In Search of Nic Jones CD

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 04:28 PM

Hi Mr/s Savvi.
Fair point well made.
But I think the sale of one CD (Profit to CM of about 2 pounds 50) pales into unsignicance with the joy I had in destroying it! (The look on the poor guys face was a wonder!!)
Also, I have never seen any NJ product (other than the legal ones) in a Virgin/Zavvi shop since.
A small victory maybe, but poor people have to take the crumbs that come their way.
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,zavvisavvy
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 02:03 PM

"I found one in Virgin records a couple of years ago, and having purchased it, snapped it in two in the shop.
Petulant, and childish I know, but it made a point".

If the CD had been left in the rack Virgin would have eventually moved it to the sale bin and not reordered. What you did instead triggered an automatic order to Celtic Music for replacement stock the reverse of what you intended.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 05:26 PM

"Assets (plus associated rights) of th insolvent Leader Sound passed through at least two ownerships before Celtic Music acquired thm."

Diane, do you, by any chance, have names etc..?


"Question: Are such rights, once created, transferable? One of the bankruptcy acts of early last century would suggest not, though this has not yet been tested on music copyright."

more and more interesting....

Charlotte (the Sunday view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 05:16 PM

out of copyright dates are subject to where in the world you may live

[Opening a can of worms]:

Under UK law, copyright protection in sound recordings exists for 50 years from the end of the calendar year in which it was made or released. The author of a copyright work is generally the person who creates it. In relation to sound recordings, this is the producer.

(Source: PRS/MCPS)

Question: Are such rights, once created, transferable? One of the bankruptcy acts of early last century would suggest not, though this has not yet been tested on music copyright.

(Source: Richard Bridge of this parish)

Assets (plus associated rights) of th insolvent Leader Sound passed through at least two ownerships before Celtic Music acquired thm.

D. Bulmer (calculating rapidly in head) must be in his late 50s.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 04:40 PM

Wow...2030 Eh?
Can't wait.
I'll be in my 70's Nic in his 80's.
Lots of his (and mine) friends and families will be dead.
Great.
Surely some quicker solution could be reached?
Ralph
PS. How old would Dave Bulmer be in 2030?

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 03:46 PM

"The stuff from 1970 will all be out of copyright in 2020, any 1960's stuff even earlier, the 1980 stuff in 2030, the rest on various dates in the middle. So it then all turns back into a pumkin as far as everyone is concerned."

out of copyright dates are subject to where in the world you may live...

and the type of dog I may or may not own is definitely off-topic.....

Charlotte (the Sunday view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Delia
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 03:39 PM

The stuff from 1970 will all be out of copyright in 2020, any 1960's stuff even earlier, the 1980 stuff in 2030, the rest on various dates in the middle. So it then all turns back into a pumkin as far as everyone is concerned.

Pumpkin Soup

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 03:38 PM

"Re Ralphie's suggestion of checking up on what the Trailer/Leader Lost Recordings in question comprise this is the link you need."

you can look at the discography all you want, it becomes an exercise in frustration, least it has for me.

"Don't be too hard on Mr Greenhaus.
"But, he can do as he wishes"

yes he can.....and so can I.

Charlotte (reaching for a Keleenex)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 03:19 PM

It's the old "believe me if I had the funds I'd be tempted to ask Bulmer how much he wants for the catalogue(s)"

Charlotte (yes it's Sunday from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 01:37 PM

It's not a PC thing, Diane - it's because he's using frames. I can right click on the link, 'copy link location', and use that for the address. I don't know if you can do that on a Mac (I know that right-clicking doesn't do the same thing).

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 01:29 PM

A PC-related problem is having a PC . . .

On the numerous occasions in the past that I have posted a link to the catalogue, I have explained the business of laboriously scrolling down on the left to find Leader. I assume, of course, that most people have this Gates-generated difficulty of being unable to link directly to the page. MacUsers always seem to (unless they are prepared to arse around with IE).

Sometimes I think of defying Mr Stradling and putting up a user-friendly site. Then I hope debulmerisation will set in before I get round to it. Then I start seeing floating pigs.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 01:14 PM

I don't know what the PC platform-related problem was (maybe because I have a PC). I hate frames and I tend to look for ways to ignore them.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 01:07 PM

No thanks.

I keep the Leader/Trailer catalogue in a folder marked "Things To Do" so I don't need to stray onto Mr Stradling's Gates-orientated site more often than necessary.

I wish people would test their sites on ALL browsers and platforms . . . (grumble, grumble).

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Delia
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 01:06 PM

Here's one I made earlier.

Apple Charlotte

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 12:55 PM

Diane, you need some help? Leader

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 12:53 PM

Hi Folknacious.
Well Said Well Said.
Nothing more to add.
Nic (and many others) deserve more than the the shabby treatment that they are getting at the moment.
It all changes, It all stays the same.
Thanks for the support.
Regards
Ralphie

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 12:34 PM

GLOSSARY

Rottweiler

A dog from the German village of Rottweil in Baden-Württernberg

Greenhaus

A purveyor of music with just a bit too much stock

Fylde Acoustic

A staple eBay item

Bonzo 3 Legs

= Uncle Boko = Stephen Giles = bootlegger

Charlotte

A pudding made with apples

Bulmer

Crap cider, also made with apples (allegedly)

Mustrad

A site to which it remains impossible to link directly to an individual discography, constructed thus by Rod Stradling to annoy

Sharpley

An international alarm signal

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 11:46 AM

Message to Charlotte.
Hi There
Don't be too hard on Mr Greenhaus.
He has been a good friend and supporter of the cause for many years, and has distributed lots of otherwise unavailable UK titles in the US for little or no financial gain.
I, personally think he's wrong re the Bulmer CDR releases of the first 2 Nic albums.
But, he can do as he wishes, and, I would never fall out with him over the subject.
Dick is not the enemy.
Bulmer is..............
Thanks for your interest in the subject.
Do you own a rottweiller by the way ???!!!
Regards
Ralphie

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 11:35 AM

From what I know Mr Bulmer talks to no one, unless his tame accountant Neil Sharpley (Ex Coroner Of Louth, Lincolnshire struck off a year or so ago) is calling the shots.
The very fact that CM tried to slap an injunction on the Topic Release of "Game, Set, Match" a week before its release speaks volumes.
CM just want control. But as I say, as the years pass, more of the artists concerned are dying, sad but true.
Even if it's just for the families sake, surely these recordings should be returned to them.
I assume that you will be stocking the Late Tony Roses memorial retrospective when Tony's daughter finishes it?
How much nicer would it have been to have been able to sell the recordings of Tony in his prime?

"But you can't.......Because I've got them....."(Bulmer)

Dick, as you know only too well, we all do this for love not money.

This whole sorry saga that has been going on for almost 30 years leaves a very nasty taste in my mouth.
But, while there is a breath left in my body, I will see a conclusion to this ridiculos situation.
In the meantime, don't sell the first two NJ CD's.   Please.
I found one in Virgin records a couple of years ago, and having purchased it, snapped it in two in the shop.
Petulant, and childish I know, but it made a point.
Anyway, you must do what you think is right.

Ralph Jordan.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 11:16 AM

Oh, While I'm on.
SurreySinger is quite correct.
Although the Bandoggs LP was distributed by Transatlantic, it was recorded by Bill Leader at Leader Sounds in Yorkshire, so, it, along with all the other records joined the chain gang to the Gulag which is Celtic Music, and there it still lies. Forgotten by most, but not all.
I also seem to remember a lovely record called "Fylde Acoustic" A compilation of various artists playing Fylde instruments.
That was also distributed by Transatlantic, and I lent my copy to someone......Big Mistake!!

Happy Sunday

Ralph

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 11:11 AM

Probably a silly question, but has anyone asked Bulmer what he'd charge for a)the rights to any or all of the recordings, or b)a license to re-release any or all of them?

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 11:00 AM

Yes indeed.

Bandoggs have suffered the same fate.
I really would urge people to check out SurreySingers link above.
It's only a click away, and you will be amazed at the number and diverseness of old recordings secreted away in Harrogate.
I'm sure that David (Fledgling) or Tony Engle (Topic) would love to be involved with the complete archive, if only all the legal shenanigans could be dealt with.
Lets face it, Mr Engle invested an enourmous amount of money in his Voice of the People releases. (Hardly a big seller, but invaluable for a few). I don't know for sure, but I think its unlikely that he's covered his costs.
Topic would be an ideal vehicle for the Leader "Grey" albums.
(For those that don't know, these were a series of source recordings, on the "Leader Tradition" label from the likes of Joseph Taylor, Cecillia Costello, The Sheffield Carol lot, etc. All pacakaged in a grey gatefold LP, with many pages of background, photos, printed music, and the history of the artist.)

Lets just keep fighting the fight, and maybe Mr Bulmer will see sense eventually.

Lets face it, his target market is getting smaller year by year, as people shuffle off this mortal coil.

Maybe he wants to go to his grave saying.....
"I've got them....they're all mine"

Sadly there won't be anybody left to hear him.

Some people are very strange.

Ah Well. Best wishes to all.

Ralphie (Founder of the so-called Jihad!!)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Surreysinger
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 07:17 AM

For what it's worth, my copy shows the following detail on the spine:

LTRA 504 "Bandoggs" Highway Records.

The reverse of the sleeve shows the following detail:

Recorded and produced by Bill Leader at Leader Sound

Highway Records Ltd P.C. 1982
Marketed and distributed under licence from Trailer Records Ltd

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 06:27 PM

Yes Bandoggs is/was a Trailer LP. For a while IIRC Transatlantic issued/distributed some of the albums with the catalogue number changed from the usual LERxxxx to LTRAxxxx but I'm sure my copy is an LER issue, but I'm nit sure I can get into the "study" to check as it's clogged with old Vinyl, old Folk magazines, sci fi stuff etc

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Surreysinger
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 06:22 PM

I was given to understand from all I've read that the Bandoggs LP is also captive in Harrogate.

Re Ralphie's suggestion of checking up on what the Trailer/Leader Lost Recordings in question comprise this is the link you need.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Folknacious
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 05:54 PM

Ralphie said: "Memo to self, Must give David Suff at Fledgling records a call.
The care that that company has taken in re-releases/box sets is a marvel to behold."

This brings up a point that has not been made so far (a.f.a.i.k.) in discussing the immoral CM CDRs: the crap packaging. In these days, a quick bang-out with nil design values and bad typesetting in a bog standard black-tray jewel box is an insult to "classic" recordings. If Nic's albums were properly re-issued by say Topic (or Fledgling) you could be sure that they'd be in a quality digipak or longbox with excellent new notes, historic photos, memorabilia etc. The extra value added to the already desirable music would make them unmissable items, exactly the sort of things which makes people keep buying CDs for their collections rather than lo-fi mp3 downloads.

Anything less than a quality package on a re-issue of a Nic Jones Trailer album is an insult.

By the way, who owns Bandoggs? (Nic, the Coes and Tony Rose). It was released by Transatlantic (not Leader) but with a Leader logo on it. Did that end up in Harrogate too?

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 12:59 PM

"Yeah, he's probably too busy to be bothered with the entire Leader/Trailer catalogue!!!!"

I do believe that if anyone can do anything for and with the Leader/Trailer catalogue it would be Fledgling Records.

Charlotte (the Saturday view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 12:39 PM

Bonzo Old Bean.
Jolly good job. Thanks for being a gent in not bootlegging it yourself!!!!
Maybe in due course, it might see the light of day, but.....However lovely it is as an "Aide Memoire" to how Nic performed (Jesus) nearly 30, yes 30....years ago, Focus must still be concentrated in prizing the original recordings that Bill Leader made.

I would also point all who might be interested in "Lost Recordings" to peruse Rod Stradlings MusTrad site.

Just click on Leader/Trailer....

You will be astonished as to the amount of material that has been lost.

Good News. Tony Rose daughter is on the verge of releasing a retrospective on her dads life and career. It's taken a long time, but, for myself I can't wait to buy a copy.

Memo to self, Must give David Suff at Fledgling records a call.
The care that that company has taken in re-releases/box sets is a marvel to behold.
Yeah, he's probably too busy to be bothered with the entire Leader/Trailer catalogue!!!!

Onwards and Upwards.
Have a nice evening

Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 12:03 PM

I will certainly do that, pleased and proud to do so. A quick hiss reduction treatment in Adobe Audition loses much of the tape hiss, and an experienced studio technician with better software would do a grand job.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 03:30 PM

"Italian Job"

nice title for the cd Ralphie, should it reach that stage (and we can only hope it will)

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 03:27 PM

Hi Bonzo3Legs.
I'm sure that Nic and Julia would love to have copies of this Italian gig.
I did know of it at the time of Unearthed, but, it dropped off the radar in the production stages.
I'm only guessing, but, I don't know of any plans for more retrospective releases,
I think the feeling is that the three that are legally out there will do for the time being.
Time really to deal with the original problem that forced the re releases into existence.
So, If you'd like to forward the "Italian Job" (!) to the Joneses via the address on their website, I'm sure they would be delighted to add it to there collection.
Thank You
Ralph
PS, I will obviously assume that this recording won't appear anywhere else other than at the Jones' residence !!!!

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 06:35 PM

"Charlotte, you're a bit late to all of this.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: dick greenhaus - PM
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:40 AM

The aforementioned Nic Jones titles on the Leader label are available from CAMSCO. If anyone has any reasonably firm evidence that royalties are not being paid (assuming that original contracts provided for such royalties), please let me know"

I'm not convinced at all, because as Diane has quite correctly stated Mr. Greenhaus'"jolly fine gesture (I only call friends by their first names)to boast a willingness to shell out the missing royalties and his apparent concern for, in this case Nic Jones, goes nowhere in "legitimising" CM's business practice. I firmly believe that Nic and the others I listed a few posts back would love to have the rights for their work(s) returned/sold back to them. Can Mr. Greehaus facilitate this? I think not. So until this occurs, as I said, please forgive my cynicism.

Charlotte (the view from ma and Pa's piano stool

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 06:02 PM

Dick Greenhaus is not (unless I have a wholly outdated and distorted view of what what actually goes on in Harrogate) the piggy- bank holder/finance director or whatever you want to call it with responsibility for paying a licence fee to the MCPS as CM ought by law to be doing to cover their clandestine CD production runs.

What he does is run a retail music shop/record stall or possibly sells CDs out of his car boot in the US. It may be a jolly fine gesture to boast a willingness to shell out the missing royalties but this goes nowhere in "legitimising" CM's business practice.

What the artists want is for their work to be made available in an above-board and equitable manner and the way for this to be achieved is for Mr Bulmer to just do the deal and sell back the rights.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 05:50 PM

Gerry - it's been addressed. The Joneses are apparently opposed to Celtic's CDr reissue of the albums and apparently no acceptable terms for payment of royalties in respect of that reissue have been agreed. Dick's offer, although undoubtedly sincere, is not what the Joneses apparently say they want, and in any case in the scheme of things won't make much difference, as he is only one retailer who by his own account doesn't actually sell that many copies. It could also be argued that if the Joneses went along with Dick's offer they'd be giving legitimacy to the reissue by accepting payments in relation to it.

I keep using the word 'apparently' in this as my understanding of the situation is based on what I've read and what I've been told by third parties rather than being first hand.

I think there is a serious discussion to be had with Dick and other retailers about this issue, but I'd hate to see a person who provides an otherwise excellent service vilified over his current stance and would urge the use of restraint and reasoned argument. Obviously, those very close to the situation may not feel the same way, but a big old rumble on Mudcat isn't going to help anyone...

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 05:43 PM

Charlotte, you're a bit late to all of this.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: dick greenhaus - PM
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:40 AM

The aforementioned Nic Jones titles on the Leader label are available from CAMSCO. If anyone has any reasonably firm evidence that royalties are not being paid (assuming that original contracts provided for such royalties), please let me know.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 05:35 PM

"they won't have convinced me of their case"

I'm not out to convince anyone...it's soley my personal opinion. Neil from Fish Records has addressed the issue perfectly

"If Nic is entitled to royalties on these releases, he has but to let me know, and I'll pay them."

funny...he didn't start making that claim till a good three-quarters of the way into the thread..so please forgive my cynicism.....

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 05:22 PM

There's one thing that Dick Greenhaus keeps repeating and that (unless I missed it) no one arguing against him has addressed: "If Nic is entitled to royalties on these releases, he has but to let me know, and I'll pay them."

Until those arguing against DG address this offer of his, they won't have convinced me of their case.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 04:23 PM

I have this - might Nic Jones want to clean it up and release it?

Nic Jones - Teatro Bonci, Cesena, Forlì, Italy, December 17th 1981, from master.

Disc One, Set One :

1. Seven Gypsies
2. Petronella (instrumental dance tune)
3. The Ruins By The Show
4. Instrumental Fiddle Tune
5. Fiddle Jig : The Lannigan Ball
6. Guitar Jig (instrumental dance tune)
7. Rockin' The Baby
8. Fishing For
9. Instrumental Fiddle Tune
10. Instrumental Reel Tune
11. Farewell To The Gold

Disc Two, Set Two :   

1. The Trees
2. Canadee I O
3. The Little Heathy Hill (instrumental)
4. Billy Don't You Weep For Me
5. Lord Franklin
6. Instrumental Fiddle Tune
7. Instrumental Fiddle Tune
8. Yamato Town
9. Monday Morning

Encores :

10. This Summer I Went Swimming
11. Guitar Jig (instrumental)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 03:21 PM

"whilst some of the key people involved are still with us"

unfortunately it's a bit late for Lal Waterson. God Bless Her.


Neil
Fish Records

Neil thanks so much for the imput I'm glad you finally "chipped in" and have given the Fish Records point of view. I was unfamiliar with your label until one poster mentioned it on this thread.:-)

"We've been offered the CD-Rs of the first couple of albums, I declined to carry them. Not because I thought they weren't commercial (far from it) but for the ETHICAL reasons well documented here."

well put, perfectly clear, succinct.

Now...are there any further questions?

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Neil, Fish Records UK
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 06:37 AM

Have been following this thread with interest and decided to chip in.

We've been working with Nic & Julia for almost 10 years now, selling all of the self released albums - it works well as it offers people the chance to buy discs using cards, and it opens up a wider market than the UK.

We've been offered the CD-Rs of the first couple of albums, I declined to carry them. Not because I thought they weren't commercial (far from it) but for the ethical reasons well documented here.

I really don't want to get into arguments with individuals here, but I think the discussion about the demand for ANY release from Nic needs to be addressed.

There is a strong demand for anything from Nic, to back that up I'm happy to discuss figures from my point of view.

We've sold well over 1700 copies of Unearthed and ISONJ (combined), and that's just through Fish and not counting the copies Nic & Julia sell. Both Topic releases continue to sell well too.

There's no reason to suggest that ANY re-issue of the missing 4 albums wouldn't sell at least as well as this....I'd take any suggestion from someone saying they're struggling to sell copies with a huge pinch of salt.

There certainly is a market for the discs, and when they finally do see the light of day in an official format, I think the demand for them will be incredible....in the interim people have a choice to make - either get the first two albums in CD-R form, or do the right thing and wait for an official release (whenever that may be).

Neil
Fish Records

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 05:39 AM

I think it's deeply unfair to refer to people who are concerned about how Nic Jones and others have been treated by Celtic Music as a 'jihad'.

No-one's announced a fatwah against Mr Bulmer. They just want him to do a deal with those concerned to get the Jones recordings back in the public domain in a way that ensure everyone gains - the Jones, Dave Bulmer himself and Nic Jones' current and future generations of fans. On paper, it doesn't seem that difficult. In the meantime, if the Joneses don't want people to sell or buy the Celtic Music CDrs until a satisfactory solution has been agreed on, it doesn't really hurt anyone in the folk world to respect their wishes, does it? As you say yourself, Dick, you don't exactly shift many copies.

A proper, above-the-radar, bells and whistles reissue, maybe in partnership with a label with a decent promotional budget, would surely make Mr Bulmer more money than his current, slightly under-the-counter approach to marketing does? It would also instantly turn him into a folk hero.

Having said that, in the past, comments have been made about Dave Bulmer on Mudcat that are extremely personal and insulting. Whilst passions may run high, this is a totally daft strategy and helps no-one: anyone with even the most basic understanding of psychology should realise that attempting to back someone into a corner isn't going to make them do what you want them to do - quite the opposite, in fact.

Anyway, let's hope this can be sorted out whilst some of the key people involved are still with us!

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 01:29 PM

Quote 3,
'I'm addressing the anti-Bulmer jihad, now.'

Oh, I see, so we're all folk-terrorists now, are we? a low swipe indeed, and typical to identify your opponents with the latest menace to society...in the 50's it would have been the communists wouldn't it?
I was thinking, when I awoke this morning, that perhaps I may have been a wee bit too harsh, yesterday, I can see now I wasn't.

Charlotte (off on a folk haj to Cecil Sharp House)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,HFA at work
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 01:22 PM

Quote 1,
'to keep the record straight, my motivation in making these CDs available has nothing to do with being a businessman--if I were, I wouldn't be selling folk music CDs.'

Then don't sell the disputed CDs then - you clearly don't want to make financial gain from others misfortune, do you!

Quote 2,
'I fail to see how NOT making this music available in any way benefits Nic Jones, or anyone else.'

There is an ongoing dispute.
Selling 'those' CDRs NOW - with NO funds going to the Jones or the other affected artists, or their estates,
WILL affect sales in the future, should the situation be resolved in those artists favour, even if only in part.
Who knows, some amicable agreement may result where Bulmer, retailers - AND the artists get SOMETHING at least!
Knowing there IS a dispute - why coin anything in now if you don't really care about making financial gain?

Specifically in Nic's case - Those of us who care for Nic, knowing he cannot re-record, or perform and make a living as he could once, would rather the music was 'on hold' rather than sold NOW - making only YOU and Bulmer money, and Nic not a penny.
It seems callous to make money while you can, on the back of someone elses misfortune.

Quote 3,
'I'm addressing the anti-Bulmer jihad, now.'

A low swipe, this. Pity.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:23 PM

"Except the income from the CDR's into CM."

exactly!

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: pavane
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:18 PM

Except the income from the CDR's into CM.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:17 PM

" so we can at least hope that the master tapes are still in usable condition"

we can only hope that the environmental conditions wherein the masters are being kept are optimal.

"I fail to see how NOT making this music available in any way benefits Nic Jones, or anyone else"

It isn't benefitting anyone under the current conditions.

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unBulmerised Apprentice
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:06 PM

it doesn't help Nic Jones or any of the other artists involved"

or Ashley Hutchings - The Wildside of Town (Celtic Records)
plus I think there was an Albion Band record on Dambuster.

John Kirkpatrick - Jump at the Sun (Leader)

Dave & Toni Arthur - Hearken to the Witches Rune

Muckram Wakes - Muckram Wakes, Map of Derbyshire

Robin and Barry Dransfield - Rout of the Blues

Mike and Lal Waterson - Bright Phoebus

Derek and Dorothy Elliott

Unto Brigg Fair - Joseph Taylor

I could go on, but I believe I've made my point. You want more?Examine the Leader Discograpy at Rod Stradling's Muscial Traditions website and see what is been hidden away all these years.

Charlotte (Bulmerised...I love that word!)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:05 PM

I fail to see how NOT making this music available in any way benefits Nic Jones, or anyone else. Would someone care to explain this?

I'm addressing the anti-Bulmer jihad, now.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,redmax
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 05:17 AM

Just out of curiosity, are the "Ballads & songs" and "Nic Jones" CDRs vinyl rips or do they sound like they were taken from the masters? Free Reed got some pristine-sounding tracks from "Rout of the blues" and "Lord of all I behold" for their "Up to now" CD, so we can at least hope that the master tapes are still in usable condition

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: pavane
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 02:21 AM

When I look through my collection of vinyl albums, I find that a significant proportion are in the 'Bulmerised' category, including folk album of the year 1970 (Rout of the Blues, Dransfields), Nic's first four albums, Peter Bellamy, Mick Tems, and so many more that I could list. But someone has already done that in another thread.

As noted above, various artists took to re-recording or even bootlegging their own recordings.