BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: GUEST,Sceptic
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 06:36 PM

Larry,

Perhaps you can provide references (preferably links) to some of this press coverage that you claim is quoting you. Searches on Google, Yahoo News, the NY Times and other major newspapers show no hits combining "Irish Travelers" with "Otway".

All I can find is your sayso in the Mudcat Forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 06:23 PM

Hi BJ. Actually, I have been doing a better joh with the press. Every newspaper that quoted me, and quite a few did, reported favorably about the Travellers. The fact that NBC cut me, and Dr. Mari Beth Andereck after the intitial interview I think shows their bias. But, the rest who called, quoted me in generally favorable pieces. Thanks for the interest..... if you'd like I can email you some of the press coverage. As far as the majority here, well, there is a small subset of catters on this particular thread. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: GUEST,The Great American Public
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 06:20 PM

Hey BJ,

Except for those who look in at Mudcat, none of us in the Great American Public has heard of Larry or his crusade to convince Mudcatters that Ms. Toogood is a victim of discrimination rather than a child abuser.

It's the same with his music. Does anyone know anyone who's not a Mudcatter who's a fan of Sorcha Dorcha?

That reminds me. Remember a few months back Larry was complaining that there were conspiracies preventing him from getting gigs. And then there was the time Larry was complaining that he couldn't keep his band together because everone in the band didn't want to rehearse with him.

Is there a pattern here? I remember a guy in school who was always right and everybody else was always wrong. Not that I think of it, his name was "Larry."

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 05:41 PM

Larry, you're presenting your case in this forum to people who, by and large, know and admire you for your musical talent, your generosity and your knowledge. People who like you, and who have been bending over backwards for a long time now to be as fair to you as possible. People who acknowledge that Travellers of whatever race suffer from discrimination and who despise that discrimination. Yet I think it's fair to say that you have failed to convince the majority here that discrimination is a factor in this case, and that seems to have been your main, if not only, argument. I hope you're doing a better job of convincing the great American public.

BJ

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 04:54 PM

Hi Nerd... a note on your question about the Rom who calls Madalyne's family Roma. They are. They are both Romanichal and Irish Travellers by marriage. Now, Romanichals are in fact Roma, the language they speak has many common words and a common root, and they are in fact part of the same diaspora. Irish Travellers, as is seen in Madalynne's family, are a decendant culture, a result of both cultural drift and intermarriage.
As to being a PR guy... no, the family asked me to use my knowlege of the community to speak to the racisim in the press, and in the statements of the State, early in the case. Now, if in fact, my making experts available has had an effect in illustrating some issues to the court through the press, great, if the Judge was remarkably inlighted all by himself, even better - I don't forsee a day in the immidiate future when Travellers will not need the small number of us, they have trusted to speak on their behalf, but it is not PR, it is decemination of knowlege. Everything I present the press, I give direction to footnoted articles, by colleagues, something the detractors of Traveller culture do not do.
Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: Nerd
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 04:32 PM

Good points Ebarnacle. In fact, (to bring this back to folk music), in some blood-libel songs where the Jew is the culprit (like Little Sir Hugh), when times change the Gypsy becomes the culprit instead.

One thing that confused me: in one of the articles larry cited above, the author writes about what is happening to Madelyne Toogood "just because she is Rom." But she is not Rom, in fact, she's an Irish Traveller. This is an example of a writer with an axe to grind being a bit loose on the details in order to prove her point, I think. She also says that if Madelyne were French, we would not be hearing about how the French beat their children, so the media harping on Roma is an example of prejudice. Now, I've seen literally NO article claiming that beating children is a cultural attribute of Romanies, or in fact of Irish Travellers. So again, the writer's setting up straw man arguments.

What the newspapers ARE reporting is that irish Travellers are a fairly secretive, nomadic culture, and that some of them are involved in home-repair scams. As I've said, this is all true. While it is an example of prejudice to point it out, as it would be to say "some blacks are muggers," or "some jews are cheap bastards," it's nothing you can cry libel over.

Finally, none of this has much bearing on the legal case, which, as we've seen, seems not be succumbing to pejudice at all. So what it boils down to for me is that this is a PR issue for the community, and Larry's their PR guy on Mudcat. Since I sympathize with the community, I understand Larry's wish to present them in a good light. But I don't think the legal system needs much help in this case, at least not so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 03:05 PM

As a Jew, I can certainly empathize with some of the statements here.

First, the libel about "the gypsies will take you if you are not good" is very similar to the blood libel [The Jews will take you if you are not good. They will use your blood to make their matzos.] originally perpetrated by the participants in the first crusade and since to justify the murder of Jews. As with many of these libels, there was never a documentable case of the libel being true. It was a clear case of blaming the victim.

Second, the generic damnation of Gypsies as dishonest is similar to the [now fading somewhat] characterisation of Jews in the early parts of the last century. Even the language is similar.

Third, as with many ethnic groups, both Romany and Jews still have an solid element of "What will the outsiders (non-members of this group) think about all of us because of the actions of a few of us." I know that I still feel very uncomfortable when I hear or read of a Jewish landlord or businessman or other person being charged with some crime, especially if it is one that fits the stereotype.

Image is very important.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 01:35 PM

I'm sorry, for I see now that the original AP article may not have been the newspaper article Larry was citing from. So the misrepresentation may have been the work of a journalist and not of Larry. I apologise if that is the case.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 01:28 PM

Thanks, Wolfgang. Please note, all, that the article Larry cited from is dated Tuesday October 8, while custody arrangements for Martha Toogood were still being deliberated. Madelyn's mother was awarded long-term custody of Martha the next day, Wednesday October 9. Note also that, in that article, it also says, " 'The court will ask the parents whether they want to admit or whether they want to deny the allegations in the petition,'said Michael Gotsch, an attorney for the Office of Family and Children. If the parents admit to the charge, the court will set a date for an order outlining steps the parents will need to take to try to regain custody, Gotsch said. If they deny the allegations, a trial on the allegations will be held."   So the court has certainly considered the possibility of eventually returning Martha to the custody of John and Madelyne Toogood.

This admission or denial of the allegations of the petition was to have happened at the hearing on October 9. Can anyone tell us (or link us to an article telling us) whether Madelyne Toogood admitted to or denied the allegations?

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 01:17 PM

Reading the original of that article is interesting for another detail from above:

The petition says the child, Martha Toogood, told authorities that her mother hit her with an ''open
fist'' and pulled on her pigtails

Larry, when citing that (10 Oct 02 - 07:12 AM) left away the quotation marks and called it 'New speak' as if the writer had invented the words 'open fist'. Reading the article shows that the writer actually only cited and put the words in question in quotation marks to show that these were not his own words.

Larry, if you misrepresent and overstate this way in a case where we can check it, why should we believe what you say when we can't check it.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 12:57 PM

The article Larry cited from´

Time Magazin article about 'wisians'

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 12:47 PM

Larry: Where did the article you posted on 15 Oct 02 - 07:46 AM come from? I couldn't find any such article with a Google-search.

You posted: "A quote from you, Sharon...'I'm a white Anglo-Saxon, not a member of an ethnic culture!'... hmmm." I posted that on 10 Oct 02 - 05:05 PM as part of an attempt to point out the fallacy of using the excuse of a "cultural naming tradition" for submitting aliases to police when one is arrested. First you used that statement to tell me that I can't possibly understand prejudice because I'm white, and now you're using it to tell me... what, exactly? What's your point?

As far as your post of 14 Oct 02 - 07:34 PM (" 'What else do I need to say about my family before Larry's convinced that I wasn't raised in an ivory tower?' ... perhaps understanding that prejudice exists for others?") is concerned, of course I understand that prejudice exists for others. What I've been trying to say in many posts to this thread is that prejudice against a person is no excuse for that person to cry foul when he or she is arrested, convicted and punished for his or her criminal activity. My family members could easily have considered themselves victims of prejudice but they have not. They could have reacted to prejudice by victimizing others but they did not. They could have engaged in home-repair scams or shoplifting scams to "achieve" what the rich folks down the street "enjoy" but they did not. Instead, they made an honest living. So I have sympathy and understanding for others who experience prejudice, but I have no sympathy or understanding for those who try to blame their own bad behavior – and the resultant distrust of those individuals – on prejudice. Likewise, I have no sympathy or understanding for those who attempt to gain preferential treatment – by police, by the court system, by child protective services, by any local, state or federal authority – because of their ethnic origin, no matter what that origin is. Equal treatment, yes. Preferential treatment, no.

Now, as others have pointed out on this thread, legal authorities in Indiana have given no indication that they are treating the Madelyn Toogood battery case any differently than such cases would be handled for anyone else with the same criminal record that Madelyn has, nor that they are treating the Martha Toogood custody case any differently than such cases would be handled for anyone else with the same criminal records that her parents and other relatives have. Ethnic prejudice simply is not a factor here. Even the article you posted on 15 Oct 02 - 07:46 AM, Larry, does not mention Toogood's ethnicity, only the investigation into the incident on September 13th and the conflicting accounts of the physical and emotional harm it may have caused. For the authorities NOT to have considered indefinite custody would have been irresponsible of them.

As for the investigation of the doctor in New Jersey, it was begun because he had his photos of Martha Toogood (taken of her in the nude) developed at a photo lab which, of course, has to report to authorities when anyone gives them nude photos of children to be developed. The authorities were making sure that the photos were not child pornography. Again, no ethnic prejudice involved.

Yes, absolutely the media "falls into stereotypical reporting" as Ron says, and that should not be tolerated, but there's no reason to assume that authorities are swayed in any way by it or to assume that authorities are handling a criminal case with prejudice simply because the case involves an Irish Traveler. To assume such a thing is to be prejudiced oneself!

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 12:30 PM

Larry, again you insist that anyone that doesn't agree with you is racist and ignorant.

That, my friend, is prejudice in the classic sense. Without knowing me, my ethinicity, what prejudice I may or may not have experienced, you assume that I am complicit with the type of people that slaughtered Jews, Romani, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, and anyone else that was different.

You are unlikely to win allies by not only ignoring the feelings and opinions of those outside your group, but insulting them as well. If your goal is to end prejudice -- as I think it is -- then maybe you need to spend a little less time pointing fingers and a little more time trying to be inclusive. Because whether someone is a Traveller or not, or someone agrees with you 100%, that doesn't mean they don't have something valid to say.

"Go away, you're not a Traveller and you don't understand," is not an attitude that will achieve your goals.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 11:29 AM

Ok Larry, I guess we disagree on what is "norm". I respect your statements but I have read and heard the opposite about placement of a child in cases where there is a danger of flight. You may call it a decision based on prejudice against Travelers, but it appears that the court was trying to insure the child would remain safe. You may not agree with the rationale, but I don't think their decision was based on prejudice. Again it is differing opinions on proper procedure. Not everyone is raised in the same household with the same rules and the same set of values. By that I don't mean to insinuate that one standard is better than another - just different. Not everyone follows the preachings of Dr. Spock or other experts. Again, everyone has passionate OPINIONS on what is right in this case. Ultimately none of us will be the judge or jury - and perhaps that is fortunate.

I am glad that we agree about the videotape evidence. I don't know if you mis-read my comment, but I have said previously that people can't believe everything they THINK they see on a videotape.

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 10:22 AM

OK Ron... back to square one. First of all, it is a genuine rarity, that a child is out placed when a member of a suspect class for discrimination, this has been the norm for most states I know of, for quite a long time here. Nor is it normal to investigate doctors who do forsensic work in a child abuse case when the only evidence is that they took photos, for a week after they knew he was a doctor they kept the case open. Nor is it common that defining elements of a people's culture are used as a reason a state gives for saying that an ethnic community are unfit to raise their children (the State of Indiana said they would not turn over the child to a nomadic Traveller). ... have to run, important phone call, I will be back to this... also remember that seeing something on video is not proof of much, which is why forensic evidence is done to suppliment, gotta run, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 09:55 AM

Larry, Your points about prejudice are well taken. I sincerely thank you for helping to bring this to light.   The media falls into stereotypical reporting - "facts" based on prevailing attitudes instead of the truth. The article you posted from Dissident Voice really gives light to a side of the Travelers that we haven't heard in this forum.

However, again, you haven't been able to make a convincing arguement as to how and why prejudice have influenced this specific case. I'm not saying your wrong, but if I were in a jury I would not feel that you have made a strong case. For every claim that you make that Toogood was treated differently, there are examples that this is the norm for any case of suspected child abuse. You might be very well right, and I am waiting to hear more about this and continue to hope that everything works out for both mother, child and the Traveler community.

Likewise there are a number of people who are up in arms about the abuse of the child and strongly voice their opinions about what should be done.   NONE of us can be sure of what occured and what damage (if any) has been done to the child and mother. While the videotape is pretty damning, a close inspection produces as many questions as it does answers.   It is a natural feeling to protect the child. No child should be submitted to abuse and a parent who truly hurts a child deserves to punished to the full extent of the law.

Let's just remember that we are only voiceing opinions. The facts will come out.

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 08:48 AM

Right you are Bagpuss. I was quoting the New York Times, also a wee error, after Laten Americans, comes Asian Indians, Filipinos, American Indians then Armenians, also after Greeks, it should read White South Africans... Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: Bagpuss
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 07:54 AM

Just a pedantic aside - if you can eat it, drink it or mend your pants with it, then it is Scotch. otherwise it is *Scottish* or *Scots*.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 07:46 AM

Well, lets start with crying wolf...

Indiana Seeks Indefinite Custody Of Martha Toogood
Authorities Report On Interviews With Child Seen In Videotaped Beating

POSTED: 6:51 a.m. CDT October 8, 2002
UPDATED: 7:34 a.m. CDT October 8, 2002

SOUTH BEND, Ind. -- The state is seeking indefinite custody of a four-year-old girl whose mother is accused of felony battery after a video camera caught her hitting the child.

According to authorities, Martha Toogood -- the girl in the video -- told them her mother, Madelyne Toogood, hit her with an open fist and pulled on her pigtails on Sept. 13, in the parking lot outside a Kohl's department store Mishawaka.

Doctors who examined the girl eight days later said they did not see any bruises or marks on her.

The petition filed by authorities claims Martha said there was a mark earlier from where her mother had hit her on her back.

The state Office of Family and Children said the girl was caused physical and emotional distress because of what her mother did to her.

A hearing on the petition seeking indefinite custody is scheduled for Wednesday.

Now, luckly, this outragious proposal was not accepted by the judge. But, this was the approach of the state of Indiana for the best part of the month.

As to me becoming less than sensitive to the feelings of folks who don't see prejudice here... let's look at a few issues. I don't fault anyone for unconcious racisim. Some folks exihibited unconcious racism in their posts about Gypsies here. However, the more that one denies that there is a problem the more I feel the word unconcious is appropriate. Appathetic neighbors accepted without quesition the round up of my mother's family a few short years before I was born. They did not care as the ashes of my flesh and blood drifted down like snow that August night, from the high chimneys of Auswitz Berganbelsen. In the sorrow and rage in every heart wherein flows Roma blood, being snide is the gentlest reaction we can summon up. If some can't deal with it, so be it.

Can't see the racism? Try begining here, the New York Times over a span of 25 years did a study of discrimination against the varrious ethnic populations of the US. Let's have a look, shall we?

Top of the list, most trusted and loved we find... hmmmm... Native White Americans, My, my my... fancy that! Next, people of the ethnic community of the respondant. (Oh....Ok....), British, Protestant, Catholics, French (doing well so far, eh?) Irish, Swdes, Austrains, Dutch, Norwegians, Scotch, Germans, Southerners, Italians, Danes, French Canadians, Japanese, Jews, People of Foreign Anscestory, Finns, 1st generation immigrants, Mormons, Greeks, White South Americans, Chinese, Hungarians, Czechs, Poles, Russians, Isrealis, Argentineans, Latein Americans, Asian Americans, Negros (their language, not mine), Koreans, Slavs, Wisians, Africans Blacks, Arabs, West Indian Blacks, Mexicans, Guatemalans, Vietnamese, Nicaraguans, Haitians, Puerto Ricans, Cubans Refugees, Iranians, and .... .... Gypsies. Dead last, evan below Wisians, a made up test group.

Without appology, your Wisian Friend (I just climbed five degrees up in most people's esteem),

Larry

italics and line breaks added by mudelf ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: NicoleC
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 09:40 PM

Larry, I thought your comments about race were rather condescending and snide, too. Just because someone doesn't share your viewpoint about this case doesn't mean they don't understand it and certainly doesn't mean they're an oblivious white person.

I'm sorry, but we can't correct the history of discrimination by making Martha potentially pay a huge price with her physical and mental health, and in the case of some kinds of abuse, her life. Child abuse must be investigated, for the welfare of the child, to make sure she's not in danger. It does nothing to help the Traveller community if the legal system and CPS fails for the sake of an ethnic issue. The article you posted is harping on about how evil the government is for taking the child away from an abusive parent and giving it to white people, when, indeed, that didn't happen and the child is with her family.

I'm reminded of the fable of the boy who cried "wolf." I'm trying REALLY hard not to develop the attitude that this is a non-existent problem because a few people are trying to turn a non-ethnic issue in a major race dispute. It's a disservice to the Traveller community to minimize real prejudicial events with this kind of case. Mrs. Toogood does not make a good ambassador for her ethnic group.

I'm sorry if anyone expected quality journalism out of "Dateline;" it wouldn't be from past performance. It was bound to happen that one of the tabloid shows would grab the race issue and make the opposite mountain from the mole-hill. Whatever the media is saying, I've seen no evidence that the legal authorities involved in the case have done anything except follow the law to the letter.

And that, in the end, is the issue here, is it not? That Martha is safe and Madelyne is prosecuted (or not) fairly?

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 07:42 PM

This may help you understand... Larry

DISSIDENT VOICE
www.dissidentvoice.org
October 11, 2002

______________________________

Stealing Gypsy Children in America
by Galina Trefil
Dissident Voice
October 11, 2002
______________________________


During the 18th century, the Moravian government used to send soldiers and empty carts into the Romani (Gypsy) settlements. The soldiers grabbed the Romani youngsters, and when the carts were full of screaming, crying children, they greeted the protesting parents with a cat-of-nine-tails or worse. Sometimes the parents, knowing they would probably never see their children again, committed suicide on the spot.

The children were forced into homes run by White families to whom the government paid small monthly sums. Usually, due to the abuse in these homes, the children ran away, desperately trying to relocate their parents.

My ancestor, Martin Starsi Trefil, was a nomadic Rom during that time. Six of his children were stolen away in those governmental carts. Whether Martin Mladsi Trefil's five sisters ran away, I do not know, but none were ever heard from again. He himself was never again permitted to live with his parents.

Such children were forbidden to speak Romani, the Hindi-based language of their ancestors, so they were completely unable to live their lives in accordance to romaniya (the Romani ethical principals). This made my forcibly settled ancestors seem more like Gadje, not Romani: They couldn't speak their own language and didn't even know their own cultural rules, so they couldn't act in accordance to the marime (cleanliness) laws.

All they knew was that they were Gypsy children stolen from their parents and their heritage, and were raised in a culture which called them pick-pockets, cannibals, and, ironically, stealers of children!

In the name of my ancestors, I have been outraged at the media's handling of the case of Madelyn Toogood. Ever since Mrs. Toogood was filmed beating her young daughter, I have heard not-so-subtle innuendoes in the news against the Romani people, because Mrs. Toogood happens to be Rom. My people are once more referred to as evil, charlatans, pick-pockets, and child-thieves!

To the non-Romani community, I wish to clarify that beating children is not part of our culture. A Romani proverb is "You don't bring children up by beating them, but rather by using words." To us, there is nothing as important having happy, healthy children, so when discipline is necessary, we discipline with words, not slaps.

Beating children is not in league with romaniya. I would be surprised if her entire tribe isn't furious with her. She committed a crime, and she drew attention to our community. As every "Gypsy" knows, if one of us does something wrong, all of us will be blamed for it.

And we are being blamed for it, and I charge that we, the Roma, are the last ethnic minority in this country that the press is still allowed to freely denigrate. If Madelyn Toogood were French, would I be hearing that French people are abusive towards children? I doubt it!

Would news reporters dare make inferences in regard to African Americans if Madelyn Toogood had been one? Would they dare bring up her ethnic background if she were African or Native American, a Jew, Asian, Hispanic, or any other more-widely recognized minority? Perhaps not, because it would not have been "politically correct."

What most concerns me is that I keep hearing that little Martha is going to be wrenched away from her family and placed with White foster parents.

Whereas I doubt Madelyn Toogood is a fit parent; still, she does have a large extended family, members of which are willing to take Martha.

Martha Toogood has the right to be raised in the culture of her ancestors.

If she is given to White foster parents, how is this country's government better than the one that stole my ancestor and his five sisters from his parents? Is this 21st-century America or might we just as well be back in 18th-century Moravia?

If our government can't guarantee she'll be given White foster parents who will teach her how to hold her chin up and say, "I am a Romani Gypsy and I am proud of it," then the government has no business absconding with her.

How many Gadje families could supply enough Romani culture and history to give her an adequate, positive self-image? How will Martha Toogood be able to raise her head in a world that identifies "Gypsies" as criminals? Will her new-found White foster parents teach her about the centuries of slavery and persecution that the Roma have endured ever since we entered Europe from India? Will she be given Romani role-models such as Irina Botezata, the Romanian Gypsy slave who became a princess; actors and artists such as Bob Hoskins, Yul Brynner, Charlie Chaplin, Rita Hayworth, Django Reinhardt, the Polish poetess Papuzsa, and Mother Theresa?

In summation, I should like to clarify three things to people interested in the case. First, we Romani love our children. We do not beat them or hurt them and those among us who do are not acting in accordance with our culture. They shame us. Second, bringing ethnicity into the situation is not ethical. If ethnicity had not been a factor, how would we spectators have known that the Toogoods are Gypsies? Third, for the love of that child, do not steal her from her culture!   She has a right to know her origins, and I, as a descendant of great-grandparents who fled the persecution of the Czech Republic as dark-skinned Gypsies, would really like to believe that my ancestors found a country that, unlike the one in which they were born, does not steal Gypsy children.

___________________________________________

format edited by mudelf ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 07:34 PM

What else do I need to say about my family before Larry's convinced that I wasn't raised in an ivory tower? ... perhaps understanding that prejudice exists for others? Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 07:22 PM

A quote from you, Sharon..." I'm a white Anglo-Saxon, not a member of an ethnic culture!"... hmmm. Cheers all, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 06:14 PM

Here is the transcript of the segment on Irish Travelers from the "Dateline NBC" television program to which Larry refers: http://www.msnbc.com/news/820204.asp

While it is true that, in this segment, Dateline "did not use a single expert to speak on behalf of Travellers" as Larry says, many of the statements Larry has made in his last two posts are disputable and some are downright incorrect.

If by "the Wanda story" Larry means her attempted scam at Walt Disney World, that scam was perpetrated on October 31, 1992 so that story is not two decades old... only one! According to Dateline, Wanda also admits to having had "28 aliases, running repair scams, [and] shoplifting" so she did, in fact, have a crime "spree"; the attempted scam of Disney was simply the most famous (or, more accurately, infamous) of her crimes.

Larry says that Wanda's story details "the only really bad events" investigated and reported by Dateline, yet Dateline reports this of Madelyne Toogood's family: "Her husband's grandfather killed another Traveler. One brother-in-law was convicted of swindling more than $100,000, and another skipped out on an assault charge." Since when are murder and assault not "really bad events"??

Larry says that "[John Toogood] has a single felony conviction of overcharging on a job. He plead[ed] guilty and paid restitution to an old woman he charged $7,000 dollars for home repair work." There's no indication from the Dateline report that that repair work was ever done; was it? If so, was it done properly? The conviction was for theft (theft by deception? theft of services?), and the report states that Toogood "paid back the stolen money". Without knowing more about the charges brought against Toogood and the reasons for those charges, I don't think we can assume this to be a case that should have been settled in small claims court rather than with a guilty plea to a criminal felony charge.

Was this the charge made in Pennsylvania, or the one in Ohio (and were there felony charges and convictions in both cases?)? I ask because, in PA, small claims court handles civil disputes involving no more than $8,000 (and if prosecution was seeking pain-and-suffering payment or other fees, the dispute could have topped $8,000 – and if there were criminal charges, then they could not have been heard in a small claims court). In Ohio, only civil actions for the recovery of money in the amount of $3,000 or less can be considered in small claims court. This information was obtained from these two sites: http://www.pennsylvanialawonline.com/smallclaims/smallpa.htm and http://www.ag.state.oh.us/agpubs/smclaims.htm

As much as Larry would like to downplay Toogood's actions by sarcastically calling them "wretched 'crimes' " and putting "crimes of fraud" in quotation marks as if they weren't really crimes, they were. It doesn't matter whether or not Toogood's crimes rise to the level of Al Capone's; theft by deception is still theft. Where's the supposed prejudice in seeing theft as theft without regard to ethnic origin?

I do see prejudice, however, in Larry's statement to me that, because I'm white, he assumes I've never been in a "dark and hopeless place" where I've experienced discrimination of any kind. I guess he's never heard of discrimination based on gender, or socioeconomic position, or age, or body weight, or medical condition. With regard to ethnic origin, though, I'm told I'm English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, French and German, and I don't even know the ethnic origin of my father's father since he was a bigamist and no one in the family talks about him; so perhaps "Anglo-Saxon" doesn't accurately describe me. I do know that my mother looked dark enough that city bus drivers used to give her dirty looks because she didn't sit in the back of the bus and they weren't sure enough of her ethnic origin to order her there. And my father, born in 1913, certainly experienced discrimination as an "illegitimate child". What else do I need to say about my family before Larry's convinced that I wasn't raised in an ivory tower? Maybe I should show him a picture of my Italian-American cousin's Italian-African-Haitian-American child.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 10:00 AM

By the way, we did also see an example of the wretched "crimes" of Mr. Toogood on Dateline. After a nation wide search they came up with one of his "crimes of fraud". According to their informant, Johnney gave him a greatp price to put down asfault on his driveway. He complained that the black top is thinner than he promiced. Wow, Al Capone is reborn. They say he is guilty of nine civil and criminal wrong doings. Yes, he has a single felony conviction of overcharging on a job. He plead guilty and paid restitution to an old woman he charged $7,000 dollars for home repair work. Hmmmm. I have worked with small contractors in New York who have overcharged me every once and awhile, I have never seen a felony come out of an overcharge on a 7,000 job except in cases involving Travellers. I have seen lots of small claimes (think how much of 7,000 is over and how much charge) or civil suit. Let's face it, it takes a lot less effort to see the prejudice against Travellers than to see them as criminals. Dateline, as per the last seven years did not use a single expert to speak on behalf of Travellers in spite of doing pre-air interviews with me, for example. Well, there you go, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 10:29 PM

Well said CB: Note, they say they have been investigating "these strange people" for seven years and the only really bad events are from their primary informant, Wanda Normile, who any time anything about Travellers happens they have to pull out the Wanda story again, now alomst two decades old... some crime spree. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 09:57 PM

Just watched and taped the Dateline bit on the travellers. Even I could see that Lea Thompson has her own agenda in this. There was nothing of substance, a great deal of nudge, nudge, wink, wink and obviously a pathetic attempt to impress us with their (Dateline) grasp of a "little known society" a "secret society" of "thieves and con artists". What a crock of fetid dingo kidnies!

Lets hope they never turn their baleful gaze upon Northern Ireland.

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 06:34 PM

"Perhaps Travelers and Gypsies/Romas need to be better educated about the legal system so that they don't enter guilty pleas for things they have not done – and learn how to work within the legal system to obtain effective defense against false charges "
Where can I begin to educate you, my dear friend. Perhaps you have read parting the waters? Good start. It takes a near miracle to begin a civil rights movement. One must begin with the expectation of rights. The great question for all civil rights workers is how to begin to foster that expectation. You mention that you are an Anglo Saxon American. Well, much of knowing a world without an expectation of rights is hidden from you, it is experiencial. One has to walk in dark and hopeless places to understand. I have, and maybe that is why you and I don't understand each other. Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 05:56 PM

Larry: Actually, the political agenda to which I referred has to do with what I've read in Faith and Practice about opposition to incarceration and retributive punishment and capital punishment, about civil disobedience, that sort of political-issue stance. I don't disagree with everything it has to say about personal-relationship issues, however. Still, as I say, I don't want others to see me being called a Friend and mistakenly assume from that that I agree with everything Faith and Practice says Friends are to feel about political issues, when in fact I do not. Am I being any clearer this time (I hope)?

For instance, when it comes to stopping folks from hurting one another, I think prison is an acceptable option for stopping people who have hurt other people by breaking certain laws. I've read that John Toogood has been convicted of hurting people by scamming them out of their money in Philadelphia PA and Akron Ohio. If he's convicted of this latest charge of scamming in Montana and sentenced to prison to deter him from scamming again, at least while he's in jail, I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing.

I know that you've said, Larry, that Travelers plead guilty to charges like these when they're innocent of those charges, but (a) I have trouble believing that's as prevalent as you make it out to be, and (b) I don't know if Toogood pleaded guilty or innocent to any of the three charges of scamming that I've mentioned here.

Perhaps Travelers and Gypsies/Romas need to be better educated about the legal system so that they don't enter guilty pleas for things they have not done – and learn how to work within the legal system to obtain effective defense against false charges – rather than take the attitude that they might as well break the law because they think (mistakenly or not) that police officers are profiling them anyway, or that they should "use false identities in order to achieve that right which [others not of their ethnic origin] take so for granted". Two wrongs don't make a right! Just because some police officers and state/federal authorities are corrupt (and, yes, some are, and others are not) is not a valid reason for any Travelers or Romas (or anyone else!) to corrupt themselves as well. It's just an excuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 11:42 AM

Frankly it is not a joke, I think the slap Madalynne gave her daughter is not anywhere near the punch of a Conemara fisherman. I recieved one, a sucker punch, for standing up to segrigation in Boston a few years back... So, not a joke at all. I was hit from behind and knocked unconcious for speaking out against prejudice and injustice and I continue to do so. As to Quaker political agendas, I was not aware we had one? Are you refering to Quakers such as Richard Millhouse Nixon? Herbert Hover? Ben Kingsly? Programed meeting members? Hicksites? Gurneyites? Wilburites? Kenyan Friends? Gee even in any of the groupings I never found a political agenda, other than seeing God in everyone? But, I guess that may be a political agenda when you attempt to stop folks from hurting each other. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 09:32 AM

I wonder if we get more upset about the bad things we'd never do ourselves or the bad things we are worried we might in fact do? With the anger being a kind of protection against that?

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 09:02 AM

"...would slap you a lot harder than Madalynne", Larry?? You can't just downplay what Toogood did to her little girl, now you have to make a joke out of it???? I'm thoroughly disgusted.

You ask if there's a reason you should have known I'm not a Quaker: only because we discussed it on another thread some time ago, but apparently you don't recall. No problem but, again, I'd rather not be called a "Friend" (capital F) and have people think I'm a Quaker when I'm not. I don't share the Quaker political agenda by any means.

But Quaker or no Quaker, I truly am disturbed by your lighthearted treatment of the abuse Toogood inflicted on her daughter, and especially by your little joke about abuse. It turns my stomach.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 07:16 AM

Hi Garg... chuckling... Most of the Gorman's are up in Boston and are not Travellers at all, in fact would slap you a lot harder than Madalynne if you called one a Pavee! They are fishermen from Conamara. If you are interested in Irish music, you most likely have dove into Traveller culture. Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 12:44 AM

Welcome edification....OBU.

It is nice to have a compendium of family names associated with theft, larcency, graft and perversions (child marrages).

Until this thread, I never dove into the culture of this minor sect of society.

I am thankful find that Fitzgerald, Mullagun, Jones, Schmidt and Bartlebe, are not favored amongst your fellow travelers on this orb.

Thanks again,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 09:08 PM

Coyote Breath & Larry - you are both 100% correct in your feelings about shows like Dateline.   If they can't find information to back their story, they drop it. They look for guests who will be arguementative and colorful. The facts are secondary.

Remember the Dateline story where they put explosive charges behind the wheel of a car they were test driving? They were trying to show how unsafe the car is.   I don't know where you buy your cars, but mine rarely come with explosive devices behind the tires.

As I've mentioned in my previous points, I don't like to make accusations without facts. I will say that I spent 12 years working for a well recognized cable news organization in a technical capacity.   It left me with a real poor opinion of most journalists.   I really can't mention names publicly, but I saw things that left me disgusted. I remember one well know "journalist" (it sickens me to call him that) who was trying to prove a point about the time of a murder. One of the pieces of evidence was a cup of ice cream. The lawyers were trying to prove that because the ice cream did not melt the crime couldn't have taken place when it did.   This "journalist" decided to do a live on-air scientific test by placing a cup of ice cream on his desk during the show.   At the end of the show he had a cup of melted ice cream to prove HIS point that the ice cream would melt fast.   What he didn't show or mention was his asking one of the crew to hold the ice cream next to a hot studio light during commercial breaks. Several of us complained to the VP of our news division and the next night this "journalist" had to re-do apologize and re-do the test.

Of course there were some great journalists who I worked with that have a great deal of integrity. I don't want to paint a bad picture of all the media, but the point is, QUESTION what you see. Sometimes the obvious is not what really happens.

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 08:53 PM

Thanks CB! Friday it is... And Sharon... is there a reason I should know you aren't a Quake?!?! I know there are a few Quakers here on Mudcat, a few attenders, can't remember who is who all the time, but, a word on Quaker faith, we don't have a creed so pointing to Faith and Practice, while in my childhood, may be a prelude to being written out of meeting, that kind of thing seldom happens these days, especially when the breach is defending oppressed communities... so friend or Friend, I actually call lots of folks either interchangably... we are kinda like that, inculusive, so I hope you aren't offended by either. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: Blues=Life
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 08:48 PM

I've been trying real hard to stay out of this, but I have to rebut one point. The idea that a slap doesn't do harm ("No, I think they mean a slap... which is why there was not mark") has never been hit with an open hand by someone who knows what they're doing, or is being powered by adreniline (boy, do I need a spell check!) I've been hit by closed fists and open hands, and it makes little difference which one you are hit with when the strike is driven by proper technique or by fury. If you don't believe me, let me hit you just one little open handed slap. I'll even give you a cold beer when you wake up.

Peace,

Blues
(former bouncer and karate practitioner)

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 08:46 PM

Thanks for both the clarification and additional information InOBU! I was struck by the vicious tone of the promo as much by what it said. Your experience with Dateline is all too familiar. They sometimes do us a service by exposing some of the incidents they do. But if they have a "slant", a particular point of view, and what they are coming up with in their research or interviews doesn't support that point of view, they will scrap an "episode" rather than go forward with the true story. I'm pretty sure that it is Friday when this will air and I'll bet that they wil include footage from their past attempt at maligning these people. If I am able to tape it I will PM you.

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 08:31 PM

At present a statistic would be hard to come by, but my experience of meeting a great number of Travellers is that it is likely that fewer Travellers are criminal than the national average in the population as a whole, but that is not a supportable fact, it is purely anicdotal, as is the opinion of the police interviewed in the articals. However, I have had more entre to the general population of Travellers than they have. Travellers do, and I have seen it, isolate members of the community who commit crime, as it is bad for buiness. As to spellings of her name, when I was a paralegal I recvied a memo from my boss correcting the spelling on my name... often. Some folks and cultures don't put a lot on spelling and some do. My father called me Lor, or Lorcan, my mother Lawrence, my school friends, Larry, I use all of those names... lock me up, keep me away from my nephew and niece, call my family and I bizarre and secretive as we speak a few languages at home... oh no, as Sharon points out, I'm not a Traveller, I'm settled... Cheers Larry, Lor, Lorcan, Lollya, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 05:29 PM

Fair enough, Larry, you're right, police are not supposed to pull people over Just Because They Can. But how do you look at someone and say, he's a Traveller, let's pull him over? I mean, you wouldn't know someone was a Traveller unless you KNEW they were a Traveller. Right? It's not as though they look any different from anyone else. Right?

Let me ask this, though. Do the Travellers who are criminals, understand that their bad behavior does a great disservice to their entire community? Do the Travellers who are NOT criminals, believe the criminals should be punished?

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: SharonA
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 05:05 PM

That's a thought, though... If I'm ever arrested, maybe I should give the police my mother's mother's maiden name, and do a little creative spelling with my first name (how about Scherrin?). No, wait, I can't do that, I'm a white Anglo-Saxon, not a member of an ethnic culture!

Sheesh.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: SharonA
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 04:37 PM

So part of this complex naming tradition is that a person gives one name when she's arrested one time and another name when she's arrested another time? (Madelyn Gorman in Texas, Madelyn Toogood in Indiana) (not to mention the different spellings of Madelyn, Madelyne, Madalynne...) Sorry, Larry, but this is at best an abuse of that "tradition" to try to keep authorities from connecting one crime with another committed by the same person. These "traditional" names are being used as aliases.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 04:37 PM

Given that her mother's surname is Gorman, I suspect that it is a maiden name rather than an alias--

As to the comments that things are now as they would be in cases like this, it is because there has been a lot of effort, on the part of many people, to create an awareness of the problems--I know that some of you have trouble believing that this is anything but an advocacy rant on the part of Larry, but it isn't--

Please go back and read the articles from the local paper--you will see that the issue of Traveller discrimination has been a big concern in the community--both judges have made considerable effort to see that things be handled fairly in spite of all the negative national media attention, and in spite of the prosecutor's hotly contested re-election efforts(the judge put off pleadings on the criminal charges til after the election, and said that he wanted the case be settled without the need to go to trial)--

Mercifully, the national media have withdrawn from the situation, but the downside of it is that they are now all here, in the DC area, making a mess of our sniper situation--It is unbelievable how they twist the story around--but that's a story for another day--

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: NicoleC
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 04:19 PM

I think more is being made over the multiple driver's licenses than is really called for. At various points I've have more than one driver's license in multiple states, which is not -- as far as I know -- illegal, although some states require you give up your old license before they give you a new one.

It's also not unusual for a woman to have multiple names on various documents. A married name, a maiden name, a former married name, etc. I can't tell you how many variations my Mom has aquired after 5 marriages!

Nor is it really unusual for native americans to have a cultural name and a public name -- I can see something similar happening here with Travellers, maybe.

The issue is really whether we are talking about one person with documents in multiple names or one person who has multiple *identities* and tries to pass herself off as different people. I don't know if that's the case here or not, although if she isn't keeping her names straight when she talks to the police, it could have quite serious consequences for her. If she is using multiple identities, then it brings up the issue of fraud. If not, it's not really valid criteria in this case, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 04:12 PM

I am on my way out the door, so just quickly, Gormans and Carrolls are the same family, and that is Madalynne's maden name. My wife's driving licence, though we are married for longer than she would want me to tell you, says Gilmore-Otway, her federal ID , her Barr association card says Gilmore, her banking cards say Gilmore, and no, she is not a Traveller. Toogood is Johnney's name and his father's name. I am working on a case involving Vlax Roma, and the father and son have different names, though it is his birth father and he has no other father, as tribal people have a more complex naming tradition than do we, there are articles about this, if you are interested, off the top of my head there is an excellent one in the Internation Journal of Comaritive Law, which if you in fact want to go to the library to read, I will post the site. It is actually a great addition, most of the Articals are about Roma and it is a real page turner. You may also like the piece my my coleague and (I'd say teliphone friend) Prof. Weyrauch, on the subject of people's right to cultural secrets, it is part of one of his submissions under the title the Ethics of Disclosing Secrets. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: SharonA
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 03:59 PM

Sorry, I should have provided my source for that last statement about John Lark. It's from this CBS News article: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/20/national/main522684.shtml Here's an excerpt:

John Toogood is scheduled to be tried Jan. 6 on a theft charge in Kalispell, Montana.... In Whitefish, just north of Kalispell, detective Roger Bergstrom said a felony theft-by-deception warrant was issued for John Toogood in August 1999. Bergstrom said Toogood, whose real name is John Lark, was doing faulty home repair and duping residents, mainly elderly people.

Toogood charged an 83-year-old woman $3,000 to replace part of her cedar shakes roof, the detective said.   Toogood was arrested on the Montana warrant in Casper, Wyo., but promptly posted bail of $20,000 in cash and left. The bail was forfeited when he failed to show up in court, and part of the money was used to repay the Whitefish woman, Bergstrom said.

Police arrested Toogood in Fort Worth, Texas, for bail jumping, and he appeared in Flathead County Justice Court early this year on the theft-by-deception charge, Bergstrom said.   Toogood is scheduled for trial in Flathead County District Court on Jan. 6.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 03:53 PM

Larry and folks:

Let's focus for a moment on what we all agree on. We all agree that it's a good outcome for Martha to be with her grandmother, and for her to remain there temporarily until her mom finishes her courses, gets the anger managed, and can reunite with her daughter. We all agree (I think) that anti-traveller discrimination was NOT a factor in that part of the case. Most of us agree that anti-traveller discrimination DOES exist, and that it MAY end up affecting Madelyne's case.

As I see it, the big difference is that most of us are waiting until the case plays itself out to decide whether anti-traveller discrimination has taken place, rather than assuming in advance that it will take place. As you can see, the "ripping a little girl away from her ethnic group is illegal and immoral" argument turned out to be unnecessary because that did not happen. As I suggested earlier, why not wait and see what else happens before we condemn the legal system? We'll see if the four driver's licenses turns out to be a trumped up charge or not (I'd guess not, Larry guesses so), and whether the decision of the court seems fair or not.

Until then, we agree on most things--apart from the boundaries between legitimate discipline and abuse, which I suspect vary widely from person to person and community to community. Given that, there's little point in arguing about it here.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: SharonA
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 03:50 PM

Oh, yes, and let's not forget that the Toogood surname itself is an alias. Madelyn's husband's real name is John Lark.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: SharonA
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 03:16 PM

Larry: No proof that Madelyne Toogood has an alias??? The two warrants issued for her arrest in Texas list her name as Madelyn Gorman.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 02:46 PM

It has been aleged that Madalynne has and alias and four drivers licences, there has been no proof of that, nor likely will there be. That is one of the issues which will be contested, no doupt, at trial. As to your not supposed to do that stuff, for the few Roma and Travellers who do, Police officers are not supposed to pull folks over and photograph and finger print them for no other reason that ethnicity. In fact, they do this and have done this to nearly ever "Gypsy" I know. In the face of this, a small number of people racialised as "Gypsies" sometimes use false identities in order to achieve that right which you take so for granted. Apparently Madalynne does not do this.
Larry