Can folk clubs get any better?

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 08:28 AM

I'm somewhat surprised to find myself in agreement with a lot of what Jim Carroll says.

The trouble with "trendy and cool" is that by next week it will be "so last year". Folk music needs to take the long view.

The line that really surprised me was -

Nor do I believe that adhering to this or any definition in the running of a club is either possible or desirable; without new songs, the clubs will become museums.

But those new songs aren't (yet) folk songs under the 1954 definition and therefore shouldn't be sung in "folk" clubs. Bit of a Catch 22.

The best of it was when you could go out three or four nights a week to listen to folk music ranging from reasonable to excellent....

Sounds like a normal week. Come on down to Sussex.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Banjiman
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 03:26 AM

Jim,

Thank you for your measured and informative post. There is some real food for thought here.

"Nor do I believe that adhering to this or any definition in the running of a club is either possible or desirable; without new songs, the clubs will become museums. The definition merely makes a fair stab at summing up what I believe to be folk music; it is a reference point to what our music is. In the absence of another, it'll do for the time being."

This I agree with wholeheartedly, I think the 1954 definition is useful as a reference BUT there is something about the STYLE of "folk like" music which we have so far failed to define, though I think most of us know it when we hear it.

Getting more people through the doors can only be down to better marketing and improved presentation (performance & venue). The product defines itself to a large degree as you have observed.

Paul

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 03:10 AM

TBSMF
I appears we got off on the wrong foot – certainly my fault for over-reacting to phrases like 'finger-in-ear' which is guaranteed to send my blood pressure soaring – for which I apologise. I really live for the day when we graduate beyond juvenile name-calling.
As I said, I've listened to all those you mentioned, plus many more, and they certainly don't come anywhere near my idea of good – or even fair, performers of folk song; nor will they attract new blood into the clubs – if that is the main aim. Tweaking and adapting the music to draw in new people has never worked and has usually done far more damage than good.
"We have to re-brand folk music as trendy (and) cool "
Why? In my experience, adults, particularly middle-aged ones who try to be 'trendy and cool' usually end up as an embarrassment. Young people (or anybody) will be drawn (or not) to folk music for what it is, not for how it is packaged - kids have an alarming ability to see through bullshit!. Anyway, it's adults, not just young people who need to be drawn in and making it "trendy and cool" is far more likely to put them off rather than attract them.
For me, Harmonium Hero's posting came as a hurricane of fresh air:
"If you want to run a folk club, you should have the strength of your convictions and call it a folk club. If you start by apologising for folk, then how can you expect anybody to believe in it? And if you call it something else, then you're likely to end up with something that isn't a folk club, and that's likely to discourage the folk fans."
That is what it should be about; nothing short of giving the music you believe to be important to as many people as possible by presenting it at its best – as things stand at present, anything else is re-arranging the deck-chairs on the Titanic rather than looking for the hole!
The clubs didn't gradually lose their audiences; the bulk of the losses came when they stopped presenting folk song – when it was possible to come away from a club without hearing one; when they moved away from their source and their output became undefinable – we simply didn't know what we were going to be given when we walked through the door, so we went away. All this can be fairly well dated by the 'Crap Begets Crap' debate that took place at the time in the pages of 'Folk Review' and elsewhere, and what immediately followed.
It's a myth that Irish children are taught from an early age – a few are, and up to fairly recently, the vast majority of them abandoned it a soon as they got out from under parental control. What has happened here is that persistence (not compromise) on the part of a dedicated few has turned the situation round and, certainly here in the West, youngsters are flocking to the music, guaranteeing that it will continue for at least another generation.
We have the choice of sessions here four nights a week and it can be heard and viewed on a regular basis on radio and t.v. - in performance and in documentary and discussion form.
There are two magnificent national archives of folk material and numerous regional ones. Here in Clare we have recently purchased premises and are in the process of setting up a local archive/visitors centre. All this on top of a theatre, Glór, in the county town of Ennis, which came into existence in order to present traditional music.
All this is a stark contrast to the situation a few years ago when the music was treated by the establishment with just as much contempt (diddley-di music) as in the UK.
None of this has been achieved by watering down the product, sexing it up or treating it as a poor relation to the pop industry; groups like The Bothy Band, Moving Hearts, and Planxty came and went without making one iota of difference outside of the immediate folk scene. In the main the music being played now is unadulterated folk played by people, young and old who take it seriously, enjoy it and value and respect it – that is what has made the difference.
"Jim. By the way, when was "the best of it?"
The best of it was when you could go out three or four nights a week to listen to folk music ranging from reasonable to excellent; when you walked your fingers down the columns of Melody maker to choose where to go that night; when you quite often had to queue to get in; when you left a club walking a foot above the pavement because of what you had just heard - but most of all, when you came away having heard a night of FOLK song (long ballads, short ones, transportation songs, rural love songs, urban ones, comic songs, bawdy songs, erotic songs sea songs..... and newly-written songs that were identifiable as having been based on folk styles and forms) - they were the good days!   
Banjiman
I don't believe that the 1954 – or any definition will draw in one single person, I don't have a solution to that one; nor does anybody else from this, or any other threads I've seen on the subject. Nor do I believe that adhering to this or any definition in the running of a club is either possible or desirable; without new songs, the clubs will become museums. The definition merely makes a fair stab at summing up what I believe to be folk music; it is a reference point to what our music is. In the absence of another, it'll do for the time being.
Jim Carroll
Sorry about the delay in responding; we're in the middle of a week-long traditional music school here, where the main problem has been which session to squeeze into to listen to the best of Irish music and singing.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,The Bastard Son Of Marty Feldman
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 07:53 PM

One way of getting schools to get involved Leveller is to maybe suggest that the kids play other instruments from an early age. It was the recorder in 1962 and still is! Would they put up with it in Ireland? The music and dance scene over there is vibrant because the kids are taught the tradition from toddler age and taught to play a range of instruments from a young age too. We can't teach the tradition over here because so very few teachers know what it is. It's a pity.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:11 PM

Hi Kerry & Mandy,

My wife has a couple of bookings in Kent next May but I don't think they coincide with the 2nd Tuesday unfortunately. We have to tie them up with half term as we are young enough to have children still at infant/ junior school!

John, I've always boldly called it a "Folk Club" but this has undoubtedly put some people off.....I'm going to try being more subtle for my next round of advertising and see if this makes any difference (though it is still there in the small print)..... I do take your point though.

Paul

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,Dennis Murphy
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:31 PM

Heh heh heh

Birdseyes backs up bechause he was proved to be an igonorant gobbshite on another sight!!!

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:01 PM

Been away over the weekend, and come back to all this. I've just ploughed through it all, and, finding that I was losing the will to survive, I had to go away and cheer myself up singing a few songs about drowned sailors and stuff. But since this is a topic I'm concerned about, here goes....
It's reassuring to find some people - punters especially - backing up what I've said elsewhere (most recently on the 'Earning a Living in Folk' thread). But while I agree with quite a few comments, I would like to respond to some.
The 'F Word': I suspect that this is dreaded more by some of us than by Joe Public. If you want to run a folk club, you should have the strength of your convictions and call it a folk club. If you start by apologising for folk, then how can you expect anybody to believe in it? And if you call it something else, then you're likely to end up with something that isn't a folk club, and that's likely to discourage the folk fans. And there now seems to be a plethora of alternative names; how is this helping? I think that if you want to encourage more 'non-folkies' to give us a hearing, you need to do it by example; be positive, stop being ashamed of folk music, and let them see that they are missing something.
Maintaining standards: (Sounds of man mounting hobby-horse...) I've already wittered on about proper resident groups, rather than lists of regulars doing one or two songs each, with the nights being run on a rota basis: a competent semi-pro resident doing a proper 'turn' fulfils this function.
Style of music the punters can expect: see above comment. In the olden days, the resident group was the basis of the club, and gave the club its style. That didn't stop other elements from being represented, but it did tend to keep things within certain boundaries, and give the club an identity.
Getting the 'yoof' in: this problem seems to be specific to the clubs, rather than concerts/ceilidhs/festivals. I mentioned on the 'earning a living' thread, and it's been touched on here, that part of this problem is that there seem to be very few young folkies running clubs. If we knew why, then perhaps we could do something about it. (Any young folkies reading this? Got any suggestions?). But I think that any ideas about making folk 'trendy' or 'cool' are seriously misguided; shades of Trendy Vicars thinking they can get the young people in if they introduce the guitar into church services. If you want to interest the young, don't start by patronising them. Folk was never an age-related music; personally, I don't believe any music should be, but then I'm bonkers; well documented fact. The trouble is, there is a generation missing, which means that young people venturing into the clubs are immediately conscious of that gap, and feel as if they don't belong. If enough of them do come in, then the effect will be diminished. It's a problem, but one that will pass with time, if we can just keep things going long enough. One thing I find reassuring: we've already acknowleged that there are plenty of talented young performers, but surely this implies that they are expecting there to be an audience. In other words, their expectations are much the same as ours were forty or fifty years ago. And they are having those expectations fulfilled in the shape of concerts/festivals/ceilidhs and CD sales. We just need to encourage more of them (they are not entirely absent) to try the more intimate experience of the folk clubs. And as I said, we need to lead by example. Stop dithering about and be positive.
Oh, and Betsy, trying not to upset people: this is Mudcat. It's the only pleasure some of these poor sods get.
Getting me coat on as we speak...   John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 04:51 AM

To emphasise the point about kids not wanting to be seen out with their parents, my son's been asked to play drums with a local band and when I said that I might come along to a gig I was told, in no uncertain terms, to b****r off (so disrepectful, kids these days).

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: kerry and Mandy
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 03:39 AM

Hi Banjiman

St Mary in the Marsh is in the deepest dark Romney Marsh in South East Kent. If you're ever down our way it would be great to see you.

Kerry and Mandy

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 03:33 AM

"Guest - But their parents are NOT already there. In fact very few people are. I'm simply saying that the next generation of folkies are the ones that should be made to feel as though they would belong in a folk club. Raffles, shit singarounds and inadequate performance ain't gonna be driving them through the door. Maybe a few decent new singer/songwriters and quality musicians will though. "

TBSOMF - anonymous guest was me - sorry. I'm not as pessimistic as you about this. I stopped going to folk clubs when I moved to London in the late 1960s - after Yorkshire I found them very unfriendly - and didn't start going again until about six years ago. Amazingly, the clubs were still there, albeit the people were older. Wouldn't you say that the folk scene in general is more vibrant than it's ever been - lots of new (young) bands and singer/songwriters who appeal right across the age spectrum and they ARE appearing at clubs (Paul's club is a good example - Doghouse Roses; brilliant!)? So why aren't the youngsters coming to folk clubs? Maybe they just don't want to be seen out with their parents. mrsleveller suggested that we should be getting schools involved in some way; there was a fantastic group of kids performing at Beverley FF last year, recruited from schools in the area.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:28 AM

Folkiedave, it looks like we better carefully define young!

Hi Kerry and Mandy, excuse my ignorance but where is St Mary In The Marsh (except like KFFC in the middle of nowhere!). I'd like to try and visit sometime.

Thanks

Paul

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: kerry and Mandy
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:49 PM

well it's been a while since i have been called young but i(kerry, 47, and mandy wont let me tell you her age), are flattered none the less.
we are just lucky i think with our choise of venue and the support we recive from our perfomers, guests and audienece, that make the club the success it seems to be.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:48 PM

The post that has been ignored recently on this thread is that of Kerry and Mandy

Or perhaps not controversial enough to attract comments.

I'm pleased to read they have a formula that works well for them and pleased to read Derrek Gifford is on the list of their artists - not a young one at all (thinking of other people's posts) but IMO, a fine solid performer.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:26 PM

And in case it's got lost in all the skirmishing, there are scores of creative ideas on how to solve many of the problems raised above (not solutions - just ideas, here ok?).

It really IS worth a look (they tell me).

Tom

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:24 PM

I'd just like to mention that we have Sam Lee booked sometime next year and that he's on at the Royal Oak in September this year.

Could I just add that it might be worth talking to some of the older organisers as well; they might just have some useful experience to pass on. Don't be afraid to ask.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:49 PM

The post that has been ignored recently on this thread is that of Kerry and Mandy; I get the impression that they are young. Because if there is one thing that folk lacks at the moment (IMHO) is young organisers.

There are some young organsers - but not enough. What I think we older/experienced people do our very best to try and stop people re-inventing the wheel wherever possible, and offering any advice from our own experience wherever possible. And leave them alone - wherever possible. I bet there are plenty of well-known artists who will support a club organised by young people. Don't be afraid to ask.

Don't ask me what works, I am a bit old. Ok A lot old.

But do go and ask people like Sam Lee and Lauren McCormick.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:48 PM

(I'm rather proud of my humility, as well.)

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:47 PM

...and it was all going so well.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:47 PM

Actually, FYI, I'M the least arrogant person in the world. And nobody'd better dare suggest otherwise.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,The Bastard Son Of Marty Feldman
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:30 PM

If you knew me Jim you would know that I'm the least arrogant person that you could know. I love healthy debate on subjects that I love and folk music is right up there. I'll argue the toss over something that I firmly believe in but I won't be insulted or spoken down to by the likes of you Jim. By the way, when was "the best of it?". I'm intrigued. If I'd have known that the stuff I've been listening to was shit then I wouldn't have bothered. I take it that your most recent post is the sum of your contribution to this thread. It would appear that Jim is right and the rest of us needn't bother posting. Me - Arrogant? I hope that we meet one day Jim. I, for one, would be delighted to throw down the gauntlet.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 04:45 PM

It might interest some posters to read some trade mark lawyers' essays and paoers on so-called "brand dilution" and the alleged harm that it can do to markets.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Banjiman
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 04:00 PM

Sorry that first line should have read

"Do you really think that JUST by putting on ONLY 1954 definition "FOLK"

Apologies

Paul

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Banjiman
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 03:54 PM

Jim, You kill me you really do. Do you really think that JUST by putting on 1954 definition "FOLK" that we'll suddenly double the attendance at our club. That is frankly ridiculous and seems to be your only contribution.

Do you have any practical named examples of where this has worked in the UK?

I also find that the confrontational style of your posts on here often brings out the worst in me (and it seems others too). You can almost smell the axes grinding as you approach your keyboard!

BSOMF. You know, I might just try your idea of putting on some of the local "young" acoustic bands for short slots at the start of an evening...... they'll have to come up to standard and have enough "folkiness" about them to make it work though.

Gene, the singaround situation I've covered above, we are well catered for locally in this department, which is a good thing.

It may be worth saying that I guess I'm really looking for tips and thoughts on how to run successful guest nights.....

Thanks, I've genuinely found most peoples contributions useful and interesting, even if I don't agree with all that's been said.

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 03:30 PM

I've been following this thread with some interest, and not a little deja-vu:>) Not pitched in before because I've said pretty much everything useful I might have to contribute on the subject elsewhere.

However, I've got to say I'd be absolutely dismayed if I was to turn up say at the Black Diamond in Birmingham (the one FC I've attended with any regularity of late) to find a roomful of people singing Damian Rice and David Gray songs! I hear quite enough of that kind of thing at open mics and it's not what I go to a folk club either to hear or perform. I don't think that WOULD attract more young people, either; again, if they want to listen to that kind of thing there are any number of indie-toilet-venues around where they can hear it; AND be guaranteed of company and a social scene dominated by their own age group. If you want to attract youth into folk clubs, you have to concentrate on people who actually LIKE folk ( traditional folk and GENUINE contemporary folk) to begin with.

Can I just say, too (in response to one or two posters who've derided it) that I think the singaround format has considerable merit and I for one would be very sorry if it was allowed to become extinct. There are plenty of singarounds around which can boast some extremely talented regulars (the ones @ Black Diamond being one prime example IMO- and not just because I go there!); and my own musical experience would be much the poorer without them- most of the trad songs I perform I picked up at singarounds; most of the best traditional singers I've heard, I've heard at singarounds. It resonates with me in the main because its a mutually participatory experience- not about standing on a stage being the "star", or about sitting around on your arse, passively being entertained- and people (young or otherwise) need that more than ever in an age when mass culture is becoming ever more about being a passive, receptive consumer thereof.

So, all that being said, er, how DO we attract more young people into folk clubs whilst retaining the folk brand? Dunno...:^(

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 02:44 PM

"Sorry Paul but people like him get right up my nose. Who the f**k does he think he is?"
Just somebody who recognises arrogant crap when he sees it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Dave Earl
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 01:33 PM

Er there is something about the style and content of the posts by GUEST,The Bastard Son Of marty Feldmant that seems awfully familiar. If it's who I think it our paths and swords have crossed before

But to answer the question, Yes there is always room for improvement but the club is yours Mr Organiser and you must run it as you see fit.

What's saying about whatever it is being in the eye of the beholder.

Dave

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,The Bastard Son Of marty Feldman
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 01:09 PM

Guest - But their parents are NOT already there. In fact very few people are. I'm simply saying that the next generation of folkies are the ones that should be made to feel as though they would belong in a folk club. Raffles, shit singarounds and inadequate performance ain't gonna be driving them through the door. Maybe a few decent new singer/songwriters and quality musicians will though. I guess it brings back that boring old argument of "what is folk music". As far as I'm concerned, David Gray, Damien Rice and Kate Rusby are folk singers. And I've arrived at that conclusion because I've seen them at folk clubs. I know that's contraversial and how dare those organisers bring such a dearth of non-folk trash into the scene but there you have it! Some people will be very naughty indeed.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,The Bastard Son Of Marty Feldman
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:57 PM

"A personal plea to keep this positive with constructive thoughts and shining examples especially welcome.

Thanks

Paul"

Sorry Paul but people like him get right up my nose. Who the f**k does he think he is?

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,the Bastard Son Of Marty Feldman
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:53 PM

So it's arrogance is it Jim? And there was me thinking that it was MY solution to the problem. Oh well, I bow to your obviously superior knowledge your magnificence!

"If it fails to present the music it claims to, if the performers are crap (as many of them are), if it doesn't give me pleasure and satisfy me aesthetically it is of no use to me.
If I don't find what I want at a club, your solution appears to be 'lower my standards and look for something else' - arrogant crap"

It also appears that you are another of the reasons that people won't visit folk clubs. Supercilious wankers that bore the f***ing pants off everyone.

Sorry for having an opinion that differs from yours!

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:29 AM

"They'll bring a) their parents b) their mates c) their parents' mates."

TBSOMF, isn't it the other way round? Their parents are the ones who are already there - they just need to persuade their kids to come.My 17-year old wouldn't be seen dead in a folk club but my 8-year old loves it. Hmmmm... kids!

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 10:16 AM

Ooops - sorry, that was me!

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 10:15 AM

"Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,pttp
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 09:20 AM

Aye oor wan which is called the Irvine Folk Club in Scotland, aye ifwe got rod of Joyce Hodge because she as an organiser is rubbish."



Can't argue with that!

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,pttp
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 09:20 AM

Aye oor wan which is called the Irvine Folk Club in Scotland, aye ifwe got rod of Joyce Hodge because she as an organiser is rubbish.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 08:58 AM

Linda,
No arrogance on my part - I've listened to the arguments that have been put at various times on this forum - perhaps you'd like me to take you to the one that suggests (by somebody whose opinion I otherwise respect) that good singing is not only not necessary in clubs, but in fact detrimental as it puts off mediocre and inexperienced singers.
My whole experience in folk clubs has been a battle against the 'near enough for folk music' garbage.
Until the clubs take the music seriously (and not treat seriousness and enjoyment as opposites) - as far as I'm concerned, they will continue to decline.
The "dreary rundown building that offers a singaround and a raffle as the evening's entertainment", was not my statement, it was 'Bastard's' - I have nowt against raffles - wish I had all the money I've taken selling tickets!
And by the way - the PRS licence is down to the fact that the clubs are largely presenting non-folk material which is not in the public domain.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 07:46 AM

Folknacious is right to say we have had this discussion before. In the 70's, 80's etc. But it is also true that when traditional singers were "discovered" by collectors they felt that no one was interested in their style of music any more!

Each club evolves or dies...they come and they go and the successful ones last for ever (e.g.Lewes, Croydon, Dartford to name 3 in the south.)

You can find as many different reasons for not going to a folk club as you can for going to one!

For those who find that the diet of folk music locally is not to their liking, the answer to their dilemma is in this thread. Go out and start your own! There is enough sage advice here to get you started! The rest is up to you.

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 07:25 AM

I think the arrogance is yours Jim Carroll, assumng your standards are much better than our own-that's the arrogance! By the way -our raffle pays for the PRS license charge which in our case is £30.00 per week -they are means to an end not some cosy accompaniment to a sing song to entertain those who know no better.The next time a professional artist comes and the audience is a bit thin I will tell him I've weeded out the ones who don't know much about music but enjoyed the atmosphere , and we've turned away those who aren't really folk music but entertained us anyway and whose money help paid for the fee - I don't think you live in the real world Mr Carroll.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:16 AM

Bastard son (can't be bothered with the rest)
What a pile of clichéd cobblers.
A club should be a means to an end, not an end in itself.
If it fails to present the music it claims to, if the performers are crap (as many of them are), if it doesn't give me pleasure and satisfy me aesthetically it is of no use to me.
If I don't find what I want at a club, your solution appears to be 'lower my standards and look for something else' - arrogant crap ("sorry, we haven't got any cheese - try bananas")!
My musical tastes are wide and varied - I know where to go to find jazz, classical music, blues, opera.... in my latter years in the UK I found it virtually impossible to find good folk music.
Why should I adapt my tastes to accept - now who was it "Damien Rice, David Gray, Kate Rusby" - sorry - tried them all and found them falling very short of what I consider good folk singing, and if your concept of a folk club is "a dreary rundown building that offers a singaround and a raffle" - that may be what folk clubs have become, but I can only say you missed the best of it.
To repeat - arrogant crap.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: kerry and Mandy
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:54 AM

hi all
we run a club on the second tuseday of the month, at the Star Inn, St Mary in the Marsh. it's a pub in the middle of no where, so we thought it would be a quite venue.WRONG.
we dont call it a folk club, although the music is predomantly folk, there is a lot of variety.we reguly have 14 to 16 acts, and pack in 60 to 70 people every month. the people who come to listen are very very good, quiet and attentive when people are performing and the audience side is increasing all the time.
it is actualy in the main bar, and it is accoustic, any one is welcome and we have some really good up and comeing youngsters, one of which is ayoung man called Chris mellor, look out for him he's very good, and only 15 years old.
we have guest night but make then a seperate night 4 times a year, we have had Johhny Collins, Greame Knights, Paul Sirman, and in september we have Derek Gifford, and when Hughie Jones has recovered from his illness he will be comeing as well.
dont know what the secret is but Brian and Barb's the landlords are 100% be hind us, and supply free nibbles for all.
we always have agood 20 to 30 minuet break, for the social side and to let people chat.
we gave up trying to work out why it works and now just accept it is what it is and enjoy every moment.
thank you all who attend and make it such a magical night.
best wishes
kerry and mandy

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,The Bastard Son Of Marty Feldman
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 04:32 AM

Great thread Paul. I have several views which are obviously debatable. Firstly, folk clubs have not evolved in 50 years. Numbers have dwindled since the heyday and look as if they won't recover any time soon. I put this down to a lack of foresight by many organisers. Many traditionalists will not embrace change or the advent of youth. Clubs will only survive when the next generation are encouraged to come along and partake or listen. The only way to do this is to dangle the carrot and tease them in. After all, it's not as though the youth of today aren't interested in the music. How many teenagers do you see at festivals? I'd say its an awful lot. But how many of those kids do you see in folk clubs? Virtually none. I doubt we'll see the Damien Rice, David Gray, Kate Rusby crew stepping foot through the doorway of some dreary rundown building that offers a singaround and a raffle as the evening's entertainment. We have to give them something. Many clubs are now run in Arts Centres as we know. These clubs are some of the more successful clubs around. They put on a quality guest virtually every time and brand themselves as an acoustic or music club. Now, there's nothing wrong with calling it a folk club but organisers must accept that they really aren't going to tempt very many of the crossover/curious types through the door. Folk music, generally, in the face of the public, is still a laughing stock. Something to do with Aran sweaters, pewter tankards and beards. Oh, and the finger in the ear of course. We have to re-brand folk music as trendy, cool and , above all, very good indeed and worth listening to. If we don't want that and we are happy with the current format then we can't complain that nobody is going to them. If we prefer to stay as traditionalists then that's fine. We can continue to call them folk clubs and hold our raffles but we only have ourselves to blame when it all goes tits up! Let's invite younger local performers to do 10 minutes before the guest comes on. They'll bring a) their parents b) their mates c) their parents' mates. Now that would be good. Lots of new faces that are drifting into the unknown. Who knows? They may even have a good time!

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 03:46 AM

FOLKNACIOUS: The only difference nowadays: 1) we have hundreds of festivals where people get to find out how good the music can be, especially played by the newer generation, so become less tolerant of the shoddy, 2) arts centres, where people get to find out how pleasant it can be to experience music in a decent listening environment with reasonable professional organisation, so become less tolerant of the shoddy.

Whilst I largely agree with these sentiments (though disagreeing with your other ones about singarounds happening behind locked doors!) I think the problem with this is that you can only go to so many festivals, so what do you do for your fix in between? Also, not everywhere has concert type venues already putting on folk acts. In Manchester you can see well known people like Waterson Carthy, Seth Lakeman, Kate Rusby etc, but none of the smaller concert venues seem to want to touch folk with a barge pole.

This is where there is a possible role for a decent, well run folk club who fancy taking it on. Drawing a parallel with the world outside folk for a minute, for many years in Manchester if you wanted to see alt. country, americana, post rock, pychedelia and so forth (usually by newish, not-well-established, non-mainstream artists) you could only do so because of the enthusiastic efforts of one man - Nick Georgiou - an amateur gig organiser, who did it so he could bring the acts he wanted to see to Manchester when no-one else was. He's now 'retired', but inspired and in some cases 'trained up' by him, others have leaped into the breech. The point for folk is that even if standard folk clubs aren't doing it, it still often needs the equivalent of a folk club organiser to make folk concerts happen. Just like with other forms of music, you haven't made it, as far as professional promoters are concerned, unless you are on their radar. The role of the talented amateur enthusiast therefore remains paramount.

Disclaimer: This may not be true of everywhere.

Captain Birdseye: Whilst I accept that folk clubs are also social clubs for those who regularly attend, can you not also see that if you are not one of those regulars (who have often been attending for years) that very clubbishness can often be offputting? I'm sure the regulars would be horrified to think that might be the case, because presumably they are usually decent people, but unless you're the type to stride up and force yourself on strangers (which I'm not, except on-line!) you can feel a bit like you're crashing someone else's party, which is not necessarily conducive to a good night out. Especially if you've gone on your own because none of your pals like folk... (sob), but that's for another thread: "TECH: None of my friends like folk - should I have them thrashed?"

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 03:02 AM

"but they can also socialise too, have fun, enjoy themselves,its not a religion,its a club not a sunday school or a church. or a place where po faced pricks pontificate,about the way Denis Murphy played a certain twiddle in 1954,.that sort of thing is best left to internet forums."
Clubs are were you (used to) go to listen to folk music - simple as that. that is (or should be) their main aim.
Of course there is no restrictions to prevent socialising down in the bar while you are there - as long as it doesn't interfere with the main purpose of the evening.
Nor should there be any restriction as to what form that socialising takes (within practical... etc constrictions). I don't really believe that you are proposing to censor the subject matter of a club audience's discussions and taking it upon yourself to decide what should or should not be talked about at the bar...... or are you?
I suggest you re-read what you have just written and bring it back to the class when you have got it right!   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:40 PM

Captain Birdseye

clubs are clubs, places where people go to socialise.

Jim Carroll

Folk clubs are places where people go to listen to folk music - allegedly

Isn't folk music, by definition, a social activity?

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:37 PM

Cecil Sharp Ate My Hamster

May I just take this opportunity to point out that said floral arrangements are placed on the tables for ambience rather than as tapas for any visiting gastropods?

Always take time in life's journey to pause and eat the roses.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:26 PM

1. The "eyeopener" to me was hearing Planxty. I've not heard anything since then that's really seemed to me to be a step up from there.

Learning that things could be done "better" did nothing to alter my appreciation of performances at all levels (at least providing the person is trying).

2. I'm far more comfortable in a pub venue than an Arts Centre.

without running the risk of the general public encountering them and being dismayed.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 06:31 PM

The only difference nowadays: 1) we have hundreds of festivals where people get to find out how good the music can be, especially played by the newer generation, so become less tolerant of the shoddy, 2) arts centres, where people get to find out how pleasant it can be to experience music in a decent listening environment with reasonable professional organisation, so become less tolerant of the shoddy.

Excellent post. I wish I had said that - indeed I probably will.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Folknacious
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 06:11 PM

Who'd have thought one could spend Saturday night in a time machine. I'm sure I read this thread before - wasn't it in the pages of Folk Review in the 1970s or Folk Roots in the 1980s? The only difference now is that people in their 30s and 40s are thought of as the welcome young ones, whereas back then they were the geriatric problem. All of the stuff about venues, floor singers, PA systems, in-crowds, blokes with beards, nothing has changed. Groundhog day. Solutions offered - the same ones, but presumably nobody listened much.

The only difference nowadays: 1) we have hundreds of festivals where people get to find out how good the music can be, especially played by the newer generation, so become less tolerant of the shoddy, 2) arts centres, where people get to find out how pleasant it can be to experience music in a decent listening environment with reasonable professional organisation, so become less tolerant of the shoddy.

I ran successfull folk clubs in the 60s, 70s and early 80s but wouldn't dream of attempting it now. Much appreciation for those who continue to do it well: audiences' expectations are so much higher. The old way is often not good enough any more. Many of the 'singers clubs' would be better off - in almost all ways - as private house concerts/ sessions where they would maintain almost all their positive attributes without running the risk of the general public encountering them and being dismayed.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 04:48 PM

If someone, who had never been in a 'folk club' in their lives, came upon this thread, I think they'd be put right off ever going.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 04:31 PM

I remember - it wasn't The galway shawl, it was the Galtee mountain boy.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 03:30 PM

Folk clubs are places where people go to listen to folk music - allegedly
Jim Carroll ,
correct jim,
but they can also socialise too, have fun, enjoy themselves,its not a religion,its a club not a sunday school or a church. or a place where po faced pricks pontificate,about the way Denis Murphy played a certain twiddle in 1954,.that sort of thing is best left to internet forums .
when I first went to clubs,it was to listen to the music,pick up a few songs , pick up a girl,in most clubs now you couldnt even pick up a dose of clap,in fact your lucky to pick up a zimmer frame. Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 02:57 PM

I only went to the Carrington once. Well Twice, But that was about about twenty years ago.

I went about two years ago one winter night. Froze my nuts off. about five people there. One of whom had the sheet music and played the tin whistle. It was so cold there was steam coming out of her nose when she exhaled. It was an Irish song - The Galway shawl perhaps.

might be another eighteen years.......I don't think I was really their cup of tea.