BS: Death Penalty?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 12:57 PM

"And I thought all mudcatters were peace loving tree huggers..."

Why would you think all of ANY group can be easily pigeonholed?
Even in the UK, I'm sure you can find those who would gladly support the death penalty!

I'm sorry, but it is not a simple thing to decide in advance how to deal with those who commit the worst crimes.

Remember...even when you suspect that there may be innocent people, wrongly convicted in prisons, there are FAR more truly guilty, who cost the state a LOT of money to keep, and who are a serious danger to the guards who watch them and to other prisoners.

When you are pontificating about the evils of the death penalty, ask yourself how best to deal with the ever expanding prison populations. *IF* you commit to a non-negotiable policy of NO death penalty, you'd best brace yourself for many, many complex problems in dealing with the worst parts of humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,Person who the moderators do not like
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 12:02 PM

Hey, just because this website is run from The States, does not mean we have to sink to their levels.

Death sentence is a sign of either society giving up, or hasn't reached the stage of civilisation yet to be responsible to care for its society.

Being British, I can at least hold my head high in this regard. Ex capital crimes did not shoot up after the abolition and as time goes by, there are more posthumous pardons than anybody could be comfortable with. (Not to mention people free now, and yet would have been hung 50 years ago.

Perhaps less advanced countries like Iran, China, USA and Singapore will develop and raise their general levels of education enough so that such Populist disgraceful state murders will not be needed to keep people happy?

And I thought all mudcatters were peace loving tree huggers. Shows what I know!

S.W.H.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,jim
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:05 AM

Where the act is caught on tape-video, etc. & there is no doubt, the penalty should be handed down quickly within 72 hours. To allow this to go on and on is like spitting in the face of the family members of the victim.
If that makes me a killer, I can live with that.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,dinnerlady
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:53 PM

Along with Stefan Kizko,and Timothy Evans we mustn't forget Ruth Ellis who shot her lover under conditions which would now be called diminished responsibility.Also Derek Bentley. Derek was 19 years old with a mental age of 11 when he was hanged for the murder of a policeman. Only he didn't murder the cop...it was his accomplice in the foiled break-in attempt that did it....Bentley was actually in custody by another policeman when Chris Craig shot the policeman....but because Derek allegedly shouted'Let him have it Chris' Bently was deemed equally responsible for the crime....Craig was 17 years old and therefore too young for the death penalty...not so the unfortunate Bentley. His words 'Let him have it Chris' could well have meant for Chris to give up the gun rather than shoot the cop. Craig is alive and well to this day.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:39 PM

Wow, good thoughts well said.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:58 PM

To take the life of another is a crime against God and man.
To put a person to death for that crime lowers us to his/her level. What is the difference between us?
It is proven that life in prison is cheaper than the death sentence, Clinton. With endless appeals that WE pay for, this animal can go on living for 15, 20 or more years.
If you execute him/her, you are not punishing him/her, hell no, you are RELEASING them!
The most valuable thing to a human is not life, it's freedom.
I'm against the death penalty, it's not justice, it's revenge, and we should rise above that.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,earthling
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 09:17 PM

In 1976 Stefan Kiszko was wrongfully convicted of child's murder.He spent 16 years imprisoned. He died a year after his eventual release.
He had a chromosonal abnormality, that manifested itself both physically and mentally.

At the time of his conviction he fitted many peoples stereotypical picture of a "child killer".Had we the death penalty at our disposal I have no doubt he too would have been murdered. And there would probably have been a queue of people, all baying for his blood and only too willing to perform the deed.

I wonder what the effect would have been on them, knowing they had killed an innocent and very vulnerable man?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 05:29 AM

Interesting thread.

I can see both sides of the argument here but must admit that for some crimes, particularly those involving children, I would tend toward the death penalty - not as a deterrent as I feel that the people who commit those crimes will do it regardless of the consequences - but to protect the rest of society from further abuses. Unfortunately in the UK the idea of a 'life sentence' does not mean staying in prison until death these days.

While I am aware that people can change I feel that someone guilty of murder, if they changed and repented of their crime, should then agree that such a crime deserves that they forfeit their freedom for the rest of their life. Otherwise, are they truly repentant?

Re the cost of incarceration - why not make them work for anything above the basic needs of life? The media may be exaggerating the conditions in prisons but it does seem that things are relatively easy in UK prisons for some of the 'celebrity' clients. When they have the opportunity for study that many law-abiding citizens are denied due to lack of time or finance there does seem to be something wrong with the system.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 02:03 PM

People who support the death penalty do not envision themselves as the accidental guest of honour.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 06:41 PM

Killing is final. No possibility for changing and growing away from being the person who did then killing, and no chance for the truth to emerge, in the cases where an innocent perosn has been wrongly convicyed.

As for the pretty unique American system where after the person has served something like a life sentence, and perhaps has changed into someone far different from the person who did the killing, and has learnt to repent - and they take them out and ritually kill them...

Something that always puzzles me. In the USA, you've got this bit in your constitution about "cruel and unusual punishment" - and it seems to me you must have an extraordinary way of defining "cruel and unusual", for that kind of thing to be legal. Even leaving "cruel" on one side, that whole procedure is hardly "usual", outside the USA, which is just one country in a big world.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 05:35 PM

A few yrs back John Nolan a former Mudcatter was reporting on a story about a guy sitting on death row waiting to die, for a good number of yrs. John before moving stateside was a cop in Scotland. Because of his background in law enforcement he quickly became aware that not all was right in this case & as a reporter he started investigating. It became quickly & very apparent that an innocent had been wrongfully been sentenced to death. He was released & cleared. If John had not been reporting on the case it wouldn't have been a case of "one to many" it would've been a case of one more of the many who died as an innocent victim & now you're left with 2 or more victims needlessly 'DEAD'. With the new use of DNA we're finding that the percentage of innocent people sitting on death row are the poor & are minorities is high, more than 'one to many'. Some even had the system used against them during the trial process because someone has to pay, the pressure to fill the guilty gap is being applied, the pressure of a thirsty public cries out for blood, the manipulation of evidence so the wrong person was convicted by overzealous law enforcement officers or their agencies. We have a badly flawed process when it comes to handing out death sentences & yes, if one person is put to death wrongfully that's enough to abandon the whole system. If keeping the process we have to forfeit an innocent every so often let it start with forfeiting those in favor of the process or let it be their child. When it's you or a loved one who's the convicted innocent sitting & waiting to die then say you're in favor of the death penalty I'm pretty sure you'd have a change of heart. Not many will fight for the life of a poor soul waiting to be executed & no one will fight for you or yours either unless you can afford to buy yourself a top notch high priced attorney who'll be able to buy back your life. So it sometimes comes down to, if you're innocent, weither or not you've got enough money to prove how valuable you are.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 07:36 AM

In alanabit's post of 16 Mar 04 - 03:35 PM, he says:

"A murderer who leaves so much evidence around that his conviction cannot be in any doubt is in fact a bloody fool. However, a truly devious, calculating murderer sets out to leave very little evidence indeed."

It can go a bit further than that, as in the case of Timothy Evans (who was not the brightest of people). The real murderer was Christie, who ensured that there was enough evidence left around to implicate Evans. Under any justice system based on jury trial whoever is sat in the dock is judged by the weight of evidence brought against them. Mistakes and miscarriages of justice are inevitable, I prefer a system where such mistakes can be rectified.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 08:48 AM

McGrath - I don't think I implied that I think people are incapable of change. One of the great things about people is that they're always capable of change.
Which is an argument that I didn't include in my previous post, but due to lack of time can't really adress now. Basically: Murderers are mot always intrinsically evil people. Those who kill in the heat of the moment tend to feel remorse afterward. In that case, applying the death penalty is just revenge rather than a punishment.

In the case that was linked to above, of the serial killer, I don't think he could change. Therefore he should be kept away from society, but I still don't think that justifies killing him.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: el ted
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 06:54 AM

Hang them. There, that was short and to the point nes pas?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 05:51 AM

I'm arriving late on this thread, and havent followed the arguments. So I'll just say, I am 100% opposed to the death penalty.
And seeing this thread reminded me of an anti-capital punsihment theatrical show with folk songs, see my thread "Hang down your head and die"

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Ben Dover
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 04:29 AM

I reiterate,shoot the buggers! Stop being so wet and liberal. The modern world is full of criminals who are runnung wild. Let's have a bit of a cull!

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 07:42 PM

So you don't believe that people can change, Shlio?

That really does seem to have some strange implications. For example, does that mean noone can ever get worse than they were to start with? If someone does something bad, that means they were fundamentally bad all along?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 06:40 PM

I'm not necessarily demanding that a parallel be drawn -- just considered.

When a sense of justice is not meted, an abused child OFTEN ends up taking the blame upon themselves, and antisocial activity ensues.

No justice -- no peace

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 05:57 PM

Wolfgang, I agree that "one's too many" has been used too often - but look at the situations you are applying it to -

"A kid has been mauled by a dog, one's too many. A woman has been raped by a former rapist out of jail, one's too many. An oil tanker spoils a coast, one's too many."

Dogs can be trained better, the rapist can be put into prison, the oil tankers can be redesigned. But with a human being, you can't say "ooops, better bring that one back to life".

I'm against the death penalty, not necessarily because of the criminal, but because of the victims. If someone you love has been killed, killing the killer won't bring them back. The killer needs to be punished, and kept away from society for a while, but killing them in return isn't right. The death penalty is just getting revenge, which I don't think is fair. (Quite apart from what it does to the judge, jury and executioner).
Crowds shout for the death of murderers, but if you give most of them a hatchet (or the switch for the electric chair), they will back away from killing them themselves. They just want it tidied away,quietly, with no mess, by other people. I think that's unfair too. (Would Ben Dover be willing to "shoot the buggers" himself, or does he just want them shot?)

I doubt I've managed to get my point across coherently, but I hope most of you understand.
Perhaps it could be summed up like this: If the whole world lived by "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth...", we would all be blind and eating porridge. Blind revenge doesn't work.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 04:12 PM

"The thing is, people can change."

So, then, you don't believe in life imprisonment either? If your notions of crime and punishment are based on the fact that a person can change, then either you don't punish, or you live with the fact that you now have a gaggle of "changed" men unfairly and unnecessarily in prison.

And if they're reformed and you let them out -- who gets to decide who're reformed. And who pays the pentalty for any resultant recitivism?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 12:57 PM

"Shoot the buggers! "

I know the intelligence services have made some bad calls, but that seems a bit rough on them.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Ben Dover
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 10:20 AM

Shoot the buggers!

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 10:17 AM

'One's too many'.

I have thought it over after alanabit's post and I still hold to my opinion.

Maybe I have read or heard it too often in too many contexts. A kid has been mauled by a dog, one's too many. A woman has been raped by a former rapist out of jail, one's too many. An oil tanker spoils a coast, one's too many.

There are no error free decisions (unless trivial ones). All decision criteria only influence the trade-off between two errors. For each of the above mentioned guilty beyond every doubt cases I could post here an extremely unlikely but not completely impossible scenario that this person could be not guilty.

Therefore, for any person accepting death penalty, the error possibility argument can be no convincing argument. But I see this argument here in different forms directed to them (supporters of death penalty), and in that form it makes no sense for me. However, if that argument is directed not to others but as an explanation why the poster herself is against death penalty, it makes sense. (Gareth has made a very interesting variant of of that argument)

BTW, the 'for life' penalty for 'simple' murder in Germany (unlikely to do it again, no aggravating circumstances) usually means 15 years (most of the RAF terrorists serving for murder are out by now). So from a German point of view, the American system with the very long-time death rows means they first get a penalty for life and after they have served the time they get the death penalty.

Wolfgang

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 06:26 AM

Remember jOhn, (nameless) GUESTs are legion. Never assume one is the same as the next. Bloody confusing, intentionally no doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 04:17 AM

bit confused about the last few posts, is GUEST talking to himself?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 10:14 PM

Well in your own words "if you ain't one you shouldn't be speakin' for 'em."

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 08:52 PM

"So do we take it that you have been wrongfully imprisoned for a crime you did not commit? Because YOU have chosen to speak on behalf of them."
No, I haven't.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 08:07 PM

Sorry McG....above was directed to JH.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 08:06 PM

So do we take it that you have been wrongfully imprisoned for a crime you did not commit? Because YOU have chosen to speak on behalf of them.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 08:06 PM

It would be quite fair to point out that people were being untrue to the basic beliefs of their religion, even when if wasn't my own religion - I don't have to be a Muslim to know that stuff like September 11 and March 11 are way out of line with Islamic doctrines and traditions.

And I don't have to be a Christian to believe the same about the kind of killing that gets referred to as "the Death Penalty". (Though, being a practicing Catholic, I am one, as it happens.)

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:45 PM

only that if you ain't one you shouldn't be speakin' for 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:42 PM

You got something against Christians, JH?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:41 PM

Evidence has recently surfaced that there may have been more conspirators in the Oklahoma City bombing for which Timothy McVey was executed. The only person who would know with certainty is dead. He can never be asked.

There have been numerous cases of multiple muderers, Ted Bundy for example, being executed with questions about how many crimes they actually may have been responsible for still unanswered. Unidentified bodies that turn up years later could possibly be tied to convicted muderers, but nobody's ever going to know for certain if said murderer has been executed.

Execution is final. Any questions that didn't get answered before the sentence is imposed may as well just go unasked.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:28 PM

JH, excuse me-- are you reading a post and then posting a reply, before reading the next posts? If so, this is not the best way to contribute in a forum like this one-- it's best to group your replies to a number of posts, all in one reply. Just indicate with each paragraph who you are addressing, and what comment they made that you are responding to.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:11 PM

McGrath,
You a Christian?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:09 PM

The innocents who have been released from prison have been so because of tireless campaigning/new evidence/proof that the original evidence was tampered with/a retrial/an appeal....how indepth would an investigation be on a dead man?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:06 PM

The thing is, people can change. Believing that to be true is a pretty basic core belief for most Christians - not just them of course, but I pick them out because it's one of the reasons why there seems, to many people, something totally inconsistent and almost blasphemous about Christians favouring ths kind of killing.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:59 PM

"The innocent people who have been released may differ with your opinion."

Sure, but they'd be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:57 PM

"Any comparison is irrelevant. If we make a life sentence exactly that, a life sentence behind bars, then they won't reoffend and the innocent man won't be executed."

Even if I granted that solution for recitivism (I don't. Too many life sentences are commuted), By your (the anti-capital punishmnet side's) reconning, the imperfect judicial sustem is inflicting lifetimie torture upon an innocent man. (remember? he's innocent -- that's why we connot put him to death)

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:54 PM

Time served as irreversable as death? The innocent people who have been released may differ with your opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:52 PM

"JH.........of course crimes can be punishable, but we have to be able to rectify our mistakes if we are saying that the system isn't infallible."

Time served is just as irreversable as death.

If our whole justice system was based on its potential for failure we would not sentence anyone to any punishment.

If the punishment fits the crime then we are equally morally wrong in wrist slapping as we are in capital punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:51 PM

Any comparison is irrelevant. If we make a life sentence exactly that, a life sentence behind bars, then they won't reoffend and the innocent man won't be executed.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:48 PM

Given that the number of times a killer gets out and strikes again...

how can one draw the conclusion that there is NO deterent effect from capital punishment?

And how does that (ignored) number compare to the number of innocents ever put to death wrongly?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:46 PM

JH.........of course crimes can be punishable, but we have to be able to rectify our mistakes if we are saying that the system isn't infallible.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:45 PM

Why MUST one conclude no ability to distinguish between killing an guilty life via due process and killing an innocent life?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:44 PM

If a psychchiatric report states that the murderer is insane would you traet them differently?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:43 PM

If the arguement is that all killing is killing, the best discussion has been framed already. We believe in many things that the government can do that the individual cannot.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:40 PM

^that was also me. JH

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:40 PM

If we argue that imprisonment is a superiorly harsh punishment (as Frankham framed earlier) then the only humanitarian choice is death (the less cruel and unusual of the two).

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:37 PM

If we must argue that it is wrong because of the falability of the justice system, then we must conclude that we cannot punish ANY crime.