BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 11:26 PM

Well, OG, where were you on March 11th 1967 at 2:15 in the afternoon, who were nyou with and what precisely were you all doing?

The one overriding fact is that none of the trash minutia you post- even if true, which is highly suspect- matters one whit as to whether the man served honorably in the Viet Nam war, while Georgie Boy hid behind his old man's influence.

And now, having committed the Taibbian Fallacy myself one too many times, I'm thru with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 11:13 PM

Greg F.

Give me some of your facts.

Where was Kerry on Christmas eve of 1968?

"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the President of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared — seared — in me."

Three out of Mr. Kerry's five-man Swift boat crew deny that they or their boat was in Cambodia during Christmas 1968 — the other two refused to comment.

"I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of almost being killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real."

Johnson was president in December 1968

According to Mr. Brinkley, author of John Kerry's book Tour of Duty, who received his information directly from Mr. Kerry, Mr. Kerry was on patrol in Sa Dec (50 miles from the Cambodian border) on Christmas Eve and spent Christmas day writing journal entries back at his base.

Kerry's journal: "A briefing with the Navy and another refueling and then away again. You have lost half the day just relaxing at Sa Doc, taking in the scene and basking in the security of your thoughts and the memories that today come steadily and quickly. Again you pull away from a pier and you start out on patrol"

Will the real fact stand up?

Kerry aug 19, 2004: "Bring it on,"

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Roadscholar
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 10:50 PM

An arrogant asshole indeed...one that is playing a role that he was born to, without ever having had to live the life experiences that would prepare someone for that position.

To whine and have daddy make phone calls so that he could stay stateside and party while other guys his age were facing hell of the highest order shows what a weak little gutless punk the shrub really is. That's not the sort of thing that a man would "grow out of" living the easy sort of life that he has lived.

And this coward has the bald faced gall to cry "bring 'em on" to a bunch of seriously psycho muthas while our guys and gals (the ones who have more cojones than our leader) stand in harms way, at his command.

And he lied and manipulated and rushed to get them there.

(instead of using them to neutralize al-queda, before more people could die by that same hand)

...still can't find that dern bin laden...

...oh yeah, but we have saddam....

(did he attack us on our own soil? no, come to think of it, it was the other one, the one that we did not kill or capture)

And that's all I have to say about that. At the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 10:29 PM

OG:

You may be getting older than you think!! It was not Kerry, but GW Bush, who said "Bring them o -- "we're plenty tough".

No telling how many died directly because of that attitude.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 10:18 PM

I disagree with you, OG -- I think his military record is genuine, but that a bunch of mudslingers have tried as hard as possible to stain it. I believe he actually has a sense of honor not found anywhere in the current Administration. I believe you have been suckered by the Rove machine just as you were about the real and present danger of Iraq.

Sorry, but we have equal and opposite opinions.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 09:08 PM

[Kerry's] Military record is trumped up bullshit to anybody that studies the facts

"FACTS"? speaking of utter, complete, 14 karat bullshit... do you actually believe the crap you spout, OG? Or are you the living embodiment of Matt Taibbi's thesis? Or can you possibly actually be as ignorant and bigoted as you come across in posts like this one?

Rhetorical questions, I suppose.......

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 09:05 PM

OG,


Claims by liberals are ALWAYS true- it is only the ones by conservatives that are FALSE. You really need to study more...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 08:48 PM

Bazouki:

If it is not important, why does Kerry keep talking about it?

He claims that he is qualified to be the commander in chief because of his military record. His Military record is trumped up bullshit to anybody that studies the facts so his claim is false.

False claims are pertinent.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Chris Green
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 09:04 AM

I'm not disputing that if Bush is impugned over his military record that he has have a right to compare and contrast his deeds with his competitor. However, I still can't see that it's all that pertinent to the rather more pressing issues that confront the American administration today.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 01:16 AM

Bazouki:

When someone presents their past as a qualification for the office they are seeking, their past should be evaluated. Furthermore when that person seeks to tear down the military background of the incumbent a comparison is initiated.

Kerry brought it up so he should have to endure the consequences.

Kerry said "BRING IT ON" and it is indeed being brought on at his request.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Chris Green
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:36 PM

Old Guy, maybe I'm missing the point, but I don't see how the actions of either candidate in the 60s and 70s have become the burning issue of the day. Okay, Kerry fought in the Vietnam War and may have attempted to get out for whatever reason (although, unlike Bush he at least went through the proper channels), but what does that have to do with whether he'll make a good President or not? Aren't his current policies and attitudes more important than his antics 30-odd years ago? And isn't the fact that Bush has made a complete pig's arse out of everything he's turned his hand to in the past four years and appears anxious to continue doing the same for the next four a factor in deciding on who to vote for?

I'm not from the US but for Christ's sake, fellas, get this incompetent, dangerous halfwit out of office before he causes any more damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:30 PM

I see no dishonor in fighting well and then seeking to end the war. Bush neither fought nor sought to end the war.

Hate is indeed a bad thing.

So is slaughter and wilful mayhem, and the murder of children, such as has been exercised against a lot of innocents in Iraq. Spilling blood is a lousy way to get an idea across.

It tends to make the audience hard of hearing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:26 PM

Amos:

What I am complaining about is a person who claims to be a war hero when in actuality he dishonored his country. Was Jane Fonda whom he associated with a war Hero?

Jane Fonda & Tom Hayden went in and out of POW camps in Vietnam while Americans wre being tortured and listening to Kerrys testimony. Put yourself in that situation and how you would feel.

I don't think Kerry did a damned thing to get them out but caused them to be in there longer and suffer more. Then when they came home they wers called war criminals because of all the shit Kerry, Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden stirred up.

I might add that I think Kerry did it for political reasons too.

I will agree it was a shitty war, started by a Democrat nd ended by a Republican but there were other ways he could have worked to end the war without dishonoring his fellow soldiers.

He claims to have been honorably discharged in 1970. He was not. He persued his anti war activites while still being in the Military.

Then he impunes Bush for doing the same things he did like asking for deferments and joining the reserves. He acuses Bush of lying about his service and scrubbing his records while he will not release all of his records.

I can't accept someone like that for president but most people would rather not examine Kerry to close because they hate Bush so much.

I though hate was a bad thing.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:21 PM

Kerry served in the war and determined from his experiences in it, that he was against it.

Bush was for the war, and refused to serve in it.

Kerry may not be perfect, but in this context, I'd say that Bush is an uninformed hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:28 PM

What are you complaining about, OG? A man sees his nation embroiled in an immoral war, serves as honorably as possible in the war, comes home and does whatever he can do to get his nation out of that war. It was a dishonorable war in the first place. Kerry found this out and moved against it. Bush avoided the whole issue by staying safe Stateside.

To try to compare the moral fiber of the two, in my mind, is like comparing a Bush crow with a Kerry eagle.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:10 PM

Brucie:

Did Kerry apply for a deferment?

Did kerry join the USNR?

Reservists are not called individually. Is it possible for someone to pull strings to keep someone's Reserve Unit from being called up for active service?

How do the answers to these questions jive with the accusations against Bush and Cheney?

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/guardandreserve/a/reservecallup.htm

"Branch & class of Service: USNR-R"
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Enlistment_Contract.pdf

"Kerry applied for a deferment in 1966 so he could study in France for a year. Only when he was denied this deferment did he opt to volunteer for the Navy signing an Officer Candidate contract to join the Naval Reserves."
"John Kerry was discharged from active duty, not the military, on January 3, 1970 after serving only three years and eighteen days of his contract with the Navy. At this time he was obligated to attend 48 Naval Reserve drills per year and complete 17 days of active training during each of the years required."
http://www.americandaily.com/article/4993

Did Kerry complete his obligations? He has not signed form 180 to have ALL of his records released, only some of them which are displayed on his website.

By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff, 6/17/2003

John Kerry flew Walinsky around New York to deliver speeches against the war. Kerry did not wear his uniform and did not speak at the events, but the experience helped convince him that he wanted to become a public leader of the antiwar movement. On Jan. 3, 1970, Kerry requested that his superior, Rear Admiral Walter F. Schlech, Jr., grant him an early discharge so that he could run for Congress on an antiwar platform.

"I just said to the admiral: `I've got to get out. I've got to go do what I came back here to do, which is, end this thing,'" Kerry recalled, referring to the war. The request was approved, and Kerry was honorably discharged, which he said shaved six months from his commitment.
http://www.tinyvital.com/BlogArchives/000803.html

Bobby Kennedy speechwriter Adam Walinsky wrote Kerry's famous 1971 anti-war Washington speech.

Are these facts to be looked in the face?

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Chris Green
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 12:14 PM

"Bush pretends to be a strong leader"

You're right, Frank. There seems to be a worrying tendency in political circles at the moment to confuse "strong and resolute" with "a pig-headed refusal to look facts in the face"!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 12:11 PM

The reason that Kerry is not ignorant nor an asshole is because he is
thoughtful, caring, intelligent and analytical, flexible, sensitive and strong (they go together) and that he is concerned about people who
are less well-off than he is. He also served his country honorably with
responsibility.

Bush, on the other hand, is not compassionate for those less fortunate then he, acts neurotically, impulsively, has a bad temper which he
uses on his staff, and has not served his country honorably but
dodged service through his privilege and his father's intercession.
Bush pretends to be a strong leader and may have convinced some
of the people in the hinterlands that he is but not all of them. Many of
them are not stupid and are educated and read about what's going on.
Bush doesn't represent them.

Kerry's values are for community, cooperation with other countries rather than alienating them like Bush has done, respect for international bodies such as the World Court, the UN and reflects the true idealism of America which can once again become a moral leader and not an
occupier and oppressor of foreign lands.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 10:09 AM

OG is a brick short. He'll come around.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:46 AM

As usual, you wilfully misrepresenting fact:

... because the Kerry camp is denigrating Bush's ANG service.

No, the "Kerry Camp"[sic]-as you persist in calling anyone who doesn't think the sun shines out of Dumbya's arse- is denigrating Bush's ANG non- service. He was AWOL.

And by the way: Kerry's daddy didn't pull strings to get sonny-boy into the Reserves.

Again, a difference in kind, not in degree.

Finally, long past time you hunted up all the old tapes of Tokyo Rose, took notes, and assassinated the character of each and every person she quoted, or that some nutcase at some time claimed she quoted.

Be as useful and as meaningful as all this right-wing Chicken-Hawk vomit spewed on Kerry - who served his country honorably.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:03 AM

OG,

You keep missing the point that first amendment rights are only for those that AGREE.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 12:49 AM

Brucie:

Two whole sentences that time. You are getting better.

"In the middle of his senior year, Kerry applied for post-grad deferment to study in Paris. It was denied.

Kerry enlisted in the U.S. Navy Reserve, "Inactive Duty" in Feb of his senior year. Note - not the USN. The USNR.

Both Bush and Kerry were reservists. This point is made only because the Kerry camp is denigrating Bush's ANG service."
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-gop/1221757/posts

Kerry got called up and Bush did not. That makes Bush a coward and Kerry a hero.

Kerry's Genghis Kahn testimony was played over and over in NV prison camps, furthering Kerry's hero status.

Returning Veterans are spat upon and labeled war criminals by the general public due to Kerry's and Jane Fonda's efforts. That took real courage.

Any Vietnam Veteran who does not like Kerry and speaks out is labeled a lying Bush supporter even though they greatly outnumber the Vets for Kerry. This alone dishonors them for thier service to our country and denies them their first amendment rights.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 08:25 PM

I can see that. You are brilliant, OG. Brilliant.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 01:09 AM

Brucie:

Are you worried that this thread will die and the Kerry is an arrogant asshole thread will not?

Keep firing off those brilliant one liners. That is probably as far as your train of thought goes.

I agree with everybody.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 10:24 PM

He's an anal sphincter on the body politic.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 09:17 PM

Lest this little gem of a thread be lost. Refresh.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 08:15 PM

CarolC 11:52


You are absolutly right.

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

My apologies.

I was in error.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 02:45 PM

No doubt about it, Bush is an asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 02:24 PM

Democrats are staunch protectors of first amendment rights?

"NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Sinclair Broadcast Group, owner of the largest group of television stations in the nation, plans to air a documentary that accuses Sen. John Kerry of betraying American prisoners during the Vietnam War, a newspaper reported Monday.

The reported plan prompted the Democratic National Committee to file a complaint against Sinclair with the Federal Election Commission. "

"If they do air a partisan film, we'll challenge the FCC and the licenses of the local stations that broadcast the film because local stations have a responsibility to the community to air real news, not partisan messages,"

http://money.cnn.com/2004/10/11/news/newsmakers/sinclair_kerry/

Are you gonna watch? I will. It might make me re evaluate the situation and change my mind.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 01:08 PM

I think -- after long reflection and caring examination of facts, claims and opinions on both sides of this thread -- that the title is correct.

Bush is an arrogant asshole
Bush is an arrogant asshole
Bush is an arrogant asshole.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 11:52 AM

beardedbruce, I'm sure you didn't mean for this to happen, but in your last post with my name in it, it looks like all of your points are directed at me, when, as far as I can see, only your first point is directed at me and all of the subsequent points in that post appear to be directed as someone else (the person who actually said the things that you quote).

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 11:12 AM

Upthread, bb says US will leave in January after elections if Bush is (s)elected.

First the Bushies told us we would be in and out of Iraq in three months.
Then they told us we would be out by July 2004.
Pentagon has said all along that we will be in Iraq for five years.
John McCain says five years is optimistic, it could be as long as twenty.
We are building a dozen or so permanent bases in Iraq (so they can be abandoned in January?)

Ya pretty sure about that January prediction then bb?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 10:39 AM

Greg F:

Really interesting -- it is always nive to have someone point out the trap into which you have fallen!! :D

OG:

Your man is bankrupt, mentally, fiscally, and morally. That's my opinion. I could be wrong.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 10:33 AM

The fact remains, Old Guy, that you are trying to hijack the Young Guy's thread. Naughty, naughty.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Matt Taibbi is an arrogant asshole
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 10:31 AM

Matt Taibbi

Matt Taibbi is the editor fo the Moscow-based alternative newspaper the eXile http://www.familyresource.com/contributors/8/

"Well, that's rich, isn't it? Christopher Hitchens crawling out of a bottle long enough to denounce Michael Moore as a coward. I can't imagine anything more uplifting, except maybe a zoo baboon humping the foot of a medical school cadaver.

All journalists are cowards. Hitchens knows it, I know it, everybody in this business knows it. If there were any justice at all, every last goddamn one of us would be lowered, head-first, into a wood-chipper. Over Arizona. Shoot a nice red mist over the whole state, make it arable for a year or two. A year's worth of fava beans and endive for the children of Bangladesh: I dare anyone in our business to say that that wouldn't represent a better use of our rotting bodies than the actual fruits of our labor."
http://www.nypress.com/17/26/news&columns/MattTaibbi.cfm

Continuing to bring you the best in penis-related campaign news, we learn a bit more about a controversy in the Kerry campaign. Specifically, Kerry correspondent Matt Taibbi once threw a pie of equine semen at NYT correspondent Michael Wines. So it's sort of fitting that he's covering the Kerry press corps, where his antics have included dressing up as a Viking and shoving cameras in reporters' faces.

"Sperm Pie-Throwing Journo Terrorizes Kerry Press Corps Now, those reporters really should consider themselves lucky. But journos aren't the only ones upset: After Howie Kurtz wrote about Taibbi in his column on Monday, former Clark press flak Matt Bennett emailed Kurtz to lodge a complaint. (Read it after the jump.) He cited the sperm-tossing and Taibbi's Nation piece on Clark (which was not flattering). There's also something about some "ethical issue" in Taibbi's Nation piece. (Apparently, Taibbi had an opinion of Clark before he started writing it. Doesn't he get the pre-article lobotomy like everyone else?). Bennett sums up: "Taibbi is, to put it plainly, a nut and a hack."
http://www.wonkette.com/archives/sperm-piethrowing-journo-terrorizes-kerry-press-corps-003547.php

"The girl, normally an office secretary, worked for the eXile. She was buying Pobornik�s sperm because she�d been gruffly ordered to do so by the newspaper�s editors. They�d been vague about what they needed it for, saying only that they needed a large quantity of horse sperm for some prank they were planning."

"�Cooking for the Enemy� with the Anarchist Gourmet
A PIE FOR MICHAEL WINES
    The true sign of any gourmet chef worth his salt is his ability to work with the rarest, most expensive and exotic ingredients. The Chinese have their shark fins and the endless varieties of soup based thereon, while the Piemontese of Northern Italy have their beloved white truffles, which are literally worth more than their weight in gold. We here at the eXile have a rich culinary tradition of our own, with one ingredient in particular being treasured above all others: unadulterated horse semen.
    Prices for this ingredient vary based on the quality of the source, of course. For example, prices of $100,000 per ounce are not unheard of for the finest specimens. However, sperm of such quality is typically reserved for the meals of kings and other economic royalty. In our case, 5 ounces of spunk from �Pobornik�—a decidedly mediocre 15-year-old dark bay thoroughbred who has produced no exceptional offspring—cost a reasonable 500 rubles. This is plenty good enough for a Moscow hack target, even one as diabolical as New York Times bureau chief Michael Wines.
    Monetary issues aside, simply procuring the horse sperm can be a difficult process. In most Westernized countries, you will need to present all varieties of identification and licenses certifying that you will be using the cum for appropriate purposes. Here in Moscow, meanwhile, we were able to cut a deal with Moscow Horse Farm #1 by claiming we needed the sperm for some vague cosmetics experimentation.
    Any number of delicious recipes would benefit from the addition or substitution of high-quality horse semen, but nothing says �We Got You!� like the good old-fashioned pie in the face. As it happens, horse spunk is very close in both texture and nutritional content to the corn starch that is commonly used in custard cream pies.
    Below you will find the basic recipe we used for the Equine Custard Cream Pie with which we hit Michael Wines in the face last Friday, March 30, 2001. Even the beginner should find the recipe relatively easy to follow and technically undemanding. The chef who is more experienced with the handling of horse sperm may wish to alter the quantities somewhat according to personal taste. Please note, however, that use of milk in excess of the 1 1/2 cups quoted will in most cases compromise the structural integrity of the custard-cream mixture.
    A final note on handling the horse semen. The specimen may be stored without detriment for up to one year if kept in an airtight container in your freezer. As we learned the hard way, however, keeping the sample in a refrigerator may cause the sample to assume a bright yellowish hue that may only be described as �radioactive.� It is not known if this change has an effect on the sperm�s nutritional attributes, or if it involves any kind of health risk for the human target. In any event, avoid letting the semen come in to contact with your skin, and it�s probably a good idea to dispose of any implements used in the preparation of the pie.
   
    Equine Custard Cream Pie
    1 ready-made pie crust
    3 egg yolks
    5 oz. fresh horse semen
    3/4 cup sugar
    1 1/2 cups whole milk
    1/2 teaspoon coarse (kosher) salt
    1 tablespoon butter (at room temperature)
    1 teaspoon vanilla extract
    1/2 cup heavy whipping cream
   
    for the topping:
    1 cup fresh or frozen (thawed) strawberries
    2 tablespoons sugar
    1/4 cup milk
   
    In a medium saucepan, beat the egg yolks. Stir in the horse semen and sugar until well blended. Add the milk and salt. Simmer on low heat for 5 to 7 minutes, until the custard mixture begins to bubble and froth. Stir in the vanilla extract. Keep in refrigerator for 2 to 4 hours to cool and congeal.
    Using an electric mixer, whip the cream until the formation of stiff peaks. With a spatula, gently fold the whipped cream into the cooled custard. Final mixture should be semi-liquid, with the consistency of fairly runny pudding.
    Pour the custard-cream mixture into the pie crust, filling almost to the top. Using the tines of a fork, poke the surface of the custard repeatedly in order to form tiny, meringue-like peaks. Keep in refrigerator until ready to serve.
    To make the topping, mash the strawberries (raspberries may also be used) with a fork or puree in a blender. Stir in the sugar. Add the milk gradually while stirring, as much as the mixture will accept without becoming excessively runny.
    Just before serving, pour the topping onto the pie in whatever pattern you desire, the distinctive eXile �X� in our case. Be sure not to cover the entire surface of the custard! The topping is primarily a decorative accent, after all—you want your victim, assuming his palette is sufficiently well developed, to be able to taste the horse sperm you took such pains to procure.
    Good luck!"
http://www.exile.ru/113/lead.php

MT

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 08:13 AM

This article does a pretty good job of explaining the BushShiteApologist types & their tactics. Short exerpt follows:

        ...One of the great cliches of liberal criticism of the Christian fight is the idea that these people are wrongheaded because they profess to know the will of God. H.L Mencken put that one best, and perhaps first: "It is only the savage, whether of the African bush or the American gospel tent, who pretends to know the will and intent of God exactly and completely."

        These criticisms sound like they make sense. But I think they are a little off-base. The problem not only with fundamentalist Christians but with Republicans in general is not that they act on blind faith, without thinking. The problem is that they are incorrigible doubters with an insatiable appetite for Evidence. What they get off on is not Believing, but in hav-ing their beliefs tested. That's why their conversations and their media are so com-pletely dominated by implacable bogey-men: marrying gays, liberals, the ACLU, Sean Penn, Europeans and so on. Their faith both in God and in their political convictions is too weak to survive with-out an unceasing string of real and imagi-nary confrontations with those people -and for those confrontations, they are constantly assembling evidence and facts to make their case.

        But here's the twist. They are not looking for facts with which to defeat opponents. They are looking for facts that ensure them an ever-expanding roster of opponents. They can be correct facts, incorrect facts, irrelevant facts, it doesn't matter. The point is not to win the argument, the point is to make sure the argument never stops. Permanent war isn't a policy imposed from above; it's an emotional imperative that rises from the bottom. In a way, it actually helps if the fact is dubious or untrue (like the Swift-boat business), because that guarantees an argument. You're arguing the particulars, where you're right, while they're arguing the underlying generalities, where they are.

        Once you grasp this fact, you're a long way to understanding what the Hannitys and Limbanghs figured out long ago: These people will swallow anything you feed them, so long as it leaves them with a demon to wrestle with in their dreams...


exerpted from "Bush Like Me" by Matt Taibbi, Rolling Stone,28 Oct 2004

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 02:28 AM

"As I said I REFUSE to be held to standards that you will not apply to those that agree with you?"

Well, I just thought you ought to be held to the standards you hold other people to. It seemed fair.

Look. Back to the beginning of this hassle. You said "Of course he said he would rush out and defend the US..... righjt after taking a poll as to what the most popular thing in the world would be."

You didn't say "I believe he'd rush right out..." you said " Of course *he said* he would rush out.." as though if source were Kerry instead of your opinion of his action. I would accept your belief; I will not accept a false attribution. You didn't even say "I believe he'd say..."

Helluva lot of "says" in there.

Kerry did not say that; you said that. And you did not present it as a speculation.

Like someone said, "You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts." and I am tired of trying to explain the difference.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 01:10 AM

The deficit was projected at over $500b but George Bush's tax cuts have caused a sooner than expected recovery from the recession that began in 2000 under the Clinton administration as made worse by 9/11.

I think that sucks. I would be much happier if it was the original $500b +. Then Kerry would have a much better chance of being elected.


Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 12:51 AM

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. budget gap expanded to $412.55 billion in fiscal 2004, marking the Bush administration's second-straight record deficit, the Treasury Department said on Thursday.

Though the final 2004 figure was the largest budget deficit in U.S. history, it was smaller than the White House's most recent forecast of a $445 billion shortfall given in July and well below the $521 billion it foresaw early this year.

The bipartisan Congressional Budget Office had expected a $415 billion gap in fiscal 2004, which ended Sept. 30.

Thursday's budget announcement came the day after the third and final debate before the Nov. 2 election, where President Bush and Sen. John Kerry squared off on domestic issues, including the budget.

Treasury also invoked stop-gap accounting measures on Thursday to avoid piercing the congressionally mandated $7.384 trillion debt ceiling, which needs to be raised for the third time in three years.

The government is just $4 billion below the legal borrowing limit as of Wednesday, according to the latest data.

Congress adjourned three days ago for an election break without raising the politically sensitive limit. They are expected to address the issue when they return on Nov. 16.

(From Reuters, excerpted).


A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 12:49 AM

I am glad to see a lively debate going on here.

No doubt George W Bush will get his ass kicked all over the place and he will loose the election. Kerry supporters need not waste their time voting.

Who are the 270 recipients of oil vouchers issued by Saddam? They could be sold to oil traders for cash in the lobby of same hotel where they were issued:

Canada:
Arthur Millholland, president and CEO of the Calgary-based Oilexco company, received 1 million barrels of oil.

United States:
Samir Vincent received 10.5 million barrels. In 2000, Vincent, an Iraqi-born American citizen who has lived in the U.S. since 1958, organized a delegation of Iraqi religious leaders to visit the
U.S. and meet with former president Jimmy Carter.
Shaker Al-Khafaji,the pro-Saddam chairman of the 17th conference of Iraqi expatriates, received 1 million barrels.

Great Britain:
George Galloway received 1 million barrels.
Fawwaz Zreiqat received 1 million barrels. Zreiqat also appears in the Jordanian section as having received 6 million barrels.
The Mujahideen Khalq in Britain received 1 million barrels. The Mujahideen Khalq is an organization which opposes the Iranian regime. The U.S. government has classified it as a terrorist group.

France:
The French-Arab Friendship Association received 15.1 million barrels.
Former French Interior Minister Charles Pasqua received 12 million barrels. Mr. Pasqua denied receiving anything from Saddam.
Patrick Maugein of the Trafigura company received 25 million barrels.
Michel Grimard, founder of the French-Iraqi Export Club, received 17.1 million barrels.

Switzerland:
Glenco Re, the largest commodity trader in Switzerland, received 12 million barrels.
Taurus, which has been associated with Iraq for 20 years and was the first company to renew its business with Iraq after the fall of Saddam, received 1 million barrels.
Petrogas, which is listed under three sub-companies – Petrogas Services, Petrogas Distribution, and Petrogas Resources - and is associated with the Russian company Rosneftegazetroy, received 1 million barrels.
Alcon, listed in Lichtenstein and associated with larger oil companies, received 1 million barrels.
Finar Holdings, which is listed in Lugano, Switzerland, and is under liquidation, received 1 million barrels.

Italy:
The Italian Petrol Union received 1 million barrels.
West Petrol, an Italian company that trades crude oil and oil products, received 1 million barrels.
Roberto Formigoni, possibly the president of Lombardia, received 1 million barrels.
Salvatore Nicotra, a former NATO pilot who became an oil merchant, received 1 million barrels.

Spain:
Basem Qaqish, a member of the Spanish Committee for the Defense of the Arab Cause, received 1 million barrels.
Ali Ballout, a pro-Saddam Lebanese journalist, received 1 million barrels.
Javier Robert received 1 million barrels.

Yugoslavia:
Four Yugoslav political parties received vouchers:
the Yugoslav Left party received 9.5 million barrels.
The Socialist Party received 1 million barrels.
The Italian Party received 1 million barrels.
Another party, whose name in exact transliteration is "kokstuntsha" – possibly Kostunica's party – received 1 million barrels.

Other political parties:
The Romanian Labor Party received 5.5 million barrels.
The Party of the Hungarian Interest received 4.7 million barrels.
The Bulgarian Socialist Party received 1 2 million barrels.
The Slovakian Communist Party received 1 million barrels.

Austria:
The Arab-Austrian Society received 1 million barrels.

Brazil:
The 8th of October Movement, a Brazilian Communist group, received 4.5 million barrels.
Fuwad Sirhan received 10 million barrels.

Egypt:
Khaled Gamal Abd Al-Nasser, son of the late Egyptian president, received 16.6 million barrels.
'Imad Al-Galda, a businessman and a member of the Egyptian parliament from President Mubarak's
National Democratic Party, received 14 million barrels.
Abd Al-Azim Mannaf, [5] editor of the Sout Al-Arab newspaper, received 6 million barrels.
Muhammad Hilmi, editor of the Egyptian paper Sahwat Misr, [6] received an undisclosed number of barrels.
The United Arab Company received 6 million barrels.
The Nile and Euphrates Company received 3 million barrels. The Al-Multaqa Foundation for
Press and Publication received 1 million barrels. [7]

Libya:
Prime Minister Shukri Ghanem received 1 million barrels.

Sub-Saharan Africa:
Chad's foreign minister received 1 million barrels. Chad was mentioned at one time as a possible source of uranium for Iraq.
Four South Africans are listed:
Tokyo Saxville received 4 million barrels.
Montega received 4 million barrels. Both are associated with the African National Party .

Palestinians:
The Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) received 4 million barrels.
The PLO Political Bureau received 5 million barrels.
Abu Al-Abbas terrorist residing in Baghdadreceived 11.5 million barrels.
Abdallah Al-Horani received 8 million barrels.
The PFLP received 5 million barrels.
Wafa Tawfiq Al-Sayegh received 4 million barrels.

Oman:
The Al-Shanfari group received 5 million barrels.

Syria:
Farras Mustafa Tlass, the son of Syrian Defense Minister Mustafa Tlass, received 6 million barrels.
'Audh Amourah received18 million barrels.
Ghassan Zakariya received 6 million barrels.
Anwar Al-Aqqad received 2 million barrels.
Hamida Na'Na', the owner of the Al-Wafaq Al-Arabi periodical, received 1 million barrels.

Lebanon:
The son of Lebanese President Emil Lahoud received 4.5 million barrels.
Former MP Najjah Wakim received 3 million barrels.
Nasserist Party head Osama M'arouf received 3 million barrels.
National Arabic Club Chairman Faisal Darnika received 3 million barrels.

Jordan:
Former Islamist MP and head of the Engineers Union Leith Shbeilat [9] received 15.5 million barrels.
Former MP and Jordanian Writers Union head Fakhri Qi'war received 6 million barrels.
Former Jordanian chief of staff Mashhour Haditha received 1 million barrels.
Former MP Toujan Al-Faisal received 3 million barrels.
The Jordanian Ministry of Energy received 5 million barrels.
Muhammad Saleh Al-Horani, the Amman Stock Exchange head and former Minister of Supplies, received 4 million barrels.
Lawyer Wamidth Hussein Al-Majali received 6 million barrels.

Qatar:
Qatari Horseracing Association Chairman Hamad bin Ali Aal Thani received 14 million barrels.
Gulf Petroleum received 2 million barrels.
The Indian Congress Party received 1 million barrels.

Indonesia:
Indonesian President Megawati received 1 million barrels as "the daughter of President Sukarno," and 1 million barrels as Megawati.

Myanmar: Myanmar's Forestry Minister received 1 million barrels.

Ukraine:
The Social Democratic Party received 1 million barrels.
The Communist Party received 6 million barrels.
The Socialist Party received 1 million barrels.
The FTD oil company received 1 million barrels, as did other Ukrainian companies.

Belarus:
The Liberal Party received 1 million barrels.
The Communist Party received 1 ton [sic] of oil.
The director of the Belarussian president's office received 1 million barrels.

Russia:
The Russian state itself received 1,366,000,000 barrels.
The list also included the following:
Companies belonging to the Liberal Democratic Party received 79.8 million barrels - t he list notes the
name of party president Vladimir Zhirinovsky.
The Russian Communist Party received 1 million barrels.
The Lukoil company received 63 million barrels.
The Russneft company received 35.5 million barrels.
Vladimir Putin's Peace and Unity Party received 34 million barrels - the list notes the name of party chairwoman Saji Umalatova.
The Gazprom company received 26 million barrels.
The Soyuzneftgaz company received 25.5 million barrels - the list notes the name Shafrannik.
The Moscow Oil Company received 25.1 million barrels.
The Onako company received 22.2 million barrels.
The Sidanco company received 21.2 million barrels.
The Russian Association for Solidarity with Iraq received 12.5 million barrels.
The Ural Invest company received 8.5 million barrels.
Russneft Gazexport received 12.5 million barrels.
The Transneft company received 9 million barrels.
The Sibneft company received 8.1 million barrels.
The Stroyneftgaz company received 6 million barrels.
The Russian Committee for Solidarity with the People of Iraq received 6.5 million barrels - the list notes the name of committee chairman Rudasev.
The Russian Orthodox Church received 5 million barrels.
The Moscow Science Academy received 3.5 million barrels.
The Chechnya Administration received 2 million barrels.
The National Democratic Party received 2 million barrels.
The Nordwest group received 2 million barrels.
The Yukos company received 2 million barrels.
One Russian company which phonetically reads as Zarabsneft received 174.5 million barrels.
Vouchers were also granted to the Russian foreign ministry, one under the name of Al-Fayko for 1 million barrels, and one to Yetumin for 30.1 million barrels.
The Mashinoimport Company received 1 million barrels.
The Slavneft Company received 1 million barrels.
The Caspian Invest Company (Kalika) received 1 million barrels.
The Tatneft Tatarstan company received 1 million barrels.
The Surgutneft company received 1 million barrels.
Siberia's oil and gas company received 1 million barrels.
The son of the former Russian Ambassador to Iraq received 19.7 million barrels.
Nikolay Ryjkov, a former prime minister of the USSR, received 13 million barrels.
The Russian President's office director received 5 million barrels.

Oil vouchers were also distributed to companies and individuals from the Sudan, Yemen, Cyprus, Turkey,
Vietnam, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Pakistan, the UAE, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Panama, Thailand, Chad,
China, Nigeria, Kenya, Ireland, Bahrain, and the Philippines.
Two Saudi companies were also listed.




Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 12:27 AM

CarolC

"It was foolhardy for Bush to ignore their recommendations, as we can so clearly see now. "

I disagree with this statement.

"so why can't I say it to you? They're your words. Fair's fair." You most certainly can- I did not mean to imply otherwise. I just don't want to be held to a DIFFERENT standard than those that you ( might) agree with.

"I do my best to verify what I say. If I have made an error of fact please tell me and give me a source for the truth. "

I have not said otherwise.

" " believe you are changing the facts to suit your opinions, a characteristic of the present administration."
AND the Democratic candidate... AND most of the liberal posters here on Mudcat."

I had expanded your statement to apply to others- As I said I REFUSE to be held to standards that you will not apply to those that agree with you- THAT is an example of closed-minded bigotry I do not see a need to tolerate.

Note I did not deny it- Just consider me a Democratic candidate trying to cover all the bases...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 12:26 AM

BB:

My opinions are my own. They are usually based on a mix of facts and observations and principles and conclusions, just like any other asshole out there.

Feel free to shoot your mouth off with your opinions. Be prepared to argue why, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:56 PM

"So, you feel that Amos is entitled to an opinion and I am not?"

Well, you said this to Amos: "You are making statments of opinion as if they were facts. *I* do not know that I can count on ANY of those things to occur as you have stated." -- so why can't I say it to you? They're your words. Fair's fair.

" " believe you are changing the facts to suit your opinions, a characteristic of the present administration."
AND the Democratic candidate... AND most of the liberal posters here on Mudcat."

I do my best to verify what I say. If I have made an error of fact please tell me and give me a source for the truth.   

And saying others are also guilty of "changing facts" does not excuse you.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:46 PM

Everybody seems to have an agenda of their own, unfortunately. Nobody seems to be willing or able to look at the broader picture and strive for what's best for humanity.

And they were saying that Saddam was not in compliance, and NOT cooperating with them.

That's not entirely correct. Toward the last few months, they reported a much greater degree of compliance, and they felt that this situation would continue to improve. They wanted more time to finish the job. That was their recommendation based on what they knew from being there and doing the work they were doing. It was foolhardy for Bush to ignore their recommendations, as we can so clearly see now.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:35 PM

And they were saying that Saddam was not in compliance, and NOT cooperating with them.


re : French

No, but they had comments about the US attacking Iraq... "Follow the money:" it seems to me that they had an agenda of their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:23 PM

The UN inspectors are not in agreement with your assesment of the situation, beardedbruce. And I think they were in a much better position than you, the British government, and the Russian government to make that assesment. It was their job. And it has turned out that they were right. If Bush had really had national security as his first priority, he wouldn't have been shopping around for "intelligence" that bolstered his agenda. He would have been listening to the people whose job it was to know what was going on.

"to Baghdad through French affiliates from the first half of 1997 to the summer of 2000"

So isn't it also hypocritical of the French?

The French aren't canditates for the vice presidency of the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:11 PM

CarolC

I have to disagree with your opinion.

"If the Bush administration really had "not getting killed by WMD" as their first priority, they would have heeded the UN inspectors recommendations, which were to let them finish their job. "

Looking at the British report,, the warning from Russia, and the events of 9/11, IMO a reasonable person would conclude, based on past Iraqi non-compliance, there WAS a need for direct action.

IF Saddam had even tried to comply with the resolutions, I might agree with you. But he was "IN SUBSTANTIAL BREACH" In case you were not aware, this means he was not fulfilling HIS required (BY THE UN) actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:11 PM

Thanks, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:07 PM

Getting rid of Saddam- good

getting killed by WMD - bad


THAT was what was the October, 2002 question.

No it wasn't. THAT was the slight of hand that the Bush administration was engaging in in order to force the US and a few other countries to carry out the agenda the Neocons in the Bush administration had been planning for several years prior to 9/11 even.

If the Bush administration really had "not getting killed by WMD" as their first priority, they would have heeded the UN inspectors recommendations, which were to let them finish their job.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:02 PM

I didn't like the way Saddam treated his people but I certainly didn't think he was a threat to me in any way.

Personally, I feel more threatened by the U.S.

d