BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: JudyR
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:06 PM

Sinsull -- Ron Kovic, whose story was told in "Born in the Fourth of July" lives out here in Southern California, and has been telling his story at every large antiwar demonstration(unfortunately, there are so many protesters, it's been hard to get close enough to the speakers to hear, much less the podium.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:59 PM

"If we look at our little planet and put a magnifying glass over the just the last two hundred years, we find there is no other nation on Earth that has *taken* by force and continues to occupy as much land as the United States. But that is a side show."

Bobert, my reponse stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:52 PM

Greg,

I could only respond to the words I saw printed as I do not know you, or you, me. It is unusual to meet people who agree to disagree and I have not been disrespectful of this nor have I the intent. I DO respond when histories or philosophies are presented falsely. Through personal experience, I urge each to to read Powell's statement, in that time and in that place, simply, for his words, without ascribing ulterior motive. Sometimes a man does nothing but bare his soul.

This had to be answered separately from othe questions. No, I do not wilfully misinterpret to play devil's advocate. Too many play that game as it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:30 PM

Reread, Wolfie. You're in too much of a hurry here, my friend, to impress.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:14 PM

Oh, Bobert!

Your first statement is patently ridiculous and without the truths of historical reality! I assumed only the false leaders of the Russian people rewrote history in our lifetime but, apparently, false statements shouted loud enough create truth out of fiction wherever there is the bullhorn of self-justification. You must believe the Soviet hegemony was due to free elections before it balkanized. Or, that the two hundred forty million Russians who have died from the beginning of the century were caused by our bullets. Or, that U.S corporations are the sole cockroaches of our planet.

Nothing is said of the German search for "liebesraum" by force, or the Japanese Rape of Nanking in its forceful attack on Korea, China and Indochina, Malaya, Burma and India, or the Philippenes.

Yes, we are stuck on a relatively brief timeline. The federation of states you attack has only existed for a brief span of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:54 PM

Wolfie-

I think you're (willfully?) misinterpreting my point. Nowhere did I "abjure the warrior's service when called", "call to task the young people ordered to serve" or condone or express approval for "the regimes that have taken millions upon millions of lives in this century". I'm just suggesting a more balanced look at the U.S.'s role in world affairs over the last 170 years or so. Whitewashing the country's military adventurism or pretending it didn't exist isn't the least helpful.

Powell was correct as far as his statement went: the U.S. did not ASK, it simply took. California, Puerto Rico, etc. And it IS disingenuous to suggest that real estate is the only asset of a country worth taking (it is usually the least valuable, and a real pain in the ass to administer)or that annexing territory is the only means by which a country can be exploited. Powell simply talked around the question. This sort of circumlocution isn't helpful, either.

Finally, this isn't about me. What I have seen, what I have or have not done personally over the years you have absolutely no way of knowing- it might surprise you. But it would not make any substantive difference to the points under discussion.

Best, Greg

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:31 PM

Kat, I don't think Colin was being disingenuous in his remark to the Archbishop; nor, that it was a "sound-byte." He had not participated in the uglier side of war in his first tour. On his second he was a young operations officer for the 11th Light Infantry in Qua Ng Ai province and wanted to see the men on the ground by personally delivering soda rations which had been previously been witheld to sell at rear area clubs. On hearing a unit was deeply involved and running out of ammunition, he personally helped change the load to deliver small arms resupply, landing while medevacs would not. This is not the venue for specifics, but he notes an epiphany in chapter six, the first few pages of his book "My American Journey." The man is erudite, a quick thinker, and honest to a fault. His words were not in service to a political end. I am sure he is not happy serving his present master.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:25 PM

There are five Veteran's Homes in Maine offering care from rehab through permanent housing. These services were in danger of fund cuts. Two Service Offices - the ones a veterans goes to for assistance in getting his/her benefits - were scheduled to close (Machias and Portland, I believe). These have been saved through a last minute transfer of $250,000 from the Free Election Fund.

200,000 vets have been waiting an average of six months for their initial health exam. The proposed solution is to cut benefits to high income vets whose health problems are not service related. High income is defined as $30-35,000/year.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:20 PM

I believe we're getting bogged down on just a speck on the time line here. If we look at our little planet and put a magnifying glass over the just the last two hundred years, we find there is no other nation on Earth that has *taken* by force and continues to occupy as much land as the United States. But that is a side show.

Resources, now, are a different matter. The US has done a good job of coralling more than it's share (based on population and land mass) without having to occupy those areas of the world. And they have been smart enough in the past to corral these resources from countries that have gone from one dictator to one attempted democracy to one military coup and back and forth and mix and match. Doesn't matter. What matters is that the US contiunes to get its hands on the bootie, which it seems to always do. Of course, having a big stick makes the job that much easier.

Sure, the US would love to have some other dictator in Iraq. They grew bored with Saddam. Or they'd take a democracy or oligarchy or just about anything. Then the sqabbling would be between *those* folks, the US would look like an "impartial" party and meanwhile, back at the ranch, the oil would flow to the US and it's friends de jour.

Problem is, that the small minority of folks that have concocted this plan, is that it is a bad plan. The reason it will fail is because eventually the American working class will see that, just like the rest of the world's resources being tapped by Boss Hog, his labor is, too. Yeah, their won't be enough country musci, MASCAR or made-in-China American flags to save the greedy. Yes, their little "redistribution of income" scheme will eventually squeeze Joe Sis Pack to the point that he will have had enough. Right now, he's happy.

Check back in in a few years....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 07:31 PM

Shoot, TAB was not a paragraph but submitted an unfinished message with a misspelling.

Greg, you certainly seem versed in the "crimes" of the USMC, though you forgot the atrocious execution/ambush of August Sandino in the 30's. It seems true that since the time of "honor" and "face" wars have increasingly become economically driven. Corporately driven to protect flow of profit-driven resources, if you will. And, the good people who should rule are the same that want nothing to do with the political process, nor can afford it. And yet, you call to task the young people ordered to serve, seeking to serve to improve their lot in life, without tasking the regimes that have taken millions upon millions of lives in this century. Have you seen the mass graves required for hundreds of thousands of unidenitified children? They are larger than soccer fields. THAT was the German siege of Leningrad.

And what did Lepus say, "Pretend I am a soldier" to examine two choices? That is as patently unreal as a man saying, "Pretend I am pregnant." Being a soldier in the throes of close combat are as surreal as a women feeling change, growth within and the fulfillment of birth.

Answers are not that easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 07:18 PM

Kat:

What is you think "we" -- whoever that is -- are going to do with the oil that legally belongs to the nation of Iraq? Pump it out from under them? As far as I know the intention of this country is to buy some of it from them and see to it that the proceeds go into their economy, rather than into glory holes for their fearless leaders.

Am I missing something on this point?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 06:58 PM

Sorry, WolfieVN, but I think Powell is being a bit disingenuous about this time. We may not ask for land, but we do seem to get concessions which could include huge oil deposits, huge contracts for rebuilding what we destroy, and many other tangible and non-tangible things.

I really wish they wouldn't talk in *sound bites*. I wish they would use real rhetoric and drop the inciteful and judgemental BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 06:50 PM

Greg, and in answer to allusions to imperialism or empire by the U.S. there is a brief quote by Colin Powel that is apt:

When in England at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked by the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example of empire building by George Bush. He answered by saying that,

"Over the years, the United States has sent many
of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those that did not return."

It became very quiet in the room.

It is important to use terms wisely (by definition) and in context in an extremeley personal thread such as this. If you abjure the warrior's service when called, did you answer in the service of Peace beyond your front yard? Did you serve in the Peace Corps for two years to match our call from neighbors and peers? Did you serve the poverty-stricken in our own country with building homes or (ugh) picking up trash in an inner city ghetto? I didn't see you in Nicaragua to act as an observer for the first free election. You weren't in Russia when it needed our help in an unstable period of balkanization?

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 04:09 PM

Greg, I think that it is utterly marvelous that you have never in your life done anything to harm another person. That must really free your conscience to be so pure of spirit. I think that most Marines are aware that there episodes in the Corps history that are less than sterling.
How kind of you to remind everyone and, at the same time, try to undermine Steve Nortons pride in the Corps and men with which he served.
You remind me of the definition of an auditor: One who comes out after the battle and bayonets the wounded.
I would wish you a nice day, but I don't think your smug satisfaction would allow you to accept it.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 03:31 PM

Thanks for the clarification Sis - I was mistaken and my apologies for it.

GUEST - It has been documented somewhere, and I apologize for not having a link to it, about those you reference being in direct contact with the North Vietnamese during the Viet Nam War. These "intellectual pacifists" worked hand in hand with the North Vietnamese to keep Americans in a bad light to facilitate an ending to the war.

Oh yeah - just remembered - It's in a book called "Stolen Valor" - written by a Viet Nam Veteran about how the war cost my generation the social conventions normally accorded veterans doing a job for a country. I can't remember the author's name but he related this directly to the poor treatment by the peace folks back home towards the returning veterans and the subsequent poor treatment in the VA hospitals as documented in "Born on the Fourth of July" by Ron Kovic. And by a bunch of us who experienced first hand the deplorable treatment accorded the wounded.

I was unimpressed by the book but he did lay out a case, factual as hell, for the above scenario.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 03:17 PM

"There is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of Western democracy and admiration of totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other but if one looks closely at the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the US. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defense of Western countries." - George Orwell (in 1945), quoted in a letter to The Spectator

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 02:41 PM

Thanks for explaining, WolfieVN, I appreciate it.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 02:37 PM

Sorry, Kat. I was referring to the general comments by Lepus. Your comments about his probable age seem to resolve many questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 01:25 PM

Sorry, Steve, joe clones CANNOT access IPs.

WolfieVN, The apparent rancor with little empathy was confusing.?? Sorry, I am missing the refernce. Can't tell if it is irony or genuine.:-)

I AM sorry I used all caps to make the point about joe clones, but the mistaken ideas of what we can and cannot do gets to me sometimes. My apologies for shouting, Steve, et alia.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 12:46 PM

Members of the Marines are incompletely educated about the history of the Corps. In addition to truly heroic efforts, it has been the perpetrator of some truly shameful actions as the shock troops of U.S. imperialism, historically invading foreign countries upon any pretext or whim of the U.S. Government or U.S economic interests. For example:

CHILE 1891, HAITI 1891, HAWAII 1893, NICARAGUA 1894,CHINA 1894-95, KOREA 1894-96,PANAMA 1895, NICARAGUA 1896,CHINA 1898-1900,PHILIPPINES 1898-1910, CUBA 1898-1902,PUERTO RICO1898, GUAM 1898, NICARAGUA 1898, NICARAGUA 1899, PANAMA 1901-14, HONDURAS 1903, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1903-04, KOREA 1904-05, CUBA 1906-09, NICARAGUA 1907, HONDURAS 1907, PANAMA 1908, NICARAGUA 1910, HONDURAS 1911, CUBA 1912, PANAMA 1912, HONDURAS 1912, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1914, MEXICO 1914-18, HAITI 1914-34,DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1916-24, CUBA 1917, RUSSIA 1918-22, PANAMA 1918-20, HONNDURAS 1919, YUGOSLAVIA 1919, GUATEMALA 1920, HONDURAS 1924-25, PANAMA 1925, CHINA 1927-34, LEBANON l958, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66, & etc & etc. Additional examples pre-date and post-date these.

It would be a real service were they made aware of their entire history- the good AND the bad. They could still be the few and the brave, but possibly a bit less hubristicly proud. t might also provide them with some insight into why much of the world doesn't trust the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 12:46 PM

You didn't offend me Norton - I just thought I might have offended you, and wanted to get it straightened out.

There's quite enough bad feeling around these days. Don't want to add to it by misunderstandings.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 12:33 PM

Thank you Kat for that enlightening perspective. The apparent rancor with little empathy was confusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 12:30 PM

"And if you really want to stalk me, you little creep,"

Getting a tad bit upset there Mr. Lepus?? You've not been threatened in any way shape or form with physical violence. My comment had to do with your statement about others that you most likely have not made to their faces. Yep that's integrity Mr. Lepus. Bad mouthing behind other's backs. VERY productive.

And to obligate yourself for something in a contractual agreement (signed no less) and then backing out because you don't like your choice - more integrity Mr. Lepus. LMAO - You are a sad sack - anything I might do regarding your words would be in a court of law. Under the auspices of libel and slander. Since I've not seen anything of that magnitude yet, but it appeared you were heading there, I figured a minor warning about the limitations of the internet might be in order. Sounds like you are wanting some form of a confrontation?? Tell me EXACTLY where I can find you? Tsk tsk tsk - tell you what Mr. Anderson. I'll do for you the same as I did for the other individual. I'll white you out of my life also. That way I have no need to respond to you and you'll have no need to further get your dander up.

kat - Joe Clones can access the IP - that's all it takes.

Mick - I have two family members over there. The third is a friend's son - I abbreviated the message to eliminate any mention of the original family. Sorry if that caused confusion.

Amos - The message came two days ago and as I said to Mick - sorry about the confusion. I have a Daughter, her husband, and a Brother there.

McGrath - Sorry if I offended you with my short comment. I've always liked the majority of your posts.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:28 AM

Bobert and Mick, unless Lepus has not been entirely truthful, according to various postings of his, he is still, barely, in his twenties, so not exactly coming from the experiences you thought. He looks fairly young in his pix, too.

Lepus, my mistake...I was thinking of someone else who posted links to cat pix, etc.

Norton, for the record JOE CLONES CANNOT ACCESS PERSONAL INFORMATION ABOUT ANY MEMBER.

Thanks...did ya all BREATH?

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:16 AM

Oh yeah, Right. Poor, poor Snortin' Norton- proponent of the 'Vee know vere you live! You haff relatives in Germany?' school of thuggism. He might try coming across as less of a loud-mouthed schoolyard bully. Sixty years old going on thirteen.

Also, he could try explaining to the members of his family overseas that most folks who are against how the troops are being USED by BuShite Junta don't have any animosity towards the soldiers and sailors themselves and hope they all get back in one piece. Perpetuating the "anti-war = anti-troops" fantasy BS only serves to widen the divide.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:26 AM

Lepus, one of the things you should have learned from the Vietnam experience is that one should never paint with a broad brush. When you characterize the young men and women over there as "thug" and "murderers of innocents" you are doing exactly what the Generals do to us to get us to fight. You are dehumanizing those that you oppose. I know any number of folks that are over there. By my count, Steve has three members of his nuclear family there. For him it is very personal. Were I in his position, I would be on you as well. When you speak in these terms, you are no better than those you oppose.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:06 AM

Oh dear Mr norton (with a small n), Oh dear ..............

"............ Did you know that any administrator can locate you right down to your home address and phone number from any of your postings? ............. "

Oh dear oh dear.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:43 AM

"But I'm not really caring whether you personally do or don't capitalize it."

No reason you should, and nor do I care much about that kind of stuff. Remember, we live in different countries - newspapers over here normally seem to use the lower case initial. I wasn't using it as some subtle way of disparaging the troops involved.

Anger directed at soldiers caught up in this kind of situation is misdirected. If there's anger around it ought to be directed at the people who give the orders, especially at the political level. All you can expect from people is that they do what they see as their duty, and for most soldiers that's going to mean following the orders they are given.

Obviously there are times when a soldier has a duty to refuse to obey some kind of orders - My Lai is an example - but it's not to be looked for except in exceptional circumstances, and exceptional people.

Incidentally I saw in the paper today that three British soldiers from 16 Air Assault Brigade in South Iraq have been ordered home for protesting that the war is killing innocent civilians, and are facing court martial - Three British soldiers sent home after protesting at civilian deaths

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:16 AM

Lepus Rex-Do you honestly think that anyone over there WANTS to kill innocents? Do you think they believed that they WOULD be killing innocents when they went over there? Or is it maybe possible that they believed the war would be quick and clean, like all of their commanders, experienced military men, were telling them?

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:54 AM

Lepus Rex:

Hey, my brother, step back for just a minute, if you will and consider the following:

You would make choice #2 from a much different perspective than the twenty-something and teenagers who are in Iraq. Their perspective does not give them the wisdom that someone who lived thru the Vietnam War would have. And your perspective is not one formed in video arcades where violence is sanitized and at the end of the game no one is really dead or injured and every one goes home at night.

When you couple that to the excellent PR work the Bush machine has pumped out ("with us or against us", "evil dictator", "gassed his own people", "mushroon cloud over our head", etc, etc.) and the bold satements that this war was just going to be a mop up operation, these kids really haven't been put in a position to make choices.

And many of these kids enrolled in the military as a way to get out of the ghetto. They were highly recruited in their impressionable years in high school and they never thought that anyopne would come along and get the US into a ground war. Look at the high percentage of black folks and minorities and you'll see what I mean. They just got caught up in some funky sh*t.

So, my friend, I would hope that you would try to see the trap in which these kids got caught and not impose your wisdom and life's experiences on these kids.

The blame falls squarely on those of our generation.

Peace,

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:41 AM

http://www.chp.ca/CHP-Communique/communique_10_12.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 12:29 AM

Dang - a self-aware asshole! That's one for the evolutionary cosmology books!

Thanks, Will, for speaking up plain.

I would submit that this war has highly immoral beginnings, but it also has some very moral vectors to it. I think the common thread of those who support it -- those with any discrimination -- is the plain observation that we are facing the meanest son of a botch in the family of nations and th eworst facist dictator since Hitler. I know, there is an element of demonizing in this description, but they are also traits that can be substantiated with facts.

Because we began it badly is no reason to end it badly.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:40 PM

Oh, Christ, aren't I the popular subject. Let's see...

Forum Lurker, Kat, Carol,, et al: Yeah, you're right. There are serious consequences for refusing to fight. But it is still a choice, made by the soldier. Let's pretend for a moment that I am a soldier. I'm informed that tomorrow, I'll be sent to Iraq, an illegal war that I strongly oppose, to say the least. In my mind, I have two choices:

1. Follow the orders of my superiors, fullfilling the promise I made to my country.

or...

2. Tell my superiors that I refuse to fight, and accept my punishment.

I would choose #2. I would rather spend the rest of my fucking life in prison than become a goon, a monster, in a military hit-squad. I would rather die than kill innocents. At least I would die with my fucking humanity intact, and at least those who survived me would be able to say that I wasn't a murderer. If you think this makes me "disingenuous," "brainless," or whatever, fine. You're entitled to your opinions. I disagree.

And despite having been raised in an extremely patriotic family, I just don't understand this bizarre compulsion to mindlessy, unquestioningly, "support the troops?" Support the troops, WHY? If "the troops" are doing bad things in our names, why support that? I support our troops in Bosnia & Herzegovina, and I support our troops in Kosova. I would support our troops in a real, legal war against a real threat. This is not that war, and these war criminals do not deserve our support.

Troll: I'm not trying to "shock" anyone. I'm expressing how I feel, in the language that comes naturally to me. As a fellow asshole, I'd think you would understand.

And Norton1... whatever. Your lightly veiled threats of physical violence and rambling, incoherent posts are only making me pity you. You seem to be either insane, senile, or both, and you need some professional help.

And if you really want to stalk me, you little creep, knock yourself out. Both my name (Will Anderson) and place of residence (Minnesota) are public knowledge, and can be found in many of my posts over the years, along with other juicy bits of personal information. My picture is available here, and will surely help you to track me down, like a dog, as they say. I have a shaved head these days, but otherwise I look the same. In fact, if you really want to hunt me down and prove to me what a violent badass you are, find that cookie, PM me, and I'll tell you EXACTLY where you can find me.

---Lepus Rex

PS Kat: I didn't go anywhere for a few months... I've posted regularly here, at least several times a month, since May, 2000. And I've always been an asshole. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:33 PM

Let's settle down.

1. A marine -- lower case m -- is any member of a land force carried on ships.

A Marine -- upper case -- is a member - whether active or not -- of the United States Marine Corps, an association of military fighters who have a reputation unrivalled on the planet for resourcefulness, effectiveness, a disdain for bureaucracy, courage and perseverance and, yes, deadliness in battle.

2. Steve -- the email from your son is heartwarming, but I am moved to ask when it was sent. It doesn't make any difference, exactly -- from a military point of view, the forces deployed in Iraq are pulling off a pretty amazing job. Now me, I hate being at war; but I can still say that I am awe struck by the courage and effectiveness of those who do the dirty work once it starts. I won't pretend ther eis no war, nor that there is no cause for one.

I only hope that in the overall net effect, their ideals will be realized; because they are paying a huge price to make the world better, according to their lights, and I would weep to see them get gypped by post-war tapdancing at home or internationally. I found it hopeful that the Senate rejected the VA cuts but I think we need to go a bit further than that.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:00 PM

Hey Steve. I think that debate would be a very interesting one to have over a couple of beers when you're under less stress than you are right now. Maybe some day.

I used to be married to a Vietnam Vet. And I was more recently in a significant relationship with a Vietnam Vet. I've seen what the experience of fighting in a war can do to a person. And I have a nineteen year old son. That, combined with what I saw happening during the Vietnam War; the lies we were fed then, and the lies we're being fed now, might be a part of what gives me my patience and insistence.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:59 PM

Bob - I'm not much in the mood to cater to this. I said nothing about your prayers being "outlandish" - I said that your behavior is - and as one of the folks who has "baited you" a time or two I'll pass on any formal request for assistance. You do what you want to - like I said earlier - I'll take care of my own with my own.

And ask any Marine if the "M" is capitalized. Your dictionary not withstanding - as a Marine I'll say that it is my opinion that it is ALWAYS capitalized. But I'm not really caring whether you personally do or don't capitalize it.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:56 PM

Lepus was gone for a few months and it seems, since his return, that he has had a hair-trigger temper. I think I remmeber when he used to post half-way decent remarks and always a link to pix of his beautiful cats. Don't know what has changed, but it sure doesn't excuse such rudeness.

I think it would be good for all of us to take a deep breath and try to remember to be extra-patient with one another. We are all in tumultous times, with a lot of fear-mongering rhetoric, full of dire warnings, ratcheting up our emotions. That has been going on for over a year. So, we are all a bit frazzled. At heart, we have our music, which brought us together, so let's try to remember that and give each other a little breathing space, okay? Of, course, this is just a suggestion, but I will try to take my own advice, starting right now...


~~breath in~~~ ~~breath out~~
ahhhh...

Thanks ya'll,

luvyakat

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:55 PM

SINSULL, your first 2 articles refer to a problem about 4 years ago in which a research program wasn't keeping the proper documentation. The problem was serious, but the investigation revealed that it was strictly an issue of not obtaining the proper permissions in the proper form, not that any "experiments" actually took place, and there was no impact on proper patient care. The next 2 are from an individual's website, and he clearly has personal issues with the VA.

One of the VA's strongest critics and most persistent watchdogs is the DAV.
Here is what they had to say about VA health care last year. My own experience (as administrative staff rather than as a patient) is that medical providers, especially physicians, won't work for what the VA can pay...typically about $100,000-$120,000 per year for a doctor. The national nursing shortage isn't helping, nor is the fact that the general physical condition of many VA patients means they need more care than the typical American.   

I'm not sure about closing VA facilities in Maine. There is only one hospital in the state, at Togus (Augusta). It is very small and dates back to the Civil War. This will get you information of that VA and others in Maine and New England.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:52 PM

"I also read in our local paper that our VA hospital has over 400 veterans waiting to see a primary care physician because this VA hospital has been unable to hire another doctor."

I wanted to clarify this - simply because the Veteran does not have a primary care provider does not mean the Veteran is not able to be seen. A walk-in appointment is usually available within 1-3 days. You just won't see the same Doc each time - but your file is still the same. And for emergencies the Veteran only needs to present at the ER for immediate care.

There is a lot of discussion about the VA and who they are mandated to see. It is the opinion of many that those who served in peacetime and have no service connected injuries should not be the responsibility of the VA. I tend to agree. But for those who served in wartime, and this has come to pass, they should receive care at the VA if they need it. Current rules state that troops serving in a hostile environment will be eligible to receive all of their health care free, for the first two years after release from active duty, from the VA.

This should accomplish a couple of things. First it will allow the VA to document all reported problems from those who were there. Second it will provide the clinical evidence for claims of the Veterans and expedite an abnormally slow process (that being claims).

The VA has very few facilities that are not able to meet the current needs. But President Bush is not a very good advocate for the Veteran. He is a good commander, in my opinion, but has not done well by the Veteran. Hopefully continued lobbying will suffice to rectify this. The President is creating a massive voting block and they will have something to say about their care.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:47 PM

Steve: My prayers for your family are *not* "outlandish". There are no "outlandish" prayers if they are for the safety and well being of those of which we pray. No smallprint here, my friend.

Bob(ert)

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:25 PM

Forum Lurker - Thank you - apology accepted - Lepus must have intelligence for it to be attacked. And I'd suggest that he would not be willing to say what he said to a 60 year old former Marine either. I'd be willing to say that he would not say that to any service person or parent with a child in the Sand box. Lepus is simply a moronic jerk that loves to argue and fight - I'm in the mood to oblige him.

As far as an innuendo about privacy - his IP, accessable by the moderators and Joe Clones, would provide his home address and phone number in about 5 minutes. If the PM he sent me were threatening in the specific I could file a complaint with them and they could subpoena the information to file charges against him. So yes - it is a warning to everyone - be careful what you say. I'm not always the most polite either. But I daresay I've not threatened anyone.

CarolC - For your theory to be plausible we would have had to lose the War of Independence. So as my statement is based in reality - sorry friend - although I admire your patience and insistence. I also admire your cause.

Susan - It is me - I just got tired of Bobert's crap and arguing - he has an agenda that I respect. Peace. But his outlandish behavior leaves me not wanting his, or anyone elses, prayers that are not in harmony with success for the Americans over there (and my Daughter is an American). I've also got a brother up North with the Kurds. And my Daughter's husband is in the 4th Infantry Division that is just coming into Iraq to spearhead the drive to Bahgdad.


And for the rest - here is another e-mail from another Marine - Lepus - your friends over there are dying by the hundreds. Maybe they need your vitrioloc BS to help the cause? You could volunteer to be a shield - I hear that the Iraqi Ministry of Defense needs a few.



This is from an email that my son Jon (Marine--Somewhere in Iraq) sent to his wife -- and she forwarded it on to me.

I can't believe we have an internet set up out here in the field. The guys are lining up for probably a one time shot, but I hope it lasts. The only news we get here is from the BBC and they certainly are an arrogant and negative bunch. The press makes it look like we are getting ambushed at every turn and that we are at a standstill. Get the word out that this is BS because we are killing Saddam's troops by the hundreds and they are no match for us at all.

I've had one Marine get shot in the ankle but everyone else in the Company are OK. Let everyone know that we are in high spirits and we watch each others back here and we are taking care of business the
Marine way. I don't know exactly what the news agencies are saying back home about the war and I don't really care. I just want you to know the truth. We are fighting a bunch of militia, loyal to
Saddam, who wear civilian clothes, execute civilians and are guilty of all the other atrocities you may have heard about. But they are not slowing us down as we smash through any resistance every step of the way.

Again, we are all well and even though we don't particularly care what the press says, we hope the American people are behind us.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:00 PM

Norton1-I'm sorry. My words were unwarranted.

Troll-I don't think Lepus would say that to a room full of Marines, either. I just don't look down on him that much. There's a fine line between cowardice and prudence, and it's hard to tell which side that falls on. I think Lepus is being rather impolite and bull-headed, and I would have no problem if Steve had attacked his intelligence for thinking that each and every soldier is personally responsible for the war. Honestly, I didn't know that Steve had a daughter in Iraq; my brain missed the connection. I'm not sure that his attack was warranted, no matter how brainless Lepus was being.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:27 PM

America's streets are filled with homeless Vets. Yeah, in the time of war, there's no one more important but once the war is over the focus turns away. Sure, there are some good VA hospitals. When I was still in social work, the McGuire Hospital in Richmond was good. But for every good one there's a bad one, or a bad policy on following up on the effects of DU's and it's realtaionship to Gulf War Syndrome.

Like I said, I hope this time will be different, but the government, irregardless of the party in power, has a bad track record. And in these times with an economy that is shakey and an adminsitration not given toward spending money on the needs of the working and lower classes, from which our serive folk come, its a long shot that things will improve when these Vets come home...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:23 PM

Hang on Steve. Don't let it throw you.
Lepus does it for shock value. He's been doing it ever since he came on the Forum. It doesn't seem to matter what the subject is, he has an offensive remark primed and waiting.
Forum Lurker, take a hike. Norton1 is exactly correct. I, too, doubt that Lepus would dare make his remarks personally to the people he so maligns.
As for pointing out that the Internet is not all that annonymous, it's simply a little reminder to everyone to be sensitive and polite when we communicate on Forums like this one. There are people who are not as civilized as we. ('Spaw excepted)
Steve has a child over there right now. How would YOU react under those circumstances to a post like Lepus'?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:12 PM

Clicked too soon. Sorry.

Above are some articles on the current state of veteran's care in the US. In Maine, not only are VA hospitals scheduled to close but also Help Centers which offer assistance to vets applying for benefits. How does a vet without money or a car get to a center for assistance in a state with almost no public transportation?

"Born On The Fourth Of July" told the story of a Viet Nam vet's experiences upon his return to the US as a paraplegic. True story although I don't doubt that Hollywood had a hand in it.

I do know that drugs and mental illness plague the men who returned. Many of them ended up on the streets when the Reagan Administration emptied the asylums of those deemed capable of fending for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:04 PM

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/veteransresearch990419.html
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9904/14/va.ethics/
http://www.mississippiwebsite.com/vahospitals.htm
http://www.mississippiwebsite.com/va_article.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 08:55 PM

Is it just me, or does Guest, Norton1 sound a little different from the Norton1 who recently posted about his just-deployed daughter and asked that we keep her in our thoughts?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 08:51 PM

Kat:

Can't put my finger on the printed source but I have heard on two seperate occasions on news broadcasts that the $74.9B was for the first month.

Maybe someone else can shine some light on this.

Remember the earlier estimates of up to $200B from a source who no longed works in the Bush administration for divulging it?

Forum Lurker:

Whereas I tend to agree with you most of the time, in these most difficult times, we gotta have the patience with these folks who have somehow gotten control of the agendas. Stick with the issues and leave the rest alone. Sure, their side has a disporportionate number of knotheads, but they have hyjacked the deal and the only way we're gonna get it back is to not fall into their traps. I speak from experience, my friend, for they have baited me on an occasion. Chill, you're too smart slingin' mud... But keep on firing on values, morality, differences of idealogies. Okay? We need ya'!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Sam Adams
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 08:30 PM

It's funny how many messages I've seen from military people to the effect that "we're defending DEMOCRACY... so those of who you don't agree with us better sit down, shut up, love America or leave it, etc..."

Don't they see the contradiction?

"You have the right to free speech, so long as you're not actually stupid enough to use it." -- The Clash

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 08:28 PM

And not a one of you would be able to say what you are right now without the ancesters of these men and women doing what they thought was correct back in the 1700s.

This is simply not true. There is no reason to imagine that our rights would be any different than what the people of Canada enjoy if the people of the US hadn't fought the revolution back in the 1700s, and they enjoy pretty much the same freedoms as we do. Although if we were Canadians, I tend to doubt that we would be recieving threats of physical violence visited upon us for speaking our minds as you have done with Lepus Rex (insensitive as his posts are). I know you're under a lot of emotional stress right now, Steve, but that post was not worthy of you.

I know that you participated in the movement to stop the Vietnam War. You must have had a reason for doing that.

This fight in Iraq could be the actual beginning of Iraqi independance for all you Einstein's know.

I hope you're right.