjoy myself much better when I'm not drinking now. So whilst I wouldn't presume to tell anyone else not to drink - I would like to make the point that abstinence can make you a happier, healthier more confident person & can improve performance. Its always worth a try....
I think a lot depends on what kind of drinker you are - some people can manage moderation, some can't. Unfortunately I usually can't - so drinking & attempting to perform are a mistake for me & I expect that I'd become increasingly painful to watch/listen to.
Looking back at the original post it seems part of the problem was that they weren't 'with' the audience - perhaps they were using the drinking to seperate themselves from the audience (ie like a little club of their own)? - drinking can sometimes be used almost aggressively to reinforce a 'them & us' division.

Kris

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: CamiSu
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 09:50 AM

As a non drinker, I cannot speak to how people feel about their own performances, BUT I have witnessed some awful concerts when people were wasted, and which wasted my time and money. True,it's probably not easy to GET that way starting from cold sober, if you are playing all the time. But often people don't start out sober, and it goes downhill from there. I once had Norm Kennedy on my stage at a festival. He can be a wee bit difficult to understand at best, but when intoxicated it was IMPOSSIBLE. And when you're telling stories, there is not a back up band...

And Jon, while your performances on Paltalk have been excellent as far as I've heard, have you noticed that even people who need a bushel basket for their tunes still get applause? As near as I can see Paltalk is a group gathered in the living room for fun, encouragement, and enjoyment. I can't play any instrument as well as you can and will applaud, but I don't know your playing well enough to judge if you're at your best...

CamiSu

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: clansfolk
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 09:16 AM

There's a big difference between having a drink and being drunk - If the artists is under contract (verbal or written) and cannot complete his side of the contract because he is drunk - he will (or should) lose his fee. I often drink alcohol on stage but have never been drunk whilst performing (and very seldom when not!)It must be down to the individual and/or the social occasion, I'm sure if the artist's regular performance was disliked because of his drinking, bookings (unlike the artist) would dry-up. If the artist is enjoyed whether or not he drinks the drink is about as important as the colour of his underpants!!!! Lets also remember that most of the folk music came from social occasions and gatherings where alcohol was flowing like water.....

Pete (Clansfolk)

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: JennieG
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 05:51 AM

I attended a dance at a folk festival a few years ago...some of the band members were drinking on stage including the leader who was calling for the dances; he had a bottle of red wine that he kept swigging from. As the evening wore on he was becoming more confused about what he was supposed to be calling - he would call a dance movement then contradict himself. The dancers voted with their feet. Pity too, because I think (it was hard to tell!) they could have been a good band. It would have been more appropriate to have waited until they hit the session bar after the dance finished!

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: GUEST,Dita (at work)
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 02:29 AM

One well known Scottish trio had (presumably still has), a "no drink before the gig policy."
If a group member drank before a show, that nights fee was split between the other two.
"You want to drink and play - no pay".

I don't know about it making me play better, but a few drinks sure make the audience look better.
Good thread. I agree, it's horses for courses, no drink on a concert platform, pint going flat during set, in a club, rowdy pub gig - a few beers of six.
love, john

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 11:36 PM

Anybody ever hear of George Jones, Tammy Wynette, Merle Haggard, Johnny Cash, Hank Williams, or some of the folks of this era? Where I played getting drunk was self-defense! It's called an "Altered State of Learning." If you learn it impaired you can only do it impaired. After I stopped drinking and drugging to excess I had to learn to play and sing all over again. Can't say I'm any better now than then. One person's opinion. And opinions are like buttholes - everybody has one. Kind of a shame to remember great singer/musicians for one or two negative performances and not the hundreds of good things they did - most likely while impaired. That's my butthole's worth :-)

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: GUEST,Blind Desert Pete
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 03:09 PM

UB Dan seems to make the most sense. If ya cant tell it shouldnt bother anyone. Wasnt Franklin a big lush,Winston a bigger one and Adolph a teatotal vegetarion?

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Pseudolus
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 12:35 PM

I agree with Steve and UB. when is there time? For me, I'm a solo act, I am either talking or singing and short of having an IV, it's not likely that I'll get intoxicated. I suppose when it's a band and only one person is talking the rest of the band between songs and on breaks can pretty much tie one on and I've seen that. the closest I've ever come to overindulging (at a gig that is) was when I hosted an open mike night and I had all of that time while others were performing. After my third beer, I realized it was only 10:00 and usually I have my second beer while packing up at the end of the night. I slowed down, drank some water, adn relaxed. good thing, we ran out of singers around 11:30 and I had to get up and finish the night.

Frank

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 12:21 PM

I saw Joe Cocker in about '76 and he was legless. I actually felt pity for him. He couldn't do anything right, had no vocal range, no power in his voice. But he was pissed when he came on stage and continued to drink through the show.

Most of the live music I see now is in clubs and most of the performers have an ever present pint. I have heard some wonderful performances, but I think that a performer would have to literally swill beer or get on to the harder drinks to get intoxicated at a gig. Usually it's a five minute song, a quick sip, another five minute song etc. I really can't remember the last time I've seen a performer in a state that I would consider drinking to excess and ruining their performance.

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 12:00 PM

Humphrey Littleton says:

"Alcohol doesn't make you play any better but it makes everyone else sound better"

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: mkebenn
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 11:57 AM

Jon, Thy Beast is mine, at about the same distance, also, yet I see his eyes in the mist..Mike( humming last verse of Nancy Whiskey to himself)

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Gray Rooster
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 11:56 AM

If you go to bar with a band in Texas playing country or blues, more often than not, at least one of the members is drinking, on or off stage. What do you expect? Many are sponsored by beer companies, some overtly, some kinda behind the scenes (or they wish they were). Catch 22 number one.

In some respects, it is the bands job to promote the sales of alcohol in an establishment that sells it. Catch 22 number 2.

Are you in a concert situation? Catch 22 number 3.

Is the drinking part of the act?? Could be. I used to watch Frank Sinatra with a drink in one hand and a smoke in the other deliver a great show. Dean Martin used booze both while he was drinking and after he quit as a prop.

There have been many studies done on the effects of alcohol and mental abilities. Motor abilities are reduced after one drink and go down from there.

Audiences differ on the quality of music heard based on an old stage adage, delivered from the bands POV:

The drunker you get, the better we sound. **BG**

Performers differ according to this old adage:

Never be the only sober person in a drunk crowd or the only drunk person in a sober crowd. **BG**

I've had drinks or not depending on many factors. If there isn't a bar at the place I'm playing, I don't drink period. If there is a bar, I may or may not.

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: UB Ed
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 11:13 AM

Wow. Bonnie got one going here. Nice to see UB Dan weighing in; now if he can get over this cookie business, maybe he'll join the Cat.

Several themes run through this discussion: 1. If music is your job, you shouldn't get wasted while you're working (Makes sense for all the other jobs too). 2. If you're getting wasted on the job, you're letting other people carry you and that's not fair to your coworkers (band) or customers (audience). 3. Any addiction is a terrible thing.

That being said, it also seems a number of folks are carrying their preconceived notions regarding acceptable levels of behavior, and, I'm getting the sense that notions outside their own are NOT acceptable. I can certaintly understand the loathing to work with a drunk (incompetent). However, having a couple of drinks with the audience (and participatory toasts) doesn't seem incredibly wrong to me. I would hate to be JUDGED as inconsiderate, incompetent or in any other way because of that. I don't believe we should be so quick to judge a group that "seems to have a good buzz." Could it be part of the routine? Am I a pedophile becuase I sing "As I Roved Out?" I think not.

For us, we respond according to our crowd. If they're drinking, we'll have our own; otherwise not.

Another aspect to consider during performance is when do you have time to drink? After we kick into the first set, many is the time I don't get back to my pint until Finnegan's wake at the end. There's just no time.

If you drink, drink to moderation, keep your wits about you and (Dan) your guitar tuned (You should check out that b string thread). Be not quick to judge.

Peace.

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 09:32 AM

I should have added this to the above. People may have noticed that I recently moved from North Wales to Norfolk, England. The main reason for that was because of my drinking - I have family here and less stress to cope with which is helping.

Jon

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 09:20 AM

Have a Guiness on me Dan!

I am also amazed at some of the conceptions people seem to have concerning alcoholism - it does not always work the way people think. I have the problem and am currently trying to tackle it - you know what, I have had more temper tantrums since cutting right down than I had when I was drinking like mad - I think some of my over-reactions to PalTalk rows bear witness to some of that...

Sticking with Paltalk, I have never been on it live without a couple of pints before hand yet I seem to have a reputation of being a good admin who handles problems well when we have the occasional spot of trouble there.

I let myself go and had about 14 pints on Sunday in PalTalk and played mostly jigs and reels, I know people are polite anyway but I got lots of "WOWS" and I think that I was on better form (although still not as good as I can be) than I have been in ages. I can't help onder how the same music would have been responded to if people had seen me drinking like a fish.

Please don't get me wrong, alcoholism is not nice and it is no fun watching your health suffer and being dependent on drink to face things - I just get pissed off when people make assumptions about what alcoholics are like.

Jon

PS. At the moment, I am in church counselling and most of the time, I am doing pretty well for me - 2 or 3 cans per night and nothing during the day. Maybe I'm going to have to take more drastic action but for now, I will stick with that.

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 08:52 AM

Ebbie, alcoholism is indeed a pitiful thing...any addiction is pitiful and it is sad to see someone try to escape reality in anyway...

But the use of alcohol is not by definition an abuse of alcohol.

I am surprised that the overwehlming consensus is that one drink is the start of a steep decline to an alcohol induced coma on stage.

The band I play with does get paid to play, we play regularly and we have drinks when we play. Maybe the difference is that we play in a pub...but generally, the people who enjoy us enjoy the craic as much as the music...We make jokes, we interrupt songs, we talk alot...and it has never been a distraction, it has only added to the show.

Perhaps I have a very basic different idea of what a show should be...I loved seeing Kiss in concert, I loved seeing Shane McGowan, I loved seeing U2, I loved seeing InOBU and his group as well and on and on...I'm not saying they all drank alot but they all gave me something live that I can't get on a record.

I'm not condoning shoddy playing, but if the performer wants to play a song differently or mix it up some, it shows that he is not lipsynching or sleepwalking. Why do we have to treat perfomances and jam sessions as totally different entities. Play. Laugh. Love. Hate. Live a whole life in the course of one song and worry left about whether the 2nd note in the 11th stanza was perfect pitch or well-tempered...and order me a Guiness while you're at it

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 12:39 AM

Townes Van Zandt comes to mind. He drank before, during and after his concert here and his face was pasty, his body language defeated. That's what I remember of that night, not his music.

Alcoholism is a pitiful thing. And we imprison potheads.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: GUEST,Sarah2 (at work in the dead of night, woe is
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 11:55 PM

Sorry, Naemanson, I should have said if more of their friends would "give up on them" -- I didn't mean to suggest that you should abandon your mother. Of course, the manipulation of family members by alcoholics is another story completely...been there, too. But I meant to be talking about musicians, mostly. I do get vague sometimes.

Sarah

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: John J at home
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 05:56 PM

Kim C: Organic Lemon Cordial is exactly what it says. You can buy it from Tesco's or Sainsbury's, it's made by 'Rock's' and is brilliantly refreshing and tasty....a zillion times better than the rubbish drunk by, say, tennis players. If you catch my drift. Sure, it's more expensive, but there's no funny chemicals in it either. I hope you manage to try some. BTW I don't work for, or have any interest in, Tesco's / Sainsbury's / Rock's. I just like the product. John J

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 05:41 PM

The fact of the matter is there ARE a (very) few performers who can still perform brilliantly even when they are totslly rat-arsed. As long as they entertain and don't embarrass , good luck to them. For everybody else, one drink beforehand is one drink too many IMHO.

Murray

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: kimmers
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 05:28 PM

In college, I used to get together and play a bit of music with friends, quite informally. I was briefly member of a group that got a couple of paying gigs. I also used to play at various stuffy University receptions with a friend who played the flute. We did an eclectic mixture of classical, modern folk, and a few odd bits.

At one of these receptions I decided to help myself to a small glass of wine (maybe all of four ounces) during a break. We weren't doing vocals, just the instruments, so there were no voice effects to think about. We had been told by the prof who was hosting the reception to help ourselves, and I was of legal drinking age. I intended to sip that one small glass and make it last.

My flute player was furious at me for doing this, and made no secret of the fact that she thought it was totally inappropriate. Looking back, I think she just saw it as the first step on a slippery slope; maybe she had been publicly embarrassed by someone who drank excessively. To me, that small amount wasn't an issue.

I got even with her by launching into "Mexican Hat Dance" and making her play along... which made her even madder.

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 05:13 PM

Then there's all our lovely enabling and outrageous drinking songs, which most of my group sings cold sober. I'm not sure what to do with these songs. I love to sing them and will continue to do so but the usual message is terrible, and yet I'm not sure what kind of disclaimer would be effective even if desirable. A case in point (no pun intended) is how many temperance songs became robust drinking songs.

I certainly agree that most performers do not enhance their performance or their personalities by drinking. But then there are people such as Stan Hugill who I cannot conceive of singing without his rum bottle (was it filled with tea?). How Stan managed to survive as long as he did was a major miracle. But many other musicians, and aspiring musicians, have ruined themselves and put their close friends through hell in the process.

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 05:07 PM

I don't see anyone here saying that the Booze Police ought to be called in to control performers... I see people saying the truth of what they know from their own experience with The Beast. The Beast is the dysfunctionality and pseudo-reality that goes with abused substances.

Bonnie's opening post was general enough to have allowed people to say what they thought needed to be said on this subject. I don't see that anyone's post has been inappropriate to her opening thoughts. In fact this has had, I think, ZERO thread creep. It's been a fine discussion with good attention to the topic itself.

~S~

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 05:03 PM

Jeri, this is how I work: the only paid performance I walked out of may or may not have involved drink (there was no drinking on stage). It was a Fureys concert and I believe the last venue before they returned to Ireland. Quite frankly, they were awful and to piss me of further, 1/2 the audicence seemed to be encouraging them to play even more quickly and wildly. When it reached the point that I realised that the reason I hadn't recognised the LARK IN THE MORNING was that they were playing badly, I went.

You tell me, was it drink or not? My guess is that it was.

Jon

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 05:03 PM

On the subject of when is somebody drunk.

Little town in Texas. A local feller is settin' there, whittlin', and looks out, sees the sheriff come up to a man lying prostrate in the middle of the street and start to drag him away.

"Whatcha doin', shuruff?"

"I'm taking Ole Joe in for drunk!"

"Hell, shuruff, he ain't drunk! I jest seen his fingers move!"

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 04:53 PM

I was only half right, Bonnie. ;-) You know what strikes me is the different definitions we all have. I would have said those folks were drunk, but Bonnie says they weren't. Same thing goes for ability to not be bothered by drinking. Me, I'm a lot less of a prude than I sound, but it does bother me if I can't ignore it. Other people probably can't stand it if they're aware of ANY drinking, and others would probably have a good time even if the folks on the stage couldn't find which end of their guitars had the strings on. Who knows what the average opinion is, or if there is one...

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 04:35 PM

Oooh! What's an Organic Lemon Cordial? That sounds tasty.

For me, ONE DRINK pre-performance is enough. That's it. I may not even have that. Depends on where we are.

Afterward, well, that's another story.

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 04:18 PM

Jeri is correct, they drank a bundle, had quite a buzz but they were not drunk.

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 04:18 PM

I can't stand whatching someone making a complete ass of themselves either Jeri, but as Bonnie has just clarified, it does appear that a number of people read more in to Bonnie's words than she had said and that UB Dan (got it right) was pulled up for responding correctly.

As for the welfare, sure drinking to excess does no-one any good and I know that as well as anyone. Having said that, as long as I feel I am entertained, they have done thier job and I do not feel a responsibility for the performer's welfare.

Jon

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 04:06 PM

IMO, Bonnie said they were drunk: "Recently I attended an evening of music where I watched the performers drink a bundle. You could see they had quite a 'buzz going'." (The bolds are mine.)

In any case, what she was saying was that it interfered with her enjoyment. It's not about how much, if any, drinking is OK. It's about whether it bothers us to watch it.

Personally, I don't mind if someone is a little buzzed. Unfortunately, if someone's up on a stage and is drunk, my first reaction is embarrassment. I can't get that feeling of "oh shit - he's making a compete ass of himself" out of my head.

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 03:57 PM

Jon is right about my initial posting. The musicians I was referring to had 'a buzz on' but they were not drunk. Someone menitoned above in an earlier posting about it being a concern for their health and wellbeing. This is true. It bothered me to see people drink so much while on the job. It wasn't just the buzz I noticed, it was the volume of beer they were drinking.
I felt badly for them and I felt that they were not engaged with the audience because of the alcohol. Maybe they are the type who never engaged with the audience even if they were not drinking in excess. I don't know. But I do know they were not drunk and from what I could see the booze did not affect their performance. But it bothered me.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Big Phil
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 03:55 PM

b

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 03:30 PM

As Jon Freeman points out...I was under the impression that the thread was referring to anyone drinking anything at any time...Which brings us to the question

Is 1 drink 2 many...is 2...or is it just anyone who drinks more than you...(like the saying that anyone who drives slower than you is an idiot and anyone who drives faster is insane) or are we talking about a certain amount of impairment or some generally lifestyle of abuse whether playing or not? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm interested in what you all think.

(Jon, I am UB Dan, though I know UB Ed...And I know he has a few drinks when he plays also...he tuned me into this whole mudcat thing but i'm still 'guesting')

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 03:18 PM

Naemanson, UB Ed appears to me to be reffering back to the original post. I have read nothing in Bonnies post to suggest that indicates what sort of state the performers in question were in - all I know is that Bonnie sensed "a bit of a buzz" which could have been simply down to here seing them drinking and she doesn't seem to be sure whether it effected their performance - in fact, it appears that it didn't mucically to any discernable degree.

As for comments on nerves, it is a fact that some people suffer from them and they will play better using some drug when uner pressure. Although I am in trouble with alcohol, I would sooner a glass or two of beer than some of the alternatives such as beta blockers.

Jon

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 02:26 PM

I left out one more point, in my post above. Performing on -stage is always a bit of a crap shoot. Things go wrong. Some gigs are pretty predicatable but most have some unknowns over which you have no control. Drinking anything reduces your ability to cope with those kind of problems. I have seen a lot of musicians bithc bitterly about these things, call the club owner or stage manager an idiot - and sometimes they have a beef, but a lot of times, it's just the nature of the perfomance world. Equipment breaks, acts ahead of you go long, or play material you had planned to play, strings breaks, batteries run out ... any of these little issues can really throw a curve ball to a performer who is already partying.

If you really wan to be a good performer, save the partying for those most appropriate moments - to me that means almost always off-stage.

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 02:19 PM

This is an interesting topic. I don't drink at all anymore because of medical condition, but even when I did I learned early on that drinking was for after the performance. The simple truth is, excessive drinking stunts your growth. If you just wanna please the crowd in a rowdy bar or festival; then dinking may not hurt you. If you want to be the best you can be, as a performer, any amount of drink will diminish your abilty.

The truth is, at those shows where your music is all about party and fun, and the crowd is drinking heavily (eg. Saint Paddy's day), you can still have just as much fun performing without drinking. I ahev stayed up all night, jamming with musician freinds, many of whom are drinking to excess - and had every bit as much fun as anyone, and I was not hung over in the mornin'!

One more thing ... I am certain that every msucian friend that I've had who used that tired excuse, "I play best when I'm stoned or drunk " is a liar. That lame excuse is commonly used, but, I suspect, never true. I love the Bonny Rait quote - when she went to Stevie Ray Vauhn perform for the first time since he got sober, she said she wondered if he'd play with the same intensity, and she said she was floored ... because his show was so awesome, "he burned a hole in the sun." It inspired her to get sober as well. Great story, and to the point.

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 02:17 PM

Sarah2 wrote: '...some alcoholics might just be better at facing it if more people would "give up on them" and tell them, "I really care about you, but I'm not trained to handle this. So call me again when you're ready to face life and get off the booze."'

I've tried that with my mother and it doesn't work. The withdrawal becomes another undeserved attack. Denial should be listed as one of the greatest powers on Earth.

UB Dan, you are doing nothing that this thread is pointing to. From your description you are not getting falling down drunk. You are having a few while in the pub. We do something similar at the Press Room in Portsmouth. But we aren't being paid to entertain. We are there for a beer "...and, oh by the way, here is a song..." If someone was paying me to entertain then I would have to agree with Wes who says the performer should look on it as his job and stay sober. There is little entertainment value in watching someone get drunk. You can do that in any bar, any night of the week.

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: John J
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 02:11 PM

A few years ago while playing at a ceilidh (I'd had 2 - 3 pints of quaffing ale, ie. not strong) I turned to one of the band members ( a friend whose opinion I value)and commented how well we we playing that night. His reponse was that we (I) sounded bloody awfull. I was convinced I / we sounded brilliant. I haven't drunk beer at a ceilidh since. I now drink a rather nice Organic Lemon Cordial, and save the beer for playing / singing in sessions. A paying audience deserves the best you can give. Even a pint effects my playing. I always think the playing improves, true friends will tell you the truth. Don't get the idea I'm anti-drink, I enjoy a skinfull of decent beer as much, if not more, than anyone. I get my buzz out of playing well, then having a few pints later....provided I get a lift home! John

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 02:02 PM

Look, alcohol abuse is a serious problem whether or not you are playing music. I know it is sad to see someone you know ambrace a self destructive lifestyle.

That said, I think this thread is getting a little to strict. I play with a band, we play in a pub and we enjoy some stout and whiskey while we do so. Granted we are much more of a hobby band (we all have day jobs and do the music as a side). The pub is fun, the music is fun, and the Guiness is good. Granted I don't believe we will be remembered years from now for our music, but neither will we be known for our drinking...too many people have done both with greater intensity.

Music is a way of celebrating, it is a wonderful cathartic release. It's the fruit of the soul... I don't want to fall down drunk and miss the experience, but neither do I want the audience and the band to act like we are attending a funeral.

p.s. I saw Shane McGowan a couple of times...he was drunk...the show was brilliant

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 01:53 PM

I would like to think that a musician would consider themselves "working" and "on the job" when they are performing in front of an audience and respect that audience { and themselves } enough to stay sober and give their best performance. Anyone who says they play better when blasted is fooling themselves. They need to sit down and listen to some tapes of performances both "off" and "on" in order to hear the difference. Booze does work for a while to loosen up a performer and to get them to relax but once the abuse starts it tends to have the exact opposite effect that the performer wanted in the first place. If you want to fit in you will eventually isolate yourself. If you want to be creative you will eventually find yourself in a rut, and so on. All of this is my own opinion but it comes from many years of experiece.

If any of you drink to excess { or think that you do } please feel free to PM me so we can talk about it. Thanks - Wesley S.

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 01:17 PM

If we're just hanging out in the backyard, well, that's one thing. I am my father's child and in spite of my littleness I can put away quite a bit. HOWEVER, if I have too much I fall asleep and that's hardly conducive to making music. I can drink and sing at the same time, but I simply cannot drink and play an instrument. My fingers get all wonky. And like I said, if it's just some pards getting together for a good time, no problem. But if we're talking about a real live performance where people expect something good, a little nip is all I'll have, if even that. We always have water handy, though.

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Sarah2
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 12:42 AM

Too true, Naemanson. For those last few years of my duet partnership, I tried almost everything prescribed to bring home to my partner that he had a problem. Nobody was better at denying it, to himself and everyone else. He could handle it. He could quit any time. He just wanted to have a good time (this one usually turned into an attack of some kind on whoever was trying to get him to slow it down). It got so very wearing...

If I'd quit him long before, he might still be getting sloshed, but I wouldn't be carrying around the feeling that I was somehow an enabler. Hindsight, though, tells me that at least some alcoholics might just be better at facing it if more people would "give up on them" and tell them, "I really care about you, but I'm not trained to handle this. So call me again when you're ready to face life and get off the booze." There's a point when being nice is just feeding the disease.

Sarah

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: menzze
Date: 11 Mar 01 - 07:47 PM

As I told you on the Fantasy Wanted!!!Thread I had a band called Oaktree for 15 years. We used to drink a lot during the gigs and there are quite a bunch of moments I'm really not proud of.

I even had a couple of shows I can't recall the last hour of but the audience loved it and as I was told later I did it in a perfect way.But I can't remember a fucking thing which made me mad about myself.

It took us some years to overcome this behaviour(our average age was 23-26 at the time)and a remarkable thing for us was to experience the fact you can play more intensive and closer together when you're sober. A beer or two might be alright before and after the show but if you do it pissed I know by now you loose the ability to really get a connection or feeling to the guys you play with.

I'm not against alc, I love a good glass of Irish whisky or dry red wine and I confess there are a fistful of events per year I'm drunk too(coz it don't takes much to get me there)but I don't like it on stage no more.

A month ago I've seen the Oysterband in Stuttgart with the singer coming on stage like a zombie. You could clearly see that he was pretty pissed. He had another 3 or 4 beers during the show with one of the roadies taking care only for his supply. The music was fine, he sang without any mistakes but the picture he gave to the crowd destroyed at least half of the pleasure they brought to us with their music.

To my opinion too much of anything can be no good.

menzze

Subject: RE: Performers Excess Drinking at Their Gig
From: Naemanson
Date: 11 Mar 01 - 07:29 PM

Actually, Susan, I don't think this thread will be a wake up call for anyone. People do not recognize what they are doing to themselves. My mother is a diabetic and an alcoholic. She is the only person who can not see that she is drinking too much. My father, who is usually pretty disengaged, even made a point of going in to talk to the doctor about her problem. It will kill her but there is nothing anyone can do about it.

I expect the band members mentioned above are doing the same thing.