BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 05:15 PM

Good. ;-) You know, the reason I come back to this thread so much is, it's just my way of having fun. I enjoy discussing this particular subject, because I find it quite interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM

"The biggest overall myth that humanity is suffering from right now is the myth that it is necessary to have an ever-expanding economy in order to have a successful society."


                  Well, Little Hawk, I can certainly agree with you on this one, completely.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:37 PM

Yes.

There are also people addicted to present day myths and superstitions (both religiously speaking and otherwise). It's really quite a complex situation. One person's political myths, for example, are another person's political gospel.

Many Americans, for example, have long held a Messianic view of the American Way and the role of America in altering other cultures into its own image. Their government has promoted that view for generations and used it to advance a military-economic strategy which mostly involves invading and financially dominating other cultures. The Nazis held a similar Messianic view of their political system, as did the Stalinists and the Maoists. I regard those political myths as having been considerably more dangerous and destructive in the last hundred years than religion has been, though organized religion has also caused a good deal of strife and destruction, unquestionably.

The biggest overall myth that humanity is suffering from right now is the myth that it is necessary to have an ever-expanding economy in order to have a successful society. That is the maddest, stupides, possibly the most self-destructive myth ever perpetrated yet, and it is threatening all life on the planet. Why is it being done? To make money. Period. Just for more money.

Nature does not recognize or respect money, because it's not real. Money is a totally abstract invention. It's just an idea. Nature...the living planet itself...will eventually turn upon and destroy a people who are so stupid as to attack their own environment relentlessly in the pursuit of more money.

Now, I put it to you that that is a far bigger problem than organized religion ever was or ever will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:23 PM

"(And that is why I suggest not blindly attacking religious people...or people of any general category...as if they were all the same. They're not.)"


             Of course there are people who are addicted to ancient superstitions, and people who are not addicted to ancient superstitions, so you can catagorize them that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 12:46 PM

Which God indeed? ;-) That's always the question, isn't it? There are a million different versions.

But yes, I think that God is definitely pro-choice and always has been, but that's just my personal view of it, you understand. The Pope can think whatever he wants, I don't care about that. I don't think of "God" as messing in human affairs...just providing the entire field of play, as it were, and the basic rules and parameters of the game, the things that must be dealt with and the things that can't be avoided, such as...

- the free will of others
- a great variety of types and attitudes
- gravity
- birth and childhood
- eventual aging and death
- entropy
- atomic structures
- light
- physical substance
- different forms of energy
- gender (in some, not all, forms of life)
- conscious awareness
- the various physical limitations we all must deal with, we who have physical bodies at present...

and so on...

Those aren't a matter of choice. You simply have to play with the hand you've been dealt. But after that...you are totally free to choose how you play the game. The moves are yours to make freely.

That's freedom of will, and that makes God pro-choice. God isn't the problem in life, you see. Not at all. ;-) Other people are the problem!!! Or so it seems....(?)

The real truth that matters, though, may be only this: the one really significant problem you will ever face in life is your own personal attitude toward the experience...and toward others.

(And that is why I suggest not blindly attacking religious people...or people of any general category...as if they were all the same. They're not.)

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:32 AM

"Yes, but L.H. also seems to agree with me that God is pro choice"

But, which God do you refer to?

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: bald headed step child
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:58 AM

Yes, but L.H. also seems to agree with me that God is pro choice.

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:40 PM

Little Hawk's list of historical causes for war:

"a shortage of arable land

a shortage of drinkable water

poverty

overpopulation

starvation

oppressive political regimes and philosophies

xenophobia, tribalism, and nationalism

greed for material gain at someone else's expense

major financial and trade opportunities to be secured by war

entangling alliances (which are based on common interests)"

Yikes. Not one of those conditions, worldwide, has been eliminated or even improved. In fact, the first six in the list are worse today and growing more so, every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:31 PM

Another reason to be a loyal RC:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090103/hl_afp/vaticanreligioncontraception_090103212901

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:59 PM

If I had to choose just one, I'd single out tribalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:12 PM

Spaw? Have you been told today? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:09 PM

Yes, Don, but if as God you were to abolish religion...or abolish anything else...you would be depriving many people the use of their free will, thus defeating the entire exercise of life, as it were.

Think of it this way. There is no use in creating a gigantic interactive computer game, for example, based on a host of people creatively using their individual free will (within the rules and limitations of the game, naturally) if the designer of the game steps in frequently during online gameplay and forces some of the players to make only the specific moves he approves of! Such a game would hardly be worth playing, would it?

We either have free will or we don't, and my contention is that we have it. Therein lies the challenge of life. If we were not permitted to choose freely and to make our own mistakes, we would never learn anything.

In any case, the major causes of most modern (and even most ancient) conflicts have been:

a shortage of arable land

a shortage of drinkable water

poverty

overpopulation

starvation

oppressive political regimes and philosophies

xenophobia, tribalism, and nationalism

greed for material gain at someone else's expense

major financial and trade opportunities to be secured by war

entangling alliances (which are based on common interests)

Religion is often the excuse for fighting, but it is seldom the root cause of a conflict. The root cause is usually financial when you get to the bottom of it. Money drives the system...and it drove the old religious systems in Europe and Asia too, because only with large amounts of money can you maintain and equip large armies.

People who ignore all this so they can just beat on their favorite hobby horse of blaming religion for the world's troubles remind me of someone who complains about germs in the kitchen while ignoring the fact that the roof is leaking and the furnace is not working. It's a form of tunnel vision, driven not by logic but by a grudge...or a sense of superiority.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:01 PM

Rats.............See? Just another possible proof that there is no god. Ironic its Rigs who fucked me up acting as "god's tool," if you will.

I've always said you were a real tool Rigs................

Spaw {;<))

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:58 PM

100

Okay..... I'm done for tonite..........swear to god........................Continue along now....

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:57 PM

"That horse is already dead!"

                And it was a dark horse indeed!




    "IF I WERE GOD, I'D ABOLISH RELIGION!!"

    "That would remove the major cause of mayhem, mutilation, and murder, from the face of the earth."


                      I agree completely, Don!

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:57 PM

Dear god,

Let this work.....last time tonight......Swear to god!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:57 PM

Swear to god......I'm gonna' do it!!!!

I am!!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Haruo
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:36 PM

A major cause, maybe. My guess is there are at least two or three others of the same order of magnitude, as causes. Religion looks like a greater cause than it is because it is waved as camouflage by so many actually motivated by other causes, such as greed.

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:21 PM

IF I WERE GOD, I'D ABOLISH RELIGION!!

That would remove the major cause of mayhem, mutilation, and murder, from the face of the earth.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:13 PM

I think the Bringer of Light is somebody else.

I don't think 'So help me god' is an oath. It's more of a perfunctory prayer. (says the atheist)

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:11 PM

Excellent. In other words, just say a simple "Yes" or "No", don't embroider it with a lot of grandiose declarations and solemn oaths sworn on this or that, because the insincere do tend toward grandiosity, don't they, and vice versa...

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Haruo
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:03 PM

Uncle DaveO wrote

What's prohibited in the Bible is swearing FALSE oaths, that is, calling on God to witness as truth what one knows to be false, or that one doesn't intend to perform.

but the previous poster (Steve Shaw) who mentioned Jesus in passing

Even Jesus thought that saying yes or no should be good enough for anybody.

was correct, assuming Uncle Dave's Bible contains Matthew's Gospel, where in chapter 5 verses 34-37 Jesus is quoted as saying, "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (That's the somewhat archaic King James Version; the less archaic New International Version translates "         But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.")

FWIWWAAL...

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:21 PM

That horse is already dead!

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:19 PM

So darkness it is, obviously!

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:24 PM

On the other hand, darkness isn't something in itself. It's just an absence of light.

Hmmm.

Perhaps your original point was entirely correct, GfS. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:18 PM

I see your point. ;-) Still, God is both the Alpha and the Omega, right? So can't God be both the darkness and the light? I would figure so.

I don't envision a Universe that is divided into "God" and "not-God", because that just doesn't make sense to me. I think that all of it is God.

I don't think God's "over there somewhere" (at a distance) either. I think God is simultaneously existing everywhere. That would be both outside and within oneself. Such a God, needless to say, is not confined within just one visible figure or manifestation.

The only possible means of separation from such a God is simply a lack of awareness on one's own part...and that is the normal human condition: a lack of awareness (to one extent or another). A fully enlightened human is simply a human who has reached full awareness.

Science has determined that we use only a small percentage of our total brain capacity. What would happen if we used all of it? We would, I think, become extraordinary beings, and many very interesting changes would occur.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:08 AM

Little Hawk, If you met God in a dark alley, I doubt the alley would still be dark...you think??

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:32 PM

Oh, that hardline Republican version of God is a nasty one, all right! ;-) I would not want to meet "Him" in a dark alley, that's for sure.

If I was going to believe in a God that was a humanoid figure of some kind, then I would choose to have a female God who looks kind of like I imagine Joan of Arc...or Lady Arwen from Lord of the Rings. Much nicer in every way. She would deliver some tough lectures from time to time if necessary, but no one would be cast into any kind of a hell, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:19 PM

By the way, thanks LH. I'd misread your meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:18 PM

"...I don't think that born-again Republican God will be attending this inauguration.:


                      You think Rick Warren will show up without him?

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 02:22 PM

Well, usually I shrink anything larger than an <h3> headline font (as gargoyle knows), but guess I'll let this go because I guess there's some kind of point here....

I guess I'd say I'm uncomfortable with the use of the name of God in official documents and ceremonies, because the God referred to usually seems to be very closely allied with the Republican Party. I have a very firm belief in God, but not THAT God.

But as Jeri said so succinctly, it's Obama's inauguration and he should be allowed to do what he wants to to - including asking Rev. Rick Warren to give the invocation. And somehow I don't think that born-again Republican God will be attending this inauguration.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 02:10 PM

Isn't it remarkable how arguments make much so more sense when you put them in big type?

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Bee
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:39 PM

"Yeah, Bee, but you don't know exactly what Obama's concept of "God" is, do you? It might be quite different from what you imagine. Maybe even Obama is not entirely clear what his concept of "God" is, after all. (Most people are a bit unsure about the exact nature of the God they believe in...)
" - LH

Did I suggest otherwise? In terms of oath-taking, it doesn't matter (to me) what Obama's concept of his god is, so long as he believes invoking that god makes his promises more durable or more dangerous to break. Although I still think a person's word should be enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:30 PM

I am quite sure that wars are not caused by Gods, but by cartoon characters: Bullwinkle, Mickey, Donald, Goofy, the South Park kids, Rocky, and Miss Piggy.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:08 PM

Yeah, Bee, but you don't know exactly what Obama's concept of "God" is, do you? It might be quite different from what you imagine. Maybe even Obama is not entirely clear what his concept of "God" is, after all. (Most people are a bit unsure about the exact nature of the God they believe in...)

Rig - Well, what I meant was this:

Cultural racism - People of basically the same overall racial stock, such as the Scots and the English...or the English and the French...or the Iroquois and the Hurons...or the North and South in the Civil War...or the Japanese and the Chinese...attempt to destroy each other over their petty cultural differences.

Genetic racism - Blacks and Whites...or Asians and Europeans...or Whites and Amerindians...attempt to destroy each other over differences in basic racial type, which I think are differences that could be described as genetic in nature.

Every conflict seems to involve plenty of cultural racism, but a few also involve a specific form of racism based purely on race itself. If so, it will also be accompanied by the usual forms of cultural racism.

It all amounts to one simple, primitive, dumbass train of thought that is held in the mind of a moron: "They're different from us. That's really disturbing to me. Let's kill them."

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Bee
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:46 AM

It could be argued that men also cause/d (invented) religions, therefore should never be permitted to blame any atrocity on the gods, time honoured though that excuse may be.

Obama claims belief and perhaps feels that an oath including his god is the strongest indication of his firm intent to do his best. I'd be satisfied with a promise made on his own honour to use common sense and take good advice (and recognize such) in his endeavours.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:16 AM

LH - Can you shed any light on genetic racism? Cultural I can understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 12:43 AM

Thanks. I figured you'd agree with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 12:34 AM

I agree with your post, Little Hawk..

From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 10:53 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 12:18 AM

Whether the "gods" were real or not, Rig, it's hardly fair to blame them for the wars started by people in their name(s), is it? ;-)

Imagine being a perfectly innocent and kindly god, wanting everyone to be prosperous and happy, and watching in disgust as people all over the place started wars and killed other people in your name! It would make the job hardly worth having on some days...

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:35 PM

Well, at least it doesn't screw up the scansion of the oath, the way that "under God" did to the Pledge of Allegiance.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 09:02 PM

So help me god, or if not, Moi... might be fittin'. It's the kind of oath Miss Piggy would make. Obama, being a more well-read and gracious sort, is likely to amicably leave the phrase is there.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 08:34 PM

Correct, skipy, religion (or sometimes official atheism's attack on religion) has always been used to drive war forward. That's not the fault of religion itself, however, nor is it the fault of atheism itself, it's the fault of extremely ambitious and ruthless men in government and media who are quick to use anything and everything they can to drive a war forward...for their own gain.

So what do they use? Whatever will work. They use...

Patriotism

Fear of other cultures

Genetic Racism

Cultural racism

The excuse that "they were going to attack us someday, so we'll attack them first"

False flag "attacks" (that didn't really happen or were not perpetrated by the other country that is being attacked)

ecomomic incentives -there's much money to be made in wartime

Political theories - such as Naziism, Communism, the "Free World", Fascism, Maoism, etc

Religion (you have already focused on that, so I hardly need to elaborate)

Past grievances - They did this horrible thing then. Therefore they deserve to be attacked by us now.

Rumors of theoretical threats (like Saddam's nonexistent WMDs)

Declarations of altruistic intent - the USA pretended it was going to war with Spain in 1898 to help Cubans! What a grand pretense. They didn't do it to help Cubans at all, they did it because Cuba and the Phillipines were very rich islands in Spanish possession, full of economic gains to be made if the USA could get them, plus it would give the rapidly expanding American fleet some very handy major bases in both the Caribbean and the Pacific, thus making the USA for the first time a global power...and Spain was a doddering, weak old military power which couldn't possibly win such a war. So the US government convinced its public that it was going to war for altruistic reasons, and to avenge the Maine (which may have indeed been sunk by someone, but I highly doubt it was the Spanish...they were desperate to avoid a war with the USA).

There was no religious reason behind that war was there? Nope. Just the usual reasons of economic, territorial, and strategic gain for the aggressor.

The sinking of the Maine may have been a "false flag" attack accomplished by American agents. It may have been done by Cuban revolutionaries to trigger American intervention on their side. It may have been an accident, due to spontaneous combustion in the coal stores (such things happened to warships on quite a number of occasions back then, and similar things even happened in WWII...the Japanese lost a major battleship to an internal explosion of unknown cause while it was sitting peacefully at anchor one day in 1943). At any rate...I doubt that the Spanish did it.

Religion didn't cause that war. But I bet almost every pulpit in America backed it vociferously. They didn't do so because religion started the war, though, they did so because they probably believed the US government propaganda and were in a frenzy of patriotic fervor.

It's governments who start wars, and they do it for their own gain.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 08:24 PM

"Your assorted "gods" are responsible for most if not all wars! Also millions, yes millions of deaths!"


                      I agree, of course the gods didn't start the wars, because they're not real, but it's all done in their name, over and over and over and...

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: skipy
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 07:50 PM

Correct Little Hawk, men cause war not religion, but religion has ALWAYS been used to drive war fwd. By the way, just for the record, I don't have an agenda, just the right to have my own thoughts which I don't push onto anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 06:57 PM

No, skipy, you are mistaken. What is responsible for most wars is hunger for land, money, and resources...domination of commercial markets...that sort of thing. It all comes down to money and power. People start wars to acquire more money and power. Religion is just a handy superficial propaganda thing that they use to motivate the fighters (if the fighters happen to be religiously inclined).

For example: The Nazis made much use of Christian religious messages to inspire their troops, reminding them frequently that the Soviets were "godless Communists". This had a good deal of effect in motivating German soldiers to kill lots of Russians and to fear them also, but religion was not the essential force behind Naziism. The essential force behind Naziism was a German hunger for physical expansion of the German state and its valuable holdings and power in the world.

I could list many more examples, but why bother? I doubt you'd be inclined to listen, as it wouldn't serve your specific agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: skipy
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 06:47 PM

Your assorted "gods" are responsible for most if not all wars! Also millions, yes millions of deaths! I would rather follow a leader who takes it upon him/her self to to shoulder the burden of leadership than one who has a "god" to fall back on & share the blame!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 06:43 PM

Ha! I love your sense of humor, man.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 06:28 PM

Yeah, but I'm already tired of this thread.........no shit, I really am............swear to god!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 04:01 PM

Oh, quite possibly. It's fun to throw the bait in the water and watch the sharks gather. ;-)