Can folk clubs get any better?

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 03:02 PM

The day you sit back and relax and think that the audience will turn up is the day you get a nasty shock.

I can think of quite a few organisers who had that nasty shock in their wallets over the years.

Getting the punters in takes a lot of graft but isn't complicated. The hard part is getting them to come back. It just takes just one little thing to put a newcomer off for ever.

The main points have been covered here and there are well established sites on the web discussing these issues as well. One little thing that I always valued when I ran a club was the raffle. It was something I tried to do myself as it meant that I had a natural icebreaker for talking to every customer in the room. The extra money was nice too of course.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 02:32 PM

Prostitution again.......!

you tried that at your club and it still didn't work!

perhaps you need better raffle prizes.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 02:22 PM

It really doesn't matter what you put on Paul. You organise it and it is your call.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Banjiman
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 02:03 PM

"Oh, and why would we want people who do not like folk and similar (stretching it as far as country for this purpose) music to come anyway? Would a metal night want a bunch of grannies knitting at the back? If the answer is just money I will start chuntering about prostitution again."

Richard, that's not what I said......I said non-folkies. My hypothesis here is that most people would like some (you know folky stuff, non '54 definition) of what we put on if we could get them through the door.

I can't see us putting much "country" music on.... Bluegrass and Old Time definitely, but you'll not see many lap steels around here. Would you like to define "Country"..... actually, please don't!

Paul

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 12:53 PM

They can always get better. The day you sit back and relax and think that the audience will turn up is the day you get a nasty shock. There is always room for improvement.

I changed the name from Market Rasen Folk Club to Faldingworth Live to better identify it as a concert venue.

I also try to steer away from referring to performers as folk singers as that drives away the locals who when they hear that word, run a mile.

Operating in a rural area and in a Village Hall with a community of about 300 aging residents means that it would not survive if they were the only people attending.

We tend to get between 60 to 90 attendees for each concert. Of that about 30% represent the villagers and 70 % from other areas.

The 30% have never heard of the performers before, whereas the 70% are into the folk world so know who has been booked.

To keep the audience up to a level that pays the bills, we advertise in the papers, on radio, by website Faldingworth Live including myspace and diary websites such as Folktalk, Display posters, hand out diaries and word of mouth including phoning people who want to go but have a tendency to forget (must be the aging process). There is little point putting artists on and not promoting. We also rely on artists promoting their gigs at Faldingworth by notifying their fans.

We try to make everybody welcome and have a bar on most nights.

Barring unforeseeable problems we start on time. A very important point in my opinion.

We are on one level and have disability parking and disability toilet facilities.

We try to keep the prices as affordable as possible.

We have our own PA system and portable stage. We have a very good couple called Gwenda & Terry Cater who do a wonderful job as PA technicians. We have 3 people who work very hard from the village in relation to the hall and bar.

We are definitely not a folk club but in all honesty, most of the performers are well known in the folk world.

To see pictures of the hall http://www.faldingworthlive.co.uk/faldingworth_live_photo's.htm

Yes we can make improvements and over time that is what we have tried to do.

I like to think we are successful, but we are well aware that things could go pear-shaped overnight.

Having said all that, one of the best Inclusive Singaround folkclubs in Lincolnshire is Gainsborough Folk Club. However I will leave somebody from there if they so wish, to explain why they are so good.

I have posted to give an idea of how we do it. I strongly believe that it up to each place to decide what they think works best and stick to it. Yes you will get the whingers who never get off their arse to help, but know how to do things better. That's life.

Above all I have to say that as a group overall, I think that folkies are the nicest people in the world.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 12:20 PM

Candles can adversely affect the breathing impaired - and if you do a "risk assessment" are a major negative. Sure, they look pretty, but can you chance it?

Flyers and mailing lists soon create a significant overhead. Fine I guess for concerts with stars, but a significant risk of downside otherwise.

Oh, and why would we want people who do not like folk and similar (stretching it as far as country for this purpose) music to come anyway? Would a metal night want a bunch of grannies knitting at the back? If the answer is just money I will start chuntering about prostitution again.

Myspace, however is good. Muppitz' club site I sometimes go and work out from to see who is playing what. And I like that she calls it a folk club.

FHB means "family hold back". In this context it means that if there are more than enough floor singers for the available floor spots it is the residents who start to drop out, rather than doing N songs each and then saying "Oh, no time for floor singers". I've seen it.

No PA or SR is best, if possible.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,No Fixeed Abode
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 12:17 PM

Paul,
    If you don't wish to do it yourself there are leaflet gangs....not sure how you find them but I worked in one during summer hols as a teenager and a gang of four can shift 3k in a day. think of the health benifits!!



Why not offer the job to the local weight watchers club!!!

(he he)

Tony

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Banjiman
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 12:03 PM

Tony,

"if you delivered 1000 leaflets".........feel free to come and help! That's a big, big time commitment..... which is always one of the challenges of course.

I am aware of the returns for direct marketing, you have reminded me of the the size of the task in hand.......thanks (I think!).

Paul

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 12:01 PM

Sorry should read "Bodhran" player..........Una had hit me.......... further punishment will be delivered later...................

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 11:57 AM

Thanks for the replies Paul and Tom,
Paul your first paragraph is interesting; I guess a good way to introduce non folkies is at a guest night. 200-300 leaflets is not much, no offence but marketing people will tell you that with direct mailing (the posh term for leafleting!) normally gives a return of 1-3% so if you delivered 1000 leaflets expect to get between10-30 people. I also know that how you word and present the flier has an impact on the percentage you will see. I do not want to tell people how to "suck eggs" but posters in shop windows leaflets in dellies, coffee shops, tourist information offices, hotels, B&B's, Libraries, churches and gyms/leisure centres may help.

I guess putting on flour singers is an issue. Personally I would want to put on anyone who can "Entertain" if that is a floor singer poet or baron player so be it! Especially if there are a lot of new faces/ non folkies. I guess that would be difficult as it may mean putting someone's nose out of joint (quaint northern expression) love the candles and lights thing…..creating an atmosphere or a sense of occasion is really important. (And it can also hide a multitude of sins!)

Tom points 1&2 ok….. point 3 I guess the bee in my bonnet is that leafleting other clubs just means that you are hoping people will come from that club and by definition the same people will be going round in one big folk circle. We are always looking for new gigs and venues to perform at and the way we explain it is like the bucket with a hole in it, you have to top up with more water than you loose through the hole. Folk clubs need to try and top up with new people if they can, to do that I guess finding people who will come to the club is a priority and then maybe educating them about folk music SLOWLY may mean they become regulars.

Point 4 if a folk club dose not have a mailing list I guess it is just a gathering of friends……

Point 5 I have a number of folk clubs as friends on our myspace page and what surprises me is that I get NO messages or comments from them. I guess you have to understand how to use myspace but if you have gone to the trouble of setting up the page and then NOT using the bulletin /messaging feature/ event invitation feature then I would recommend someone learns how to do so. Remember you can put video footage on there as well.

Point 6 I guess you are ahead of me there Tom………..


Thanks

Tony

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Banjiman
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 11:49 AM

Peter,

Those are good questions, I will ponder on them awhile.

Thanks

Paul

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 11:45 AM

Sorry...that poster with the questions was me....I had a coffee and ate my cookie!

Peter

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 11:45 AM

That last guest is nothing to do with me, by the way.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,Maud Karpeles owes me a fiver
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 11:41 AM

Midchuck, the whole English thing about beer and folk music long ago became a bit of a cliche, a living one at that, and it still prevails to this day.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 11:35 AM

Hello Paul,

Me again....only twopennyworth this time!

"Sound re-inforcement" ... sounds like one of those ads for a certain make of stair lift! Sorry, inter-floor perambulating device!

I would pose this question. "Why would some-one unused to Folk Music want to come to your folk club?"

And as a compliment to this, "Why would a folk fan want to come to your folk club?"

Answers on the back of a £5 note, please!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Banjiman
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 10:41 AM

Tony,

I didn't read any of your post as negative.

I am very keen to encourage "non-folkies" into our club, but have met with very limited success. We do leaflet the local area (not 2 or 3k but about 300, around the local villages). We managed to bring in some of the "locals" when we had Jez Lowe on and when we had my other half (she's massive in Kirkby Fleetham, shame about the rest of the universe!) on as main guests. Apart from that, very little support outside of the "folk community".

Rightly or wrongly I have a theory that "floorsingers" put off non "hardcore folkies" and have resisted putting them on. We do have a singaround (that in the future will run from 6.00pm to 8.15pm) before the "concert". I hasten to add that I enjoy singarounds and informal music making, our club works hand in hand and shares a lot of membership with Burneston Folk Club which is purely a weekly singaround.

Once the evening proper starts at 8,30pm we have 1 or 2 booked support acts and a main act. We do use "sound re-inforcement", OK a P.A. and I insist on using stage lights and candles to create an ambiance (I'm a big girly at heart). Attendances have varied between 23 and 95 with the usual around 35...... my aim (and part of the motivation for the thread) is to try and double this.

Music styles have varied from Traditional unaccompanied (as support, I confess)through the Duncan McFarlane Electric band to folky singer songwriters. Our usual guest material is usually the latter, who will probably do some traditional material as well as part of their set. We have also run blues specials (well attended by locals) and a bluegrass special, which given that it was on a Monday night (we usually do Saturdays) was also well attended. Strangely we have had quite a few banjoists on as well!

There's probably more to say but that will do for now!

Paul

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 10:41 AM

1) some do some don't

2) most would, I think

3) not so many do letter boxes, but other clubs, libraries etc is common

4) Yes, but not all

5) Yes, quite a few do.

6) Watch this space

This page touches on many relevant issues

I may add some more ideas from this thread if no-one has any objections.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 10:17 AM

I agree with Richards "one needs list" One thing that I feel should be explored is this idea that once you have set up a club the people will "come" sorry but I see very little marketing by folk clubs (ok I am sure there ARE clubs that market very well...so please share with us here how you do it!) outside of the obvious marketing at festivals and local folk mags. What DO folk clubs do to encourage no folkies into there clubs. I know from experience that if you go into ANY tourist information office you will not find any leaflets about the local folk clubs…… again sadly we talk to local people around us re folk clubs and people are surprised that there is one!
Having just thought about it here are a few questions I guess I need answers to before passing further comment
1        Do folk clubs want/encourage performers/singers only
2         Would folk clubs be happy to see for want of a better term "non folkie punters" coming to their clubs to listen/perform
3        How many clubs have leafleted there local area promoting the folk club ( by leafleting I mean 2-3k flyers delivered through local peoples letter boxes)
4        Do Folk clubs have mailing lists
5        Do folk clubs use social networking sites like Myspace to advertise there club and guests (acoustic clubs and open mics are all over myspace)
6        Why is there no association of folk clubs as there is the association of festival organisers is there a need for one?


One final point…..sound reinforcement (p.a.) Having spoken to a lot of fellow performers a good sound reinforcement system (note I do not use the phrase amplification as that is TOTALLY different and unfortunately too many people do not understand the difference) is actually beneficial as it allows a lot more subtly to be used and all the performers I have talked to appreciate a GOOD sound reinforcement system.

I hope I have not been to "negative" and I also hope that people understand that I am trying to understand and help if I can.

Thanks

Tony

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 09:36 AM

Folking huge bottoms?

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 09:34 AM

"FHB" rule ??

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: mattkeen
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 09:29 AM

Hold the club someehere that doesn't look like its the sort of sticky carpey pub that used to hold Social Worker Party meetings - nothing against SWP I attended their meeings but that was 1975.

Do the place up so that it looks like we are going to have a really good time

DO us very good quality amplification unless in a very small room

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 09:26 AM

One needs: -
suitable music policy
parking
public transport
drinkable beer
suitable greeter
suitable name (I like "folk" so that works for me)
suitable mix of guest nights and non-guest nights
pub that is not home to all the local crims (lots of folkies are social workers, teachers, and prison officers)
heating in winter
low noise penetration (both ways)
stability
a suitable "FHB" rule for busy nights

Oh, and can someone repeal the breathaliser legislation please?

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,Betsy at Work
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 09:25 AM

Hi Midchuck, Thanks for those words of sanity - you're absolutely correct.You must think we're a right load of moaning bastards on this side of the pond.
I must show my colours and say that I wouldn't attend a session, concert or whatever which was Tee Total.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Midchuck
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:55 AM

Hey, you Brits don't know how good you have it.

Whatever goes wrong, at least you can get folk music and beer (and usually good beer at that), at the same time.

%*^#^* Coffeehouses!

Peter

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:54 AM

Something I posted on the Earning money thread might be more relevant her so I'll just post a link -

thread.cfm?threadid=112267&messages=227#2379527

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:45 AM

Resident singers who are disciplined

And does everyone else get to take it in turns doing the disciplining? I have a whip in my valise...

Only joking.

I'll come back in a bit with construcive comments, and I promise they will be constructive... however I must indulge myself in my new policy of reflecting on my comments before rarther than after posting them. So for now I'll join Betsy in the formulation suite.

I also think it would be useful for people like Paul who run a club widely acknowedged as a good example of how to do it right to tell us what they think they're currently doing that's right.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:38 AM

Access is as you say very important. many folk clubs are in the upstairs rooms of pubs. Which is okay when only young students want them. but we're all old now. I get short of breath. My wife's got arthritis.

Also there is such a thing as the the disabled dollar - why choose places that exclude disabled people.

Parking is also important. My favourie is the Vernon in Derby - although the parking is lousy there.

Its mainly a singers club, and there is a buffet in the interval. Although there is a guest once a month. Its run by a committee.
Attendance is usually very good and the room is clean and not unpleasant.

I think, looking back, I used to go to real dumps - very uncomfortable and dirty and we were stupid for putting up with it.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: GUEST,Betsy at work
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:33 AM

Some good posts so far and most have hinted on an element which I don't feel like mentioning just yet as I need to formulate my views / words in order to not upset too many people, but Waddon Pete has stimulated me with his use of "resident singers who are disciplined " which I find quite agreeable.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:30 AM

In my area [Cheshire/ N.Wales etc] folk clubs per se are on the wane.

Its sinarounds/acoustic sesshes on the increase.

I run a weakly one of this kind & attendances fluctuate but a steady 6-10 participants + audients come regularly, & from time to time get a roomful.

I too have shied away from the dreaded 'folk' label for our get together, instead calling it a 'Come All Ye'

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:16 AM

I have to concur with what Richard says: I want folk music (albeit in its broadest sense). The problem I've encountered with the two monthly folk clubs around my area that I've been going to for some years is that they've gradually turned into acoustic clubs. Now I don't mind singing along to the odd Squeeze, early Kinks or Beatles song but when someone decided to do a really bad version of Comfortable Numb….need I say more? Also people seem less inclined to want to listen to 'real' folk music and by the tenth verse of Bonnie Annie you could see the eyes glazing over and one or two muttering about singing something a bit more cheeful. Now, I really like the people who go there but it's a vicious circle and the less folk music there is, the less folk musicians go – me included. Don't get me wrong, there are always plenty of performers (often 15 or 20) but very few listeners, if you see what I mean

Without trying to be an a**e-licker, Paul, the one time we ventured up the Great North Road to KFFC, it was a real joy. We felt right at home, not just with the really friendly people but with the style and choice of music. We even found two of the folkies who used to go to our clubs there! Ha, seems the Howden lot are migrating north. This is why it's such a shame that your pub has shut, although the village hall atmosphere was great (and it's cheaper as you can bring your own drink).

You seem to have the advantage of operating in a vibrant folk community in an area where there are quite a few excellent performers and like-minded people. I can understand that your location might be a disadvantage in attracting large numbers out on a cold winter night, which might make it a struggle to cover the cost of your guests but, as a general rule, the 'better mousetrap' analogy would seem to apply especially if, as you do so well, you publicise to the widest audience possible as well. Also, I think you're wise to have it on a Saturday; we almost never go out during the week because of work and family.

How could you make it better? Move closer to where we live. Apart from that I've no helpful tips whatsoever.Sorry!

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:15 AM

Hello Paul,

A very wide ranging topic...but a three-pennyworth from me!

Access is important e.g. easy to get to and with good car parking. It should also be in an area where your patrons do not have to run the gauntlet of those who care to spend their evenings in less agreeable pursuits(!)

Ethos is more important that ambiance (did I spell that right?).

Make sure the guest list reflects the considered views of the audience...not the personal likes and dislikes of the organiser(s).

Have resident singers who are disciplined enough to only do the bare minimum on a guest night.

Only have amplification as a last resort.

How's that for starters?

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: muppitz
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:13 AM

I co-run a folk club and possibly the only thing we got wrong in the instigation of it was calling it a FOLK club, the word seems to scare people off and we're not exclusive to folk either so with the benefit of hindsight, we maybe should have called ourselves something else!
Our closest club, which has been going for over 30 years and is also called a FOLK club is well attended every week but has a reputation for better attended singers nights than guest nights, depending on the guest(s).

Our attendance is as changeable as the weather, it's possible the weather is a factor as where the club is was evacuated during the heavy rains in the UK last year, there is also the fact that we don't operate every week and unless you have our publicity or you've committed our schedule to memory then there would be some confusion as to our club nights.
We've only been going for a year and a bit so we're in our infancy but we're not bankrupt yet so we're keeping positive!

muppitz
x

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Banjiman
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:09 AM

Thank you Richard.... any other aspects that you could comment on.... ambience, facilities, venues etc?

The type of "folk music" on offer is of course central but from what I've seen (about 20+ performance clubs in the last year + many singarounds & sessions) it is not the only important aspect of having a good experience at a Folk Club. But then I'm pretty eclectic in my tastes, excellence in performance and/or musicianship I would rate as very important though.

Subject: RE: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:02 AM

Shall I stick my neck out and say that folk music would be nice, but that no-one should be excluded?

Subject: Can folk clubs get any better?
From: Banjiman
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 07:34 AM

There has been quite a discussion on the "earning a living from folk" thread as to the merits (or not) of the current folk club scene (specifically in the UK, but I am very interested in what works well in other countries too) and how clubs currently operate.

As a folk club organiser I am keen to learn what it is that people like about the current approaches and explore what could be done to increase attendances where they are poor.

I am especially interested in the perception that guest nights are generally less well attended than they were "back in the day" ....... what can be done (if anything) to reverse this trend?

A personal plea to keep this positive with constructive thoughts and shining examples especially welcome.

Thanks

Paul