BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 01:54 PM

The more oil you extract the less is there to be extracted in the future, when the price can be expected to be higher. I don't know if that's what Chavez is trying to do, but cutting back on oil extraction would make excellent sense. Getting it out of the ground and onto the market as fast as possible is a crazy idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Dickey
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 11:07 PM

Hurricane Chávez

What's worse for energy security: a natural disaster or a petro-bully?

Washington Post Sunday, September 24, 2006; Page B06

HUGO CHAVEZ got the attention that he craves by comparing President ush to Satan last week. But the Venezuelan leader's absurd talk may be less threatening than his equally absurd incompetence. Since Mr. hávez took power seven years ago, Venezuela has mismanaged its oil so disastrously that production may have fallen by almost half, according to the estimates of outsiders, reducing global oil supply by a bit more than 1 percent. Along with natural disasters and Nigerian rebels, Mr. Chávez's ineptitude has contributed to high energy prices.

It takes sustained determination to reduce output by that much, and Mr. Chávez has provided it. He inherited a competent national oil company that produced three times more per worker than its Mexican counterpart. He immediately starved it of investment capital and dispatched ignorant political cronies to oversee it. When this abuse provoked a strike, Mr. Chávez fired the staff en masse, getting rid of two-thirds of the skilled employees and managers.
        
Mr. Chávez imagines that he can damage the United States by rerouting Venezuelan oil to other markets. He fails to understand that oil is fungible: If Venezuela's crude is sold to the Chinese, the Chinese will buy less of it elsewhere, freeing up supplies for U.S. consumers. But Mr. Chávez also appears oblivious to the technical difficulties in sending oil halfway round the world rather than selling it in his own hemisphere. Oil tankers do not come cheap, and China will have to build special refineries to process the heavy brand of crude that Venezuela produces. Despite Mr. Chávez's bluster about tripling exports to China in three years, Venezuela will depend on Yanqui consumers for the foreseeable future.

To the extent that Mr. Chávez's wild talk stirs up anti-American feeling, he must be regarded as an irritant. If he secures a temporary seat on the U.N. Security Council, as he hopes to do next month, he will doubtless render U.N. diplomacy even more challenging than it is already. Yet it is not the United States but rather Mr. Chávez's own countrymen who should most fear his intentions. Venezuela's courts, media organizations and civil society groups have been bullied into submission, and Mr. Chávez is talking about a constitutional change that would allow him to remain in power indefinitely. "The people should not be stripped of their right if they wish to reelect a compatriot whoever it may be three, four, five, six times," he said recently.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/23/AR2006092300721.html

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:48 AM

We should put him in touch with Dickey then.
They should get on really well.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 12:35 AM

McGrath, my Rog says the fellow who wrote the "comment" in the Guardian is a fucking idiot!:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Dickey
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:46 PM

Hugo Chavez on Condolencia Rice (verbatim): "Give me the "I can do it" (reading) method, to send it to Condolencia, who continues to show she is a total illiterate. It seems that she dreams with me, I am capable of inviting her to a meeting to see what happens with me. First she said she was mad. The next day she said she was sad and depressed because of Chavez. Oh daddy! Forget about me. What bad luck that lady has. I won't do that sacrifice for the country. Let someone else do it. Cristobal Jimenez, Nicolas Maduro or Juan..

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 05:35 PM

Here's a piece in today's Guardian which puts a different slant on this. The battle over the media is about race as well as class:

...The debate in Venezuela has less to do with the alleged absence of freedom of expression than with a perennially tricky issue locally referred to as "exclusion", a shorthand term for "race" and "racism". RCTV was not just a politically reactionary organisation which supported the 2002 coup attempt against a democratically elected government - it was also a white supremacist channel. Its staff and presenters, in a country largely of black and indigenous descent, were uniformly white, as were the protagonists of its soap operas and the advertisements it carried. It was "colonial" television, reflecting the desires and ambitions of an external power.

And the article is followed on this link by a lively debate from a variety of points of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Nickhere
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 03:18 PM

Does anyone else here smell a rat? With all this talk about how democracy is being trampled in Venezuela, it seems we're being groomed for a regime change. The long suffering people of Venezuela (and its oil) can probably expect a US-led invasion (as that country is famous for bringing democracy and freedom to all suffering countries with oil) sometime, unless they're willing to install a right wing puppet who'll give big business a free hand. Next you'll be hearing how Venezuela is trying to develop the atom bomb!! ;-))

Sorry, btw, I take that back about a US-led invasion: I know many US citizens are just as fed up as the rest of the world with the belligerent and destablising neo-Reganites in the White House. Just try not to vote for them next time.... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Dickey
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 11:47 AM

"..Although arrested by a different police force, the experience of eighteen-year-old high-school student Asdrúbal Joaquín Rojas Monteverde was similar. Rojas was arrested on March 1 in Maripérez, Caracas, by armed officers of the military police. He told Human Rights Watch that his mother had sent him to buy some cell-phone cards. He was on his way to buy them accompanied by two friends (one of them a minor), when they were stopped by the military police. Rojas told Human Rights Watch:

      The military police took us to the Plaza Venezuela, where they put us in a truck. They beat me with their helmets, especially on my left arm. They sprinkled powder from a tear gas can over my eyes. It stung like crazy. Then they threw a tear gas bomb into the truck. I took a deep breath and held my breath as long as I could, but then I was breathing pure gas. I was suffocating…the police did nothing to help us, but I beat against the canvas sides of the truck and managed to find an opening. I was able to breathe air again. After this, the officers made me appear in front of the television cameras in the Plaza Venezuela and say that I had received the money I was carrying from the Acción Democrática as payment for participating in the protests. They threatened to beat me more if I refused.
      
      The truck then took us to the military police headquarters in Fuerte Tiuna, where they continued to mistreat me. They gave me electric shocks five times from a baton that they carry (one of them also used it when he arrested me). It made my muscles contract from the effect of the electricity, and then my whole body started trembling.

Rojas' mother, Ivette Monteverde de Rojas, told Human Rights Watch that she saw bruises on his neck and his shoulder when she visited him on the following day.

Rojas was released conditionally on March 25 after being held for more than three weeks in the military police's 35th regiment headquarters in San José de San Martín, Fuerte Tiuna. He was charged with illegal assembly, obstruction of the street, resisting authority, and possession of inflammable substances. He was required to sign in every fifteen days at the courts until his case was heard. Rojas told Human Rights Watch after his release that he had never participated in the protests, which he didn't agree with..."

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/12/venezu8423.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 09:39 AM

I'm sure there are people in other countries, including the USA and the UK, to whom that account will sound very familiar.

Thugs in uniform are thugs in uniform the world round.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Dickey
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 01:46 AM

"...Carlos Eduardo Izcaray Pinto, solo cellist of the Venezuela Symphony orchestra, was arrested during the night of March 2 near Altamira Plaza, where he had been watching anti-government protests close to his home. Izcaray told Human Rights Watch that the National Guard had come under a barrage of stones and fireworks and had charged the demonstrators, who ran in all directions. He decided to walk home but was intercepted by a National Guardsman riding a motorbike, who stopped him for questioning. Ignoring his protests that he was only a bystander, the guardsman beat him repeatedly around the head, insulted him, and forced him onto the back of the motorbike. He was later put into a truck in which there were five or six other detainees. He told Human Rights Watch:

The guardsmen in the truck continued to hit me on the neck and body with their nightsticks, helmets, and even traffic cones. One hit me on the elbow with a stick so hard that my arm and hand went numb. Another emptied a teargas bomb and smeared the contents on my hair and face, then set light to my hair, burning my neck. One guy put a pistol in my mouth and made me repeat a phrase after him, "I am going home to my husband." I suppose it was meant to humiliate me.

After a while they moved us into a second truck. Inside, they made us inhale tear gas after closing the canvas sides of the truck and putting on their gas masks. They threw one of the big [teargas] bombs inside, closed all the doors and if any one pushed on the canvas sides to escape they got beaten. My lungs were burning and I really thought I was going to die. Eventually I managed to get out the side of the vehicle and they didn't try to stop me.

We were taken to the 51st Detachment of the National Guard at El Paraso in Western Caracas. They made us all kneel in a corner looking at the ground and they hit anyone who moved with their helmets or sticks. Then they gave me electric shocks on the neck and arms from some equipment I couldn't see because it was above my head.Izcaray told Human Rights Watch that there were three minors in the group with whom he was arrested, including a fifteen-year-old. "They were treated as badly as the rest of us. The guards made us stand up and sit down in quick order and the slowest would get teargas powder thrown in his eyes. Most of the time it was the kid they threw the powder at."

According to Izcaray's father, orchestral conductor Felipe Izcaray, "Carlos was released thanks to a kindly soul in the National Guard who allowed him to make a phone call, as he was on a list of people to be transferred to La Planta. The alert mobilized his family, friends and colleagues and he was eventually set free, but he was not allowed to see his lawyer during all the time he was detained." Carlos Izcaray told Human Rights Watch that, before he was released, a National Guard officer warned him of reprisals if he publicly denounced his maltreatment. When Human Rights Watch spoke to him on March 19, he said that his hand was still numb and he was unable to hold the bow of his cello. ..."

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/12/venezu8423.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 02:49 PM

Laws like that are dangerous. However, look at the various EOs on the books in the US and they are dangerous, too. Is Chavez an angel? Nope. But then, there aren't too many angels left on Earth. It doesn't excuse depots, but then no one has demonstrated that Chavez is a despot. It's the kinda situation one watches. He has done much good for the poor of Venezuela. The fact it doesn't meet with US approval seems not to matter to Chavez. IMO, it shouldn't matter to us, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 02:02 PM

Anyone serving time for insulting him?

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Dickey
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 01:08 PM

In Hugo Chavez's Venezuela it's a crime to "insult" the president. The offence became part of the penal code in March and mandates prison terms of up to two and one-half years.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 01:51 AM

In his latest "speech"Here
Bush says that "freedom is under assault in Venesuala"
"Chavez is using shallow populism to dismantle democratic institutions"
Bush also says that Cuba is "one of the world's worst dictatorships"
I suppose he must be refering to Guantanamo!!

The American public must be stark raving mad to swallow this crap.
Why don't you all just come over to the "new" Scotland we're on the road to freedom at last.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 07:44 PM

If Chavez models his civil rights on what seems accepted practice for the USA today that would be pretty bad news...

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 12:25 PM

Sheesh. More folks than that have been detained for less in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Dickey
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 10:24 AM

A total of 182 people _ mostly university students and minors _ have been detained in nearly 100 protests since Sunday, Justice Minister Pedro Carreno said late Tuesday. At least 30 were charged with violent acts, prosecutors said, but it was unclear how many remained behind bars.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/30/AR2007053001867.html

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Dickey
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 10:12 AM

Venezuelan Currency Weakens as Demand for U.S. Dollars Jumps

By Guillermo Parra-Bernal

June 4 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuela's currency weakened in unregulated markets as investors and companies bought dollars to protect their money from quickening inflation.

The bolivar weakened in the parallel market to 4,110 bolivars to the U.S. dollar at 4:30 p.m. New York time from 4,080 bolivars on June 1, traders said. The decline widened the bolivar's losses this year to 21 percent, the biggest drop among 72 currencies tracked by Bloomberg.

Venezuelans are pulling money out of the country as a two- fold increase in government spending over the past two years flooded the economy with bolivars and fueled the highest inflation rate in Latin America. Annual inflation accelerated in May to 19.5 percent, the fastest in three months.

Opponents to President Hugo Chavez and supporters of Radio Caracas Television, Venezuela's most-watched channel that Chavez closed on May 27, peacefully protested in Caracas and other cities today, the ninth day of demonstrations, adding to investors' concerns. The closure triggered criticism that Chavez was curbing free speech. Investors will be attentive to the marches, said Henry Travieso, a trader with Global Capital Valores in Caracas.

``You could call the situation a tense calm,'' said Giorgio Milani, a trader with Caracas-based Sequoian Sociedad de Corretaje de Valores CA, said. ``There are several reasons why demand for dollars should remain high for some time: the politics, the excess liquidity, consumer prices.''

Venezuela pegs the bolivar at an official exchange rate of 2,150 bolivars per dollar under restrictions Chavez imposed in February 2004. Venezuelans turn to unregulated markets when they can't get approval from the government's Foreign Exchange Administration Commission to buy dollars at the official exchange rate.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aiAqGalFOjCQ&refer=news

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Nickhere
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 06:54 AM

Lonesome EJ:

Ok, you make a fair point about the ascent to power of the dictator. I believe it is one of our duties as citizens of democracies to keep a close eye on those in power to make sure they don't seize absolute power. It is almost more important to keep an eye on the oligarchs, as they are often the movers and shakers behind a figure head.

If you're interested in history, you might be interested to study how the Roman Republic, almost 700 years old, transformed into first a dictatorship, then an Empire in a relatively short space of time. It might yet prove instructive in the case of the USA.

As for freedom of speech etc.,

Wasn't a journalist fired for publishing photos of US dead coming back from Iraq? Can't show reality too strongly to the public in case they have a change of heart.

My friends stateside reliably inform me that (especially immediately post 9-11) anyone who wanted to protest about the war in Iraq, had to do so in designated 'free speech zones' (which of course also implies that everywhere outside those zones is not free speech!) where they would be out of the public eye.

Which US media criticises the Iraq war and roll-back of civil liberties that accompanies Bush's regime? CNN? Fox? Maybe there's one or two, and they have to watch their P's and Q's.

Have the US population ever been more spied on? You might say if you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear. But that's missing the point. Once you go down that road it only depends on who has access to and control of all this information for a free society to degenerate into an un-free one. Don't forget that the words 'democratic' and 'free' mean nothing unless they are applied in practice (as someone already mentioned up the thread). Indeed, it has always struck me as one hallmark of totalitarian regimes how much they bandy about the words 'democratic' 'people's' and 'free' as if to make up for the actual deficit.

Once again, read the history of Rome's transformation from ancient Republic to autocratic Empire. It happens more easily and quickly than you might think.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 08:36 PM

There haven't been any armed coups against the elected government in the USA, so the question of what would be appropriate in regard to any TV channels that supported and encouraged such a coup does not arise.

(I know some people have said that what happened in November 2000 was a kind of coup against the elected government, but that's another matter.)

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 08:13 PM

Back in 2002 that station helped to overthrow a democratically elected government. (That government [Chavez's] WAS overthrown for two days.) Chavez let it continue to broadcast for five years. It didn't renew its broadcast license.

I think Chavez has made PR error, big time. However, if he was the monster some are trying to make him out to be, some folks woulda disappeared already.

If Bush did that, I have no idea what people would say. He's such a bad President that I'm sure it wouldn't be nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:55 PM

What's Chavez doing?

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:53 PM

My question is, if Bush were to do what Chavez is doing, what comments would be made here about the situation?

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:14 PM

My apologies...the above(lyrics) were copied from a blog which is accessed off of the Devil's Excrement: click here.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:00 PM

Some words from the Venezuelan who started and owns the blog, The Devil's Excrement, the link of which I posted earlier:

Written from the Venezuelan provinces, this blog started as private letters to my friends overseas, letters narrating the difficult days of the 2002/2003 strike in Venezuela. These letters became this mix of news, comments, pictures of the Venezuelan situation. Unknowingly, I have written the diary of Venezuela slow descent into authoritarianism, the slow erosion of our liberties, the takeover of the country by a military caste, the surrendering of our soul to our inner demons.

Also, posted by another Venezuelan regular there, to the tune of American Pie:

Venezuelan Pie: music and bolivarian poetry

A long, long time ago
I can still remember
How your speeches used to make me smile
And I knew if you had a chance
You could make those people dance
And maybe they'd be happy for life
But May 28 made me shiver
With the bad news you delivered
No more RC on the TV
Just because you said it had to be
I have to wonder if you cried
Cause it seems they wounded your pride
And I realized down deep inside
That was the day the Robolution died

So bye, bye Bolivarian guy
I thought you were a democrat now I know it's a lie
And the Chavistas are drinking whisky all night
Not knowing it's the day their dreams died
It's the day their dreams died

I remember back in 98
Everybody thought you were great
Didn't we all tell you so?
Then you wrote the book in blue
And we put all our faith in you
To follow wherever you would go
Well, I know you were a coupster too
But I thought that you had paid your dues
And turned over a new leaf
Not taking power like a thief
And all those guys before you sucked
A blow for freedom I thought you'd struck
But I knew I was out of luck
The day the Robolution died

I started singing
Bye, bye Bolivarian guy
I thought you were a democrat now I know it's a lie
And those Chavistas are drinking whisky all night
Not knowing it's the day their dreams died
It's the day their dreams died

Now for eight years we've been led by you
And it hasn't been perfect, yes that's true
But that's the price of being empire-free
Like the endogenous economy
Seems to mean more of you and less of me
Well, if that's how it has to be
You promised a new future for our land
And we were eating out of your hand
We leftists finally got our turn
The IVth would never return
And you quoted Lenin and Marx
Though in their time they missed the mark
Now we're singing dirges in the dark
On the day the Robolution died

Now we're singing
Bye, bye Bolivarian guy
I thought you were a democrat now I know it's a lie
And those Chavistas are drinking whisky all night
Not knowing it's the day their dreams died
It's the day their dreams died

Now I probably should have got a clue
By those other things you used to do
But I wanted so bad to believe
You packed the Assembly and courts too
With folks who never would argue
And it seemed you'd never want to leave
And oil prices have been sky-high
And there's still not enough food to buy
But I thought I'd still give you a chance
Because I liked your anti-Bush stance
But now though the country appealed
You say you'll never, ever yield
Your autocratic ways were not concealed
The day the Robolution died

--- --- --- --- ---

OK, maybe hard to sing on occasion as the meter blows from the original, but still, the point comes across, no?

FWIW,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:38 PM

...the people COULD vote out the Sandinistas ...

The people of Venezuela have had the opportunity last year to vote out Chavez, and declined to do so. In fact his vote went up. Hundreds of international monitors confirmed that it was a fair and democratic election. It just so happened it didn't go the way Bush would have liked it to go.

When the next election comes up they can expect to have another opportunity to vote Chavez or his successor out, if they so wish. That is, so long as a successful coup cannot be engineered to put in power a regime that would be more to the liking of Washington, which is a real possibility, and one which lies behind the actions that sparked off this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:22 PM

Folks are making lots of assumptions based on very little data, IMO.

What is clear is that Chavez took his business to China--specifically, his oil. That should be an indicator that he was no longer happy selling to the north. He has antagonized the USA (recall gas at really low prices for Americans who were too poor to afford the prices in the US?).

We in Canada know exactly how it feels to piss off the most powerful country in the world. The damage to our economy caused by Mad Cow Disease was unnecessary, but we got it between the eyes. (I always felt that's because we chose not to be part of "The Coalition of the Willing", preferring instead to follow the UN's lead.)

It would not surprise me to find out that the US has people (people who have bulges under their arms and receivers in their ears) helping to keep stuff hopping in Venezuela. A change of leaders would be one helluva lot easier than having to go through all the lead-up to an invasion of yet another oil-rich country.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 05:28 PM

"Finally the Nicaraguan voters were ground down by all this and understandably gave up and voted for a quiet life, in face of threats by the USA if they kept voting Sandanista" ...and under Bush's enlightened attitude toward Nicaragua, they felt comfortable putting Ortega back in power? The fact that the people COULD vote out the Sandinistas speaks volumes about what they accomplished. Not a strong argument for the Chavez-Castro School of Demagoguery in that comment.

As for Bush following Mussolini's tenets, he sure accomplished 1 and 2, and took a good crack at three, but our system is resilient enough to prevent further damage.

I believe the US needs to overhaul many of the ways in which we deal with the world, that our system is flawed but repairable. Maybe some of you would suggest we need a good socialist strong-man to fix it, but I disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 05:08 PM

"the Sandinistas were opposed by the Reagan administration,"

That's a slight understatement for long years during which Reagan sponsored and financed a proxy terrorist campaign against the Nicaraguan people in which many thousands were murdered. Finally the Nicaraguan voters were ground down by all this and understandably gave up and voted for a quiet life, in face of threats by the USA if they kept voting Sandanista

That's part of the background which explains why the Venezuelan government feels pretty nervous about giving their own Contra equivalent too much leeway.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:42 PM

"Those supporting the Benevolent Dictator philosophy would do well to study the ascent to absolute power of Benito Mussolini."


How about George Bush. He's more recent.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:22 PM

Katlaughing the spelling was "democrat" with a small d.
A real democrat would never support media who encouraged an armed coup against a democratically elected govt...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:20 PM

Contrast Chavez with the Sandinista revolution in Nicaragua. Nicaragua was under the iron boot of a dictator, Somoza, for many years. He was pro-America, it was the Cold War Era, and the US supported him. Through an armed insurrection, he was overthrown and the Sandinistas and Daniel Ortega took power.

Despite this, Ortega refused to follow the Cuban Benevolent Dictator model. Cuba was instrumental in supporting the Sandinista Revolution and in providing health care and teachers in its aftermath in helping the Sandinistas apply the program of educating and caring for the people. They also had, as a stated mission, the establishment of a multi-party system with free elections, and these took place under the eye of UNESCO. The Sandinistas were eventually voted out of power, but the democratic reforms they put into place remained, and they accepted political defeat and retired. But in the last election, Ortega was voted back into power, and the Sandinista Party is again at the helm.

Yes, I understand that the Sandinistas were opposed by the Reagan administration, wrongfully as it turns out. But my point is that revolutionary reform CAN be accomplished without resorting to Dictatorship. Nicaragua is a shining example of how successfully socialism coupled with democratic reform can work in a revolutionary environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:42 PM

Bush will be out of office in a year and a half. Taking any bet on Hugo, Diana?

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:40 PM

I'd still rather live under Chavez than Bush.

Chavez has inherited a lot of problems but Bush inherited a land of prosperity and look what he's done with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:23 PM

Those supporting the Benevolent Dictator philosophy would do well to study the ascent to absolute power of Benito Mussolini.

First, organize and head a party that promises restoration of power to the people and an end to bureaucratic paralysis.

Second, use the existing democratic process to elevate the party and its head man to power.

Third, demand temporary dictatorial powers to seize control of parliamentary and other branches of the government, and site outside threats and traitors within the government as the reason.

Fourth, design and prosecute large-scale "people's projects", such as Mussolini's Land and Grain Reforms to solidify the image as the People's Leader.

Fifth, through threat or direct action, silence all press opposition and outlaw public protest.

Sixth, demand further, open-ended extension of dictatorial powers in favor of the ruling party/headman's prepared list of candidates, effectively outlawing the opposition.

Anyone who sees a difference between this approach and Chavez' is welcome to dispute it. He, at least, is showing himself to be a conscientious student of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 01:39 PM

In Venezuela, you're arrested for protesting the government confiscation of the most popular TV station. Freedom of speech vital to the US but uneeded in Venezuela because they have a benign dictator.


"You get up at dawn to hunt for a breast of chicken all over town. Housewives are in a foul mood." says Lucylde Gonzalez, a Caracas homemaker, who says she hasn't seen an egg in a week."

Eggs aren't that good for you and are not really needed for healthy sustenance. And besides why should anyone give credence to a single disgruntled Caracas homemaker?
She is only one person.

" A private farm association called Fedeagro estimates Venezuela grew 8% less food last year than the year before, citing factors including the price controls, land seizures and the wave of kidnappings of farmers."

The fact that it's a private farm association make their stats suspect to begin with. It's like trusting Archer Daniels Midland to estimate the efficacy of agribusiness in the US. Propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 01:30 PM

That was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 01:29 PM

"...the coup was actively supported by a hostile US government with a long history of promoting bloody coups in neighbouring countries such as such as Chile, Guatamala, and indeed throughout the continent."

Ain't that the truth!

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 12:54 PM

Mr. Chávez blames the shortages on "speculation" by distributors and producers....A private farm association called Fedeagro estimates Venezuela grew 8% less food last year.

They might both be telling the truth. They might both be lying. Or they might both be selecting which bits of the truth to emphasize and which to ignore and which to distort, which is what generally happens when politicians or lobbyists indulge in spin, in all countries.

That's where a free press should come in, to sort out the spin from the truth - but partisan media that deliberately distorts information for an agenda are not part of a free press, they are parasitic hangers on who undermine a free press capable of carrying out investigation. It may be necessary to tolerate them as part of the price to pay for enabling free media to exist, but this is a contingent decision not a universal principle.

A TV station which has in the past backed an armed coup that nearly succeeded, and which has not changed in any significant way is a serious danger in a country such as Venezuela, This is especially so where the coup was actively supported by a hostile US government with a long history of promoting bloody coups in neighbouring countries such as such as Chile, Guatamala, and indeed throughout the continent.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 11:53 AM

Boy, LeeJ, there's some really twisted "logic" going on in this thread, isn't there.

I've never pretended to be a Democrat, I am one, and being one does NOT automatically guarantee my being lock-step with anything that party or any other party might propose.

What I know about Venezuela comes first-hand from my Rog working there AND from his friends who live there. But then, what would they know.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel
From: Dickey
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 11:53 AM

Dianavan:

In Venezuela, you're arrested for protesting the government confiscation of the most popular TV station. Freedom of speech vital to the US but uneeded in Venezuela because they have a benign dictator.


"You get up at dawn to hunt for a breast of chicken all over town. Housewives are in a foul mood." says Lucylde Gonzalez, a Caracas homemaker, who says she hasn't seen an egg in a week."

Mr. Chávez blames the shortages on "speculation" by distributors and producers. Agriculture Minister Elias Jaua recently called a news conference to deny there's been any decline in food production during the eight years of Chávez rule. The central bank stopped publishing agricultural statistics in 2005. A private farm association called Fedeagro estimates Venezuela grew 8% less food last year than the year before, citing factors including the price controls, land seizures and the wave of kidnappings of farmers.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117934540971705299.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Such an improvement.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Nickhere
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 11:11 AM

It might be worth pointing out that RTC hasn't been actually shut down in the literal sense - it is still operating through cable internet etc., so people can still access its news and opinions if they wish. It hasn't been granted a state broadcasting licences under terms allowed by law: its support of an anti-democratic coup (backed by elements within the US and Venezuela's rich fearful they might have to share the crumbs from their table) disqualifies it from state support. If a media outlet in the USA backed an assassination of President Bush, I doubt it would remain on air for long if the putsch didn't succeed.

The 'problem' for some people with Cuba and Venezuela is that they musn't be allowed to succeed, as they present alternatives to the 'American Dream' for all their shortcomings. If they succeed, people who have blind faith in the corporate capitalist model of the US might begin to question its wisdom. They might begin to wonder why a country that produces such fabulous wealth is unable to look after its poor, elderly and sick. Canada has a far lower GNP yet manages adeqaute medical cover for its citizens (Canadians, correct me if I'm wrong!)

They might also wonder why Cuba with its much-derided one-party system is yet able to provide medical care for all (OK, short on supplies - again, the embargo: any ship that docks at a Cuban port is banned from any US port for the following 6 months, making it very costly to ship / import / export to Cuba) while the USA with a whole TWO parties (that can find hundreds of millions of dollars to elect a president) is quite unable to do the same except for the rich or those with medical insurance.

So the best policy is to undermine these systems through coups, embargoes, covert subversion etc., etc., and then when they collapse (as most countries would under such determined and well-financed efforts to destroy them) the finger can be pointed at what rubbish models of society they are.

It reminds me of a Bob Dylan song "Only a Pawn in Their Game" when he sings something like 'and don't help the black guy because remember you're better of than him'

True, China is an autocratic country, and it's hardly neceesary to even say that North Korea is a failed state. But there is a happy balance, and I believe Cuba and more particularly Venezeula are getting there. There needs to be some balance between profit (a perfectly legitimate business pursuit) and people's welfare (the over riding factor).

BTW, it recently occured to me one reason why so many Chinese abroad are paranoid about being spied on by their goverment all the time. Well, so would you if everywhere you went - shops, petrol stations, streets etc., - you saw signs saying 'smile, you're on CCTV' and 'CCTV monitored area' and 'CCTV in operation'

In China, CCTV is the abbreviation for Central China TeleVision - the main State television channel!!! Weird, but true! Anyone with satellite access can watch it for themselves.
;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:57 AM

Sorry about that.

Last sentence shoul read..."It will be interesting to see how H.C. deals with the problems which will accompany increased prosperity."

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:52 AM

Bravely said Diana and lots of good sense from Bruce.

The squeals of our heroic "democrats" are becoming more strident.
Isn't it wonderful to see the desperation of the right, as their castles crumble before their eyes.

How Hugo Chavez deals with the problems of increased prosperity in the future.
An unlimited money supply is not a good catalyst for a true socialist revolution....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: GUEST,dianvan
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:09 AM

Is it true that Chavez has been responsible for a dramatic rise in literacy rates, the introduction of national health care, increased per capita income and reduced poverty?

So what if he shut down a tv station? He's in S. America (the land of coup). I think he was looking after the stability of his country.

In America, you're arrested as a terrorist if you express your hatred for the U.S. and discuss ways of disrupting the economy. Its called conspiracy. The media calls it a plot even when there is no evidence of a plan that could succeed.

At least Chavez improves the lives of his people. Thats more than Bush does.

Chavez has a healthy disrespect for the U.S. At least he's strong enough to protect his country from exploitation. More power to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Dickey
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:15 AM

Peace: Does North Korea bother you?

benevolent dictatorship? Is that an oxymoron like military inteligence?

Ruling by decree = better served???????

How are the students that are demonstrating better served?

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:30 AM

Let's see. The Venezuelan governmental system was totally corrupt and gave the people no representation, right? Somehow, though, the people acted through the system to elect Chavez, right? And now that Chavez has gained power through the democratic process, he begins dismantling said democratic process in favor of a benevolent dictatorship, so the people can be better served, right?

Is there something I'm missing here? And Katlaughing dares to call herself a Democrat, as I do by the way, and yet we dare to criticize the benevolent-dictatorial-process! The gall!

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:11 AM

So it's the Russians that bother you?

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: Dickey
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:08 AM

Peace:

If you consider growing unrest over growing food shortages and rampant inflation good and if you consider people marching with a flag with the hammer and sickle am improvement, then you must be happy.

Have you packed your bags yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Chavez moves against second TV chanel
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 10:04 PM

Interesting to see people like Katlaughing, who pretend to be democrats, whining about media freedom when he indigenous folk of Latin America have suffered centuries of exploitation and poverty.

The situation in the United States should make it clear to all whether they be evil or simply dumb, that "freedom" is only a word if not accompanied by representation.
If "freedom" is to have real meaning it should be available to all, not just those with wealth and power.

AS stated further up the thread, When an extremely corrupt system like that which has controlled Latin America for so long is being changed fo one which is more democratic.
"We have to be aware to guarantee that the forces of chaos do not sabotage the awakening."............Ake